Season 4, Episode 7 - Misty Harper - Anderson and Danielle S. Castillejo on Liminal Space and Calling
Misty Harper-Anderson is someone who values deep connection and authenticity in
relationships. She has led in various faith spaces for the past eight years after spending
the first part of her vocational life in the corporate world. She is a visionary leader who
appreciates the power of collaboration.
Misty is the Senior Director of Event Management for Pulse (https://pulse.org). Additionally, she serves as the Lead and Planting Pastor for Aspen Community Church.
Misty and her husband, Bill, live in Eagan. Even though their children are all adults, at
least technically, they spend a lot of time together. Their oldest daughter, Sydney,
married a great man, Ludwig, in 2020. Their son, Jacob, lives in Alabama and loves the
south. Their youngest daughter, London, is now at MNSU Mankato. So, they are
experiencing the empty nest for the first time. This is a family who loves board games,
hiking and traveling together
Danielle (00:18):
Hey, welcome to theArise podcast, Conversations on faith, race, justice, gender and healing. And the guest on the podcast is just a dear friend today, Misty Harper Anderson. First of all, you're gonna hear me say that I have a room in her house. I've stayed in the same room twice, and I have, uh, my own drinks in there, LaCroix my own flavor, Misty Ann is truly the embodiment of hospitality, someone I trust, uh, who's willing to have difficult conversations. Someone who's been in the liminal space before and has persisted in that space. She's an event planner, um, a pastor, a church planter, and someone that's hung onto her faith in very authentic in real ways. Love to hear where you're at, what you're doing. Any recent changes you're willing to share. I, I love you. Respect you. I've been in your house. I have my own room there. Um, yeah, , and I've been wanting to get you on the podcast for a long time. I know we collaborated on a writing project a while back
Election. And I think after that experience, I was just knocked out. I've written here and there since then, but, you know, it was like a lot of emotional experience for all of us. So yeah, tell me what are you comfortable sharing about what you're doing? I know you have some exciting things going on, so I'd love to hear about them.
Misty (01:36):
Yeah, for sure. Well, first know this, you still have a room here. It still has your LaCroix water in it, and there were some m and m's there now safely in like a, a jar that's tightly sealed. So whenever you come back, they are waiting for you in your room. Uh, what I'm doing right now, so many things. So, so many things. Um, I, I just accepted a full-time job and, uh, I am really excited about the, the title of, of the position as Senior Senior Director of Event Management. So really it's going to be logistics behind these really large evangelism events. And, uh, I love nuts and bolts and things. I love spreadsheets. That's like one of the nerdy things about me. I love color coded spreadsheets. Uh, so that's new that will start this coming Monday. So in just a couple of days.
And in addition to that, I am doing event management for our friend Joe Saxton and, and Steph O'Brien. And that, that part of my work will wrap up probably like the end of November. Uh, and that's been very fun. You know, I have such great love and respect for both of them, and I love AZA is their event, and I love that. And just everything that they represent in this world and how they uplift and encourage women. So it's been such a privilege to work with them. And then I teach a New Testament and Old Testament at Buffalo University, and that too, that will wrap up, uh, the first week of December. And I teach students with intellectual disabilities, so autism, uh, and Down syndrome. And it has been my oldest daughter, Sydney. She said, Mom, there's no other job that's given you that has given you heart eyes than like that job, because it's been such a good passion project for me.
I love those students and I'm glad that I get to finish up this with them. Uh, and we're church planning still. We've been in the process of church planting since, uh, fall of 2020. Really, really started to kick things off more like spring, summer, fall 2021. And now we are moving into this model of church that actually comes outta Seattle. Uh, it is in Seattle. It's known as Dinner Church, and we will call it Table Church. But it's simple. It's this, We meet around tables, we share food together. Uh, there is, uh, what's called a short Jesus story. So we just, uh, any, any of the stories that come out of the New Testament about Jesus, because I love the Old Testament, will sneak some of that in there too. Uh, and, and then it creates space for conversation about we're, what we're teaching about, and there are a few things that I really love about this.
Something that's just really been on my heart lately is that when we come to these tables, there's no food insecurity. We don't know where people are coming from. We've had people join us who are homeless, to people who come from relatively significant wealth. I mean, at least comfort. And when we're at the table, it is an even playing field, and you only have to share your story or those parts of your story if you really want to. And, uh, it is just this way for us to get to know each other deeply, and for us to build this place of trust. So many people are coming out of situations where they've been hurt by church. And so for us to be able to have this, what's called fresh expression of church, which really is like original church, right? Book of Acts church is what this is. Uh, it's been so beautiful to watch this unfold and it's still unfolding. We're still figuring things out and how, how this will look for us and for our community specifically. So those are all the things, Danielle,
Danielle (05:34):
That's so many things. I mean, that's funny. You've been on a journey, right? We were, I think we paralleled like being in grad school together for a bit.
And then you graduated and what's your master's degree in?
Misty (05:46):
It's a master of divinity.
Danielle (05:48):
Okay. So you're a boss,
Misty (05:50):
, that's the goal, right? I mean, that's the goal,
Danielle (05:53):
And so I, I know you were on this journey, like what is, uh, what does the next step in life mean? Like, I have my degree, what do I wanna do next? And so I know you've been exploring and allowing yourself to try different things, and I don't know if you'd be even be willing to speak about like what it was like to like live in that unknown or be exploring that.
Misty (06:16):
Yeah, so incredibly uncomfortable , so uncomfortable. Uh, you know, that part of my story is leaving a really traumatic church experience and, and feeling so confused because that happened just as my seminary time was ending and feeling like, Okay, God, I really feel like you led me into seminary. I feel like this was the right move. And yet here I am, uh, I'm no longer part of a church. Like we didn't have a church to attend. I wasn't working at a church anymore, and that was March, 2020. So it's pandemic. So finding a new place to come together to worship with people, uh, it it was just a really tricky PO process. And we have met some great church planters and church people along the way, and that's been part of this redemptive story for us, Uh, to see, to see healthy churches that are functioning well, people who really love each other.
Well, that's been so good. And still, and I'm gonna be real honest here, that Tuesday morning, uh, so a week ago Tuesday, I'd been praying about this, this position that I was just offered. And I, and I've been praying for months, like, God, what, what is it that you want from me? Like, have I really missed so many cues for you? Or have I messed my life up too badly that something good can't come from this? And just so many big doubts. And that morning I'd had it really, my husband who has been working from home, uh, actually went into the office that day. So I had the whole house to myself, and it was my voice raised to God. And I don't mean like raised and praised, I mean like, I was yelling at God and tears and like, What do you want from me? And I'm so frustrated. And in that same time is when I was getting the email saying, Hey, can you send us your resume and cover letter for this job? So then I had to go back to God the next day and be like, Thanks for loving me how I am.
But also like he sees, he sees these frustrations. He knows how difficult this liminal space is. And, uh, that is much as I know that I'm seen and known and loved by God. I couldn't feel that then I, I felt so, uh, yeah, not seen, not understood, not heard. And I know that timing and prayer isn't necessarily our timing. And still, I was just getting to the end of my patience
Because you can't see, you can't see when the end is coming. Right. The, I didn't, there wasn't anything in my path at that moment that even looked like a glimmer of hope to me mm-hmm. and I was at my lips end.
Danielle (09:20):
Yeah. Yeah. So you've got an invitation to submit a resume and a cover letter. Like how did they find you? Do you know?
Misty (09:27):
So I'd applied for the job. Okay. And, uh, through an online application process. And they specifically wanted my resume and cover letter to go to a specific person, so that, to the hiring manager. So to send it again, which allowed me the possibility of rewriting my cover letter because I'm an overthinker Danielle, I, I wrote one, I sent it, it was specific to the job, but still kind of generic. And then I'm thinking about this over the course of like, what, three or four days? Like, Mm. I should have said this. So then I did.
Danielle (10:00):
Yeah. I love it that you gave your chance yourself a chance to rewrite the cover letter yourself permission to say, Hey, I wanna do this differently. And you tried it.
Misty (10:11):
Yeah. Yeah. And it's paid off. Uh, the meetings with this organization were so good. And now I have a friend who started working with them on Tuesday, and she, uh, has been just talking about her time with them so far, and how it seems to be like real relationship, like healthy relationship between, uh, director level and employee level and management. And, uh, so just, just to even have this hope of, of a healthy work environment mm-hmm. is really encouraging.
Danielle (10:45):
Right. Because part of what I think was like stalling was this traumatic event at this church organization.
Misty (10:52):
Yep. Yep. And all of these people who I believe really love Jesus, and yet people who really love Jesus can behave very poorly sometimes. So, uh, and, and I'm not, I I'm guessing that we're gonna have moments of that too in this new position. I am not looking for rainbows and unicorns here. I, uh, I hope to be in a space that, that we recognize when we are behaving poorly and can ask for forgiveness after that. And, and that's been some of the, the redemption, the restoration story from this church experience too, is that there's been lots of healing in those once broken relationships. And while they'll never be what they once were, they're so much better than what they were two and a half years ago.
Danielle (11:45):
How do you see your experience now as you're mo you've moved through so much liminal space and now you have like many jobs.
Misty (11:54):
It's too many.
Danielle (11:55):
Yeah. Too many. Like how do you see that traumatic experience right at the tail end of grad school? Like, has it reframed it for you? Has it cemented things for you? Like Yeah.
Misty (12:07):
Yeah. Good question. I, one of the things, it's made me more aware. So even going into the interview process for this new position, I was, uh, very upfront with the questions that I had about things like accountability and support for their leaders mm-hmm. . Uh, so how, how does this organization, uh, I don't know that you can actually ensure, uh, that there isn't going to be any bad behavior, but what, what are, what does this organization do to, uh, to try to prevent it anyway, to, to keep their people accountable? And there were some really good answers, and those were questions that I wouldn't have necessarily thought to ask before. Uh, because with the work that I do with our church plant, well, I'm the person that needs the accountability. And, uh, because that's something important to me. I'm, I'm, I'm very open and honest with the people that I'm leading.
Uh, with the work that I'm doing at Bethel University, uh, I am accountable to a director who also is very open and communicative and also, and then, and then there's the work with Steph and Joe, and we just know them so well. So it's just not something that I even think about with them. But going into this, it's a larger organization with people that, I don't know, it made me more aware of. I, I want to know the answers to these questions before I would ever say yes. And it, it seems to me like they have really good systems in place, uh, to try and avoid some of maybe that celebrity culture that we've seen in the Christian realm in the last few years. And, and a lot of the shake up and the, the lights that, the light that's been shown on some bad behavior in Christian culture. Mm-hmm.
Danielle (13:59):
How do you, I think what I hear is you see yourself as part of the change.
Misty (14:05):
Yeah. Yeah. That's been my part of my hope.
It was in the last church too. And, and part of that is there are a couple of things. One of them being a woman in ministry, uh, and coming out of a highly complementarian setting, uh, and also wanting something so different for the church as a whole. And I would, I would say specifically the, the Western church, uh, wanting to be part of something that's so much like in the community, getting to know the people, whether, whether people ever come to your church or not, But getting to know people and really caring for them. Uh, that's been part of the change that I've wanted to see. And now there are ways in which I get to be part of making it.
Danielle (14:53):
What things do you particularly latch onto as, um, as pre, like, as ways you wanna engage leadership?
Misty (15:01):
I love being able to see giftedness in people and then to challenge them to use their gifts. I also love learning from other leaders. So for instance, in our church plant, we're small. We are about maybe seven households right now. And, uh, in that, I've seen three other people who are excellent communicators. And so they, they teach for us sometimes on Sunday mornings, but also in that we have people in, even in the small group of people we have, uh, Gen Z through, I think boomers probably. Okay. And, uh, and then people, like my very own son-in-law right, is from El Salvador. And so we have different perspective from him. We have, uh, a family who, the husband in the family is African American, the wife is Iranian. And, um, so just learning different perspectives from different people and how do we incorporate that into our church? Because isn't at the beauty of the kingdom of God is people from every tribe and tongue and nation. And so I think to be an effective leader in our community, in our family, in our church, it's really about seeing people for who they are and how uniquely they're created and celebrating that instead of trying to make everybody be the same.
Oh, it's been a really, um, maybe like more like Lewis and Clark style, right? Like, it's taking some time, it's taking some time. This isn't a, a fast trail. Um, cuz when you think about, okay, let's think about really creating a trail and like chopping down branches and making a path and going through storms and, and whatever that means, uh, there's a lot of grit that comes with it and, uh, you don't necessarily see the rewards right away. That's been one of the things that I've had to really hold onto in the last couple of years, is in a society that highly values instant gratification, that's not what this work is about. Mm-hmm. , this isn't about selling a product and seeing profits instantly or quickly. Uh, this is long, hard work that is so beautiful. And some of this, I would guess I may never see the results of it, Right. They may be things that happen in generations to come and can I sit in that tension and, and be okay with it. Mm-hmm. , it's been a lot. That's been a lot of inner work that I've been doing. Mm-hmm.
Thank goodness for my therapist and my spiritual director because I don't know how I would do this without them.
Danielle (18:03):
Yeah. Talk to me a little bit how you care for yourself through this process, because clearly you have your mind around things, you're able to really articulate where you're coming from. And I, my guess is you're doing that with care.
Misty (18:15):
Yeah. Yeah. Self-care has been a key for me. And, uh, also I'm somebody who loves schedule and routine, and so that's gonna shake up a little bit in this next week. Uh, uh, like physical self care. So exercise has been super important to me. I love to lift heavy weights, , it's a really great way to get rid of some tension and walks. It's fall here in Minnesota right now, and it's beautiful. I know that winter's coming, but for right now, I'll enjoy fall. Uh, but my therapist and my spiritual director really are two key people in my life and functions so differently. Uh, and I tell, I tell my kids sometimes I feel like my therapist, I pay her a copay to be my friend , like, she's so lovely. Uh, uh, but just to have these, uh, so my therapist isn't somebody that I know outside of, you know, my normal life.
She is a professional that I've met and, uh, has this perspective of my life that is different from the people who are in my life, who are who, right? She can give me this outside perspective of it. And then, uh, my spiritual director actually is a woman that I've known for, I think 20 years now, or almost 20 years. And she, uh, knows so much of my life and also, um, really is so very connected to the Holy Spirit. And so to have conversations with her, again, with both of these women, it's this opportunity to, uh, see pieces of my life from their perspective, things that I wouldn't see on my own. Uh, so that's been really key for me to, uh, keep, keep calm, uh, to stay focused. Uh, now clearly I told you I just freaked out at God, just a week ago. So that doesn't happen all of the time, but, uh, it does happen most of the time that I can stay focused on what really matters.
Danielle (20:29):
Yeah. So what, what are like your top three things you would tell to someone else in like coming through that liminal space?
Misty (20:43):
First, have really good people around you. Really good people. Yeah. Um, my husband has been incredibly supportive. Uh, he just, he's a really supportive man and, uh, has given me the space to like li sometimes physical space, like literal physical space. Like I need to be left alone to process some of these things, but also as somebody that I can have a conversation with. So him, our kids, friends, uh, the people in our church, like these are good people who've come alongside me. Uh, I also am a huge proponent of journaling, and that is because now I can look back, I actually have the same journal for, uh, the last two years. And I can look back on these pages and see some of these repeated prayers and repeated themes. And uh, it helps I think in those times where you, for, for me as a person of faith, where I'm like, Okay, God, are you even hearing what I'm saying to you? And, and then to see maybe the, the gradual answers, whether they're yes, no, not now, whatever they are mm-hmm.
And then the third thing is to take time to see what really brings you joy.
And I think that I, I read something or I saw something the other day about, uh, people who go through long periods of liminal space and can no longer even remember their why or, um, have like no sense of calling anymore because they are just trying to, Oh, it might have actually been stuff. And Joe, it it, it was this like, you just are so used to disappointment that you don't even know what it's like to like long for something or hope for something more. And that holding onto that hope can be really difficult when it's been such a long time since it's been affirmed.
Danielle (22:49):
Right. That feels hard to hear.
Yeah. And you know, like those seasons of drought when, you know, hope is dangerous.
Misty (23:02):
Yes, for sure. For sure. Uh, I was in this training a couple of months ago and they were talking about, it was different language, but it was liminal space and how also also understanding how things might not go back to the way that they once were mm-hmm. . And so it's also learning to, to let go of something so that you can lead in the space that you're in instead of holding onto this hope of the past. Can we hope for something in the future, even if there's this hard thing that you have to let go of mm-hmm. that has been a, a theme in my life. I think you maybe know I turned 50 in August. Yeah. Uh, yeah. Yay. And I'm one of those people I'm super thankful for every year that I get, uh, I, I last both of my parents in the last few years and so you bet I'm gonna celebrate every single birthday that I get to celebrate.
And I've always loved my birthday. I actually celebrate the whole month. But turning 50, I was thinking about this year of Jubilee and that comes from the Old Testament. And it was like after 50 years you release debts, you release people who had been enslaved to you. Um, like so there are these people that are coming out, uh, and have this freedom, whether it's freedom from debt or freedom from being somebody's servant. Well then also there's this letting go of the person who was holding onto the debt. So there it's this, this idea of, for me it's this idea of, okay, what do I need to let go of that I've been holding so tightly to so that I have a room for whatever God has next to me. And that too has been part of this process in the last couple of years. Okay. I'm holding on to some hopes and dreams of, of things from the past and those things, they're not reality anymore. And so can I let go of them so that I can be open and ready for whatever is next. And it's hard. It's been really hard, but it's also been what's been so good.
Danielle (25:15):
I just, I would love to ask people three questions. Okay. Okay. What are you reading right now? What are you listening to and who are what's inspiring you?
Misty (25:26):
Mm, good questions. I am somebody who reads lots of things at the same time, . So, uh, we as our church have been talking about spiritual practices. Uh, we've been calling them Jesus experiment. So I have been going back through some of Ritual Lotus's, the deeply formed life. And also I love that book. I, he is, he is just one of my favorites. I I share almost everything that he has on his Instagram cuz there's so much wisdom there. Uh, and then, uh, the Celebration of Discipline by Richard Foster. Those are a couple of things that I'm reading and I appreciate both of their perspectives. Uh, I listen to a pile of podcasts, so the Lead Stories podcast is one that I listen to every week. I so just for fun, I love The Office Ladies, have you ever listened to that or did you ever watch The Office?
Danielle (26:20):
No, I know what you're talking about though. ,
Misty (26:23):
It's so silly and it's so funny. So it's just a really nice way to not have to think about anything, just just to laugh about something. Gemma Kucher, that's another, I think her podcast is called Gold Digger. Like Gold Geo l Digger and that's primarily for entrepreneurs. But, um, I don't know, there's lots of good stuff that she shares too. And then was the last one what brings me joy or
Danielle (26:49):
What Yeah, sure. What brings you joy? Who or what's inspiring you?
Misty (26:52):
Oh, what's inspiring me? Well, the other thing that you know about us is our youngest went to college in August and uh, it's been a huge change just for all of us. Uh, so three kids. Our oldest is married and she and her husband just bought a house. So that's been exciting. Uh, our son's in Alabama so we don't get to see him actually very much. And then our youngest moves out, so it's just my husband and me at home now. And while he and I like we are enjoying our time together. Uh, it's been this really weird freedom of we don't have soccer games three nights a week anymore. So that's been so weird. Uh, but to see my kids, my kids really inspire me. So to see Sydney and her husband and they've been married now for two years and worked so hard and now that they, um, are working hard again cause they bought this house and there's lots of work to do and thankfully a lot of super handy.
So we can do lots of things, but like to see them coming into their own and finding their own path and life. And now for, uh, London. Uh, so she goes to college the first week is like, Yeah, awesome. I'm on my own and I am making these new friends. And then a couple of weeks later it's like, hmm, there's some conflict between some of these people and I don't like conflict, but I don't really wanna address it. Mm-hmm. and maybe I should just transfer schools. I was like, okay. And then now we are at this place where she's finding where she fits and she is enjoying school and thinking that this will be the uni university that she'll be at for the next three and a half years or so. And to see them all go through such change mm-hmm. and they're doing okay.
But, it's hard sometimes and, and too when like, I see her, our youngest who is almost 19, but still my baby mm-hmm. and she's hurting and she doesn't wanna go back to school mm-hmm. . Uh, but to see those things and no, I can't fix them and also I shouldn't fix them because it's part of what makes her her is learning how to take care of some of these things. Um, again, they're figuring it out and they're becoming stronger, better people for it. And uh, I just so appreciate them and all that. I get to learn, learn through them. I hope that they've learned some things from me, uh, but also I learned things from them.
Danielle (29:33):
Well, I'm sure they're learning things from you because one way to manage transitions is to have strong attachment with your parental figure or figure. And so I think that indicates some groundedness that you've instilled in given to them. So.
Misty (29:49):
Well, thank you for that encouragement,
Danielle (29:51):
Yeah. Well, I mean, it doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be good enough, you know. Yeah,
Misty (29:55):
That's right. Yeah. There is no perfection in parenting.
Danielle (29:59):
No. Um, thank you so much for being with me and you know, I'd love to have you back and interview a guest or you know, love for us to collaborate in the future. So thank you.
Misty (30:10):
Yeah. Thanks for having me. This was so good. Yeah. Talking to you.
Danielle (30:13):
I know. Me too.