Podcast Summary
Two Former Intelligence Chiefs Share Their Unique Experiences: Eliza Manningham Buller broke gender barriers at MI5, becoming its first female director general, while Sir John Sawers rose through the ranks of the Foreign Office to head MI6.
Eliza Manningham Buller and Sir John Sawers, two former senior figures in the British intelligence community, shared their unique experiences of entering and rising through the ranks of MI5 and MI6 respectively. Eliza accidentally fell into MI5 in 1974 and faced a culture that saw women as secretaries and support staff. She stayed and worked to change the gender dynamics, eventually becoming the director general of MI5 from 2002 to 2007. Sir John, on the other hand, applied to the Foreign Office after graduating from Nottingham University and was accepted, marking his start in the intelligence world. He later became the head of MI6 from 2009 to 2014. Both Eliza and Sir John have extensive experience in dealing with various international issues, including Russia, Ukraine, Gaza, China, Taiwan, terrorism, and technology. They provide valuable insights into the intelligence world and the challenges they faced during their tenures.
Careers in MI5 and MI6: Preventing Threats vs. Foreign Intelligence: To succeed in MI5 or MI6, have a strong work ethic, intelligence, articulation, and teamwork skills while maintaining discretion. Adaptability and openness to new opportunities are crucial.
Individuals with a strong desire to serve their country, intelligence, and a team player mentality can thrive in the security services, such as MI5 and MI6. However, it's essential to understand the differences between these organizations. MI5 focuses on preventing threats within the country, making it more micro and operation-focused, while MI6 deals with foreign intelligence and policy, making it more strategic and macro. The speaker shares his personal experience of transitioning from the foreign office to MI6 and then back to the foreign office, emphasizing the importance of being adaptable and open to new opportunities. He also mentions the challenges he faced due to gender discrimination and the need for discretion and teamwork in the security services. To succeed in the security services, one should possess a strong work ethic, intelligence, articulation, and the ability to work well with others while maintaining a degree of invisibility. Ambition and vanity are less desirable traits, and those who seek public recognition might find a different career path more fulfilling. Ultimately, serving in the security services offers a unique opportunity to contribute to national security and make a difference.
The ideal Mi6 candidate: Sensitivity, teamwork, and trust-building: Mi6 values candidates with sensitivity, teamwork skills, and the ability to build trust and relationships over deal-makers and risk-takers.
The ideal candidate for a career in the security services, such as Mi6, is not a typical "deal maker" or "hard charging" individual. Instead, they should possess qualities like sensitivity, teamwork, and the ability to build trust and relationships. These traits are essential because intelligence work often involves making decisions based on incomplete information and requires a range of experiences and attitudes. The threats faced by intelligence agencies have evolved over time, with the more recent threats being more distributed and decentralized, making intelligence gathering and analysis more challenging. Additionally, trust and collaboration with various stakeholders, including law enforcement agencies and foreign partners, are crucial for effective intelligence operations. Therefore, the security services prioritize individuals who can work effectively in a team and build strong relationships over those who are focused on making deals or taking risks.
Intelligence assessment of Saddam's WMD before the Iraq War: Despite challenges in locating WMD, intelligence community assumed Saddam still had them, leading to errors and criticism. Proper evaluation and presentation of intelligence is crucial.
The intelligence community's assessment of Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction (WMD) in Iraq before the war in 2003 was based on the presumption that he still had these programs, despite the challenge being to find their location rather than confirming their existence. Mistakes were made in the organization and assessment of intelligence, and the presentation of intelligence in a dossier to persuade the public was criticized. The French, Germans, and Russians also believed Saddam had WMD, leading to an argument over what action to take. It's crucial to provide proper intelligence assessments to senior ministers, and raw intelligence should not be given without evaluation by the Joint Intelligence Committee. The intelligence community, including MI6, resisted pressure to include uncertain or biased information in the dossier.
Iraq invasion was a mistake due to lack of connection with 9/11 attacks: The Iraq invasion, driven by false connections to 9/11, led to increased terrorism and played into terrorists' hands.
The invasion of Iraq in response to the 9/11 attacks was a mistake, as there was no connection between Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda. The intelligence community, including MI5, GCHQ, and SIS, had assessed that Iraq was not involved in the attacks, yet the US, under the leadership of Donald Rumsfeld, pursued a connection. This overreaction played into the hands of terrorists, who seek to provoke an overreaction from their enemies. The invasion led to increased terrorism in the UK and gave terrorists like bin Laden the jihad they desired. It's important for leaders to be cautious and consider the potential consequences of their actions, especially when dealing with intelligence and national security matters.
Lessons from past mistakes in handling military agents: Clear rules and proper training are crucial for handling military agents to prevent past mistakes and ensure public safety.
The collapse of autocratic regimes often leads to chaos and power struggles, which can take decades to resolve. This was a lesson learned from the experience of dealing with monuments against the US and UK on the way from the airport in certain countries. In the context of Ireland, the disgraceful case of the military agent named "Steak Knife" serves as an example of the difficult balance between risk and return in such situations. While there were strict rules against engaging agents in criminal activities in the speaker's organization from the late 1970s onwards, mistakes were made in the past. The importance of having clear rules and proper training for handling such cases cannot be overstated. The speaker also shared personal experiences of counterterrorism operations overseas, where the lessons learned from Northern Ireland were invaluable. The threat of sophisticated bombs hidden in seemingly innocuous objects, such as photocopier cartridges, underscores the need for vigilance and effective communication between agencies.
Balancing Necessity and Ethics in Intelligence Work: Intelligence work requires a delicate balance between necessity and ethics, with constant validation of assets and skepticism towards their continued value.
Intelligence work requires a delicate balance between necessity and ethics. Agents working at high levels in terrorist organizations, like the deputy head of counterintelligence operations in the IRA or Al-Qaeda, pose unique challenges. While they may have motivations to work for intelligence agencies, the risk of them being involved in killing people is high. However, abandoning ethics entirely is not an option, as intelligence agencies must maintain a sense of proportion and adhere to legal frameworks. The recruitment process for intelligence agencies has evolved over the years, with organizations like MI6 now recruiting through their websites. However, the risk of an asset being conflicted or double-agent remains constant. Agents must be constantly validated, and intelligence agencies must remain skeptical and challenge their assets' validity, access, and continued value. The case of the "Steak Knife" operation, where an MI5 agent was recruited to infiltrate an IRA bomb factory, is an example of the complex nature of intelligence work. While the operation ultimately saved lives, it also raises ethical questions about the role of intelligence agencies and the potential for agents to be involved in killing people. Ultimately, intelligence work requires a nuanced understanding of necessity, ethics, and the law.
The Essential Role of Human Sources in National Security: Anthony Scaramucci shared his experience of meeting intelligence sources during Obama's presidency, while Katty Kay discussed the impact of fictional portrayals on real-life intelligence work. Both emphasized the importance of acknowledging and appreciating the vital role of human sources in protecting national security.
There are countless brave individuals from various backgrounds who risk their lives to provide valuable information to authorities, including intelligence agencies. These sources are essential in the fight against terrorism and other threats, and it's crucial to remember their contributions despite any Islamophobia or negative stereotypes. Anthony Scaramucci shared a personal story about donating to Obama's campaign and attending White House Christmas parties during his presidency. Meanwhile, Katty Kay discussed the impact of fictional portrayals of spies on recruitment and public perception. While some may see these depictions as glamorizing the job, it's important to remember that real-life intelligence work is often less exciting and more complex. Overall, the conversation highlighted the importance of acknowledging and appreciating the vital role that human sources play in protecting national security.
Role of Intelligence Agencies: Adapting to Changing Priorities: Intelligence agencies like MI6 have evolved from WWII successes, Cold War challenges, to post-9/11 counterterrorism, requiring continuous adaptation and balance in their focus and methods.
The role and focus of intelligence agencies, such as MI6, have significantly shifted over time in response to various global threats. During World War II, intelligence played a crucial role in the UK's success, with operations like Mincemeat and the double cross system. However, during the Cold War, there were challenges, such as the Philby incident. Yet, the intelligence gathered from Soviet agents during this period ultimately saved the West during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Post-9/11, there was a major shift towards counterterrorism, leading to a reduction in resources for other areas and potential imbalance. Agencies, like MI6, must adapt to these changing priorities while maintaining a capable and legal approach to intelligence gathering.
Unexpected sources of intelligence expertise: Maintaining expertise in intelligence, particularly regarding specific countries or threats, is crucial. The best experts may come from unexpected places, and operational independence is essential for intelligence agencies to stay ahead.
Expertise in intelligence gathering, particularly regarding specific countries or threats, can come from unexpected places, and the importance of maintaining that expertise should be prioritized even if resources are limited. The speaker, who spent decades working in British intelligence, shared that the best experts on China were often found in Mi6, not the foreign office or cabinet office. He also emphasized the importance of constitutional differences between intelligence agencies like Mi5 and Mi6, with the latter having more operational independence from the government. Despite the increasing sophistication of foreign intelligence services like China's, the speaker believes that the UK's own agencies are still capable of staying ahead, but the importance of maintaining operational independence and prioritizing expertise cannot be overstated. Additionally, the speaker touched on the history of Russian interference in elections and domestic politics, and warned that continued vigilance is necessary against such threats.
Russia's history of disrupting Western democracy: Russia's use of AI, disinformation, and financing to interfere with Western democracies presents new challenges, but the West aims to protect its values and freedoms, not overthrow foreign systems.
Russia has a long-standing history of attempting to disrupt Western democracy through "active measures," including financing and supporting disruptive parties and spreading disinformation. However, the technological advancements of today, including AI and the proliferation of fake news and distorted images, present new challenges. The UK, like other Western democracies, is working to protect its democratic processes and public opinion from foreign interference. It's important to note that this is not a new phenomenon, but the scale and speed of technological change are new. The West's approach is not to overthrow foreign systems or determine who leads other countries, but rather to protect its own values and freedoms. However, critics argue that the US and other Western powers have also engaged in regime change in the past, making it hypocritical to be outraged by foreign interference. While this may be true, the speaker emphasizes that the exceptions are just that, exceptions, and the primary focus is on protecting democratic values at home.
Interfering in other countries' affairs for democracy may not always have positive outcomes: Interfering in other countries' affairs for democracy can lead to chaos, instability, and unintended consequences. Instead, managing relationships and expectations can lead to more favorable outcomes.
Interfering in the affairs of other countries to install democratic regimes may not always lead to positive outcomes. Instead, it can result in chaos and instability. This lesson has been learned from past experiences in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, and even in the ongoing situation in Gaza. It's essential to consider the potential consequences of our actions and be aware of the hypocrisy and double standards that come with them. In the case of foreign relations, managing relationships and expectations, rather than conflicts, can lead to more favorable outcomes, as seen in the current relationship between the US and China. However, the success of this approach depends on both parties' willingness to engage in dialogue and find common ground.
Political challenges in the UK and US and their impact on international relations: The potential for political change in the UK and US could lead to complex international relations, particularly with NATO and key allies. The ongoing conflict in Gaza and its humanitarian crisis is a major concern, with the need for a wider peace process rather than military action. Addressing the root causes of conflict is crucial for long-term peace.
The political landscape, both in the UK and the US, presents significant challenges for the coming years. The potential for a change in government in both countries could lead to complex international relations, particularly with regards to NATO and key allies. The speaker expressed concern over the possibility of a second Trump term in the US, fearing the impact on democracy, NATO, and international peace processes, such as the one in Gaza. The ongoing conflict in Gaza, and the resulting humanitarian crisis, was identified as a major concern, with the speaker advocating for a wider peace process rather than military action. The long-term consequences of these conflicts include the radicalization of young people and a potential increase in terrorism. Additionally, the speaker highlighted the importance of understanding and addressing the root causes of conflict, rather than relying solely on military action. The speaker's Reith lectures touched on various topics, including politics, economics, and culture, reflecting the interconnected nature of global issues.
Adding sustainability and diversity to Nolan principles: Speakers called for expanding Nolan principles to include sustainability and diversity, emphasized the importance of collaboration, treating people well, and preparing for future challenges like Russia and climate change.
While the Nolan principles of honesty, openness, objectivity, selflessness, integrity, and accountability are important, they may not be sufficient in today's complex world. The speakers expressed a need to add sustainability and diversity to these principles. They also emphasized the importance of working with others and treating people well. Looking ahead, they identified potential challenges including a resurgent Russia in Europe and climate change, which require urgent attention. Despite these concerns, they expressed hope for the future and the need to address these issues with a modernized set of principles. The speakers acknowledged the difficulty of predicting the future and the dangers of optimism bias, but emphasized the importance of being prepared for potential worst-case scenarios.
Leadership and Science Offer Hope Amid Challenges: Former intelligence leaders Manningham Buller and Soanes shared their experiences, emphasizing the importance of young people and science in addressing challenges. Read 'Damascus Station' for an accurate spy depiction.
Inspiring leadership and the potential of science offer optimism despite challenges. Former MI5 Director-General Eliza Manningham Buller and ex-MI6 officer John Soanes shared their experiences and insights. Tony Blair, though an inspiring leader, wasn't an excellent manager. Instead of reading spy novels, they recommended "Damascus Station" by David McCloskey for an accurate portrayal of life in a war zone. Manningham Buller expressed her optimism towards science and its ability to address climate, health, and technology issues. She also emphasized the value of young people in public service. Both interviewees were open about their backgrounds and experiences, a sign of how much the UK has changed regarding intelligence and security matters. Manningham Buller, a high-ranking British aristocrat, and Soanes, a comprehensively educated commoner, provided a striking contrast. Their honesty and candor were remarkable.
John le Carré's impact on British intelligence: John le Carré challenged the traditional 'James Bond' culture, promoting a more law-based and compliant MI6. His advocacy for proper legal basis is crucial in today's world, despite controversy from some in the intelligence community.
John Sweeney's interview with John le Carré highlights the evolution of the British intelligence services, particularly MI6, and the role of John le Carré in challenging the traditional "James Bond" culture and promoting a more law-based and compliant organization. This shift was not without controversy, as some in the intelligence community felt that the focus on legality and processes made the organization too risk-averse. Le Carré, who was remembered by two women in the security services as champions for women, would likely argue that having a proper legal basis is essential in today's world. Another interesting point from the interview was le Carré's disapproval of Gary Oldman's portrayal of spies in the show "Slow Horses" and his wincing reaction to the potential return of Donald Trump. Overall, the interview provides valuable insights into the complex world of British intelligence and the impact of individuals like John le Carré on shaping its culture and values.
