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    The Biggest Political Divide Is Not Left vs. Right

    enJune 18, 2024

    Podcast Summary

    • Involvement DivideThe involvement divide in American politics is larger and harder to bridge than the left-right divide, with unengaged voters having different media habits and political thinking from the deeply engaged. Trump is currently winning them over.

      There's a significant divide in American politics between those who are deeply engaged and follow politics closely, and those who have a negative interest or avoid it altogether. This divide, known as the involvement divide, is larger and harder to bridge than the left-right political divide. The unengaged voters, who make up a substantial portion of the electorate, have different media habits and political thinking from the deeply engaged. They do vote, and Trump is currently winning them over. To reach and understand these voters, it's essential to recognize that their lack of interest in politics doesn't necessarily mean they don't care or don't vote. The challenge for politicians and media is to find ways to engage and communicate with this group effectively.

    • Media consumption and political engagementIndividuals who consume news from sources other than traditional digital news websites are more likely to vote for Donald Trump due to distrust of mainstream news or preference for anti-establishment views, potentially shifting the political landscape

      There are varying levels of political engagement among individuals, with some completely disengaged and unlikely to vote, while others, though not avid followers of politics, still participate in elections. A significant finding from recent data suggests that those who get their news from sources other than traditional digital news websites, such as social media, YouTube, and Google, are more likely to vote for Donald Trump. This trend may be due to a distrust of mainstream news or a preference for anti-establishment views. Historically, less politically engaged voters have leaned Democratic, but this dynamic may be shifting due to a fragmented media landscape and changing reasons for disengagement. The implications of these trends for the 2024 election and beyond are complex and multifaceted.

    • News consumption patterns and political engagementThe way people consume news and engage with politics has changed, resulting in a divide between hyper news consumers and those who avoid it. Understanding priorities and levels of engagement is crucial for political campaigns and policymakers.

      The way people consume news and engage with politics has changed significantly, leading to a divide between hyper news consumers and those who avoid it altogether. This shift in media consumption patterns is a result of the increased availability of news sources and the fragmentation of media. While some people are deeply engaged and follow the news constantly, others have other priorities and don't want to learn about politics. Furthermore, there are individuals whose political views may not align with the two major parties, leading them to feel unrepresented and disengaged from the political process. Research suggests that these less involved voters prioritize issues such as affordability and inflation over political events like attempts to subvert elections or criminal trials. Understanding these differences in priorities and levels of engagement is crucial for political campaigns and policymakers.

    • Income and Political EngagementHigher income individuals are more politically engaged and have a broader understanding of issues due to access to news and information, while less engaged voters prioritize economic issues based on personal experiences and cost of living concerns. Current economic climate may impact voter behavior towards President Biden.

      Income plays a significant role in political involvement and the issues that voters consider important. Those with higher incomes are more likely to be politically engaged and have a broader understanding of political issues, shaped by a steady diet of news and information. In contrast, less engaged voters may prioritize economic issues based on their personal experiences and the immediate cost of living concerns. This dynamic could explain why some voters are turning against President Biden in the current economic climate, marked by high inflation and affordability issues. The conviction of former President Trump on 34 felony counts has had limited impact on voter behavior, likely due to a lack of new information for some voters and cynicism towards the justice system for others.

    • Political cynicism and its impact on votersPolitical cynicism is deeply ingrained and makes it challenging to present new information to voters, especially those who are politically disengaged. The Trump impeachment trial and conviction served as an opportunity for this form of cynicism, but its impact on voter behavior is uncertain.

      The media environment allows for a culture of political cynicism, and people believe that expressing skepticism makes them appear politically knowledgeable. The Trump impeachment trial and conviction served as a ripe opportunity for this form of cynicism, particularly among politically disengaged voters, who were most likely to shift from Trump to Biden based on the news. However, it's uncertain if this shift will persist, as these voters may be easily influenced by other informational jolts throughout the campaign. The challenge for Democrats is deciding whether to focus on the Trump conviction in their advertising campaigns or not, as some voters, especially those who are politically disengaged and cynical, may view it as just another instance of political maneuvering. Cynicism around politics has become deeply ingrained, making it difficult to present new information that can move people. The longer a belief or idea is held, the harder it becomes to change it (pretreatment effect). Breaking through this cynicism and getting a picture into people's heads is a challenging task, especially for those who don't follow politics closely.

    • Disengaged audiences, unexpected sourcesReaching disengaged individuals requires understanding their information sources beyond traditional political news and engaging with influencers to build parasocial relationships

      Reaching people who are disengaged from traditional political news sources is a significant challenge. These individuals may not be avoiding politics altogether, but they are getting their information from unexpected places, such as influencers who are not primarily focused on politics. This trend, fueled by the rise of social media and alternative media, can make it difficult for institutional figures like Joe Biden to connect with these audiences. The research suggests that parasocial relationships, where individuals feel a sense of closeness to influencers, can be powerful in shaping political beliefs. However, for politicians and institutions, navigating this complex media landscape and reaching these audiences effectively is a formidable task.

    • Trust and Political EngagementDespite expressing distrust in mainstream news and skepticism towards politics, consistently high voter turnout and stable political engagement levels suggest a complex relationship. Engaging and addressing concerns and priorities is key to convincing people to care about politics and vote.

      Trust in mainstream news and political engagement are complex issues. People may express distrust in mainstream news and pride themselves on skepticism, but actually turning out to vote is a separate challenge. Third-party candidates face significant hurdles in securing votes, and the level of engagement and interest in politics tends to be stable over time. The hope that less engaged voters will become more involved and support a particular candidate closer to an election is not a guaranteed outcome. Convincing people of what they should care about is important, but acknowledging and addressing their concerns and priorities is equally crucial. As for book recommendations, "What Goes Without Saying" by Taylor Carlson and Jamie Settle, "Through the Grapevine" by Taylor Carlson, and "Sorry I'm Late. I Didn't Wanna Come" by Jessica Pan offer insights into communication, information dissemination, and dealing with differences.

    • Show production teamA diverse team of talented individuals, including Roland Hu, Elias Isketh, Kristen Lynn, Isaac Jones, Christina Samilewski, Shannon Busta, Andrew Strausser, and Sonia Herrero, collaborate to create high-quality content, innovative strategies, and engaging music for the show.

      The production team behind the show is a diverse and talented group of individuals. Roland Hu, Elias Isketh, and Kristen Lynn are part of the team, along with original music by Isaac Jones, audience strategy by Christina Samilewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times opinion audio is Andrew Strausser, and special thanks go out to Sonia Herrero. Each member brings unique skills and expertise to the table, ensuring the show's success. The team's collaboration results in high-quality content, innovative strategies, and engaging music. By working together, they create a dynamic and meaningful listening experience for audiences.

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    Trump’s new economic plan is terrible” by Matthew Yglesias

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    Book Recommendations:

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    Mentioned:

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    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump

    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump

    After Donald Trump was convicted last week in his hush-money trial, Republican leaders wasted no time in rallying behind him. There was no chance the Republican Party was going to replace Trump as their nominee at this point. Trump has essentially taken over the G.O.P.; his daughter-in-law is even co-chair of the Republican National Committee.

    How did the Republican Party get so weak that it could fall victim to a hostile takeover?

    Daniel Schlozman and Sam Rosenfeld are the authors of “The Hollow Parties: The Many Pasts and Disordered Present of American Party Politics,” which traces how both major political parties have been “hollowed out” over the decades, transforming once-powerful gatekeeping institutions into mere vessels for the ideologies of specific candidates. And they argue that this change has been perilous for our democracy.

    In this conversation, we discuss how the power of the parties has been gradually chipped away; why the Republican Party became less ideological and more geared around conflict; the merits of a stronger party system; and more.

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    Your Mind Is Being Fracked

    Your Mind Is Being Fracked

    The steady dings of notifications. The 40 tabs that greet you when you open your computer in the morning. The hundreds of unread emails, most of them spam, with subject lines pleading or screaming for you to click. Our attention is under assault these days, and most of us are familiar with the feeling that gives us — fractured, irritated, overwhelmed.

    D. Graham Burnett calls the attention economy an example of “human fracking”: With our attention in shorter and shorter supply, companies are going to even greater lengths to extract this precious resource from us. And he argues that it’s now reached a point that calls for a kind of revolution. “This is creating conditions that are at odds with human flourishing. We know this,” he tells me. “And we need to mount new forms of resistance.”

    Burnett is a professor of the history of science at Princeton University and is working on a book about the laboratory study of attention. He’s also a co-founder of the Strother School of Radical Attention, which is a kind of grass roots, artistic effort to create a curriculum for studying attention.

    In this conversation, we talk about how the 20th-century study of attention laid the groundwork for today’s attention economy, the connection between changing ideas of attention and changing ideas of the self, how we even define attention (this episode is worth listening to for Burnett’s collection of beautiful metaphors alone), whether the concern over our shrinking attention spans is simply a moral panic, what it means to teach attention and more.

    Mentioned:

    Friends of Attention

    The Battle for Attention” by Nathan Heller

    Powerful Forces Are Fracking Our Attention. We Can Fight Back.” by D. Graham Burnett, Alyssa Loh and Peter Schmidt

    Scenes of Attention edited by D. Graham Burnett and Justin E. H. Smith

    Book Recommendations:

    Addiction by Design by Natasha Dow Schüll

    Objectivity by Lorraine Daston and Peter L. Galison

    The Confidence-Man by Herman Melville

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Elias Isquith. Original music by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

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    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    A.I.-generated art has flooded the internet, and a lot of it is derivative, even boring or offensive. But what could it look like for artists to collaborate with A.I. systems in making art that is actually generative, challenging, transcendent?

    Holly Herndon offered one answer with her 2019 album “PROTO.” Along with Mathew Dryhurst and the programmer Jules LaPlace, she built an A.I. called “Spawn” trained on human voices that adds an uncanny yet oddly personal layer to the music. Beyond her music and visual art, Herndon is trying to solve a problem that many creative people are encountering as A.I. becomes more prominent: How do you encourage experimentation without stealing others’ work to train A.I. models? Along with Dryhurst, Jordan Meyer and Patrick Hoepner, she co-founded Spawning, a company figuring out how to allow artists — and all of us creating content on the internet — to “consent” to our work being used as training data.

    In this conversation, we discuss how Herndon collaborated with a human chorus and her “A.I. baby,” Spawn, on “PROTO”; how A.I. voice imitators grew out of electronic music and other musical genres; why Herndon prefers the term “collective intelligence” to “artificial intelligence”; why an “opt-in” model could help us retain more control of our work as A.I. trawls the internet for data; and much more.

    Mentioned:

    Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt” by Holly Herndon

    xhairymutantx” by Holly Herndon and Mat Dryhurst, for the Whitney Museum of Art

    Fade” by Holly Herndon

    Swim” by Holly Herndon

    Jolene” by Holly Herndon and Holly+

    Movement” by Holly Herndon

    Chorus” by Holly Herndon

    Godmother” by Holly Herndon

    The Precision of Infinity” by Jlin and Philip Glass

    Holly+

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    Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky

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    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

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    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 24, 2024

    A Conservative Futurist and a Supply-Side Liberal Walk Into a Podcast …

    A Conservative Futurist and a Supply-Side Liberal Walk Into a Podcast …

    “The Jetsons” premiered in 1962. And based on the internal math of the show, George Jetson, the dad, was born in 2022. He’d be a toddler right now. And we are so far away from the world that show imagined. There were a lot of future-trippers in the 1960s, and most of them would be pretty disappointed by how that future turned out.

    So what happened? Why didn’t we build that future?

    The answer, I think, lies in the 1970s. I’ve been spending a lot of time studying that decade in my work, trying to understand why America is so bad at building today. And James Pethokoukis has also spent a lot of time looking at the 1970s, in his work trying to understand why America is less innovative today than it was in the postwar decades. So Pethokoukis and I are asking similar questions, and circling the same time period, but from very different ideological vantages.

    Pethokoukis is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, and author of the book “The Conservative Futurist: How to Create the Sci-Fi World We Were Promised.” He also writes a newsletter called Faster, Please! “The two screamingly obvious things that we stopped doing is we stopped spending on science, research and development the way we did in the 1960s,” he tells me, “and we began to regulate our economy as if regulation would have no impact on innovation.”

    In this conversation, we debate why the ’70s were such an inflection point; whether this slowdown phenomenon is just something that happens as countries get wealthier; and what the government’s role should be in supporting and regulating emerging technologies like A.I.

    Mentioned:

    U.S. Infrastructure: 1929-2017” by Ray C. Fair

    Book Recommendations

    Why Information Grows by Cesar Hidalgo

    The Expanse series by James S.A. Corey

    The American Dream Is Not Dead by Michael R. Strain

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

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    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 21, 2024

    The Disastrous Relationship Between Israel, Palestinians and the U.N.

    The Disastrous Relationship Between Israel, Palestinians and the U.N.

    The international legal system was created to prevent the atrocities of World War II from happening again. The United Nations partitioned historic Palestine to create the states of Israel and Palestine, but also left Palestinians with decades of false promises. The war in Gaza — and countless other conflicts, including those in Syria, Yemen and Ethiopia — shows how little power the U.N. and international law have to protect civilians in wartime. So what is international law actually for?

    Aslı Ü. Bâli is a professor at Yale Law School who specializes in international and comparative law. “The fact that people break the law and sometimes get away with it doesn’t mean the law doesn’t exist and doesn’t have force,” she argues.

    In this conversation, Bâli traces the gap between how international law is written on paper and the realpolitik of how countries decide to follow it, the U.N.’s unique role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from its very beginning, how the laws of war have failed Gazans but may be starting to change the conflict’s course, and more.

    Mentioned:

    With Schools in Ruins, Education in Gaza Will Be Hobbled for Years” by Liam Stack and Bilal Shbair

    Book Recommendations:

    Imperialism, Sovereignty and the Making of International Law by Antony Anghie

    Justice for Some by Noura Erakat

    Worldmaking After Empire by Adom Getachew

    The Constitutional Bind by Aziz Rana

    The United Nations and the Question of Palestine by Ardi Imseis

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Carole Sabouraud.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 17, 2024