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    The View From the Israeli Right

    enJune 14, 2024

    Podcast Summary

    • Israeli-international disconnectThe Israeli-international disconnect is a major driver of Israeli politics, fueling anger and ideological divisions within Israeli society, potentially strengthening the right's stance and weakening unity, sending a negative message to enemies and allies.

      There is a profound divergence between how Israelis and the international community view Israel's reality and its conflicts, particularly with Palestinians. This disconnect has become a major driver of Israeli politics and anger, with the narrative of the Israeli right holding significant influence. The recent resignation of Benny Gantz from the war cabinet is a reflection of this division and could potentially strengthen the right's political stance. The Israeli society is more divided than ever before, and this division sends a bad message to enemies and allies alike. The unity government's dismantling is a symptom and a cause of this deep-rooted mistrust and ideological divide within Israeli politics.

    • Israeli political landscapeThe Israeli political landscape is complex and nuanced, with shifting coalitions and a skepticism towards peace deals and unilateral withdrawals due to past failures

      Israeli politics, particularly regarding security, can be complex and nuanced, defying simple left-right categorizations. For instance, Netanyahu's support for a Palestinian statehood is not widely believed, yet he is perceived as more right-wing than Gantz, who has never explicitly expressed such support. The Israeli political landscape has shifted, with the left seemingly disappearing and being replaced by a center-left to moderate right coalition, as well as a right to further right coalition. The failure of past peace deals and negotiations, as well as unilateral withdrawals, has led to a growing skepticism towards such approaches and a belief that creating a vacuum will only lead to instability and potential danger. Avigdor Lieberman, despite being considered right-wing by some, is perceived as a center-left liberal leader due to his voter base and focus on identity issues rather than territorial disputes. The Israeli public's shift towards capitalism and skepticism towards peace deals has led to the current political landscape.

    • Israeli-Palestinian conflict security focusThe Israeli-Palestinian conflict is transitioning to a security-focused phase, with Israel preparing for ongoing military operations and inconsistent international support, leading to frustration and mistrust on the Israeli side.

      The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is entering a new phase, characterized by a shift from a focus on peace to a focus on security. This means that Israel may need to prepare for ongoing military operations in the North and the South for the foreseeable future, with a likely toll on lives and resources. The international community's response to these conflicts has been inconsistent, with some leaders, like George W. Bush, publicly supporting Israel's right to defend itself, while others, like Obama and Biden, imposing restrictions on Israel's access to military aid. This inconsistency has led to a sense of frustration and mistrust on the Israeli side, with some questioning the value of seeking international legitimacy through territorial concessions. The situation in Gaza, in particular, has been described as a "managed containment" of a brutal and repressive regime, with a blockade aimed at preventing the import of weapons and other materials that could be used for terrorist activities. Despite these challenges, there is a consensus in Israel for a management approach rather than an ideological one, but this consensus has not led to a broader political agreement within the country.

    • Palestinian budget controversy7% of Palestinian Authority's budget goes to convicted terrorists' salaries, causing controversy with Israel, and Israeli actions threaten PA's financial stability, potentially destabilizing West Bank situation

      The situation in the West Bank is complex and volatile, with Hamas and the Palestinian Authority having different motivations and goals. Seven percent of the Palestinian Authority's budget goes to paying salaries to convicted terrorists, which has led to controversy and tension with Israel. The Palestinian Authority relies on tax revenues from Israel to pay its employees, but recent actions by Israeli officials have led to a financial crisis, potentially destabilizing the situation in the West Bank. The history of violence and political instability in the region makes the situation even more complicated, with no clear solution in sight. The international community, including the Biden administration, faces a difficult challenge in navigating this complex situation and finding a way to promote peace and stability in the region. The failure of past attempts to create a two-state solution highlights the need for a new approach to address the root causes of the conflict and find a way forward for both Israelis and Palestinians.

    • Israeli-Palestinian conflictDespite efforts to focus on economic development, security concerns and external actors like Iran and Hezbollah make a clear solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict elusive.

      The situation in the West Bank and Israel is complex and uncertain, with the Palestinian Authority's governance relying on Israel's support. The theory of focusing on economic development and improving infrastructure as a means to reduce conflict has lost popularity due to increasing security concerns, particularly in the wake of rocket attacks from Gaza and Hezbollah in Lebanon. The Israeli public prioritizes security over economic cooperation, and the ongoing instability in the region makes a clear solution elusive. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is multifaceted, with security concerns and the role of external actors like Iran and Hezbollah playing significant roles.

    • Iran's strategic plan against IsraelIran's ideological ambitions drive Hezbollah's actions in Lebanon, and Israel needs international legitimacy, military strength, and diplomatic alliances to counter the threat.

      The situation between Israel and its neighbors, particularly Lebanon and Iran, is complex and multifaceted. While there may be tactical reasons for Hezbollah's actions in Lebanon, there is also a longer-term strategic plan driven by Iran's ideological ambitions. Israel's international legitimacy and support are crucial for its defense against these threats, but the current tensions in Gaza and the West Bank may be depleting these resources. Israel may need to focus on rebuilding its military and forming a consensus coalition to face the Iranian threat, potentially with cooperation from the US and moderate Sunni countries. The Biden administration's stance on Israel has become a potent issue, with some Israelis viewing him as a potential advantage due to his push for a ceasefire and reconstruction plan, which may align with their desire for change while still maintaining a hawkish stance.

    • Israeli political landscapeIsraeli public's skepticism towards two-state solution and US support for it complicates Israeli politics, Netanyahu's disagreements with US administration resonates with public but may become less effective in long run

      The Israeli political landscape is in flux as the public grapples with distrust towards their leaders and external pressures. Netanyahu's stance of going public with disagreements with the US administration, a strategy inherited from his father, continues to resonate with the Israeli public, despite his inability to maintain his reputation as a security leader. Gantz, on the other hand, is perceived as more likely to prioritize closer relationships with the US and Europe. The Israeli public's skepticism towards the two-state solution and the Biden administration's support for it creates a complex dynamic. The recent shift in American politics, with a growing isolationist sentiment and declining sympathy for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, further complicates matters. Netanyahu's approach of taking disagreements with the US administration to the American public remains a significant advantage for him. However, the changing political landscape and generational shifts in American attitudes towards Israel may limit the effectiveness of this strategy in the long run.

    • Israeli security alliancesIsraeli security relies on tangible support from allies, especially during uncertain political times. Normalization deals offer opportunities for new partnerships, but require mutual interests and shared enemies. Israel is also focusing on expanding relationships with various communities to expand influence and allies. Ongoing tensions with militant groups and Iran make strong alliances crucial.

      Israeli security depends not only on values and cooperation but also on tangible support from allies, especially in the context of an uncertain US administration. The normalization deals with countries like Saudi Arabia offer new opportunities for Israel, but they require mutual interests and a shared enemy, such as Iran, to drive the partnership. Additionally, Israel is focusing on strengthening relationships with various communities, including the Jewish community and ethnic and religious minorities, to expand its influence and allies. The ongoing tensions with Hamas and other militant groups, as well as the threat from Iran, make the need for strong alliances more pressing than ever. Israelis are looking for concrete actions and support from their allies, and an excuse, such as a ceasefire or peace treaty, may be necessary to move forward with normalization deals. Three recommended books for further understanding are "Israel: A History" by Michael B. Oren, "The Passion and the Power: The Life of Lyndon B. Johnson" by Robert A. Caro, and "The World of Yesterday" by Stefan Zweig.

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    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

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    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

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    Holly Herndon offered one answer with her 2019 album “PROTO.” Along with Mathew Dryhurst and the programmer Jules LaPlace, she built an A.I. called “Spawn” trained on human voices that adds an uncanny yet oddly personal layer to the music. Beyond her music and visual art, Herndon is trying to solve a problem that many creative people are encountering as A.I. becomes more prominent: How do you encourage experimentation without stealing others’ work to train A.I. models? Along with Dryhurst, Jordan Meyer and Patrick Hoepner, she co-founded Spawning, a company figuring out how to allow artists — and all of us creating content on the internet — to “consent” to our work being used as training data.

    In this conversation, we discuss how Herndon collaborated with a human chorus and her “A.I. baby,” Spawn, on “PROTO”; how A.I. voice imitators grew out of electronic music and other musical genres; why Herndon prefers the term “collective intelligence” to “artificial intelligence”; why an “opt-in” model could help us retain more control of our work as A.I. trawls the internet for data; and much more.

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    Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt” by Holly Herndon

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    Swim” by Holly Herndon

    Jolene” by Holly Herndon and Holly+

    Movement” by Holly Herndon

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    The Precision of Infinity” by Jlin and Philip Glass

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    A Conservative Futurist and a Supply-Side Liberal Walk Into a Podcast …

    A Conservative Futurist and a Supply-Side Liberal Walk Into a Podcast …

    “The Jetsons” premiered in 1962. And based on the internal math of the show, George Jetson, the dad, was born in 2022. He’d be a toddler right now. And we are so far away from the world that show imagined. There were a lot of future-trippers in the 1960s, and most of them would be pretty disappointed by how that future turned out.

    So what happened? Why didn’t we build that future?

    The answer, I think, lies in the 1970s. I’ve been spending a lot of time studying that decade in my work, trying to understand why America is so bad at building today. And James Pethokoukis has also spent a lot of time looking at the 1970s, in his work trying to understand why America is less innovative today than it was in the postwar decades. So Pethokoukis and I are asking similar questions, and circling the same time period, but from very different ideological vantages.

    Pethokoukis is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, and author of the book “The Conservative Futurist: How to Create the Sci-Fi World We Were Promised.” He also writes a newsletter called Faster, Please! “The two screamingly obvious things that we stopped doing is we stopped spending on science, research and development the way we did in the 1960s,” he tells me, “and we began to regulate our economy as if regulation would have no impact on innovation.”

    In this conversation, we debate why the ’70s were such an inflection point; whether this slowdown phenomenon is just something that happens as countries get wealthier; and what the government’s role should be in supporting and regulating emerging technologies like A.I.

    Mentioned:

    U.S. Infrastructure: 1929-2017” by Ray C. Fair

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    The Expanse series by James S.A. Corey

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    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 21, 2024

    The Disastrous Relationship Between Israel, Palestinians and the U.N.

    The Disastrous Relationship Between Israel, Palestinians and the U.N.

    The international legal system was created to prevent the atrocities of World War II from happening again. The United Nations partitioned historic Palestine to create the states of Israel and Palestine, but also left Palestinians with decades of false promises. The war in Gaza — and countless other conflicts, including those in Syria, Yemen and Ethiopia — shows how little power the U.N. and international law have to protect civilians in wartime. So what is international law actually for?

    Aslı Ü. Bâli is a professor at Yale Law School who specializes in international and comparative law. “The fact that people break the law and sometimes get away with it doesn’t mean the law doesn’t exist and doesn’t have force,” she argues.

    In this conversation, Bâli traces the gap between how international law is written on paper and the realpolitik of how countries decide to follow it, the U.N.’s unique role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from its very beginning, how the laws of war have failed Gazans but may be starting to change the conflict’s course, and more.

    Mentioned:

    With Schools in Ruins, Education in Gaza Will Be Hobbled for Years” by Liam Stack and Bilal Shbair

    Book Recommendations:

    Imperialism, Sovereignty and the Making of International Law by Antony Anghie

    Justice for Some by Noura Erakat

    Worldmaking After Empire by Adom Getachew

    The Constitutional Bind by Aziz Rana

    The United Nations and the Question of Palestine by Ardi Imseis

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Carole Sabouraud.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 17, 2024