forward together

Adriann Barboa is a New Mexico policy director of Forward Together, an organization dedicated to ensuring "rights, recognition, and resources for all families" that recently led a people-powered coalition to defeat state infringements on access to reproductive healthcare. In this interview, we hear how Forward Together, Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains, and other groups fight every day to protect the rights and dignity of our most vulnerable communities.

Show Notes:
Forward Together
Art as Power Program
Forward Together Art Feed
On Bustle –  How Indigenous Women Repealed New Mexico’s Longstanding Abortion Ban
The Road to Reproductive Justice: Native Americans in New Mexico
Attitudes Towards Reproductive Health in Among Rural New Mexicans

If you enjoy Mile High Theology and want this programming to continue, support Saint John's Cathedral by giving at sjcathedral.org/give.
This podcast was recorded on the land of Ute, Cheyenne, and Araphao peoples.

Forward Together is an intervention service that works with clients to overcome various challenges. We are specialists in handling substance abuse and have many years of experience in the Mental health sector. We understand the challenges and the hidden sentence that family members face, when a loved one has an addiction to using drugs and alcohol. For example, this could be Illicit drugs including over-the-counter or prescribed medication from the GP.

Our Staff are people who have gone through Substance abuse, addictions and related issues in the past. They are now leading happy lives and use proven techniques in helping others overcome addictions and drug abuse.

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A Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland is overdue and would protect the interests and concerns of all the population, insists Colin Harvey, professor of human rights at Queen’s University, Belfast.  He was talking in the latest Forward Together podcast from the Holywell Trust.

The Good Friday Agreement provided the expectation that there would be a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland that would safeguard citizens’ rights. And a committee of the Northern Ireland Assembly is, more than 20 years on, considering this. But what would a Bill of Rights achieve – and which ‘rights’ would be included?

“If you look at what’s driving politics on both parts of the island, it’s real concerns about healthcare and housing and basic social and economic rights,” says Colin. “There’s a real chance to make sure that socio-economic rights on the island are no longer second class rights in the future.”

Colin argues that as well as health and housing, there is also a human right to environmental protection, addressing climate change and climate justice. He insists that what he calls “basic social and economic rights” need legal protection. “In the future, health care is a human right that needs to be solidly underpinned by legal guarantees.”

But does this mean that there should be a legal right for everyone having a job? “I think it’s important to recognize socio-economic rights as human rights, including employment rights. But… there are often balancing exercises that go along with those human rights instruments – not all human rights are absolute.

“I think the starting point has to be better recognition in law of the basic human rights that people need to have. And human rights advocates, equality advocates, social justice advocates on this island – but actually in Europe and globally – need to do a much better job at winning that argument. That’s not to say that human rights protections will deliver a utopia. They won’t. They’re really a starting point.

“But we’ve all got to try and agree that these things are basic human rights that have to be reflected in law. For example, I still think the north needs a Bill of Rights.”

Human rights advocates feel let down by the lack of progress following the Good Friday Agreement. “The Agreement held out a clear promise that it wouldn’t just be a shared society, that it would be a shared and better society,” insists Colin. “And that would include a number of things, including better human rights protection.”

In 2008, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission – whose members included Colin – submitted recommendations to the British government on a Bill of Rights. Yet “we still haven’t had that Bill of Rights delivered”. “What we see at the moment is there’s an ad hoc assembly committee that’s meeting to renew and revisit that conversation. So it’s long overdue that we have a Bill of Rights here. But it’s time for people to join that conversation. A conversation focused on not just having shared institutions and relative stability here, but actually the creation of a better society, a more equal society.”

But Colin warns: “The Agreement is very clear that the Bill of Rights is to be delivered at Westminster by the Westminster government.” And the debate has now been affected by the Brexit decision and the “likely loss of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU”. “So there’s a real anxiety and worry that the UK is planning to go backwards in relation to rights, that there’ll be undercutting of those rights, particularly in those basic areas of equality, employment, socio-economic justice, that people are really concerned about here.”

Colin is determined, though, that rights should not perceived as only being applicable for one section of society, but instead are actually protecting all members of society. “Those rights will protect everyone here.”

He continues: “First of all, it gives people a secure recognition. These are not issues of discretion and when they’re actually basic human rights that people have and guarantees. And I wouldn’t underestimate the importance of that. Secondly, it’s hoped it will be used in practice. And I would underline that it will only make a difference to people’s lives if the Bill of Rights that we adopt is an ambitious Bill of Rights. It isn’t just a tweak to the Human Rights Act.

“It’s something that reflects an ambitious vision for this society, that’s used in practice – that people are able to access justice in an affordable way, that they can use these rights, that public authorities mainstream these protections and the work that they do in a preventative way, that the Executive and the Assembly takes these measures seriously in their work, so that we’re not always going to court to enforce rights.”

He adds: “I wouldn’t be offering a Bill of Rights or human rights protections as the answer to all the problems of this society and the problems that we face. They’re just the starting point.”

Next week’s podcast will be the second in a two-part consideration of the call for a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland, featuring an interview with former Progressive Unionist Party councillor Julie-Anne Corr-Johnston.

Disclaimer: This project has received support from the Northern Ireland Community Relations Council which aims to promote a pluralist society characterised by equity, respect for diversity, and recognition of interdependence. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Community Relations Council.

FULL EPISODE DESCRIPTION

‘Politicians will argue, they will fight over it and they will come up with reasons for not dealing with the past’
 
It was hoped that the Patten reforms would herald a new start for policing in Northern Ireland, but, argues Denis Bradley, the PSNI remains burdened with its legacy from the old RUC. Denis is a former vice-chair of the Northern Ireland Policing Board and co-chair of the Consultative Group on the Past. He was talking in the latest Forward Together podcast from the Holywell Trust.
 
“In the setting-up of the PSNI, the new service inherited, carried with it, the deeds of the RUC. That was done at the time to placate unionism, which is understandable, I wouldn’t have any great problem with that,” says Denis.
 
“The difficulty with it was that it was taking the past with it, in the sense that it had to deal with the past while being part of the conflict itself. That left it in a bit of a bind. That goes through right to the present day. It may have been better to not carry the deeds of the RUC with it, but we are where we are, as they say.”
 
Denis adds: “The other thing is that in the establishment of it, the RUC overhung the new policing service. So does the conflict, in the sense that neither did militant republicanism totally go away, with dissidents breaking off from the Provisional IRA. Their whole base was within nationalist working class areas and they kept their presence there, through things like the Omagh bomb and right up to the present day.
 
“While one of the most prominent people in the whole Provisional organisation, Martin McGuinness - and within the new political establishment - described them as ‘militarily pathetic’, they also carried a threat – and the main threat was against the new policing service, on the grounds that they claimed that it wasn’t a fully re-established, reconstituted, independent service.”
 
This created serious challenges for the PSNI, made worse, argues Denis, by the lack of any tradition or culture of organised policing in working class nationalist areas. Though, he stresses, these areas were lawful, they were not used to a uniformed police service being present. This combination of factors meant that “policing in these communities was not what it should have been”. That should have led to a heavy concentration of recruiting police officers from those communities, along with a strong commitment to community policing in those areas – but that did not happen, says Denis.
 
Yet, despite this, community satisfaction with policing in Northern Ireland is by international standards unusually high – at around 80%, which is comparable to that across Europe. “Certainly higher than in some other countries, such as America,” explains Denis.
 
The PSNI remains a difficult force to lead. Chief constables who had a background in the RUC have found it impossible to shake off their association with the past, while all but one of those who came from England have been accused of naivety in their understanding of the complications of Northern Ireland society. Denis believes that only by tackling the inherent problems that he described can these leadership challenges be overcome. “I don’t think it matters so much who is the chief constable, because he or she is only one person.”
 
Denis praises the PSNI for improving community relationships across much of Northern Ireland. “I think that they have worked reasonably hard, and partially successfully, integrating themselves into communities. I get good feedback at times.” Denis adds: “I don’t believe the middle class in any country has difficulty with policing…. Where you find problems in most countries is in working class communities.”
 
Structures of accountability should mean that the PSNI is challenged to improve policing in Northern Ireland’s working class areas, including nationalist areas. But instead, says Denis, the response is “if we go in and do what you are asking us to do, we will get ourselves killed”.
 
Policing anywhere works though a combination of trust and what might be termed ‘dispassionate engagement’, argues Denis. “If the community it is policing has more trust and respect in it than it has mistrust and disrespect - if the balance is 50, 60, 70% -then policing can tackle most things - they will take the community with it, in good times and in bad.
 
“If, on the other hand, it is 30, or 40, or 15 or 20% - a minority feeling of trust – then in good times or bad that community will not liaise with, will not communicate with, policing in ways that are positive and successful in policing terms. If you scale that up into situations where there is organised crime, where people use guns, use drugs, or are very ruthless and violent, then you have the clash - between whether the community has trust in the police enough as a humane body, but also as a professional body. Then that police force will be more powerful and more successful than the organised crime.
 
“Dublin is a perfect example of that. Where communities have been more frightened of the drug gangs than the police, with young people more attracted to crime gangs than to the police.” It then becomes necessary for the police to engage with communities to generate the respect necessary to defeat crime gangs.
 
While the PSNI are dealing with the legacy of the RUC, and the complaints of its operations as a partisan force, there is also the legacy of Troubles killings. With the UK government apparently committed to avoiding new prosecutions of soldiers, this has again become extremely contentious.
 
Denis is wary about moves to set up another committee looking at the past, given the work that he and Archbishop Lord Robin Eames were engaged in when co-chairing the Consultative Group on the Past, which contained just three people. “One of my fears around the Stormont House Agreement, which came about ten years after the Consultative Group on the Past, in its management of how to deal with the past has about 30, or 40, or 60 people involved, in the sense that each aspect has more and more people involved, including a very strong representation from our political parties.
 
“I have never been of the opinion that the political parties are capable of dealing with the past. They will argue, they will fight over it and they will come up with reasons for not dealing with things. But they will never deal with it. There will always be a stand-off.” The Consultative Group addressed this by concluding that the two governments – the UK and Ireland – would have to resolve the problems.
 
“The second thing in dealing with the past is to be incredibly sensitive towards the victims. But in dealing with victims you must never allow the victims to be the leaders around this. There will always be divisions. They have different narratives and different needs and different passions. So you can never allow the victims to be the leaders in this. And to some extent victims have been politicised.”
 
Those comments were made by Denis several weeks before the arguments emerged that are now holding up the payment of pensions to Troubles survivors. But the deadlock certainly seems to vindicate his observations.
 
Disclaimer: This project has received support from the Northern Ireland Community Relations Council which aims to promote a pluralist society characterised by equity, respect for diversity, and recognition of interdependence. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Community Relations Council.

John FitzGerald Podcast Interview

John FitzGerald is one of Ireland’s most respected and influential economists –formerly research professor at the Economic and Social Research Institute and currently chair of the group advising the Irish government on climate policy. He is a strong critic of Northern Ireland’s policies on education and skills training, arguing that these are core factors in the weakness of the northern economy.

He is the latest interviewee in the Holywell Trust’s Forward Together podcast series.

“In terms of productivity, Northern Ireland is at the bottom of the scale,” he says. “That reflects the fact that the educational attainment of the population in Northern Ireland is the lowest for any region in these islands.

“Ireland, London and Scotland are at the top. Northern Ireland is at the bottom. Measuring both in terms of early school leavers, who don’t complete high school, and the proportion of the population who have third level qualifications. Northern Ireland is at the bottom on both of those measures. That helps to explain why productivity performance is so poor.”

Moreover, the proportion of young adults who have third level qualifications is a major factor in determining the location of foreign direct investment, says John. Between a quarter and a third of Northern Ireland's undergraduates leave to study in Britain and two thirds of those do not return.

The contrast with the Republic is significant. A larger proportion of school leavers go to university, and while “quite a high proportion of them, 25 to 40 percent, would then go abroad for whatever reason, but they're homing pigeons and they come back,” says John. “It looks as if the pattern is that you return to where you did your third level of qualifications. Even if you're from Northern Ireland, if you do your undergraduate degree in Britain, you don't come back.”

Moreover, a significant number of those people who do graduate in Northern Ireland go into the public sector. “The public sector is much bigger in Northern Ireland than it would be in most other parts of the United Kingdom,” says John. “That reflects the fact that in the crisis years between 1970 and 2000, and in particular in the 70s when employment collapsed because of the Troubles, it was ramped up in the public sector. And really, the public sector still dominates.”

Another core problem of the Northern Irish economy is the shortage of relevant vocational skills. “In the Republic, one of the success stories of the last 30, 40 years was the institutes of technology.” These, argues John, have been a foundation for some of the key industrial growth areas, such as health care devices and pharmaceuticals.

The contrast with Northern Ireland is substantial and linked to the influence of academic selection to the structure of northern society. Selection at 11 tends to separate pupils at a young age, with one route being academic and the other vocational. Research, says John, “shows that segregation by educational attainment in grammar schools and secondary schools is very damaging to kids, in particular from disadvantaged backgrounds.”

He adds: “It seems to be an urban working class problem, which has been overcome in the Republic, but it's really damaging in Northern Ireland. And it goes back to the selection by schools. The research done in the Republic shows that mixed ability teaching is really important... The research showed streaming doesn't improve the prospects of good bright kids, but seriously impacts on the prospects of kids in the lower half of the distribution of attainment.”

The result is demotivating for those pupils not doing well, while “the bulk of kids from a middle class background get into grammar school. So you're segregating, if you like, on a class basis as well.”

Alongside education and skills, the other basis for necessary reform is infrastructure investment, argues John. “The evidence is that Northern Ireland is an exception in the investment in physical capital compared to the Republic, compared to the United Kingdom as a whole, compared to Scotland. The transfers from London have been used to provide support income through employment, through welfare or good public services, rather than holding back some of that and investing in infrastructure, which would support a productive and active business economy.”

But the strains on infrastructure have been accentuated by urban and rural planning policy. “Belfast has decentralized and partly because of the Troubles, it has not grown. There has been much more dispersed population growth. Whereas in the Republic and in Britain, the problem is that there’s been overconcentration in London, overconcentration in Dublin. But cities across Europe are successful.” The “failure to develop Belfast” backed by good public transport has led to a dispersed population. “So I think there's a need for a change in approach and investing in infrastructure.”

But John concedes: “It's an issue which we face in the Republic as well: Irish people, north and south, would like to live in rural areas and work in urban areas. That's totally unsustainable. And the dynamic of a dense city works.... That is the future.”

This latest podcast in the second Forward Together series is available here on the website of Holywell Trust, a peace and reconciliation charity, and is financed by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme

Disclaimer: This project has received support from the Northern Ireland Community Relations Council which aims to promote a pluralist society characterised by equity, respect for diversity, and recognition of interdependence. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Community Relations Council.

FULL EPISODE NOTES

‘We need an agency to promote social integration’, says Father Martin Magill

Northern Ireland needs a body lobbying for social integration, learning from the success of the Integrated Education Fund in its work promoting integrated schools, says Father Martin Magill.  Without an agency pushing the integrated housing agenda, it will be difficult to make sufficient progress, he says.  Martin was interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.

“I grew up living in a neighbourhood where my next door neighbour was Presbyterian; further on down the road Church of Ireland; further down the road, Methodist,” recalls Martin. “We were various Christian denominations. My home area is people living side by side. For me, that's one of the most important things. I'm aware, for example, of the Integrated Education Fund and we hear a lot of that. I hear nothing to the same degree on encouraging integrated housing. And I really would like to see the likes of integrated neighbourhoods.”

He continues: “The sort of society I believe that we need to see for the city [of Belfast], Northern Ireland, Ireland, whatever, is where we can live together, where there are various religions.... faiths generally - those with faith and those without faith.....  I would like to see a strategic body focusing, especially, on housing.”

Like many other Forward Together interviewees, Martin is positive about the principle of civic engagement.  “I might use the old cliché, politics is too important to be left to the politicians alone.”  He continues: “I would be very keen that we look again at the whole question of some type of civic forum.  For me, there was a huge value in that. I mean, the whole idea of bringing people from a variety of different backgrounds is really important.”

But Martin is concerned at the low level of voter turn-out at local elections.  “And yet at the same time, when I'm talking to people... they're very interested in the type of society they want.”  Martin adds: “I think it's important that people realize they can make a difference, that their views matter, their opinions matter.”  And while he has concerns about the outcome of the Republic’s citizens’ assemblies discussions on abortion, he says about the use of the assemblies “there's something worth exploring there”. 

In a previous Forward Together interview, Peter Sheridan of Co-operation Ireland raised the idea of neighbourhood citizens’ assemblies to address the conditions that lead to recruitment of young people by paramilitaries.  Martin responds to that idea: “I'm part of a group called Stop Attacks. So, yes, I can see what he would be talking about.”  But, he cautions, “sometimes people are reluctant to speak when it comes to that issue.”

Martin is more positive about the concept of participatory budgeting, giving people more control over public spending in their own areas.  “I think that could be of real value,” he says.  “That's the sort of direction that I'm going... I think that could be a very useful way of helping us come together as a larger group, as a community.”

Another initiative Martin favours is “community champions” – people who take a lead in making neighbourhoods more diverse.  “I would like to see something more strategic. I would like to see what I call community champions.  I am aware of people who have purposely chosen to live in areas that wouldn't be necessarily their first choice.  I would know of a number of people. I think we need more of that.”

Martin is also a strong supporter of moves that achieve reconciliation.  He gives the example of the meetings between Brighton bomber Patrick Magee and Jo Berry, whose father was killed in the blast.  “That acted as a catalyst for people to come and tell their stories,” he recalls. “They wanted to tell their stories.”

One of the advantages of that process of reconciliation is the humanising of those involved, including those who died.  Another example of that approach was the inter-faith event where there was a reading of the complete list of those who died in the Troubles.  “The focus we wanted was on people’s suffering, rather than getting into the details of how this person died and was this person an innocent victim or a perpetrator or whatever.  We instead focused on the people that the loved ones left behind.  Irrespective of what he or she or they did, inevitably people would be left to suffer as a consequence of their death.”

Martin also reflected on the reaction to his comments at the funeral of Lyra McKee.  “I was completely taken by surprise,” he says. “The reaction I got was in the middle of a sentence.  It was probably really that evening that I began to realize, oh, gosh, this has got quite a bit of traction.  It's probably only really in the days afterwards that I then got a sense of just the impact of it.  Immediately afterwards, it felt like almost a tsunami of attention: letters, phone calls, emails, it just went on and on and on and on. 

“But now, one of the things is that I'm very conscious that I want to make sure I am well grounded. I had to make a big effort to do that.  In many ways it really has given me an opportunity out of a really tragic situation to be able to speak into situations.”

There is a sense now, though, that the immediate impact has waned.  “I would want to see a real momentum again,” says Martin.   “If we go back to the moment in the cathedral - not focusing on me, but focusing on the response that people actually had both inside and outside the cathedral and well beyond that.  Our politicians, I really would encourage them not to focus on me, but focus on the response of people. There was something very telling for me. That was like a catalyst moment.  I really do believe that needs to be made the most of.”

Martin’s other message to politicians though is about the peace dividend, that Northern Ireland society expected to enjoy after the Good Friday Agreement – but for which many poorer communities are still awaiting.  “The peace dividend should be seen as something that we should all enjoy. Not just some of us, but all of us.” 

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

FULL EPISODE NOTES

 ‘A stronger role for civic society must be central to getting government back’

International peace negotiator John McKinney has urged the political parties to include a stronger role for civic society in a reformed structure of governance for Northern Ireland.  John – a former chief executive of the Special EU Programmes Body and of Omagh District Council – was speaking in the latest Forward Together podcast.

Asked how civil society in Northern Ireland should be strengthened, John says: “I don't think we have a framework adequate to do it.  I think we had an opportunity, but that opportunity was missed after the Good Friday Agreement.  We had a Civic Forum that we set up, but it didn't operate. There are many reasons for that. I don't think the will was there by political parties. So there is no place for people to have a voice and that's been compounded as well by the reorganisation of local government, where we have 11 rather than 26 [councils]. So that people living away from a centre don’t have a mechanism to make any comment whatsoever.

“There's no framework where everyone can work within and that was a missed opportunity.....  When we have an operating Assembly, I think it’s a good opportunity to look at the Civic Forum again.  Because if people don't have somewhere to have a voice, if people don't have somewhere where we can dialogue and have a dialogue, if  people don't have a place for engagement, then we are never going to go anywhere. And I think had we had this type of situation, then I think it would have been different.”

So was the Civic Forum the correct structure for civic engagement?  John responds: “Well it's a structure. There's nothing magical about the Civic Forum. If you go to any country after conflict – and I have been to many, and worked in many – you need this type of structure. There’s many different models. But you do need it. Let's have a debate about what the Civic Forum should look like. Every time we talk about citizen engagement here in Northern Ireland, it's always afterwards. Consultation comes after something has been decided – it’s the wrong way round.

“Some of the countries coming out of conflict would put us in the shade.... I am thinking of Eastern Europe and Cyprus.  I know that Cyprus is not united yet, but they're working at it. They have dialogue forums involving a hundred different type of organisations, economic organisations, women’s groups, everybody, but all within a framework. And that's what I like about it.  Working from both sides.  And they give advice to negotiators so that they can think about what it looks like after the agreement.  I think that's the important thing. I don't think we ever thought about what it would look like after the Good Friday Agreement.”

John is clear that negotiations for the re-establishment of the Assembly and Executive must consider the role of civic society in the future governance of Northern Ireland and have a plan for making society more integrated.  “It needs to be a wider debate,” he says. “We should be looking now at what is a shared society going to be like when the Assembly is back up and running – and I am hopeful and optimistic that it will be up again.  We should be having that debate now about what it is going to look like.  If you walk up any main street in Strabane, Omagh, Cookstown, and you ask someone, people are fed-up with politics.”

The solution is clear, argues John.  “Like most things in life, it's about leadership. And there is a complete lack of leadership now. I am not pointing the finger at any political party. It's just a complete lack of leadership. We have a great opportunity with two parties - one from each side of the divide - working together. If both of them could come together and give some sort of leadership about this new horizon that we're going into, it must involve civic society, must set-up some sort of mechanisms for doing that. Look at what the mechanisms should be. I think that's where we have to start and the sooner the better.”

The answer, though, is not necessarily that external brokers need to be brought in to negotiate a solution.  “That's a very interesting point,” concedes John.  “Yes, a little, but not as much as people would think. People will think that they had this wonderful idea of bringing someone in – maybe as a key mentor as it were, maybe from South Africa or the USA...  Yes it would [help].”  But the essential thing is to have “buy-in” from local people, in Northern Ireland, adds John.  The big problem, he suggests, is that people don’t have the belief that the current process is going to succeed.  “What we need is to have a vision from the top and we need support for that vision. We need faith in that vision.  And we need to feel wanted to be part of that.”

John believes that we could have the Assembly back up and running, even without an Executive being operational.  “I always thought that was something that should have happened,” he says.  “People say it just becomes a talking shop, but there is nothing wrong about talking if people have an idea of where that is going to take them.  Unfortunately, talking for talking sake, as we all know, is a waste of time.  I think [the re-establishment of the Assembly without the Executive] could be an intermediate stop that could be taken.”

The podcasts are also available on iTunes and Spotify.

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council and Good Relations Core Funding Programme.

‘We have lost ground in the past 20 years’, claims PUP’s John Kyle

Society in Northern Ireland has gone backwards since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement, argues the former leader of the Progressive Unionist Party John Kyle, who is also a GP in Belfast. “In my view we have lost ground in the past 20 years,” he says in the latest Forward Together podcast.

John believes that we need to review the progress that was achieved and consider why it has lost momentum.  He suggests three factors enabled the conflict to end. “The first important element was that violence was a flawed strategy and it didn't achieve its ends,” he reflects. “People got to a certain age where they thought - look, we have suffered, we have paid a price. Do we want our children to have to go through this? Sure as hell we don't.

“I think the second factor was that the churches got their act together. [They ended] the preaching against one another and calling one another anathema. I think that suddenly changed and the churches realized we have a responsibility to love our brother. While we may disagree strongly and vigorously with them, we have got to show respect and love to our brother.... There was a remarkable coming together between the Catholic and Protestant traditions, not involving everyone, but involving a vast majority of influential and leading people and many congregations.... So the theological justification was suddenly removed from the conflict.

The third aspect, particularly within the middle classes in Northern Ireland, was that you were able to travel more...  So they were living in this more mobile society, a more cosmopolitan, more international society. They hadn't realized there was a bigger perspective to the world.... Within the middle classes that ameliorated a lot of the animosity between the two traditions.  And we made progress with the Good Friday Agreement. People had a sense of hope. They said, hey we can do this. And there was a real sense of this has been a monumental step forward, this opens up new opportunities. Let's build on this and let's capitalize on this. 

“But some things happened that undermined trust. There still was a huge reservoir of hurt. People had been damaged and suffered and that reservoir of suffering was not really being properly addressed.”

Since then, argues John, politicians in the main parties have exploited those community differences and continued hurt for party political benefits – to increase their votes.  “I think our politicians need to man up to that and recognize that they have to bear a significant responsibility for what we have lost in the past 10 to 15 years.”  John adds that civic society is giving the powerful politicians a message – which they ignore.  “Politicians do seem to be cocooned when it comes to responding to what broader civil society is saying, because it seems to me that there is a huge disparity between what people say they would like to see happen and what politicians are actually doing.”

John, a loyalist politician, argues that for Northern Ireland’s system to change for the better “people need to have the courage to vote outside of their traditional patterns of voting, particularly in elections where the constitutional issue is not at stake or is not fundamental to what they're doing. I think we need to realize that we need a broader political representation of people who feel exasperated with the politicians who currently hold power, yet they tend to go back and still vote for them at the next election.”

Working class loyalist and unionist areas are suffering from both neglect and the impact of urban planning, John believes.  “Urban planning broke up a lot of the very densely knit communities,” he says, causing a breach of the cohesion and sense of community that used to predominate.  “I mean we had terrible housing. When I was a young GP working in east Belfast, some of the housing was appalling. So we needed to do something about that. But in removing that and then building new housing stock, that sense of community was fundamentally undermined.”

John believes that to make progress it is essential that we see the personal, not just collective groups.  In particular, we need to recognise the individual pain of victims of The Troubles.  “Colin Davidson has done some remarkable work in terms of victims and survivors and one of the things that Colin says is that most of the people that he's worked with, what they're looking for is an acknowledgement of their suffering.... I think we have failed to acknowledge the suffering and loss.... What Colin Davidson has done is to show the personal face of the pain of The troubles and, yes, the physically injured bodies.”

That same point about dealing with people as people, not just as representatives, can help us make progress in the political logjam, John suggests.  “My understanding is that during the negotiations behind the Good Friday or Belfast Agreement, one of the first things George Mitchell did was to take the politicians out of the current situation here, take them away and enable them to relate to each other as human beings. I think we have a huge need still to do that - to relate to one another as human beings, not as political opponents, or as the other side, or as the enemy, or as the cause of my suffering. We need to find new contexts to enable people to talk together.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council and Good Relations Core Funding Programme of Derry City and Strabane District Council.

‘If we tell people the cost of segregation, they will support greater integration’

If people are told the financial cost of segregation and service duplication, there will be much greater support for social integration, says community worker Maureen Hetherington.  Maureen is director of The Junction community and peace-building centre in Derry-Londonderry and was interviewed in the latest ‘Forward Together’ podcast.

“I have no doubt that integrated education is absolutely fundamental to getting people to know each other, to engage with each other,” stresses Maureen. “The difficulty there is that we don't have the integrated society. So we absolutely need to start the social housing, that has to be cross-community and it has to be mixed. We could highlight the cost of segregation. 

“When we get down to the bread and butter issues, the majority of people out there want the best for the children, their family, they want to keep surviving, they want a quality of life.  This cost of segregation, if people realise, if we look at that and redistribute the money to where it is really needed, then I think that people would be up for a more integrated society. The majority of people do want change. They do want a better future. But it's taking that leap of faith, but also taking the steps towards that... exposing the segregation for what it is - the systems and structures that keep people separated - and finding ways of bringing them together.”  Maureen believes that the other key element of integrating society is for people to live in genuinely shared communities.  

Maureen is a strong believer in civil society alongside politics that works – but believes, for the time being, that the politics are broken.  “I think that in any society we need a top down and a bottom up approach,” she says. “Unfortunately not having anything at the top at the moment, it relies very heavily on the bottom up approach. I think that the citizens’ assembly is a very good idea and it's very good to have people actually having a civil, mature conversation that draws out the common sense and the conclusions – the greater good - then you can actually reach a consensus and then you realize everything is about compromise.

“But unfortunately whenever we have politicians who have absolutely no interest in dealing with the common or greater good, and everything is based on the self-interest of the party, it becomes stymied and it becomes limited. I worry all the time that we raise expectations in the community and then when nothing comes of it, people get very disillusioned, disheartened and they disengage. And part of that is that they continually try to make progress. They go to the workshops, they'll do what they can, but then ultimately it’s stymied or stopped or you know it comes to an abrupt end and progress can’t be seen. People have to be in it for the long-term.”

In this latest podcast interview, Maureen warns on the mental health impact of social media on young people, but also the risks of isolation for the elderly who are not computer literate.  In a wide-ranging conversation, Maureen argues that society cannot have real peace until patriarchal structures are dismantled and calls for “gender justice”. “That's a huge challenge,” she stresses.

Maureen urges Northern Ireland society to move on from the past and avoid using history in ways that prevent us from making progress.

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council and Good Relations Core Funding Programme of Derry City and Strabane District Council.

Justice for victims is achieved by “giving them a society that works”, says Fergus O'Dowd TD of Fine Gael.  He is a member of the Oireachtas Good Friday Implementation Committee and was appointed earlier this year by Taoiseach Leo Varadkar to lead a new Fine Gael group to develop links with Northern Ireland.  He is interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.

Discussing how to deal with events of the past, Fergus stresses that victims and their relatives must be treated fairly, and criticises recent remarks by Northern Ireland secretary Karen Bradley in the House of Commons about Bloody Sunday.  She initially said that killings by security forces were "not crimes", before rowing back on the remarks.

“Some of the commentary wasn't helpful,” Fergus says, adding, “the Secretary of State wasn't helpful.”  The risk, he says, is that “you have a society where you get law, but you don't get justice.”  The best approach, he suggests, is “you give them justice by giving them a society that works, an administration that respects all sides”.

Fergus urges Sinn Fein to take their seats in the House of Commons in order to help protect the whole of Ireland from the impact of Brexit.  “The nationalist voice has not been heard in the UK Parliament.  I think it is hugely important that it would be and that would help. But obviously it probably won't happen.... This decision is about all of Ireland....  This is a historic, huge, decision, which will have ramifications probably for hundreds of years for all we know.”

Fergus stresses that he is an Irish nationalist, who believes in achieving a united Ireland by consent.  But he believes this should not create a bar to engaging with, and working with, unionists in the north.  He makes a plea to the DUP – to engage with politicians in the Republic.  “I've met some unionists, not too many of the DUP.  I would like to engage more.  I need to understand their position better. I've met moderate unionists and I understand their position absolutely and respect it. I've met moderate nationalists.  I need to meet with the majority party in the north, which is the DUP.”

He is clear that citizens’ assemblies were of enormous importance in enabling southern politics to deal with the challenging decisions around same sex marriage and abortion.  Fergus believes that citizens’ assemblies could do the same with constitutional issues in the north, including, at some point, a possible united Ireland. 

Fergus stresses that what has happened in recent years has meant “we've become a completely different society”.  He is a TD in County Louth, based in Drogheda, a town which is noticeably more multi-cultural than anywhere in Northern Ireland.  He says that at one recent meeting, those present had a mix of 32 different first languages.  Yet Drogheda and the Republic seem to be more successful than Northern Ireland at integrating communities. 

One means of supporting integration has been by giving parents the choice of the status of new schools. “It's a huge change and it's very welcome because the views of the parents are the ones that count...  If you continue to have separate schools for separate religions, I don't think that's a good thing, personally.  I think that integration means that you go to the same school, the school that is nearest.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council and Good Relations Core Funding Programme of Derry City and Strabane District Council.

‘We have a political process instead of a peace process’

Northern Ireland has “had a political process at the cost of a peace process”, believes Clare Bailey MLA, the leader of the Green Party in Northern Ireland.  She is highly critical of the limited progress since the Good Friday Agreement 21 years ago and the lack of real social integration.  She was speaking in the latest Forward Together podcast.

Clare questions who has benefited since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement.  

 “Certainly within the working class and the most deprived areas in Northern Ireland and those communities - they certainly haven't seen a pay-off,” she argues.  Clare references the lack of government, squeezed budgets, welfare reform, “soaring levels of poverty” and “more people dying by suicide since the signing of the Good Friday agreement than were ever killed in the troubles. We have intergenerational trauma.”

She lists her frustrations with lack of progress.  “We have more peace walls in Northern Ireland now than we did during the conflict. Our education system hasn't moved on.  Back in 1981, I was one of the first 28 pupils to attend Lagan [integrated] College when it first opened. There were protests at the door of the school.  Our buses were smashed and we were identified by our uniforms.... But yet here we are almost 38 years later with only 65 of our schools both primary and post primary that are under the integrated banner.... Over the past 20 years I've seen little attempt at integration.”

Clare adds that it is wrong to believe that we should wait for politics and the economy to improve before civic society is strengthened.   “We need to hear a civic voice,” she urges, adding that “citizens’ assemblies [are] an excellent model to start engaging with.” 

She makes clear her frustration with elements of mainstream British and Northern Irish politics.  “We have hardline Brexiteers who are pushing for a no deal Brexit and openly admitting that they'd never even read the Good Friday Agreement. And nationalist parties whose raison d'être has always been about a united Ireland, they’ve reached this point and [they are] still not willing to put their ideas on the table of what that is.” 

This context, she suggests, is dangerous.  “We are still a deeply traumatised society. It doesn't take much to just scratch those open wounds.  People are still living with fear and it's getting worse because we're not dealing with it.” 

As far as Clare is concerned, the Assembly – when functioning – is itself an expression of sectarian division.  “I have to designate myself as either a nationalist or a unionist. And if I don't agree with either, or don't identify as either, I'm automatically designated as ‘an other’.  I designated myself as a feminist when I was first elected and the computer does not compute. So I am automatically an ‘other’.  So therefore my ‘other’ vote in some Assembly debates is lesser than that of a nationalist or a unionist. And it's in those types of situations I mean by saying sectarianism has been written into the heart of the institutions.”

As far as the future is concerned, the challenge of climate change is the most important issue.  “If we want a united Ireland, we need to talk about transformation and we need to be in no doubt whatsoever that a new Ireland is coming. And she's on her way and she's called climate chaos.  We've been given 12 years to the point of no return from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change – when, if we do not radically change our lifestyles, our behaviours, then the damage that will be done will be irreparable. So we will be forced into renegotiating who we are on this island. How do we get along. What our relationships are. But more importantly, how we do business together.  So I am in no doubt that a new Ireland is coming, but I don't believe that it's the one many people are thinking of.”

 
Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council and Good Relations Core Funding Programme of Derry City and Strabane District Council.

In praise of Citizens’ Assemblies – Peter Sheridan believes they can provide solutions to some of Northern Ireland’s most intractable problems

Citizens’ assemblies should be widely used to address the problems faced by communities across Northern Ireland, argues Peter Sheridan, the chief executive of Co-operation Ireland. He was interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.

“It works in Canada, it works in Iceland: there are examples all around the world.”  Speaking before the murder of Lyra McKee, Peter continues: “You pick an area and pick a problem, you randomly select a group of people from the electoral register and depending on the size of the problem it could be 30, 40, 50, 60 people. So it could be an area the size of Creggan on the west bank of the Foyle. You identify a particular problem. So let's take as an example that may be in an area, how do we stop young people joining paramilitaries?   And you bring in expert opinion – who might say well, for example, in Colombia here's how they went about stopping young people joining groups.”

Having heard from experts, the random assembly of residents would then deliberate on how to address the problem.  The sessions would be facilitated, supported and reported.  “That could be over a period of two weekends, two days each weekend, where that group of 50 would really engage in the conversation and they'd be remunerated for being present.”

Peter adds: “I don't think there are any problems that are off limits that the public could not have a view on.... Actually some of the best thinking and ideas come from people who live in the community.”  In many cases, he explains, the process will involve statutory agencies saying what they are doing – and the results may be strongly critical of those same agencies.  “But they shouldn't see it as a threat. This is meant to help and support them to improve the way of life for people in particular communities.”

One of Peter’s frequent comments is that the discussion about rights should be reversed.  He explains: “One of the frustrations that I have is that our political system here is such that even when they're in a shared executive they all champion their own side's rights.... I would want to know from the DUP - what is it you're going to do that protects the Catholic, nationalist, republican traditions, cultures and identity?  And then Sinn Fein, what is it you're able to do that protects the Protestant, unionist, loyalist traditions, their culture and their identity?  [We need to] get people wanting to protect their neighbours’ rights.

“I've always had the view that one of the weaknesses of the Good Friday Agreement was that we managed to get all of the political parties in Northern Ireland to concede to the British government of Tony Blair. We managed to get them all to concede to the Irish government of Bertie Ahern.  And we managed to get them all to concede to the American government of Bill Clinton. But what they didn't do was concede to each other.”

He adds: “I want to know what you're going to do to protect the other community.  And literally that's where you change the conversation to.”

But Peter, a former senior RUC officer, also argues that the history of The Troubles should not be ignored, yet needs to be handled with enormous care to avoid re-traumatising victims and survivors.   He says that he had conversations with Martin McGuinness and others in which he said that each had to accept they had different stories and understanding of the past.  Each has to accept the other has their own version of what happened and why.  “I think once you can get people to think in that way, then you have the possibility of being able to look to the future. Because the way we are doing it now is that we're going back over 40 years trying to decide who's right and who's wrong in every instance. And we will still not agree.”

Peter adds that any referendum on a united Ireland has to learn from the mistakes of the Brexit referendum.  “The first thing I think we have to do is to not do what we're doing at the minute, which is saying we have to have a border poll.  No, to me it's a bit like what people did in Brexit. Let's have a border poll to say yes or no. And then we'll decide.  We have not had the conversation to say what might this means for the Irish flag, for the Irish national anthem, all of the other arrangements in terms of policing, environment, health, education.  You can’t make a quick decision on something as complex as that.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council and Good Relations Core Funding Programme of Derry City and Strabane District Council.

‘Political leadership is key to making progress’

Developing mutual respect, strengthening relationships and building proper political leadership are the basis for making progress in Northern Ireland, believes independent unionist MLA – and former justice minister - Claire Sugden.  She is interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.

Talking before the announcement of renewed political talks, Claire expressed her frustration at the lack of a functioning Assembly and Executive.  “We've had a situation here at Stormont where we haven't had a sitting assembly for two years.  And I think the anger amongst the general public is palpable. You know I feel it and see it every day. I'm a great believer that leadership is about bringing people with you. And I don't think politics is doing that right now. 

“I actually think good politics and good governance is what's missing from our puzzle. You know that the past 20 years really were about establishing the institutions, establishing the peace and ensuring that we get to a place where we can pull together. I think now is the time where we actually work together and we start delivering for the people of Northern Ireland. And I think when we do that we might start to see that people realize we're all the same despite our backgrounds.... You know there's not one person in Northern Ireland that wouldn't tell me that they just want to be helped and they want the country to move forward. How we get there is leadership and good governance.”

And Claire is one of those politicians who is genuinely keen to open up the political system to bring in more non-political voices to improve engagement and strengthen democracy.  “I think the work that's being done on a civic forum or a civic assembly, I think is really positive,” she says. “I think people do need to be engaged because too often I suppose politicians take it for granted that they know what the public [wants]... So yes there needs to be a mechanism to suggest what public opinion really is - a safe space if you like for politicians to engage in a debate.... 

“I think it's sad that post-Good Friday Agreement that the Civic Forum didn't come to anything. I think it was perhaps more [about] it's makeup rather than the intention and the idea around it. It wasn't genuinely civic. It was perhaps people who already had a voice within the political system and that's what any future sort of civic forum or civic platform needs to be about - it needs to be about people on the ground, it needs to be about the people who actually are suffering from the fact that we don't have an assembly.... The people we need to get here are the people who are not engaged...

And to me that's leadership. You're bringing people along with you by having them in the room having the conversation.

“My experience with the political parties - and I certainly don't speak for any of them - is that they do not represent the best interests of all the people of Northern Ireland. Every MLA will tell you that it's not just unionists who come into their office or nationalists, it's people from all backgrounds.  Day-to-day, it's actually our job to represent and advocate for their best interests, on their behalf.”

Claire argues that dividing lines between the political parties get in the way of making Northern Ireland a better place. “Where we seem to get stuck is on party policy,” she says.  “I very much see my job is about improving public services for the people of Northern Ireland.  And I think sometimes the higher level stuff gets in the way.”  She adds that “the past is one of the things that's getting in the way of us dealing with the present and the future”. 

She continues: “How can we even have a conversation towards uniting an island when we can't unite ourselves within a part of the island?”  That process of healing our society includes being open and honest about the past – and trying to understand why people from different backgrounds did the things they did.  “I think the greatest skill that any politician can have is empathy,” she says. “You don't have to agree. And I think sometimes we misunderstand empathy with agreement. It is important to know where people come from.”

It also involves having a better understanding of what did happen.  Claire stresses: “One thing that really struck me in my work as minister of justice when I was meeting a lot of victims and their families was the trauma from what had happened. Trauma is such a big part of conflict. And I think it's appalling that as a post-conflict society we have never even considered how we dealt with our trauma and still aren't 20 years later.  But that trauma seems to get passed from generation to generation.

“If we are genuinely going to reconcile, we have to break that trauma at some point.   I met a grandmother who sadly then passed away.  But it's their grandson who's sitting in the room, talking to me about the injustices of their relative being taken during the Troubles and the fact that they haven't got answers and that the government hasn't upheld their responsibility around that. So I don't think it's enough to say time will be a healer, because I think trauma, particularly in a post-conflict situation, is going to get passed from generation to generation to generation.  If we don't address it then we will be still facing the same issues in 50 years time.”  

Claire adds: “I think there are current politicians who are suffering from their own traumas of the past. I think trauma is an inevitable part of life, whether it's in Northern Ireland because of post-conflict, or whether it's because someone close to you passed away when you were 16. But it's how we deal with that - and that's how we move forward.  And I don't think we've been given the tools, or even the knowledge, to be able to do that.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council and Good Relations Core Funding Programme of Derry City and Strabane District Council.

“A leadership vacuum” that must be filled

A leadership vacuum is causing harm across Northern Ireland, including in loyalist areas, and contributes to the lure of paramilitaries, warns victims’ campaigner 

Alan McBride in the latest Forward Together podcast. “I think we probably need to put a lot of investment into areas like East Belfast and the Shankill and other areas to try and improve the leadership potential,” he argues. 

Alan adds: “As a grassroots working class Protestant loyalist myself, I have a real feel for that community. I don't always think that they're best served by the sort of spokespeople that they put forward at this moment. So I would like to see other voices - voices that perhaps we haven't heard yet.”

He is particularly critical of DUP representation of loyalist areas.  “I don't think the DUP represent loyalist communities. I think they use loyalist communities for votes, but I don't think they really deliver for loyalist communities.  You'll see that certainly where I live and in other areas. I think there's absolutely room for improvement there. 

“If you look at some of the reports that have come out in the last few years around educational achievement amongst working class loyalists boys - I think there's a lot of issues out there that are coming out of that. And I think there needs to be a big cash injection initially... taking some of those young people and developing leadership skills and developing them.”

Alan is a strong critic of the education system, which he believes fails children from working class backgrounds.  “I've heard people champion our education system and say that it's the best in Europe, the best in the world and all.  For some people that's true. But not for a lot of people... We have to absolutely encourage young people, to give them proper role models to aspire to.  And I think that in some loyalist communities there is a real shortage of them, because the role models of some of those communities are the local UDA brigadier or whatever.  I think those are really bad role models. 

“There needs to be somebody within those communities that can actually stand up and who people can maybe follow and inspire and move on.  But if they don't do that, and if that doesn't happen, then we're just looking at generation after generation of educational failure, of unemployment, of poverty, of sectarianism, of all the things that plague working class loyalist communities.”

Alan was a member of the former Civic Forum.  “I think that it was a great idea. I think it had great potential. I don't think that it was particularly well run or well managed. But I would like to see that idea come back again and I would also like for our politicians not to see any form of civic forum or people's parliament, call it what you will, as a threat to democracy.  It's absolutely not. It's an invaluable resource for them, even as a sounding board to get some ideas to have a proper interface with the community, with civil society. And so I would like to see something like that happen again.”

As a victims’ campaigner whose wife and father-in-law were killed in the Troubles, Alan has thought much about how best to deal with the past and legacy issues.  “My own preferred way forward would have been to go back to the Consultative Group on the Past report, the Robin Eames and Denis Bradley report.  I think it was the best [proposal] and I think every time we've gone for consultation since then we have come back with something which is considerably less than what we had before.  I think that the Stormont House Agreement, and the legacy aspects of that, is the last time we can go back to the people... You can't just collectively forget about the past. You have to have some kind of a mechanism to be able to hang the past on.  It's happened in South Africa, the Balkans, Chile, Argentina and Rwanda. All of the countries that have had conflict have had something where they were able to hang their past on.  What we need in Northern Ireland is one that is tailor-made for our situation.  I absolutely believe that what we have with the Stormont House Agreement is tailor-made for our situation... I think that we need to learn from our past.”

Alan believes that the constitutional question needs to be in the open, with an honest discussion about the options and their implications.  “I think that what has to happen is that those that are proposing an ‘All Ireland’ have to demonstrate and show people in the unionist community what life would be like living in Northern Ireland.  My favoured option is to stay within the union, but only if it's working financially and economically and is equal.  I suppose like many people I'm more concerned with my quality of life than I am with the kind of flag that flies...  I think that our lot is better in the union, but that was a union that was part of a wider Europe.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council and Good Relations Core Funding Programme of Derry City and Strabane District Council.

‘Let’s look again at the Eames-Bradley approach to the past’

The Eames-Bradley report was the best approach yet to how Northern Ireland should deal with Troubles legacy issues, argues Mark Durkan.  The former SDLP leader and deputy first minister was interviewed for the ‘Forward Together’ podcast series immediately before declaring his candidacy for Fine Gael for the Dublin constituency in the European Parliament elections.

Mark argues that the proposals tabled for the 2013 talks mediated by US envoy Richard Haass were “not as good as Eames-Bradley”.  The challenge is also that “different parties are saying different things at different times”, making solutions more difficult.  For example, “some parties... say draw a line under the past... and then in the next breath they're demanding pursuit of certain issues”.

He continues: “I don't think we can just simply draw a line under the past, but it's how do we create the situation where we don't endlessly pore over the past, but we don't glibly pass over the past either, because the past leaves a very real sense of grievance for people and not just those people who are directly affected... but also as a society.”

Mark goes on: “Eames-Bradley pointed out that it wouldn't be a case of one size fits all... people have different needs”.  In many cases, people need an acknowledgement of what happened and its injustice.  “And we should have measures for dealing with the past that facilitate those different ways.  We know some people basically just want the truth to be told.”  This includes, he argues, for Hansard – the official record of Parliament – to be corrected where government ministers gave an incorrect record of events.  “There's some victims of the Troubles for whom the official record still suggest that they somehow contributed to their death, or holds them under some sort of suspicion”.

While the discussion over the constitutional arrangements for Northern Ireland cannot be ignored “what we need to do is get to a position where we can have an honest debate about honest differences over honest preferences as to whether it's United Kingdom or United Ireland as the best context for us,” says Durkan.

Mark also calls for a recognition that Northern Ireland needs to recreate a stronger civic society.  “We need to recognise first of all that civil society has made significant contributions during the life of the peace process,” he says.  “When we negotiated the [Good Friday] Agreement one of the reasons why we had a Civic Forum as part of the institutions was because we wanted to continue to harness that value and that insight”.  Nor does he believe it was right for the Civic Forum to cease operating.  “The Civic Forum didn't collapse: the Civic Forum became a casualty of suspension. There was nothing in the Agreement that said it should be a casualty of suspension and some of us argued at the time that the Civic Forum should be maintained even though the assembly was suspended”.  

He adds: “I suppose we have the experience since then of seeing citizens’ assemblies and operations in a number of places, not least in the south... So yes we can look to try to refocus, to reach something along the lines of the original Civic Forum, but I think even if we do that, that could be complemented by - or indeed that could commission - various citizens’ assemblies.  One of the risks with the Civic Forum is that basically it becomes a representative body of the main political parties, rather than actually taking people from broader society.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the The Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme, Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council and Good Relations Core Funding Programme of Derry City and Strabane District Council. 

‘Strengthen and value civil society’

“Civil society needs to be strengthened to do more than just provide services,” argues Avila Kilmurray, one of the founders of the Women’s Coalition.  “Civil society in many ways was the backbone of society in the 70s, 80s, 90s in Northern Ireland, whenever we were in the midst of The Troubles.” 

The call for a strong civic society was made in the third interview in the series of more than 30 Forward Together podcasts.  These were recorded with leading figures across Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to mark 21 years since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement.  The interviews seek answers to questions about the future of Northern Ireland and the border counties.  

Avila fears that civil society organisations have become focused on grant-funded service delivery, at the expense of their strong and independent voice.  She believes that politicians in Northern Ireland do not have the self-confidence to encourage an independent civil society to make demands.  “I suppose there's an understandable sense from local politicians, ‘Hey you did a great job, but back in your box’,” she says.

We should now consider the lessons from the use of citizens’ assemblies in the Republic of Ireland, Avila believes.  “The assemblies actually proved quite useful for the political system, because they were able to sound-out quite difficult issues.”  She regrets the passing of the Civic Forum in Northern Ireland, which was established as the result of a demand from the Women’s Coalition and which “did some interesting reports”, argues Avila.

“I think it was a shame that it was put in abeyance and then never brought back.  But I think it was really because there was no understanding that actually participatory democracy doesn't replace representative democracy - it can actually add an element to it.”

A priority now, adds Avila, is to agree a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland.  She points out that this is a demand that goes beyond republicanism.  

Avila adds that when considering the past it is essential that people’s experiences are heard.  She says: “We need to create the space for those stories to actually be shared.”

The aim of the Forward Together podcasts is to promote a wider, more inclusive and engaged conversation about how we make progress and further solidify peace and create a genuinely shared and integrated society.  We want that discussion to be mutually respectful, to be forward focused and positive.  It considers the real challenges our society faces in the coming years.

This initiative is the result of a partnership between the Holywell Trust peace and reconciliation charity based in Derry/Londonderry and the Slugger O’Toole website.  The Forward Together Podcasts are funded through the Media Grant Scheme of the Community Relations Council for Northern Ireland which also provides core support to Holywell Trust.

The second episode of our Forward Together Podcast features an interview with former Ulster Unionist Party leader Mike Nesbitt. Below is a snapshot of the discussion with Mike.

“Unionism needs to look and recognise that the environment around us is changing,” says former Ulster Unionist Party leader Mike Nesbitt MLA. He adds: “I would like to see civic unionism becoming more active... Perhaps we need to build civic society that goes beyond the division and the politics of unionism and nationalism”. 

The call for a strong civic society was made in the second interview in the series of more than 30 Forward Together podcasts. These were recorded with leading figures across Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to mark 21 years since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement. The interviews seek answers to questions about the future of Northern Ireland and the border counties. 

Nesbitt suggests that unionism should learn from the way civic nationalism is being organised. He says: “I looked quite enviously at civic nationalism and their ability to come together in such big numbers at such short notice in the Waterfront Hall [for the Beyond Brexit conference] and appear to emerge with a united front. So I think it's up to the politicians to give some leadership here and try and energise people.” 

He adds: “Unionism needs to look and recognise that the environment around us is changing. The demographics are changing. That does not mean a united Ireland is inevitable, but it is something we need to be aware of. Scottish nationalism is a threat to the union. English nationalism is a threat to the union and I would actually go as far to say that I believe the DUP, and some of their policies and their attitudes and their tone, is a long term threat to the union.” 

Nesbitt continues by suggesting that more needs to be done to bring Northern Ireland society together. He explains: “Perhaps we need to build civic society that goes beyond the division and the politics of unionism and nationalism”. 

Building on his approach while leader of the UUP, Nesbitt also argues that members of each of the main communities need to become more engaged in selecting the political leadership of the other main community. “Why do unionists only express an opinion on which unionist party they want?,” he asks. He points out that with the single transferable vote system, members of each of the main communities could express their preference for the leadership of the other main community. “And I think that's where we have to get to.” 

Nesbitt also says that Northern Ireland society must seriously consider how we educate our children. “The way we're educating our children at the moment is not viable and sustainable. There's an awful lot of wastage by having duplicated systems.” 

Thinking back to his time as a victims commissioner, Nesbitt calls on people to recognise the commonality and similarity of their experiences in the Troubles, irrespective of which community they are members of. He calls for more investment in counselling services. 

The aim of the Forward Together podcasts is to promote a wider, more inclusive and engaged conversation about how we make progress and further solidify peace and create a genuinely shared and integrated society. We want that discussion to be mutually respectful, to be forward focused and positive. It considers the real challenges our society faces in the coming years. 

This initiative is the result of a partnership between the Holywell Trust peace and reconciliation charity based in Derry/Londonderry and the Slugger O’Toole website. The Forward Together Podcasts are funded through the Media Grant Scheme of the Community Relations Council for Northern Ireland which also provides core support to Holywell Trust.