Logo
    Search

    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump

    enJune 04, 2024

    Podcast Summary

    • Role of political partiesDespite Washington's warning, modern political parties manage conflict rather than causing it, but the weakened state of the Republican party has led to dangerous control by Trump

      The modern political landscape, particularly in the U.S., has drastically changed the role of political parties. Donald Trump's presidency is a prime example of this shift, as his celebrity status, fueled by reality TV and social media, allowed him to bypass traditional party gatekeepers and secure the Republican nomination. This change reflects a larger hollowing out of political parties, as their legitimacy and ability to control nominations have declined. Washington's warning against parties creating disunity and potentially leading to despotism was incorrect, as parties now serve to manage political conflict rather than causing it. However, the Republican party's failure to effectively manage this conflict has led to Trump's dangerous control over the party and its institutions. The problem is not Trump himself, but the weakened state of the Republican party, which has its roots in decades of political development.

    • Political Parties Shifts in AmericaPolitical parties in America have evolved from coalitional groups offering patronage to issue-oriented activists, ideological and programmatic agendas, and populist movements, with the Republican Party as an example of such shifts

      The meaning and organization of political parties throughout American history have undergone significant shifts, with various sources of meaning and privileged actors shaping their formations. Initially, parties functioned as organizers of coalitional groups, offering patronage and other benefits to their members. Later, progressive parties emerged, driven by issue-oriented activists. More recently, parties have been influenced by ideological and programmatic agendas, as well as populist socialist resentment and pro-capitalist interests. The Republican Party, for instance, shifted from a disciplined, ideological party under Bush to an uncompromising, conflict-driven one under Trump. This transformation was influenced by factors like the failures of Bush's presidency and the growing disconnect between the priorities of movement conservatives and the Republican voter base.

    • Republican Party shift towards social conflictThe Republican Party has moved from using social resentment to drive tax cuts to prioritizing social conflict, marking a significant change in its nature.

      The Republican Party has shifted from using social resentment to drive tax cuts to fueling social conflict. This change became evident during the presidency of Donald Trump, who prioritized social conflict over conservative economics. Newt Gingrich, a key Republican figure from the late 1970s to the 1990s, also emphasized the importance of power and building a sustainable majority. However, the policy structure of the parties has become unsettled, with media and the increasing role of right-wing media playing a significant role in shaping the party's policy impulses. The unpopularity of the substantive agenda also contributes to this flexibility. The Republican Party's response to Watergate in the 1970s, when it was not yet dominated by the conservative movement, provides a stark contrast to its current stance. Today, the party prioritizes a strong leader and the politics of social resentment over acting as an effective party with the capacity to deviate from the party line to maximize electoral advantage. This shift towards conflict over ideology marks a significant change in the nature of the Republican Party.

    • Republican Party's power struggleThe Republican Party's transformation over the decades involves a power struggle against perceived kingmakers, leading to a plasticity in policy and an apocalyptic style of politics, as well as the rise of single-issue politics fueled by small donors.

      The Republican Party's transformation over the past few decades can be understood, in part, as a power struggle against perceived kingmakers, with various political styles and tactics emerging from this dynamic. Phyllis Schlafly, a prominent conservative figure, saw this dynamic at play in the 1960s with Barry Goldwater and again in 2016 with Donald Trump. The desire to own the liberals and stop the kingmakers has led to a plasticity in policy and ideology, as well as an apocalyptic style of politics that rejects mutual toleration and norms of governance. Additionally, the role of small donors, particularly through direct mail, has been underestimated in the hollowing out of the Republican Party and the rise of single-issue politics.

    • McGovern-Fraser reformsThe McGovern-Fraser reforms led to a more open and uncoordinated nomination process, often favoring ideological extremists or outsiders, and had lasting consequences on the modern nomination system.

      The evolution of political nomination processes, specifically the implementation of the McGovern-Fraser reforms in the late 1960s and 1970s, significantly altered the way presidential nominees are chosen in the United States. This shift from party-controlled conventions to primary-based elections led to a proliferation of direct primaries and the decline of party influence at the state level. Despite the initial intention of empowering social movements and issue-driven activists, the outcome was a more open and uncoordinated nomination process that often favored ideological extremists or outsiders. This change had lasting consequences, leading to the rise of candidates like George McGovern, Jimmy Carter, and Ronald Reagan, who each faced unique challenges in the general election due to their lack of party support. Ultimately, the McGovern-Fraser reforms transformed the nomination process into the modern system we know today, with its emphasis on primaries and caucuses as the primary means of selecting nominees.

    • Party gatekeeping functionsThe erosion of party gatekeeping functions, such as conventions and superdelegates, has made it easier for extremist figures to rise to power in American politics, putting democracy at risk.

      The loss of party gatekeeping functions, such as conventions and superdelegates, has made American politics more vulnerable to extremist figures like Donald Trump. While these gatekeeping functions had their flaws, they also ensured that only candidates with broad appeal could rise to the top. The erosion of party legitimacy and trust, as well as the weakening of party gatekeepers, has left American democracy at risk. The current political climate, with weakened candidates on both sides, highlights the importance of parties in making strategic decisions and preventing the rise of dangerous and compromised figures. The loss of party control and the focus on open primaries and freewheeling systems may have seemed like progress, but it has come at a cost to the stability and effectiveness of American democracy.

    • Democratic Party CrisisThe 2020 Democratic primary lacked coordination and trust, leading to an uncertain and late nomination process for Joe Biden, raising concerns about the democratic nature of the system. Biden's presidency has been marked by challenges and inadequate responses, leading to instability within the party.

      The 2020 Democratic Party primary was marked by a lack of coordination and a haphazard process that ultimately led to Joe Biden's nomination. This was a reflection of decades of eroding capacity, trust, and legitimacy within the party. While some may view Biden's nomination as a demonstration of the Democratic establishment's strength, it was actually a late and uncertain process that raised concerns about the democratic nature of the system. Additionally, Biden's presidency has been marked by challenges, including his age and perceived lack of effectiveness in front of cameras. The party's response to these challenges has been inadequate, leading to a lack of direction and instability within the party. Recommendations: 1. "The Two Faces of American Freedom" by Aziz Rana - This book explores the duality of American democracy, where the commitment to equality and freedom among citizens intensifies the violent subjugation and exclusion of those outside of the citizenry. 2. "Rainbows and Irish Americans and the Dilemmas of Urban Machine Politics, 1840 to 1985" by Stephen Eary - This book offers a nuanced understanding of machine politics and the benefits it provided to core constituencies. 3. "The Presidential Campaign of 1968" by Louis Chester, Godfrey Hodgson, and Bruce Page - This book provides a comprehensive account of the 1968 presidential campaign, combining novelistic attention to the inside players with a deep understanding of the historical context.

    • Podcast audience strategyUnderstand listeners' needs and preferences, use data analysis, engage with listeners, focus on authenticity, consistency, and loyalty to build a successful podcast audience

      A successful audience strategy in podcasting involves understanding your listeners' needs and preferences, and delivering content that resonates with them. Christina Similewski and Shannon Busta, executives at New York Times Opinion Audio, discussed this topic in depth during a recent podcasting conference. They emphasized the importance of data analysis to inform content decisions and the value of engaging with listeners through social media and other channels. Andy Roethstrasser, the executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio, and Sonia Herrero were also recognized for their contributions to the conversation. Overall, the panelists emphasized the importance of authenticity, consistency, and listener engagement in building a loyal audience for a podcast. By focusing on these key elements, podcasters can create content that not only attracts new listeners but also keeps existing ones coming back for more.

    Recent Episodes from The Ezra Klein Show

    After That Debate, the Risk of Biden Is Clear

    After That Debate, the Risk of Biden Is Clear

    I joined my Times Opinion colleagues Ross Douthat and Michelle Cottle to discuss the debate — and what Democrats might do next.

    Mentioned:

    The Biden and Trump Weaknesses That Don’t Get Enough Attention” by Ross Douthat

    Trump’s Bold Vision for America: Higher Prices!” with Matthew Yglesias on The Ezra Klein Show

    Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden” on The Ezra Klein Show

    Here’s How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work” with Elaine Kamarck on The Ezra Klein Show

    Gretchen Whitmer on The Interview

    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump” with Sam Rosenfeld and Daniel Schlozman on The Ezra Klein Show

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 28, 2024

    Trump’s Bold Vision for America: Higher Prices!

    Trump’s Bold Vision for America: Higher Prices!

    Donald Trump has made inflation a central part of his campaign message. At his rallies, he rails against “the Biden inflation tax” and “crooked Joe’s inflation nightmare,” and promises that in a second Trump term, “inflation will be in full retreat.”

    But if you look at Trump’s actual policies, that wouldn’t be the case at all. Trump has a bold, ambitious agenda to make prices much, much higher. He’s proposing a 10 percent tariff on imported goods, and a 60 percent tariff on products from China. He wants to deport huge numbers of immigrants. And he’s made it clear that he’d like to replace the Federal Reserve chair with someone more willing to take orders from him. It’s almost unimaginable to me that you would run on this agenda at a time when Americans are so mad about high prices. But I don’t think people really know that’s what Trump is vowing to do.

    So to drill into the weeds of Trump’s plans, I decided to call up an old friend. Matt Yglesias is a Bloomberg Opinion columnist and the author of the Slow Boring newsletter, where he’s been writing a lot about Trump’s proposals. We also used to host a policy podcast together, “The Weeds.”

    In this conversation, we discuss what would happen to the economy, especially in terms of inflation, if Trump actually did what he says he wants to do; what we can learn from how Trump managed the economy in his first term; and why more people aren’t sounding the alarm.

    Mentioned:

    Trump’s new economic plan is terrible” by Matthew Yglesias

    Never mind: Wall Street titans shake off qualms and embrace Trump” by Sam Sutton

    How Far Trump Would Go” by Eric Cortellessa

    Book Recommendations:

    Take Back the Game by Linda Flanagan

    1177 B.C. by Eric H. Cline

    The Rise of the G.I. Army, 1940-1941 by Paul Dickson

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Mixing by Isaac Jones, with Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero, Adam Posen and Michael Strain.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 21, 2024

    The Biggest Political Divide Is Not Left vs. Right

    The Biggest Political Divide Is Not Left vs. Right

    The biggest divide in our politics isn’t between Democrats and Republicans, or even left and right. It’s between people who follow politics closely, and those who pay almost no attention to it. If you’re in the former camp — and if you’re reading this, you probably are — the latter camp can seem inscrutable. These people hardly ever look at political news. They hate discussing politics. But they do care about issues and candidates, and they often vote.

    As the 2024 election takes shape, this bloc appears crucial to determining who wins the presidency. An NBC News poll from April found that 15 percent of voters don’t follow political news, and Donald Trump was winning them by 26 points.

    Yanna Krupnikov studies exactly this kind of voter. She’s a professor of communication and media at the University of Michigan and an author, with John Barry Ryan, of “The Other Divide: Polarization and Disengagement in American Politics.” The book examines how the chasm between the deeply involved and the less involved shapes politics in America. I’ve found it to be a helpful guide for understanding one of the most crucial dynamics emerging in this year’s election: the swing to Trump from President Biden among disengaged voters.

    In this conversation, we discuss how politically disengaged voters relate to politics; where they get their information about politics and how they form opinions; and whether major news events, like Trump’s recent conviction, might sway them.

    Mentioned:

    The ‘Need for Chaos’ and Motivations to Share Hostile Political Rumors” by Michael Bang Petersen, Mathias Osmundsen and Kevin Arceneaux

    Hooked by Markus Prior

    The Political Influence of Lifestyle Influencers? Examining the Relationship Between Aspirational Social Media Use and Anti-Expert Attitudes and Beliefs” by Ariel Hasell and Sedona Chinn

    One explanation for the 2024 election’s biggest mystery” by Eric Levitz

    Book Recommendations:

    What Goes Without Saying by Taylor N. Carlson and Jaime E. Settle

    Through the Grapevine by Taylor N. Carlson

    Sorry I’m Late, I Didn’t Want to Come by Jessica Pan

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 18, 2024

    The View From the Israeli Right

    The View From the Israeli Right

    On Tuesday I got back from an eight-day trip to Israel and the West Bank. I happened to be there on the day that Benny Gantz resigned from the war cabinet and called on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to schedule new elections, breaking the unity government that Israel had had since shortly after Oct. 7.

    There is no viable left wing in Israel right now. There is a coalition that Netanyahu leads stretching from right to far right and a coalition that Gantz leads stretching from center to right. In the early months of the war, Gantz appeared ascendant as support for Netanyahu cratered. But now Netanyahu’s poll numbers are ticking back up.

    So one thing I did in Israel was deepen my reporting on Israel’s right. And there, Amit Segal’s name kept coming up. He’s one of Israel’s most influential political analysts and the author of “The Story of Israeli Politics” is coming out in English.

    Segal and I talked about the political differences between Gantz and Netanyahu, the theory of security that’s emerging on the Israeli right, what happened to the Israeli left, the threat from Iran and Hezbollah and how Netanyahu is trying to use President Biden’s criticism to his political advantage.

    Mentioned:

    Biden May Spur Another Netanyahu Comeback” by Amit Segal

    Book Recommendations:

    The Years of Lyndon Johnson Series by Robert A. Caro

    The World of Yesterday by Stefan Zweig

    The Object of Zionism by Zvi Efrat

    The News from Waterloo by Brian Cathcart

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 14, 2024

    The Economic Theory That Explains Why Americans Are So Mad

    The Economic Theory That Explains Why Americans Are So Mad

    There’s something weird happening with the economy. On a personal level, most Americans say they’re doing pretty well right now. And according to the data, that’s true. Wages have gone up faster than inflation. Unemployment is low, the stock market is generally up so far this year, and people are buying more stuff.

    And yet in surveys, people keep saying the economy is bad. A recent Harris poll for The Guardian found that around half of Americans think the S. & P. 500 is down this year, and that unemployment is at a 50-year high. Fifty-six percent think we’re in a recession.

    There are many theories about why this gap exists. Maybe political polarization is warping how people see the economy or it’s a failure of President Biden’s messaging, or there’s just something uniquely painful about inflation. And while there’s truth in all of these, it felt like a piece of the story was missing.

    And for me, that missing piece was an article I read right before the pandemic. An Atlantic story from February 2020 called “The Great Affordability Crisis Breaking America.” It described how some of Americans’ biggest-ticket expenses — housing, health care, higher education and child care — which were already pricey, had been getting steadily pricier for decades.

    At the time, prices weren’t the big topic in the economy; the focus was more on jobs and wages. So it was easier for this trend to slip notice, like a frog boiling in water, quietly, putting more and more strain on American budgets. But today, after years of high inflation, prices are the biggest topic in the economy. And I think that explains the anger people feel: They’re noticing the price of things all the time, and getting hammered with the reality of how expensive these things have become.

    The author of that Atlantic piece is Annie Lowrey. She’s an economics reporter, the author of Give People Money, and also my wife. In this conversation, we discuss how the affordability crisis has collided with our post-pandemic inflationary world, the forces that shape our economic perceptions, why people keep spending as if prices aren’t a strain and what this might mean for the presidential election.

    Mentioned:

    It Will Never Be a Good Time to Buy a House” by Annie Lowrey

    Book Recommendations:

    Franchise by Marcia Chatelain

    A Place of Greater Safety by Hilary Mantel

    Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 07, 2024

    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump

    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump

    After Donald Trump was convicted last week in his hush-money trial, Republican leaders wasted no time in rallying behind him. There was no chance the Republican Party was going to replace Trump as their nominee at this point. Trump has essentially taken over the G.O.P.; his daughter-in-law is even co-chair of the Republican National Committee.

    How did the Republican Party get so weak that it could fall victim to a hostile takeover?

    Daniel Schlozman and Sam Rosenfeld are the authors of “The Hollow Parties: The Many Pasts and Disordered Present of American Party Politics,” which traces how both major political parties have been “hollowed out” over the decades, transforming once-powerful gatekeeping institutions into mere vessels for the ideologies of specific candidates. And they argue that this change has been perilous for our democracy.

    In this conversation, we discuss how the power of the parties has been gradually chipped away; why the Republican Party became less ideological and more geared around conflict; the merits of a stronger party system; and more.

    Mentioned:

    Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden” by The Ezra Klein Show

    Here’s How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work” by The Ezra Klein Show with Elaine Kamarck

    Book Recommendations:

    The Two Faces of American Freedom by Aziz Rana

    Rainbow’s End by Steven P. Erie

    An American Melodrama by Lewis Chester, Godfrey Hodgson, Bruce Page

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show’‘ was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker, Kate Sinclair and Rollin Hu. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 04, 2024

    Your Mind Is Being Fracked

    Your Mind Is Being Fracked

    The steady dings of notifications. The 40 tabs that greet you when you open your computer in the morning. The hundreds of unread emails, most of them spam, with subject lines pleading or screaming for you to click. Our attention is under assault these days, and most of us are familiar with the feeling that gives us — fractured, irritated, overwhelmed.

    D. Graham Burnett calls the attention economy an example of “human fracking”: With our attention in shorter and shorter supply, companies are going to even greater lengths to extract this precious resource from us. And he argues that it’s now reached a point that calls for a kind of revolution. “This is creating conditions that are at odds with human flourishing. We know this,” he tells me. “And we need to mount new forms of resistance.”

    Burnett is a professor of the history of science at Princeton University and is working on a book about the laboratory study of attention. He’s also a co-founder of the Strother School of Radical Attention, which is a kind of grass roots, artistic effort to create a curriculum for studying attention.

    In this conversation, we talk about how the 20th-century study of attention laid the groundwork for today’s attention economy, the connection between changing ideas of attention and changing ideas of the self, how we even define attention (this episode is worth listening to for Burnett’s collection of beautiful metaphors alone), whether the concern over our shrinking attention spans is simply a moral panic, what it means to teach attention and more.

    Mentioned:

    Friends of Attention

    The Battle for Attention” by Nathan Heller

    Powerful Forces Are Fracking Our Attention. We Can Fight Back.” by D. Graham Burnett, Alyssa Loh and Peter Schmidt

    Scenes of Attention edited by D. Graham Burnett and Justin E. H. Smith

    Book Recommendations:

    Addiction by Design by Natasha Dow Schüll

    Objectivity by Lorraine Daston and Peter L. Galison

    The Confidence-Man by Herman Melville

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Elias Isquith. Original music by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 31, 2024

    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    A.I.-generated art has flooded the internet, and a lot of it is derivative, even boring or offensive. But what could it look like for artists to collaborate with A.I. systems in making art that is actually generative, challenging, transcendent?

    Holly Herndon offered one answer with her 2019 album “PROTO.” Along with Mathew Dryhurst and the programmer Jules LaPlace, she built an A.I. called “Spawn” trained on human voices that adds an uncanny yet oddly personal layer to the music. Beyond her music and visual art, Herndon is trying to solve a problem that many creative people are encountering as A.I. becomes more prominent: How do you encourage experimentation without stealing others’ work to train A.I. models? Along with Dryhurst, Jordan Meyer and Patrick Hoepner, she co-founded Spawning, a company figuring out how to allow artists — and all of us creating content on the internet — to “consent” to our work being used as training data.

    In this conversation, we discuss how Herndon collaborated with a human chorus and her “A.I. baby,” Spawn, on “PROTO”; how A.I. voice imitators grew out of electronic music and other musical genres; why Herndon prefers the term “collective intelligence” to “artificial intelligence”; why an “opt-in” model could help us retain more control of our work as A.I. trawls the internet for data; and much more.

    Mentioned:

    Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt” by Holly Herndon

    xhairymutantx” by Holly Herndon and Mat Dryhurst, for the Whitney Museum of Art

    Fade” by Holly Herndon

    Swim” by Holly Herndon

    Jolene” by Holly Herndon and Holly+

    Movement” by Holly Herndon

    Chorus” by Holly Herndon

    Godmother” by Holly Herndon

    The Precision of Infinity” by Jlin and Philip Glass

    Holly+

    Book Recommendations:

    Intelligence and Spirit by Reza Negarestani

    Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky

    Plurality by E. Glen Weyl, Audrey Tang and ⿻ Community

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Jack Hamilton.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 24, 2024

    A Conservative Futurist and a Supply-Side Liberal Walk Into a Podcast …

    A Conservative Futurist and a Supply-Side Liberal Walk Into a Podcast …

    “The Jetsons” premiered in 1962. And based on the internal math of the show, George Jetson, the dad, was born in 2022. He’d be a toddler right now. And we are so far away from the world that show imagined. There were a lot of future-trippers in the 1960s, and most of them would be pretty disappointed by how that future turned out.

    So what happened? Why didn’t we build that future?

    The answer, I think, lies in the 1970s. I’ve been spending a lot of time studying that decade in my work, trying to understand why America is so bad at building today. And James Pethokoukis has also spent a lot of time looking at the 1970s, in his work trying to understand why America is less innovative today than it was in the postwar decades. So Pethokoukis and I are asking similar questions, and circling the same time period, but from very different ideological vantages.

    Pethokoukis is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, and author of the book “The Conservative Futurist: How to Create the Sci-Fi World We Were Promised.” He also writes a newsletter called Faster, Please! “The two screamingly obvious things that we stopped doing is we stopped spending on science, research and development the way we did in the 1960s,” he tells me, “and we began to regulate our economy as if regulation would have no impact on innovation.”

    In this conversation, we debate why the ’70s were such an inflection point; whether this slowdown phenomenon is just something that happens as countries get wealthier; and what the government’s role should be in supporting and regulating emerging technologies like A.I.

    Mentioned:

    U.S. Infrastructure: 1929-2017” by Ray C. Fair

    Book Recommendations

    Why Information Grows by Cesar Hidalgo

    The Expanse series by James S.A. Corey

    The American Dream Is Not Dead by Michael R. Strain

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 21, 2024

    The Disastrous Relationship Between Israel, Palestinians and the U.N.

    The Disastrous Relationship Between Israel, Palestinians and the U.N.

    The international legal system was created to prevent the atrocities of World War II from happening again. The United Nations partitioned historic Palestine to create the states of Israel and Palestine, but also left Palestinians with decades of false promises. The war in Gaza — and countless other conflicts, including those in Syria, Yemen and Ethiopia — shows how little power the U.N. and international law have to protect civilians in wartime. So what is international law actually for?

    Aslı Ü. Bâli is a professor at Yale Law School who specializes in international and comparative law. “The fact that people break the law and sometimes get away with it doesn’t mean the law doesn’t exist and doesn’t have force,” she argues.

    In this conversation, Bâli traces the gap between how international law is written on paper and the realpolitik of how countries decide to follow it, the U.N.’s unique role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from its very beginning, how the laws of war have failed Gazans but may be starting to change the conflict’s course, and more.

    Mentioned:

    With Schools in Ruins, Education in Gaza Will Be Hobbled for Years” by Liam Stack and Bilal Shbair

    Book Recommendations:

    Imperialism, Sovereignty and the Making of International Law by Antony Anghie

    Justice for Some by Noura Erakat

    Worldmaking After Empire by Adom Getachew

    The Constitutional Bind by Aziz Rana

    The United Nations and the Question of Palestine by Ardi Imseis

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Carole Sabouraud.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 17, 2024