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    #36 Lt. Col. Scott Mann - Operation Pineapple Express

    en-usSeptember 26, 2022

    Podcast Summary

    • Genetics and mental health medicationsGenetic testing like GeneSite can help find suitable mental health medications based on a person's genetic makeup, potentially saving time and resources.

      Genetics can play a significant role in how individuals respond to mental health medications, and a genetic test like GeneSite can help reduce the trial and error process. Additionally, a few dedicated and driven individuals can make a major impact in the world, as demonstrated by the actions of Operation Pineapple Express during the Afghanistan pullout. It's important to prepare for emergencies and not wait until the last minute. The gene site test can help find suitable mental health medications based on a person's genetic makeup, potentially saving time and resources. Furthermore, small actions from committed individuals can lead to significant change, as shown by the success of Operation Pineapple Express.

    • Partnering with locals for effective counter-terrorismRecognizing local partnerships was crucial for US forces to gather intel, establish military presence, and prevent future attacks in Afghanistan. Abandoning these partnerships during recent withdrawal leaves many questioning the value of past sacrifices.

      From the very beginning, US forces recognized that they couldn't effectively combat terrorism in Afghanistan without the help of local resistance groups and ethnic factions. Over the next 20 years, this partnership evolved to include the Afghan National Army and police, which were built from the ground up. These partnerships were essential for gathering intelligence, establishing a military presence, and ultimately, preventing another 9/11-scale attack. Unfortunately, the abandonment of these partnerships during the recent withdrawal has left many wondering if the sacrifices made over the past two decades were in vain.

    • Building capacity through partnership with indigenous populationsGreen Berets' unique approach to fighting against oppression involves language and cultural immersion, which has been effective in mobilizing indigenous forces and turning small teams into large fighting forces

      Special Forces, specifically Green Berets, have a unique approach to building capacity and fighting against oppression through partnership and connection with indigenous populations. This approach, which involves language and cultural immersion, has been effective in mobilizing indigenous forces and turning small teams into large fighting forces. An example of this can be seen in the early days of Afghanistan, where Green Berets were able to connect with the Northern Alliance and Poshtings, resulting in a significant increase in fighting forces. This approach is a crucial aspect of irregular warfare and unconventional warfare, and it sets Special Forces apart from other military units. Personal experiences of Green Berets, such as those in Colombia in the 1990s, demonstrate the importance of building relationships and social capital, which can be leveraged during times of crisis or when performing "nasty work."

    • Lessons from a young captainEmpowering and trusting team members, even those with less experience or authority, can lead to successful partnerships and organizational relationships.

      Humility and collaboration are crucial in partnerships, especially in complex and high-pressure situations. The individual with less experience or authority should not underestimate the value and expertise of their partners. In the given situation, a young captain learned this lesson when he failed to prepare for rehearsals during a military mission in Paraguay. He was saved by the quick thinking and help of the experienced NCOs, who not only had the necessary resources but also had strong relationships with local authorities. This experience taught the captain the importance of empowering and trusting his team, and how every contribution, no matter how small, can have a significant impact on the success of the partnership. The captain's humility and willingness to learn from his team ultimately led to a successful mission and a strong organizational relationship.

    • The importance of building relationships in complex environmentsEstablishing connections can lead to long-lasting partnerships and significant outcomes, even in challenging situations

      The power of building relationships, especially in complex and challenging environments, can have long-lasting impacts. The story of the SFODAs and their work in Afghanistan illustrates this concept perfectly. When the agency went in without pre-existing relationships, they had to rely on retired senior agents who had built connections during the Soviet occupation. These relationships allowed them to train and fight alongside Afghan counterparts, creating a 20-year partnership between US forces and the Afghan National Army. Green Berets played a crucial role in this partnership, advising and supporting the Afghan soldiers as they faced the Taliban in combat. The success of these early missions allowed the Afghan National Army to establish a presence in Taliban-held territory and build a foundation for future military operations. The relationships forged during this time also came full circle when a retired colonel, who had trained the original Afghan National Army members, was called upon to lead the Joint Special Ops Task Force years later, working alongside the very soldiers he had trained. Building relationships, especially when it seems inconsequential, can lead to significant outcomes.

    • Long-term relationships between Special Forces and local communities in AfghanistanEffective counterinsurgency requires continuity in relationships and contextual knowledge, not just military action. Immersive living conditions strengthen bonds.

      The long-term relationships built between Special Forces teams and local communities in Afghanistan were crucial for effective counterinsurgency efforts. These relationships, developed over decades, were not just based on military action but also on shared living conditions and cultural exchange. However, the US Special Forces Command did not consistently send teams back to the same areas, which limited the continuity and depth of these relationships. This resulted in a series of starts and stops, which could have been mitigated by prioritizing the continuity of relationships and contextual knowledge over programmatic solutions. The immersive living conditions during operations, such as eating, working out, and sleeping together, further strengthened these bonds. The Green Beret training at Fort Bragg, including the Robin Sage exercise, aimed to replicate these experiences, emphasizing the importance of building deep connections in the context of counterinsurgency operations.

    • Building relationships and immersing in local cultureSuccessful military operations with indigenous partners require building strong relationships and immersing in the local culture. Preparation before deployment, including relationship-building and site surveys, is essential for success.

      Building strong relationships and immersing in the local culture is crucial for successful military operations with indigenous partners. This was exemplified in the U.S. Special Forces' partnership with Afghan commandos, where the expectation was to "go local" and work towards making oneself redundant. This approach led to a brotherhood and high levels of trust, ultimately resulting in the Afghan forces carrying 98% of the combat load in the final years of the war. Preparation before deployment, including building relationships with existing teams and conducting site surveys, was essential for successful outcomes. The U.S. Special Forces community developed a system for building a center of excellence with Afghan Special Operators, who were highly competent and capable. Building these relationships and immersing in the local culture is a key factor for achieving success in military operations with indigenous partners.

    • Young Afghan boy finds home and belonging in Afghan Special ForcesDespite challenges, Nizam's determination led him to join Afghan Special Forces, forming strong bonds with American advisors based on trust, loyalty, and love, but Western approach to imposing democracy failed to consider Afghan cultural nuances.

      Nizam, a young Afghan boy who experienced great loss and hardship, found a sense of belonging and a home in the Afghan Special Forces. Despite his humble beginnings and challenges, he was determined to join and became a commando, displaying remarkable resilience and dedication. The bond between the Afghan commandos and their American advisors was built on trust, loyalty, and love, which was a crucial aspect of the Afghan culture. However, the Western approach to imposing a top-down liberal democracy in Afghanistan failed to consider the unique aspects of Afghan society, which is more tribal and status-oriented. Understanding these cultural nuances could have led to a more effective and sustainable approach to building a peaceful and prosperous Afghanistan.

    • Traditional social structure dismantled by Soviet occupation, leading to power vacuum and rise of TalibanThe Soviet occupation destroyed Afghanistan's traditional social structure, causing a power vacuum and the rise of the Taliban, who initially brought security but ultimately harbored terrorists and led to ongoing instability

      Afghanistan's social structure is deeply rooted in honor-based clans and tribes, which functioned to help communities survive and protect resources in a resource-scarce environment. However, the Soviet occupation in the 1970s dismantled this traditional structure, leading to a power vacuum that was filled by warlords and a prolonged civil war. The devastating consequences of these events paved the way for the rise of the Taliban, who initially provided security and stability in the face of chaos. Despite their harsh rule, the Taliban were welcomed due to the improved security situation, but their harboring of al-Qaeda ultimately led to their downfall and the ongoing instability in Afghanistan.

    • U.S. withdrawal left Afghan forces vulnerableThe removal of U.S. support for Afghan forces, including critical capabilities, led to the collapse of their military and the Taliban takeover.

      The withdrawal of U.S. support for Afghan forces, including contractors providing critical capabilities like surgical platforms, operational fires, and medevac, significantly weakened their ability to fight against the Taliban. This was particularly devastating for specialized units like the commandos, who had been built up in the U.S. image and were reliant on this support. The removal of these advantages led to the collapse of the Afghan military and the eventual takeover by the Taliban. The speaker emphasizes the deep relationships and trust that had been established between U.S. and Afghan forces, making the betrayal of this implicit promise all the more egregious.

    • Significant progress in Afghanistan despite recent eventsDespite the Taliban's return, progress in Afghanistan included dismantling Al-Qaeda, providing education to millions, and the emergence of local security and economic development. Supporting these systems is crucial for future stability.

      The 20-year military presence in Afghanistan was not in vain, despite the recent collapse of the government and the return of the Taliban. While it's heartbreaking to see the current state of affairs, it's important to remember that during this time, significant progress was made in various areas, particularly in dismantling Al-Qaeda and providing education to millions of boys and girls. The Afghan forces took the lead in maintaining security after the end of the official military operation in 2014. Additionally, there were signs of economic development and the emergence of resilient civil society systems, even if they were overshadowed by corruption and Western biases. The Taliban's current grasp on power is fragile, and there are reports of a growing resistance, particularly in urban areas. The speaker emphasizes the importance of supporting these local systems and not abandoning Afghanistan entirely.

    • Hasty Afghan withdrawal's impact on US reputationThe hasty Afghan withdrawal damaged US reputation as a reliable ally and highlights the importance of communication, listening to experts, and transparency in decision-making.

      The hasty withdrawal from Afghanistan was a result of a divisive political climate and a lack of communication between decision-makers and those on the ground. The speaker believes that this pattern of abandoning partners goes back decades and damages our reputation as a reliable ally. The Afghan people should not be counted out, and the international community should continue to support them as they determine their future. Additionally, the speaker emphasizes the importance of listening to those with experience on the ground and working together with partners to address global challenges. The lack of accountability and transparency surrounding the decision-making process surrounding the withdrawal is a concern and warrants further public examination.

    • Building partner capacity in at-risk countriesThe U.S. could have used a Foreign Internal Defense approach in Afghanistan, focusing on local capacity building, but instead prioritized large-scale military presence, missing an opportunity for long-term influence and leaving the country open to foreign interference.

      The U.S. could have employed a Foreign Internal Defense (FID) approach in Afghanistan, which involves building partner capacity in at-risk countries with a small, residual force. This approach was successful in Colombia, where U.S. advisors built the Colombian Special Ops capability over several decades. FID could have helped establish local resilience against violent extremism and acted as a buffer against geopolitical rivals like China and Russia. Unfortunately, this option was not seriously considered by U.S. military leaders, who focused primarily on large-scale military presence and counter-terrorism capabilities. As a result, the U.S. missed an opportunity to maintain a long-term presence in Afghanistan and left the country open for foreign influence, particularly from China and Russia. This miscalculation highlights the importance of considering local approaches and capacity building for effective geopolitical strategy.

    • Support for Afghan allies in securing special immigration visasDespite years of service alongside American forces, Afghan allies face uncertainty and delays in securing special immigration visas due to changing administration policies, putting their lives at risk.

      The ongoing conflict in Afghanistan and the resulting trauma experienced by Afghan special operators, interpreters, and other military personnel has led to a pressing need for support and assistance in securing special immigration visas (SIV). These individuals, who have dedicated years to working alongside American forces, have faced constant combat operations without breaks or leave, resulting in significant mental and physical health challenges. Despite efforts to help them transition into contract work or apply for SIVs, many have faced delays and uncertainty due to changes in administration policies. This situation highlights the importance of continued advocacy and support for these individuals who have risked their lives for the safety and success of American operations in Afghanistan.

    • US withdrawal leaves Afghanistan vulnerable to Taliban advanceThe hasty US withdrawal from Afghanistan left the Afghan government and people vulnerable to the Taliban's tactics, leading to a sense of abandonment and fear among the population and military personnel.

      The hasty withdrawal of US forces from Afghanistan left the Afghan government and its people vulnerable to the Taliban's advance. The Taliban's tactics, including targeted campaigns against Afghan military personnel, proved effective in capturing urban district centers and spreading fear. The Afghan government, already corrupt and self-preserving, was not included in the US-Taliban deal, leading to a sense of abandonment among its people and military personnel. Nizam, a friend of the speaker, faced imminent danger and felt isolated as he tried to hide from the Taliban. The US military community, both active duty and veterans, recognized the impending collapse and began mobilizing to help. The Taliban's takeover was a devastating blow to the US, with the group taking control of US gear and vehicles, and the speaker was left grappling with the loss of friends and the sense that the sacrifice of so many lives had been in vain.

    • Creating a plan provides direction and motivationCreating a plan, no matter how uncertain its outcome, can help break down overwhelming challenges into manageable tasks and provide hope and focus during difficult times.

      When faced with a seemingly impossible situation, taking the first step and creating a plan, no matter how rough, can provide a sense of direction and motivation. In the discussed situation, a man felt compelled to help a friend escape danger, despite the overwhelming logistical challenges and lack of resources. He began by creating a plan on a whiteboard, outlining the steps from a safe house to reaching the United States. This simple action helped him and his team start breaking down the problem into manageable parts, even though the mission was extremely difficult. The act of creating a plan, no matter how uncertain its outcome, can provide hope and focus during challenging times.

    • Helping a Friend Escape KabulAmid chaos, a group of individuals successfully extracted a friend from Afghanistan but were unable to save many others, highlighting the challenges of large-scale problem solving and the emotional toll of war.

      During the chaotic withdrawal from Kabul, a group of individuals, including military personnel, journalists, and political officials, came together to help extract a friend from Afghanistan. The team, which was informally organized and lacked official resources, had to navigate various challenges such as moving through crowds, bypassing guards, and securing visas. Despite the urgency and complexity of the situation, they managed to get their friend to the airport and onto a plane. However, they were unable to save many others, leaving them with a heavy sense of responsibility and loss. The experience underscores the challenges of trying to solve large-scale problems with limited resources and the emotional toll of war.

    • Volunteers Evacuate Afghans During Operation PineappleA group of volunteers, including ex-military, successfully evacuated around 750-1000 Afghans, including special forces, using their community knowledge, outpacing US efforts.

      During Operation Pineapple, a group of volunteers, including former military personnel, helped evacuate around 750 to 1,000 Afghans, many of whom were special forces operatives, from Kabul. These individuals faced numerous challenges, including hiding their families and moving quickly to the airfield. Some families were even able to be reunited before evacuation. Despite the US government's efforts, these volunteers were able to outdo them in helping these people escape due to their knowledge and trust within the community. The stakes were high, as ISIS was a threat in the crowd, and the operation took four days of planning and execution. The human stories behind this operation are heartbreaking, and it's a testament to the resilience and determination of those involved.

    • A creative solution to evacuate people from Kabul airport using a sewage system named 'Pineapple Express'During the Kabul airport chaos, young leaders led a group of former special operators to create 'Pineapple Express', a sewage evacuation system that successfully moved high-profile individuals and families through a four-foot hole in the fence.

      During the chaotic evacuation from Kabul airport in 2021, a group of former special operators, led by younger leaders like Zach, John, and Jesse, came up with a creative solution to help get commandos and their families out through a sewage system. They named it the "Pineapple Express." With the help of insiders like Captain John Folta from the 82nd Airborne, they established a communication system where shepherds would guide families to the linkup point, and conductors from the 82nd would pull them through a four-foot hole in the fence. This operation moved a significant number of people, including high-profile individuals like the Minister for Women's Affairs, Hasina Safi, through the sewage canal for 96 hours. The success of the Pineapple Express was a testament to the ingenuity and determination of these young leaders, who came up with the idea and executed it despite facing numerous challenges.

    • Veterans and military personnel stepped up during Afghanistan evacuationVeterans and military personnel provided effective solution during Afghanistan evacuation, but faced significant stress, trauma, and financial burdens due to lack of government support.

      During the Afghanistan evacuation, a group of veterans and active duty military personnel, some with established relationships with Afghan commandos and other military personnel, stepped up to help evacuate at-risk individuals when institutional leaders failed to do so. These veterans and military personnel were highly vetted and organized, providing a more reliable and effective solution than the chaos of individuals calling in favors from the top. However, the moral responsibility of the evacuation was shifted onto these individuals, leading to significant stress and trauma, as well as financial burdens. The lack of support from the government left volunteers paying for safehouses, food drops, and other necessities out of their own pockets. The result was a sense of betrayal and humiliation among veterans, with many feeling re-traumatized and even losing their jobs. The situation highlights the importance of addressing the moral injury and trauma experienced by veterans and the need for greater support and resources.

    • Moral injury among veterans from Afghanistan withdrawalVeterans are experiencing deep distress and moral injury due to Afghanistan withdrawal, which can lead to severe mental health issues and suicidal ideations. Institutional leaders need to acknowledge and address this problem to prevent future moral injuries.

      The veteran community, particularly those in special operations, are experiencing deep distress and moral injury due to the chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan and the subsequent abandonment of their comrades and allies. This moral injury, which involves a violation of one's moral code, can have severe consequences, including suicidal ideations and mental health issues. Despite their dedication and sacrifice over decades of service, these veterans feel betrayed and humiliated by the government's handling of the situation. Retired veterans, including former commandos and special forces, are taking matters into their own hands to help their comrades, but there is a striking disconnect between these individuals and the institutional leaders who have the power to address the systemic issues and provide moral recovery. The absence of senior leaders in the public space to acknowledge and address this problem is a significant concern, and the dissonance between the leaders and the led is palpable. The veterans' mental and emotional well-being is at risk, and urgent action is required from institutional leaders to right this moral injury and prevent it from happening to future generations.

    • Supporting Veterans and Afghan AlliesCheck in on veterans and military families, support resettlement efforts, put pressure on elected officials, hold accountable senior military officers, diplomats, and politicians, and consider supporting the Afghan resistance to combat reemergence of al-Qaeda. Address culture shock and integration issues for veterans and Afghan allies.

      We have a moral responsibility to support and care for our military veterans and Afghan allies, many of whom are experiencing moral injury, mental health struggles, and abandonment. The speaker urges individuals to check in on veterans and military families, support resettlement efforts, and put pressure on elected officials to help with safe passage and resources for at-risk Afghans. The speaker also suggests accountability for senior military officers, diplomats, and politicians involved in the situation. Additionally, supporting the Afghan resistance could help combat the reemergence of al-Qaeda. Many veterans and Afghan allies are struggling with culture shock and integration in Western countries, and efforts should be made to address this systemic problem.

    • Afghanistan's Role in Global Terrorism ResurgenceThe withdrawal from Afghanistan has led to a resurgence of global terrorism, specifically from al-Qaeda and ISIS, who are re-establishing the Islamic caliphate and pose a threat to everyday Americans.

      The withdrawal from Afghanistan is leading to a resurgence of global terrorism, specifically from groups like al-Qaeda and ISIS. These groups have a long-term goal of re-establishing the Islamic caliphate and destroying apostate governments in the Middle East and the West. Despite the end of the 20-year war in Afghanistan, these groups remain committed to their narrative and are patiently regrouping in Afghanistan, which is once again becoming a safe haven for foreign fighters from various countries. The Taliban is even issuing passports and visas to these fighters. The former Afghan special operators and intel NCOs who have fought against these groups warn that they have completely reconstituted and are openly training on former Afghan army bases in Helmand and Kandahar. The safety and security of everyday Americans are at risk as these groups have the ability to plan, prepare, project, and refit in an unfettered way in Afghanistan. The veterans who have served in Afghanistan need our support to put pressure on politicians to lead and do the right thing in addressing this global threat.

    • U.S. withdrawal leaves safe haven for terroristsThe abandonment of intelligence networks and local partners in Afghanistan post-withdrawal could lead to catastrophic attacks on the U.S. by terror groups like Al-Qaeda and ISIS-K, and new alliances between terrorists and countries like China, Russia, and Iran pose a significant threat.

      The withdrawal of U.S. forces from Afghanistan has left an unfettered safe haven for terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda and ISIS-K. The abandonment of ground intelligence networks and local partner forces could lead to catastrophic attacks on the U.S. in the next few years. Furthermore, the new alliance between China, Russia, Iran, and other countries in Afghanistan with the Taliban and terrorist groups poses a significant threat. The U.S.'s handling of the situation, including the abandonment of NATO partners, has weakened its ability to counter these threats effectively. The potential for state-sponsored terrorist attacks on the U.S. is high, and regaining the trust and partnership of allies is crucial to countering these threats.

    • The power of individual action during challenging timesCitizens have the power to create change when leaders fail, as seen in AA's story. Current events in Afghanistan may be the first signs of a new upswing. Genetics play a role in mental health meds, and a P.S. in job applications can increase readability.

      Just like in the past when America faced dark times, it is the citizens who have the power to step up and create change when institutional leaders fail. The story of Alcoholics Anonymous serves as a powerful example of this. In the current context, the events in Afghanistan, such as Operation Pineapple Express, can be seen as the first signs of a new upswing, spurred by citizens' desire for leadership and improvement. Additionally, understanding the role of genetics in mental health medications can help individuals navigate the challenge of finding suitable treatments. A simple yet effective tip for job applicants is to include a P.S. in their cover letters, which can increase the chances of their application being read. Overall, these anecdotes and pieces of advice serve as reminders of the power of individual action and the importance of perseverance in the face of adversity.

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