Logo
    Search

    Podcast Summary

    • TikTok's Data Practices and Chinese Government InfluenceTikTok, a Chinese-owned app with over 1.8 billion users, faces scrutiny over privacy concerns and Chinese government influence. The app tracks every keystroke and has been investigated by US authorities for potential data breaches and election interference.

      TikTok, a Chinese-owned social media app with over 1.8 billion projected users by the end of 2022, has raised significant concerns regarding privacy, security, and potential influence from the Chinese government. The app, which surpassed Google and Facebook as the most popular site on the internet in 2021, is under scrutiny for its data practices and corporate governance. The Chinese government, though not in control of TikTok, holds significant influence over it, and there have been reports of Chinese ByteDance staff accessing US TikTok user data. The US government, through various agencies and politicians, has taken steps to investigate and potentially remove TikTok from app stores due to these concerns. The app has responded by addressing election integrity and creating an election center for authoritative election information. The harms include surveillance and data gathering, with security and privacy researcher Felix Kraus revealing that TikTok tracks and captures every keystroke when users utilize the app's in-browser feature. This raises concerns about sensitive data being accessed and potentially falling into the wrong hands.

    • TikTok's data collection raises concerns for potential manipulation of personalized feedsTikTok's extensive user data collection, beyond location and browsing history, could enable manipulation of personalized feeds on a massive scale, with potential consequences in critical industries and public opinion.

      TikTok's collection of user data goes beyond location and browsing history, raising concerns about potential manipulation of personalized feeds to influence public opinion on a massive scale. This was illustrated by Facebook's experimentation with user emotions in 2014, but the implications are much greater for TikTok due to its popularity and the potential impact on critical industries like semiconductors. China, for instance, could use this power to sway public opinion during a conflict, such as a potential invasion of Taiwan. This selective amplification of information, or "ampliganda," could significantly influence people's attitudes and perceptions, akin to a magician focusing their audience's attention. The potential consequences are enormous, particularly if China were to take control of the Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company, which produces chips for various products worldwide. This underscores the importance of understanding the extent and potential misuse of personal data by popular social media platforms.

    • TikTok's Influence and Threat as a Cultural InfrastructureTikTok, as a powerful social media platform, shapes public opinion and accesses data, posing a significant influence and potential threat, particularly in geopolitical contexts. Its impact on youth culture, potential reach, and contrasting regulatory approaches warrant careful consideration.

      TikTok, as a powerful social media platform, poses a significant influence and potential threat due to its ability to shape public opinion and access to data, particularly in the context of geopolitical adversaries. This was illustrated through the example of Huawei and the Indian ban on Chinese apps, including TikTok. Huawei's cell phone infrastructure for 5G networks was found to have backdoors to the Chinese government, leading to concerns about national security. Similarly, TikTok can be seen as a form of cultural infrastructure, providing access not only to data but also the ability to influence minds and attention, particularly among youth culture. The potential reach and impact of this influence is immense, as shown by the survey revealing that the most inspired career for Gen Z in the US is to be an influencer, while in China, it's an astronaut or scientist. Additionally, China regulates TikTok domestically to feature educational content and limits usage for children under 14, highlighting the contrasting approaches to managing the platform's impact. The potential consequences of this influence are significant and warrant careful consideration.

    • Navigating the complexities of TikTok and free speechThe Chinese government's influence on TikTok's algorithm and the platform's parallel incentive system highlight the need to update our understanding of free speech and consider potential regulations to protect individual expression and democratic decision-making.

      The regulation of social media platforms like TikTok, and the value of free speech, are complex issues that require ongoing consideration and adaptation in the face of technological change. The Chinese government's influence over TikTok's algorithm and the potential for amplificanda to exploit free speech as written in 1791, highlight the need for updating our philosophical understanding of free speech to protect individual expression and democratic decision-making. Furthermore, TikTok's parallel incentive system, which pays users in the currency of likes, followers, and visibility, can be seen as a new form of currency that warrants further exploration and potential regulation. Ultimately, it's crucial for societies to prioritize psychosecurity, or the protection of minds and cultures from outside influences, as we continue to navigate the evolving digital landscape.

    • TikTok manipulates engagement supply on its platformTikTok's algorithm manipulation leads to cultural influence, potential authenticity issues, and challenges for governance due to personalized polarization in social media's business model

      TikTok, like a central bank, controls engagement supply on its platform. They can manipulate the algorithm to incentivize certain content and behaviors, leading to a cultural influence that tilts in a specific direction. This alternative incentive system, instead of paying users in dollars, pays them in infinite currency through increased likes, followers, and influence. In the past, TikTok was known for artificially inflating engagement numbers to attract users. However, due to the lack of checks and balances, there's no guarantee that engagement numbers are authentic. The consequences of this manipulation can be significant, as it can alter which platforms users choose to post on and even influence social learning. The inability to regulate social media effectively due to constant disagreement and polarization makes it challenging for governments to implement regulations. The business model of social media, which thrives on personalized polarization, makes consensus-building more difficult and can lead to a society that's less capable of governing. It's crucial to address these issues and find solutions to mitigate the negative effects of social media manipulation and polarization.

    • The complex relationship between technology, government, and society on social media platformsThe Biden administration's data protection order is a step towards addressing foreign surveillance, but more needs to be done to regulate social media platforms effectively, considering their impact on culture and addiction.

      The polarization created by social media platforms like TikTok can make it more difficult for the government to regulate these platforms effectively. The Biden administration's recent executive order aimed at protecting Americans' data from foreign surveillance is a step in the right direction, but it doesn't address the current issues with these platforms, such as the manipulation of culture and the addictive nature of short-form videos. The race to create the most engaging content is leading other platforms to copy the same features, creating a multipolar trap where companies feel they must continue to satisfy users' immediate dopamine needs. A potential solution could be stricter regulations on these platforms, but it's important to consider the potential consequences and alternatives. Overall, the conversation highlights the complex relationship between technology, government, and society, and the need for ongoing dialogue and action to address these challenges.

    • Social Media Platforms: Beyond Addiction to Foreign InfluenceSocial media platforms, like TikTok, can manipulate data to influence our thinking, causing harm. A ban could stop this, but geopolitical consequences exist. Instead, improving page loading times and maintaining transparency and security may reduce appeal without a ban.

      The issue with social media platforms like TikTok goes beyond just the addictive nature of these apps. While it's true that companies are in a race to capture our attention, leading to polarization and potential harm, there's an additional concern: the influence of foreign adversaries. Data, which fuels algorithms, can be manipulated to influence our thinking, creating a second form of harm. A ban on TikTok could stop this, but it comes with geopolitical consequences. Apple, a major player, faces challenges in taking unilateral action due to its significant business ties with China. Instead, a potential solution could be inspired by China's firewall, focusing on improving page loading times to increase user retention, while maintaining transparency and security. This approach could help reduce the appeal of addictive social media platforms without resorting to a ban.

    • Slow down apps based on risk levelInstead of relying solely on screen time limits, consider slowing down apps based on their risk level to target the reptile brain and reduce engagement.

      Instead of relying solely on screen time limits to reduce excessive usage of potentially harmful apps like TikTok, a more effective approach could be to slow down the apps based on their level of risk. This approach targets the reptile brain, which is responsible for the dopamine hits that keep users engaged, and can be more effective in reducing the desire to continue using the app. However, it's important to consider the potential implications and challenges of implementing such a solution, including the need for a fair and transparent process to prevent misuse and maintain net neutrality. Additionally, it's crucial to continue the conversation around the broader implications of technology on national security and geopolitical power.

    Recent Episodes from Your Undivided Attention

    Why Are Migrants Becoming AI Test Subjects? With Petra Molnar

    Why Are Migrants Becoming AI Test Subjects? With Petra Molnar

    Climate change, political instability, hunger. These are just some of the forces behind an unprecedented refugee crisis that’s expected to include over a billion people by 2050. In response to this growing crisis, wealthy governments like the US and the EU are employing novel AI and surveillance technologies to slow the influx of migrants at their borders. But will this rollout stop at the border?

    In this episode, Tristan and Aza sit down with Petra Molnar to discuss how borders have become a proving ground for the sharpest edges of technology, and especially AI. Petra is an immigration lawyer and co-creator of the Migration and Technology Monitor. Her new book is “The Walls Have Eyes: Surviving Migration in the Age of Artificial Intelligence.”

    RECOMMENDED MEDIA

    The Walls Have Eyes: Surviving Migration in the Age of Artificial Intelligence

    Petra’s newly published book on the rollout of high risk tech at the border.

    Bots at the Gate

    A report co-authored by Petra about Canada’s use of AI technology in their immigration process.

    Technological Testing Grounds

    A report authored by Petra about the use of experimental technology in EU border enforcement.

    Startup Pitched Tasing Migrants from Drones, Video Reveals

    An article from The Intercept, containing the demo for Brinc’s taser drone pilot program.

    The UNHCR

    Information about the global refugee crisis from the UN.

    RECOMMENDED YUA EPISODES

    War is a Laboratory for AI with Paul Scharre

    No One is Immune to AI Harms with Dr. Joy Buolamwini

    Can We Govern AI? With Marietje Schaake

    CLARIFICATION:

    The iBorderCtrl project referenced in this episode was a pilot project that was discontinued in 2019

    Former OpenAI Engineer William Saunders on Silence, Safety, and the Right to Warn

    Former OpenAI Engineer William Saunders on Silence, Safety, and the Right to Warn

    This week, a group of current and former employees from Open AI and Google Deepmind penned an open letter accusing the industry’s leading companies of prioritizing profits over safety. This comes after a spate of high profile departures from OpenAI, including co-founder Ilya Sutskever and senior researcher Jan Leike, as well as reports that OpenAI has gone to great lengths to silence would-be whistleblowers. 

    The writers of the open letter argue that researchers have a “right to warn” the public about AI risks and laid out a series of principles that would protect that right. In this episode, we sit down with one of those writers: William Saunders, who left his job as a research engineer at OpenAI in February. William is now breaking the silence on what he saw at OpenAI that compelled him to leave the company and to put his name to this letter. 

    RECOMMENDED MEDIA 

    The Right to Warn Open Letter 

    My Perspective On "A Right to Warn about Advanced Artificial Intelligence": A follow-up from William about the letter

     Leaked OpenAI documents reveal aggressive tactics toward former employees: An investigation by Vox into OpenAI’s policy of non-disparagement.

    RECOMMENDED YUA EPISODES

    1. A First Step Toward AI Regulation with Tom Wheeler 
    2. Spotlight on AI: What Would It Take For This to Go Well? 
    3. Big Food, Big Tech and Big AI with Michael Moss 
    4. Can We Govern AI? with Marietje Schaake

    Your Undivided Attention is produced by the Center for Humane Technology. Follow us on Twitter: @HumaneTech_

    War is a Laboratory for AI with Paul Scharre

    War is a Laboratory for AI with Paul Scharre

    Right now, militaries around the globe are investing heavily in the use of AI weapons and drones.  From Ukraine to Gaza, weapons systems with increasing levels of autonomy are being used to kill people and destroy infrastructure and the development of fully autonomous weapons shows little signs of slowing down. What does this mean for the future of warfare? What safeguards can we put up around these systems? And is this runaway trend toward autonomous warfare inevitable or will nations come together and choose a different path? In this episode, Tristan and Daniel sit down with Paul Scharre to try to answer some of these questions. Paul is a former Army Ranger, the author of two books on autonomous weapons and he helped the Department of Defense write a lot of its policy on the use of AI in weaponry. 

    RECOMMENDED MEDIA

    Four Battlegrounds: Power in the Age of Artificial Intelligence: Paul’s book on the future of AI in war, which came out in 2023.

    Army of None: Autonomous Weapons and the Future of War: Paul’s 2018 book documenting and predicting the rise of autonomous and semi-autonomous weapons as part of modern warfare.

    The Perilous Coming Age of AI Warfare: How to Limit the Threat of Autonomous Warfare: Paul’s article in Foreign Affairs based on his recent trip to the battlefield in Ukraine.

    The night the world almost almost ended: A BBC documentary about Stanislav Petrov’s decision not to start nuclear war.

    AlphaDogfight Trials Final Event: The full simulated dogfight between an AI and human pilot. The AI pilot swept, 5-0.

    RECOMMENDED YUA EPISODES

    1. The AI ‘Race’: China vs. the US with Jeffrey Ding and Karen Hao
    2. Can We Govern AI? with Marietje Schaake
    3. Big Food, Big Tech and Big AI with Michael Moss
    4. The Invisible Cyber-War with Nicole Perlroth

    Your Undivided Attention is produced by the Center for Humane Technology. Follow us on Twitter: @HumaneTech_

    AI and Jobs: How to Make AI Work With Us, Not Against Us With Daron Acemoglu

    AI and Jobs: How to Make AI Work With Us, Not Against Us With Daron Acemoglu

    Tech companies say that AI will lead to massive economic productivity gains. But as we know from the first digital revolution, that’s not what happened. Can we do better this time around?

    RECOMMENDED MEDIA

    Power and Progress by Daron Acemoglu and Simon Johnson Professor Acemoglu co-authored a bold reinterpretation of economics and history that will fundamentally change how you see the world

    Can we Have Pro-Worker AI? Professor Acemoglu co-authored this paper about redirecting AI development onto the human-complementary path

    Rethinking Capitalism: In Conversation with Daron Acemoglu The Wheeler Institute for Business and Development hosted Professor Acemoglu to examine how technology affects the distribution and growth of resources while being shaped by economic and social incentives

    RECOMMENDED YUA EPISODES

    1. The Three Rules of Humane Tech
    2. The Tech We Need for 21st Century Democracy
    3. Can We Govern AI?
    4. An Alternative to Silicon Valley Unicorns

    Your Undivided Attention is produced by the Center for Humane Technology. Follow us on Twitter: @HumaneTech_

    Jonathan Haidt On How to Solve the Teen Mental Health Crisis

    Jonathan Haidt On How to Solve the Teen Mental Health Crisis

    Suicides. Self harm. Depression and anxiety. The toll of a social media-addicted, phone-based childhood has never been more stark. It can be easy for teens, parents and schools to feel like they’re trapped by it all. But in this conversation with Tristan Harris, author and social psychologist Jonathan Haidt makes the case that the conditions that led to today’s teenage mental health crisis can be turned around – with specific, achievable actions we all can take starting today.

    This episode was recorded live at the San Francisco Commonwealth Club.  

    Correction: Tristan mentions that 40 Attorneys General have filed a lawsuit against Meta for allegedly fostering addiction among children and teens through their products. However, the actual number is 42 Attorneys General who are taking legal action against Meta.

    Clarification: Jonathan refers to the Wait Until 8th pledge. By signing the pledge, a parent  promises not to give their child a smartphone until at least the end of 8th grade. The pledge becomes active once at least ten other families from their child’s grade pledge the same.

    Chips Are the Future of AI. They’re Also Incredibly Vulnerable. With Chris Miller

    Chips Are the Future of AI. They’re Also Incredibly Vulnerable. With Chris Miller

    Beneath the race to train and release more powerful AI models lies another race: a race by companies and nation-states to secure the hardware to make sure they win AI supremacy. 

    Correction: The latest available Nvidia chip is the Hopper H100 GPU, which has 80 billion transistors. Since the first commercially available chip had four transistors, the Hopper actually has 20 billion times that number. Nvidia recently announced the Blackwell, which boasts 208 billion transistors - but it won’t ship until later this year.

    RECOMMENDED MEDIA 

    Chip War: The Fight For the World’s Most Critical Technology by Chris Miller

    To make sense of the current state of politics, economics, and technology, we must first understand the vital role played by chips

    Gordon Moore Biography & Facts

    Gordon Moore, the Intel co-founder behind Moore's Law, passed away in March of 2023

    AI’s most popular chipmaker Nvidia is trying to use AI to design chips faster

    Nvidia's GPUs are in high demand - and the company is using AI to accelerate chip production

    RECOMMENDED YUA EPISODES

    Future-proofing Democracy In the Age of AI with Audrey Tang

    How Will AI Affect the 2024 Elections? with Renee DiResta and Carl Miller

    The AI ‘Race’: China vs. the US with Jeffrey Ding and Karen Hao

    Protecting Our Freedom of Thought with Nita Farahany

    Your Undivided Attention is produced by the Center for Humane Technology. Follow us on Twitter: @HumaneTech_

     

     

    Future-proofing Democracy In the Age of AI with Audrey Tang

    Future-proofing Democracy In the Age of AI with Audrey Tang

    What does a functioning democracy look like in the age of artificial intelligence? Could AI even be used to help a democracy flourish? Just in time for election season, Taiwan’s Minister of Digital Affairs Audrey Tang returns to the podcast to discuss healthy information ecosystems, resilience to cyberattacks, how to “prebunk” deepfakes, and more. 

    RECOMMENDED MEDIA 

    Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens by Martin Gilens and Benjamin I. Page

    This academic paper addresses tough questions for Americans: Who governs? Who really rules? 

    Recursive Public

    Recursive Public is an experiment in identifying areas of consensus and disagreement among the international AI community, policymakers, and the general public on key questions of governance

    A Strong Democracy is a Digital Democracy

    Audrey Tang’s 2019 op-ed for The New York Times

    The Frontiers of Digital Democracy

    Nathan Gardels interviews Audrey Tang in Noema

    RECOMMENDED YUA EPISODES 

    Digital Democracy is Within Reach with Audrey Tang

    The Tech We Need for 21st Century Democracy with Divya Siddarth

    How Will AI Affect the 2024 Elections? with Renee DiResta and Carl Miller

    The AI Dilemma

    Your Undivided Attention is produced by the Center for Humane Technology. Follow us on Twitter: @HumaneTech_

    U.S. Senators Grilled Social Media CEOs. Will Anything Change?

    U.S. Senators Grilled Social Media CEOs. Will Anything Change?

    Was it political progress, or just political theater? The recent Senate hearing with social media CEOs led to astonishing moments — including Mark Zuckerberg’s public apology to families who lost children following social media abuse. Our panel of experts, including Facebook whistleblower Frances Haugen, untangles the explosive hearing, and offers a look ahead, as well. How will this hearing impact protocol within these social media companies? How will it impact legislation? In short: will anything change?

    Clarification: Julie says that shortly after the hearing, Meta’s stock price had the biggest increase of any company in the stock market’s history. It was the biggest one-day gain by any company in Wall Street history.

    Correction: Frances says it takes Snap three or four minutes to take down exploitative content. In Snap's most recent transparency report, they list six minutes as the median turnaround time to remove exploitative content.

    RECOMMENDED MEDIA 

    Get Media Savvy

    Founded by Julie Scelfo, Get Media Savvy is a non-profit initiative working to establish a healthy media environment for kids and families

    The Power of One by Frances Haugen

    The inside story of France’s quest to bring transparency and accountability to Big Tech

    RECOMMENDED YUA EPISODES

    Real Social Media Solutions, Now with Frances Haugen

    A Conversation with Facebook Whistleblower Frances Haugen

    Are the Kids Alright?

    Social Media Victims Lawyer Up with Laura Marquez-Garrett

    Your Undivided Attention is produced by the Center for Humane Technology. Follow us on Twitter: @HumaneTech_

     

     

    Taylor Swift is Not Alone: The Deepfake Nightmare Sweeping the Internet

    Taylor Swift is Not Alone: The Deepfake Nightmare Sweeping the Internet

    Over the past year, a tsunami of apps that digitally strip the clothes off real people has hit the market. Now anyone can create fake non-consensual sexual images in just a few clicks. With cases proliferating in high schools, guest presenter Laurie Segall talks to legal scholar Mary Anne Franks about the AI-enabled rise in deep fake porn and what we can do about it. 

    Correction: Laurie refers to the app 'Clothes Off.' It’s actually named Clothoff. There are many clothes remover apps in this category.

    RECOMMENDED MEDIA 

    Revenge Porn: The Cyberwar Against Women

    In a five-part digital series, Laurie Segall uncovers a disturbing internet trend: the rise of revenge porn

    The Cult of the Constitution

    In this provocative book, Mary Anne Franks examines the thin line between constitutional fidelity and constitutional fundamentalism

    Fake Explicit Taylor Swift Images Swamp Social Media

    Calls to protect women and crack down on the platforms and technology that spread such images have been reignited

    RECOMMENDED YUA EPISODES 

    No One is Immune to AI Harms

    Esther Perel on Artificial Intimacy

    Social Media Victims Lawyer Up

    The AI Dilemma

    Your Undivided Attention is produced by the Center for Humane Technology. Follow us on Twitter: @HumaneTech_

    Can Myth Teach Us Anything About the Race to Build Artificial General Intelligence? With Josh Schrei

    Can Myth Teach Us Anything About the Race to Build Artificial General Intelligence? With Josh Schrei

    We usually talk about tech in terms of economics or policy, but the casual language tech leaders often use to describe AI — summoning an inanimate force with the powers of code — sounds more... magical. So, what can myth and magic teach us about the AI race? Josh Schrei, mythologist and host of The Emerald podcast,  says that foundational cultural tales like "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" or Prometheus teach us the importance of initiation, responsibility, human knowledge, and care.  He argues these stories and myths can guide ethical tech development by reminding us what it is to be human. 

    Correction: Josh says the first telling of "The Sorcerer’s Apprentice" myth dates back to ancient Egypt, but it actually dates back to ancient Greece.

    RECOMMENDED MEDIA 

    The Emerald podcast

    The Emerald explores the human experience through a vibrant lens of myth, story, and imagination

    Embodied Ethics in The Age of AI

    A five-part course with The Emerald podcast’s Josh Schrei and School of Wise Innovation’s Andrew Dunn

    Nature Nurture: Children Can Become Stewards of Our Delicate Planet

    A U.S. Department of the Interior study found that the average American kid can identify hundreds of corporate logos but not plants and animals

    The New Fire

    AI is revolutionizing the world - here's how democracies can come out on top. This upcoming book was authored by an architect of President Biden's AI executive order

    RECOMMENDED YUA EPISODES 

    How Will AI Affect the 2024 Elections?

    The AI Dilemma

    The Three Rules of Humane Tech

    AI Myths and Misconceptions

     

    Your Undivided Attention is produced by the Center for Humane Technology. Follow us on Twitter: @HumaneTech_

    Related Episodes

    Shunya One X AID with Shiladitya, Amit Doshi & Varun Duggirala

    Shunya One X AID with Shiladitya, Amit Doshi & Varun Duggirala
    It's a special episode on Shunya one with Varun Duggirala from Advertising is Dead joining Shiladitya and Amit for a candid chat on the rise of live streaming, social media laws, and D2C branding. They discuss how radio evolved into podcasts that further evolved into platforms like Clubhouse and Twitter spaces, how have the consumption patterns been so far, list their preferences and experiences on the mentioned platforms, etc. Then they go on to talk about the legality of these platforms, copyright issues that might arise, how brands can use them to their advantage, etc. And lastly, they shed light on D2C brands, their pros and cons and list some of their favourites.


    Follow Varun Duggirala on Instagram & Twitter:


    Tweet to hosts @shiladitya & @doshiamit for your questions or reactions to this
    episode.


    To
    join the Shunya One slack channel, request for an invite here:
    http://ivmpodcasts.com/shunyaone


    You
    can listen to this show and other awesome shows on the IVM Podcasts app on Android: https://ivm.today/android or iOS: https://ivm.today/ios, or any other podcast app.
    You can check out our website at http://www.ivmpodcasts.com/

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    NTWRK + Whatnot Raise More $$, and Twitter Commerce

    NTWRK + Whatnot Raise More $$, and Twitter Commerce

    The Livestream Commerce market in the US continues its rapid expansion. Whatnot just raised a $150 million Series C, valuing it at $1.5 billion and its third fundraise of 2021. And NTWRK raised a $50 million Series C (we estimate valuation at $300 - 400 million). 

    Chris and Andrew discuss each platform's different programming strategies (UGC scale VS premium O&O),  niche to adjacent vertical growth strategies, cap table alignment, expected market consolidation, and what role Twitter can play in social commerce.

    Subscribe to our newsletter. We explore the intersection of media, technology, and commerce: sign-up link

    Learn more about our market research and executive advisory: RockWater website

    Email us: rounduppod@wearerockwater.com

    --

    EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

    Chris Erwin:

    So Andrew, a few weeks ago, there was two big announcements about livestream commerce fundraises. Were you tracking this?

     

    Andrew Cohen:

    Yeah. Of course. Livestream commerce finally broke into the unicorn status. We've got a billion dollar valuation. And I love to say, "I told you so," so I was very happy to see that.

     

    Chris Erwin:

    So there's two big fundraises that caught our eye. We've been tracking this space over the last couple years ever since we saw some of the initial growth figures in China, which were in the hundreds of billions forecast over the next few years. And we're like, "This is something we got to pay attention to in the US." So building off of our research and some of our other reporting, here's two big deals. So Whatnot raised $150 million series C at a $1.5 billion valuation. It's its third round of fundraising just in 2021 alone. Some key figures, GMV is up 30x since March, and there's a couple thousand active livestream sellers on the platform. Use of funds - they plan to launch an NFT vertical, expand into thousands of potential new commerce categories.

     

    Chris Erwin:

    That's up from the hundreds that the founder had said I think just a few months ago in the last round of funding, they're going to rebuild their mobile apps for iOS and Android. And they're going to launch a pre-bidding feature. The second big capital raise is for NTWRK. They raised a $50 million series C. So the valuation was undisclosed, but our guess is assuming that they're giving up 10 to 20% of their cap table, valuation's probably in a $300 to 400 million-ish range. So some key figures, Andrew. To date, they've had two and a half million app installs. From a conversion rate perspective of how many of their viewers convert to paying customers - I think that's our assumption of definition, but they're saying it's 10 to 15% in the low end and 70% on the high end. I find that very high, I'm a little bit skeptical, but think it all depends on the definition.

     

    Chris Erwin:

    Also of note 250,000 attendees from one of its virtual shopping festivals called Transfer, right,

    this is NTWRK's flagship festival that celebrates culture and design. Not a surprise here since their founder and CEO comes from a very strong events background. So use of funds - they're going to expand into NFTs like Whatnot. They're going to expand their marketplaces, including sneaker resale, trading cards and vintage items. They're going to be ramping up their marketing and also expanding their premium, original content and quote on quote shopping festivals. Then of note, there's a rumor that Twitter is going to be launching a livestream shopping product as well. So Andrew let's break down Whatnot versus NTWRK. And I think you have some thoughts here.

     

    Andrew Cohen:

    Yes, Let's get into it. So some differences, some similarities. Let's start with the differences. To me, the biggest difference between NTWRK and Whatnot is Whatnot is much more similar to the major Chinese livestream shopping platforms that we've seen like Taobao Live, Pinduoduo, which are basically UGC marketplaces.

     

    Andrew Cohen:

    Whatnot does have, you have to be a verified seller and you have to apply to be able to sell on their platform. But it's a model that is more made for scale. So think about like eBay, but if you are enabled with all of the tools and capabilities of a live streamer. So you can go on, if you are a collector of trading cards and you want to buy or sell and you can get on and on either side of this marketplace, engage. On the other end of the spectrum is NTWRK, which I would say what it lacks in scale, it makes up for in conversion rate, Chris, as you mentioned too at the top because it's not a UGC platform.

     

    Andrew Cohen:

    It's actually, they take a much more highly curated and premium and selective approach to their content and their programming. They have original content franchises and formats around. They have one around the comic books. They have one around trading cards and each one has a host. I think the host for their training card show is Scott from HQ Trivia. And apparently for some of these shows that have production statuses of up to 35 people. So it's kind of, I would say they go less wide than Whatnot, but definitely go a lot deeper. And then on the other end, they also have these festivals that you spoke to, which are also big in China.

     

    Andrew Cohen:

    We've talked a lot about Alibaba Singles Day. So what NTWRK does here is, they theme the shopping festivals around certain categories. So they've done ones around sports. The one you mentioned is around design. And so they're really good at rallying around talent and premium content to draw in audiences and drive conversions versus Whatnot, which is more about just like training ecosystem and letting the buyers and sellers do their thing.

     

    Chris Erwin:

    So it raises some questions, Andrew. And so what I am wondering about is what is the business model advantage of each? And so I think about NTWRK and if they're going after more premium, original and curated content, is it because do they perceive that there's going to be a market for them to syndicate some of their original livestream commerce programming. For example, are these new FAST platforms going to start to integrate shoppable commerce into their linear streams? And is that going to be a really lucrative market? And if NTWRK is pre-creating best in class livestream commerce content, then they're going to be the go-to player for that. I also wonder about for some of the social platforms that are going to be licensing content in the future as TikTok is making a lot of very rapid advances into social commerce, right?

     

    Chris Erwin:

    We've seen their Shopify partnership and more. Are they going to be interested in potentially licensing like high quality livestream commerce content? I think that NTWRK has done a partnership with Snap. I'm not sure about TikTok, something may have happened, but maybe there's a bigger market there that NTWRK knows more about than we do. I also think about NTWRK with its higher quality programming, is it trying to go after the biggest and most premium talent and designer collaborators that are going to say, "Hey, NTWRK is our destination and partner platform for who we want to be in business with. The longer tail UGC non-premium creators and sellers, they'll go to the Whatnots of the world, but we want to go to NTWRK." And that's the business model that the NTWRK platform gets excited about. That's what I'm riffing on.

     

    Andrew Cohen:

    Totally. And I think it's a bit of a fork in the road moment for livestream commerce in the US from a content perspective, as all these other platforms are getting into it as Facebook and Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, are all figuring out what livestream shopping is going to be on their platform. What's it going to look and feel like. These are really two distinct models. Is it going to go the kind of high-end premium programming route, or is it going to be more of the UGC marketplace route? I think it's interesting to see how that plays out right now. Whatnot has the higher valuation, but like you said, NTWRK’s model is able to attract much more high-end premium partners and promote the creator and brand side to the max. So it's going to be interesting to see how it all unfolds.

     

    Chris Erwin:

    Maybe it's like the HBOMax versus Netflix parallel.

     

    Andrew Cohen:

    Exactly.

     

    Chris Erwin:

    All right. So Andrew and I think you noted that there's some key similarities as well. What does those include?

     

    Andrew Cohen:

    Yes, for sure. There's a few. So one is that we're seeing both of them do is starting from kind of a core niche in terms of its category focus and then expanding into adjacent verticals over time. And we've talked about this with our clients in the space that that's really the best pathway to grow and scale in livestream shopping is to own your niche. For NTWRK, it was kind of the streetwear crowd. For Whatnot, it was the collectibles crowd in the toy space. And then how do you kind of find these organic adjacencies that were, it can still be kind of organic to your brand and to your fan base, but also allow you to broaden the tent and expand out. So, we're seeing Whatnot and NTWRK both do that. Whatnot is expanding from collectibles. Right now their top categories are sports cards, Pokemon cards, and Funko toys. To now, as you mentioned the founder saying he sees potential to expand into thousands of new commerce categories.

     

    Andrew Cohen:

    For NTWRK, they start off with just limited edition pop culture-inspired product drops, things like merge, apparel memorabilia. Now they said after this round, they're going to expand into sneaker resale, trading cards and vintage. So it's definitely interesting to see that they're taking this similar model. And I'm curious how this is going to affect the other more niche emerging upstarts in this space because there's companies that focus on books. There's ones that focus on beauty and fashion like PopShop and ShopShops. And are they going to be kind of owning their niche and then expanding out into Whatnot and NTWRK’s territory? Is there going to be consolidation and acquisition? I think it's going to be really interesting to see how this kind of selection of product category and creator focus trickles down to user acquisition strategy because that's really going to be what fuels scale.

     

    Chris Erwin:

    I think a mantra that we've seen in the media space is that it's going to be grow or die, right? I think some of the biggest media companies started out with a certain niche and then they best understand their customers. What else do their audiences want? And then service them in different waves with different content. Look at Bill Simmons with The Ringer and The Boston Sports Guy. He started out as just a sports personality and then moved into pop culture and film and food and more, right? Same thing with Barstool Sports. Same thing with Complex started out as hip-hop and street wear and then had a major moves into food media and food commerce. And so I think for these platforms, they're going to need to expand into different verticals. And those who don't are either going to die on the vine or they're going to be gobbled up in a consolidation play.

     

    Andrew Cohen:

    Yep. Much like media. It's all about how can you expand, broaden your tent while still remaining true to that kind of core brand identity.

     

    Chris Erwin:

    Andrew, what else are you seeing?

     

    Andrew Cohen:

    Another similarity between NTWRK and Whatnot is that both companies during this round have brought on some pretty noteworthy strategic investors. So for NTWRK, one of their lead investors is Kering, a major global owner of luxury brands like Gucci, YSL, Balenciaga, and many others, Main Street Advisors whose LPs include Jimmy Iovine, Drake, LeBron James, and other big celebrities, Live Nation and Foot Locker. For Whatnot, they brought on a16z, who is really big in the creator economy space, CapitalG, which is Google's venture fund. YouTube is really getting into livestream shopping as well, a Google subsidiary, and then plus influencers and celebrities like Logan Paul, and NBA players Andre Iguodala and Zion Williamson. So, I think that this is really interesting from both ends kind of the synergistic opportunities here.

     

    Andrew Cohen:

    I think companies like Kering, looking at how NTWRK can possibly be an incubation play for a social commerce sales channel for a lot of their brands. Similar to other investors like Critic, LeBron, and Live Nation - NTWRK has already worked with them on some limited edition tour merch for Drake and Live Nation, a16z, Foot Locker on the cap table, as they mentioned that they want to get into the sneaker and sneaker resale market. So for all of these, as they're trying to modernize their core businesses and move towards digital transformation NTWRK is a really interesting bet for them that couldn't really work. On the other end with Whatnot, as I said, a16z and Google are both getting into creator economy and live selling space. So this is really synergistic for them, but also seeing the big celebrities getting involved again, that was one of the big differentiators between Whatnot and NTWRK is that NTWRK had more premium personalities, whereas Whatnot was more like user sellers.

     

    Andrew Cohen:

    Now with people like Logan Paul getting into the mix, maybe that changes and much like Big KOL is like buy on Taobao, this becomes the platform where big traders go to engage with and sell their audience in a live format.

     

    Chris Erwin:

    Yeah. Couple of notes here, Andrew, I think it's really smart of NTWRK where they are matching their cap table and investors to their business model. Right? Whereas we just discussed earlier, their business model is development of premium, original livestream, commerce programming, going deeper with their core fans. And so then having retailers and brand owners as their investors like Foot Locker and like Kering, which owns a whole portfolio of luxury brands that have proven to be. I was just riffing on this with our in-house fashion expert, Mike Booth this morning, it includes Balenciaga. And a lot of these luxury fashion brands have been very early movers and experimenting in social commerce to reach those younger audiences as I think they've seen that their customers have aged up over the years and they really want to start catering to millennials and Gen Z. So Balenciaga, which just announced, I think a big Fortnite partnership to create both digital and physical goods over the past month that wasn't their first move into the metaverse.

     

    Chris Erwin:

    They actually used the Unreal engine that powers Fortnite to launch, I think their own metaverse environment. I think about a year, year and a half ago. I really liked them as leading this investment round for NTWRK. Yeah, and for Whatnot, I think look with Logan Paul and Jake Paul, and speaking of like moment driven zeitgeist content and commerce, those two brothers have done incredible things in creator competitions and driven incredible scale revenues, which we've talked about in other roundups. So I like seeing them on the cap table for Whatnot as well.

     

    Andrew Cohen:

    One last similarity, and then we can touch quickly on the Twitter rumors, between NTWRK and Whatnot is that both announced that with this round, they're going to be getting more into NFTs and NTWRK's already done some work in NFTs, they plan to expand. Whatnot wants to a launch an NFT vertical. This really just caught my eye. I didn't get many details from it, but we've seen before that there's a huge overlap between live content and NFTs. Kind of the power of the moment of that, "I was there," has real social currency to it and now NFTs, there's kind of a way to monetize and cement that value around that social currency of “I was there when that moment happened.” And so I think it's going to be really interesting to see that combined with actual physical products and what can be the confluence of live selling of physical and virtual products and where NFTs will fit into this experience. What do you think, Chris?

     

    Chris Erwin:

    I want to be sensitive to the time for our listeners, Andrew. So let's transition to this final beats about Twitter rumors. Like we were talking about just before we started recording, there's really no details out yet on this. We saw people talking about it in the Twittersphere and in some of our executive circles that Twitter is going to get into livestream shopping, unclear what that exactly looks like, but it signals how big a market opportunity that this is viewed by where Twitter, one of the largest tech and social platforms that's out there, is realizing it doesn't want to miss out on what can be a major revenue opportunity. Now I think it raises some questions of, does it make sense for Twitter and what is their angle? Right? I think Twitter is very much known for having these really unique interest graphs around different topics and different personalities.

     

    Chris Erwin:

    The thing is, if you want to understand user behavior on Twitter with livestream commerce, is it going to better function as entertainment, which maybe we see on some of these other platforms or is it maybe a place where from these trusted interest graft and personalities that people follow, getting recommendations about products, getting some trusted input and reviews and advice about how to use the products and what is high quality and what is not? I think it raises the point of what is the angle that Twitter's going to take, that's going to be different from what we're seeing other platforms do, based on its core user experience?

     

    Andrew Cohen:

    I'm interested to see where they're going with this. We haven't gotten many details at all. Shopping definitely doesn't really seem native to the Twitter user experience, but live does, it's definitely a very always on platform. So curious to see how they can kind of start to incent, and incubate, maybe a bit more of a shopping mindset from all their personalities that are kind of always on in that live medium of Twitter and combine those elements. They were early on live streaming with Periscope, seems to be late on commerce. So let's see if they can put it all together because it's definitely a competitive space at the top with Amazon, Twitch, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, all getting into it.

     

    Chris Erwin:

    All right, Andrew, I think we are beyond time. So till next time.

     

    Andrew Cohen:

    Sounds good. See you then.

     

    MrBeast Graces the Cover of Forbes, TikTok Gets Banned, Instagram Updates and Cameo Launches Cameo Kids!

    MrBeast Graces the Cover of Forbes, TikTok Gets Banned, Instagram Updates and Cameo Launches Cameo Kids!

    In this special episode:   

    • Jimmy Donaldson, MrBeast, is on the cover of Forbes. Launches Gift Cards. And Feastables are back.
    • TikTok is back in the headlines. The Senate Passed a bill to ban TikTok on government devices. What is the Anti-Social CCP Act? We’ll help you out. 
    • Instagram has a ton of new updates. Is it the End of TikTok? Or an attack on Snapchat? 
    • Cameo collabs with Candle Media and creates Cameo Kids! Pretty cool for Cocomelon and Blippi and just kids’ space in general.
    • Dr. Suess’ Vlog – it’s a thing!  

    Check out Jellysmack and their awesome blog!

    Also our sponsor – Amaze.co – Check them out!  

    We have a YouTube Page!  Please subscribe and follow. (Thank you!

    Catch a new episode every Friday on your favorite podcasting site. Please subscribe, like, and share! Visit our website www.creatorupload.com. We love hearing from you!   

    Creator Upload Socials:

    YOUTUBE

    INSTAGRAM

    TIKTOK

    Teaching the Art of Social Media with Bob Cargill

    Teaching the Art of Social Media with Bob Cargill

    This week on the podcast, our special guest is Bob Cargill. Bob was the New England Direct Marketing Association’s Direct Marketer of the Year in 2009 and is an adjunct professor, copywriter, content cre­ator, social media consultant, and public speaker who has worked for some 500 or so different clients over the years.

    His work has been recognized with over 40 awards from the New England Direct Marketing Association, including Gold for his blog on marketing, Gold for Best Tweets, Silver for Best Copywriting, and two Silvers for his video series about social media on LinkedIn.

     We obviously spoke a ton about the power of social media but Bob is also a great teacher with valuable anecdotes to tell. Listen now on Spotify, Apple, and Amazon to hear more!  

    Podcast: www.bobcargill.podbean.com
    LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/bobcargill
    Twitter: www.twitter.com/thebobcargill
    Facebook: www.facebook.com/thebobcargill
    YouTube: www.youtube.com/bobcargill
    Instagram: www.instagram.com/bobcargill
    TikTok: www.tiktok.com/@thebobcargill
    Pinterest: www.pinterest.com/bobcargill

    The Resume Rescue Website: https://theresumerescue.com/
    Facebook/Instagram/Tiktok: @theresumerescue

    Warning: Some episodes contain explicit language. Please proceed with caution.