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    A Conservative Futurist and a Supply-Side Liberal Walk Into a Podcast …

    enMay 21, 2024

    Podcast Summary

    • A shift from the Jetson's vision of the futureThe 1970s marked a pivotal decade that led to a slower pace of economic growth and productivity, despite technological advancements, due to political and social factors.

      The world we live in today, which is home to a toddler born in the year George Jetson was supposed to be born (2022), does not align with the futuristic vision of the 1960s, particularly in terms of economic growth and technological advancement. This shift can be traced back to the 1970s, a pivotal decade marked by rising economic inequality, the environmental movement, and a backlash against certain forms of growth and technology. The slowdown in productivity growth, which was a significant concern for economists, could have led to a much larger US economy and higher median household income if it had continued at the same pace. This downshift in productivity growth was expected to be driven by technological progress, and the Jetsons-esque technological advancements were not just imagined in cartoons and films but were also anticipated by experts, technologists, CEOs, and economists. However, it's essential to understand the political and social factors that led to this shift, as repeating the same mistakes could hinder future growth.

    • Factors contributing to the economic slowdown in the 1970sThe economic slowdown in the 1970s was caused by a decline in infrastructure spending, budget deficits, and a shift towards regulation and away from research and development, influenced by the end of the Cold War and growing environmental concerns.

      The economic slowdown in the 1970s was likely due to a combination of factors, including a decline in infrastructure spending, budget deficits, and a shift in priorities towards regulation and away from science, research, and development. This shift was influenced by the end of the Cold War and the space race, as well as growing concerns about the environment and the impact of economic growth. The lack of a holistic effort to address these issues and continue the productivity growth of the 1960s contributed to the economic stagnation of the 1970s.

    • Environmental regulations have made development projects more expensive and harder to buildEnvironmental laws passed in the 1970s have led to increased regulatory burden, making it difficult to build infrastructure projects and slowing down productivity growth

      The environmental legislation passed in the 1970s, such as the National Environmental Policy Act, Endangered Species Act, and Clean Air and Water Acts, have had a significant impact on development projects, making them more expensive and harder to build. This was not the initial intention of the legislation, which was seen as a good and necessary step to protect the environment. However, the increasing regulatory regime made it difficult to build large infrastructure projects, such as nuclear power plants and dams, and even small projects like transmission lines and factories. This has led to a slowdown in productivity growth and a lack of investment in certain areas, such as nuclear energy. Despite the benefits of cleaner air and water, the regulatory burden has made it challenging for the economy to keep up with the pace of technological progress.

    • Productivity Slowdown: Not Just a US ProblemThe productivity slowdown was a complex issue with both global and domestic causes, affecting various countries despite differing policy frameworks.

      While it's clear that the environmental and regulatory policies of the 1970s made it harder to build and innovate in industries like nuclear energy in the United States, it's not as straightforward to attribute the productivity slowdown to these policies alone. The speaker raises the point that other countries, such as France, have also faced challenges in achieving technological advancements and cheap energy, despite having different policy frameworks. The speaker suggests that there were macroeconomic reasons that affected productivity and economic growth everywhere, making it difficult for countries to achieve rapid progress. Additionally, the speaker questions the assumption that other countries, like Japan and Germany, had found better models for growth and innovation. Ultimately, the speaker suggests that the productivity slowdown was a complex issue with both global and domestic causes, and that returning to fast growth was a challenging prospect.

    • The need for a compelling vision of the future to justify risksAs societies prioritize environmental concerns and become more affluent, a compelling vision of the future is necessary to justify risks and invest in innovative projects.

      As societies become more affluent, they may become more risk-averse, making it challenging to invest in innovative projects with high risk. Additionally, as countries prioritize environmental concerns, there is a need for a compelling vision of the future that justifies such risks. The absence of such a vision, as noted in the discussion, has been a significant issue. Furthermore, the perception of the present plays a crucial role in shaping people's willingness to embrace the future. The 1960s and 70s saw a growing concern for the ugliness of modernity, which was perceived as polluted, concrete, and gray. To overcome the fear of the future, there is a need to paint a beautiful and inspiring vision of the world that can motivate people to take risks and invest in innovative projects.

    • Impact of Aesthetic Preferences on Urban DevelopmentAesthetic preferences of those in power influence urban development, environmental concerns shape politics, balance economic growth with diverse visions, collaborative approach necessary for productive, sustainable, and beautiful urban landscapes.

      The future of urban development and design is shaped by a complex interplay of political, economic, and aesthetic factors. The speaker emphasizes that people's aesthetic preferences, particularly those in power, can significantly impact the building process and productivity. The speaker also points out that the environmental movement and concerns about conservation have played a significant role in shaping the politics of urban development. The speaker advocates for a future that balances economic growth with diverse aesthetic visions, rather than imposing a single aesthetic. The speaker also acknowledges the influence of generational preferences and the power dynamics that come into play in urban planning. Ultimately, the speaker believes that a collaborative approach that considers various perspectives and values is necessary for creating a future urban landscape that is productive, sustainable, and beautiful for all.

    • Beauty and elegance driving innovationFocusing on beauty and elegance in tech and policy can lead to inspiring advancements. Effective R&D funding and DARPA's project-specific approach offer potential solutions to foster innovation.

      A focus on beauty and elegance, whether in technology or public policy, can lead to innovative and inspiring advancements. This was exemplified in the discussion about SpaceX's vision for colonizing Mars, which despite the harsh conditions, presents a beautiful and desirable future. Another key point raised was the importance of reevaluating the government's approach to funding R&D and ensuring that resources are effectively spent to foster innovation. The success of organizations like DARPA, which prioritize specific projects and allow for the rotation of project managers, offers a potential model for scaling these efforts. Ultimately, the goal is to create a culture that supports and accelerates innovation, especially in the face of economic stagnation and political uncertainty.

    • Government's fear of failure hinders innovationExcessive bureaucracy and fear of failure stifle innovation in some government programs, leading to a need for reform to encourage high-risk, high-reward projects and reduce red tape.

      While there is a tolerance for failure in certain government agencies like DARPA due to historical context and national security implications, this is not the case across all government programs. The fear of embarrassment and funding cuts has led to excessive bureaucracy and conservatism in many research structures, hindering potential advances. This is a bipartisan issue, with liberals being overly trusting of processes and conservatives creating the conditions that instill fear in civil servants. To address this, there is a need for reform to encourage more funding for high-risk, high-reward projects and to reduce the bureaucratic red tape that stifles innovation. The housing issue serves as a perfect example of this, as there is a need for more housing construction, yet the current system makes it difficult to build, going against the conservative belief in economic growth and dynamism.

    • Political Will Lacking for Large-Scale Projects Beyond COVID-19Despite the success of Operation Warp Speed, political divisions hinder investment in large-scale projects for other diseases or advancements.

      Despite the success of Operation Warp Speed in addressing the COVID-19 pandemic with a rapid and equitable vaccine distribution, there seems to be a lack of political will to invest in similar large-scale projects for other diseases or technological advancements. This is due in part to cultural and political divisions, with some conservatives opposing housing reform and progress on other issues, and both parties hesitant to give credit to the previous administration for its accomplishments. The speaker expresses hope that this trend will change and that the pandemic response can serve as a proof of concept for tackling other pressing issues, such as vaccine development and technological progress. However, the lack of a strong constituency and political leadership on this issue has hindered progress so far.

    • Government investment in technologies can drive progress and growthInvesting in technologies and clearing roadblocks for scientists can lead to significant economic growth and a new kind of politics

      Technological solutions are often overlooked when addressing political problems. While people can easily list social insurance programs they'd like to see implemented, they struggle to identify technologies they want the government to fund and bring into the present. The speaker argues that having the government invest in and clear roadblocks for certain technologies could significantly drive progress and growth, leading to a different kind of politics where the economy isn't fixed but can grow faster. However, the government still needs to decide how to allocate resources and remove obstacles, such as sourcing materials or monkeys for research, to help scientists focus on their expertise and make progress in their fields.

    • Role of Government in Accelerating InnovationGovernment plays a crucial role in accelerating innovation, particularly in the energy sector. Nuclear fusion, technology-sustainability interconnection, and a balanced approach to harnessing technology benefits while addressing potential negative impacts were emphasized.

      The role of government in accelerating innovation, particularly in the energy sector, is crucial. The discussion highlighted the importance of nuclear fusion and the potential impact of energy technologies on other areas like artificial intelligence. The interconnection of technology and sustainability was emphasized, and the need for a balanced approach in harnessing the benefits of technology while addressing its potential negative impacts was stressed. The speaker expressed skepticism towards a purely market-driven approach and advocated for a guiding hand from the government in making informed decisions about which technologies to prioritize and invest in. The potential of AI to create jobs as well as replace them was acknowledged, but no clear-cut solution was proposed for managing this duality. Ultimately, the conversation underscored the significance of careful consideration and collaboration between technology, sustainability, and governance.

    • Shaping the Future of AI through RegulationSociety must approach AI regulation with humility, considering both benefits and risks, and learn from past experiences to create a balanced approach.

      The development and regulation of AI are choices a society can make. Decisions about how to regulate AI will shape its pathway and potential consequences. Some people are concerned about privacy issues and the way tech companies make money, but this revenue is also funding important R&D. It's essential to approach AI regulation with humility and consider unexpected consequences. The internet is an example of an evolving technology that was initially left to evolve, and applying social media regulations to AI might not be the best approach. However, it's crucial to learn from past mistakes, such as those made during the growth era of the early 20th century, which led to genuine harms and aggressive regulation. Ultimately, a balanced approach that considers both the potential benefits and risks of AI is necessary.

    • Balancing regulation and innovationStriking the right balance between regulation and innovation requires understanding the complex relationship between caution and fear, economic uncertainty, and rapid growth.

      The relationship between wise regulation and social tolerance for innovation is more complex than it seems. While caution and concern from industry leaders and policymakers can lead to less regulation, the fear of potential harm can also stifle innovation. Balancing these fears without going too far in either direction is crucial. People's risk aversion tends to increase during periods of economic uncertainty, but rapid growth and confidence in the economy can lead to less regulation and more willingness to take risks. The past few decades have shown that excessive risk aversion can be detrimental, and learning from history can help us strike the right balance. As for recommended reads, I'd suggest "The Innovator's Dilemma" by Clayton M. Christensen, "The Lean Startup" by Eric Ries, and "Good Economics for Hard Times" by Abhijit V. Banerjee and Esther Duflo.

    • Connections Drive Economic GrowthPhysicist Cesar Hildago emphasizes the importance of connections in driving economic growth and recommends 'The Expanse' series as a depiction of this concept. He also endorses Michael Strain's book challenging common beliefs about wage stagnation and productivity.

      Economic growth and progress are driven by connections between people, companies, and even countries, according to physicist Cesar Hildago's "Why Information Grows." The author of the discussed book emphasizes this perspective in his work, and recommends "The Expanse" series as a depiction of a future where Earth has mastered the solar system but still faces challenges. The author also endorses Michael Strain's "The American Dream is Not Dead," a book challenging common beliefs about wage stagnation, income inequality, and productivity. Overall, the conversation highlights the importance of addressing problems and moving forward, even if new issues arise.

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    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

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    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump

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    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show’‘ was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker, Kate Sinclair and Rollin Hu. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

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    Your Mind Is Being Fracked

    Your Mind Is Being Fracked

    The steady dings of notifications. The 40 tabs that greet you when you open your computer in the morning. The hundreds of unread emails, most of them spam, with subject lines pleading or screaming for you to click. Our attention is under assault these days, and most of us are familiar with the feeling that gives us — fractured, irritated, overwhelmed.

    D. Graham Burnett calls the attention economy an example of “human fracking”: With our attention in shorter and shorter supply, companies are going to even greater lengths to extract this precious resource from us. And he argues that it’s now reached a point that calls for a kind of revolution. “This is creating conditions that are at odds with human flourishing. We know this,” he tells me. “And we need to mount new forms of resistance.”

    Burnett is a professor of the history of science at Princeton University and is working on a book about the laboratory study of attention. He’s also a co-founder of the Strother School of Radical Attention, which is a kind of grass roots, artistic effort to create a curriculum for studying attention.

    In this conversation, we talk about how the 20th-century study of attention laid the groundwork for today’s attention economy, the connection between changing ideas of attention and changing ideas of the self, how we even define attention (this episode is worth listening to for Burnett’s collection of beautiful metaphors alone), whether the concern over our shrinking attention spans is simply a moral panic, what it means to teach attention and more.

    Mentioned:

    Friends of Attention

    The Battle for Attention” by Nathan Heller

    Powerful Forces Are Fracking Our Attention. We Can Fight Back.” by D. Graham Burnett, Alyssa Loh and Peter Schmidt

    Scenes of Attention edited by D. Graham Burnett and Justin E. H. Smith

    Book Recommendations:

    Addiction by Design by Natasha Dow Schüll

    Objectivity by Lorraine Daston and Peter L. Galison

    The Confidence-Man by Herman Melville

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Elias Isquith. Original music by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
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    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    A.I.-generated art has flooded the internet, and a lot of it is derivative, even boring or offensive. But what could it look like for artists to collaborate with A.I. systems in making art that is actually generative, challenging, transcendent?

    Holly Herndon offered one answer with her 2019 album “PROTO.” Along with Mathew Dryhurst and the programmer Jules LaPlace, she built an A.I. called “Spawn” trained on human voices that adds an uncanny yet oddly personal layer to the music. Beyond her music and visual art, Herndon is trying to solve a problem that many creative people are encountering as A.I. becomes more prominent: How do you encourage experimentation without stealing others’ work to train A.I. models? Along with Dryhurst, Jordan Meyer and Patrick Hoepner, she co-founded Spawning, a company figuring out how to allow artists — and all of us creating content on the internet — to “consent” to our work being used as training data.

    In this conversation, we discuss how Herndon collaborated with a human chorus and her “A.I. baby,” Spawn, on “PROTO”; how A.I. voice imitators grew out of electronic music and other musical genres; why Herndon prefers the term “collective intelligence” to “artificial intelligence”; why an “opt-in” model could help us retain more control of our work as A.I. trawls the internet for data; and much more.

    Mentioned:

    Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt” by Holly Herndon

    xhairymutantx” by Holly Herndon and Mat Dryhurst, for the Whitney Museum of Art

    Fade” by Holly Herndon

    Swim” by Holly Herndon

    Jolene” by Holly Herndon and Holly+

    Movement” by Holly Herndon

    Chorus” by Holly Herndon

    Godmother” by Holly Herndon

    The Precision of Infinity” by Jlin and Philip Glass

    Holly+

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    Intelligence and Spirit by Reza Negarestani

    Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky

    Plurality by E. Glen Weyl, Audrey Tang and ⿻ Community

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Jack Hamilton.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 24, 2024

    A Conservative Futurist and a Supply-Side Liberal Walk Into a Podcast …

    A Conservative Futurist and a Supply-Side Liberal Walk Into a Podcast …

    “The Jetsons” premiered in 1962. And based on the internal math of the show, George Jetson, the dad, was born in 2022. He’d be a toddler right now. And we are so far away from the world that show imagined. There were a lot of future-trippers in the 1960s, and most of them would be pretty disappointed by how that future turned out.

    So what happened? Why didn’t we build that future?

    The answer, I think, lies in the 1970s. I’ve been spending a lot of time studying that decade in my work, trying to understand why America is so bad at building today. And James Pethokoukis has also spent a lot of time looking at the 1970s, in his work trying to understand why America is less innovative today than it was in the postwar decades. So Pethokoukis and I are asking similar questions, and circling the same time period, but from very different ideological vantages.

    Pethokoukis is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, and author of the book “The Conservative Futurist: How to Create the Sci-Fi World We Were Promised.” He also writes a newsletter called Faster, Please! “The two screamingly obvious things that we stopped doing is we stopped spending on science, research and development the way we did in the 1960s,” he tells me, “and we began to regulate our economy as if regulation would have no impact on innovation.”

    In this conversation, we debate why the ’70s were such an inflection point; whether this slowdown phenomenon is just something that happens as countries get wealthier; and what the government’s role should be in supporting and regulating emerging technologies like A.I.

    Mentioned:

    U.S. Infrastructure: 1929-2017” by Ray C. Fair

    Book Recommendations

    Why Information Grows by Cesar Hidalgo

    The Expanse series by James S.A. Corey

    The American Dream Is Not Dead by Michael R. Strain

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 21, 2024

    The Disastrous Relationship Between Israel, Palestinians and the U.N.

    The Disastrous Relationship Between Israel, Palestinians and the U.N.

    The international legal system was created to prevent the atrocities of World War II from happening again. The United Nations partitioned historic Palestine to create the states of Israel and Palestine, but also left Palestinians with decades of false promises. The war in Gaza — and countless other conflicts, including those in Syria, Yemen and Ethiopia — shows how little power the U.N. and international law have to protect civilians in wartime. So what is international law actually for?

    Aslı Ü. Bâli is a professor at Yale Law School who specializes in international and comparative law. “The fact that people break the law and sometimes get away with it doesn’t mean the law doesn’t exist and doesn’t have force,” she argues.

    In this conversation, Bâli traces the gap between how international law is written on paper and the realpolitik of how countries decide to follow it, the U.N.’s unique role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from its very beginning, how the laws of war have failed Gazans but may be starting to change the conflict’s course, and more.

    Mentioned:

    With Schools in Ruins, Education in Gaza Will Be Hobbled for Years” by Liam Stack and Bilal Shbair

    Book Recommendations:

    Imperialism, Sovereignty and the Making of International Law by Antony Anghie

    Justice for Some by Noura Erakat

    Worldmaking After Empire by Adom Getachew

    The Constitutional Bind by Aziz Rana

    The United Nations and the Question of Palestine by Ardi Imseis

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Carole Sabouraud.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 17, 2024