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    Bill Gurley – Direct Listing vs. IPO - [Invest Like the Best, EP.144]

    enSeptember 24, 2019
    What is significant about underpricing in traditional IPOs?
    How does a direct listing differ from an IPO?
    What role do investment banks play in IPO pricing?
    What did Mike Moritz say about founders' courage?
    Why does Patrick O'Shaughnessy advocate for direct listings?

    • IPOs result in significant underpricing, costing $171 billionTraditional IPO process underprices companies, particularly tech firms, by $171 billion, leaving founders and employees feeling taken advantage of. Direct listings offer an alternative.

      The traditional IPO process, which has remained largely unchanged for decades, results in significant underpricing of companies, particularly those in Silicon Valley, amounting to a staggering $171 billion. This underpricing occurs due to a frequency mismatch and the outdated nature of the process. Bill Gurley, a general partner at Benchmark Capital, uses the analogy of a sports team owner or a homeowner finding out their asset was sold for much higher after the fact, feeling like they've been taken advantage of. An alternative, called a direct listing or direct public offering, might be more attractive to founders and employees of early-stage companies as it bypasses the underwriting process and the associated underpricing. This conversation with Bill Gurley sheds light on the issue and the potential benefits of direct listings.

    • Navigating the IPO process in Silicon ValleyUnderstanding the complex IPO process is crucial for investors, founders, and employees in Silicon Valley for making informed decisions and achieving successful outcomes.

      The IPO process in Silicon Valley is heavily skewed towards a small number of successful entrepreneurs and companies, while other parties involved, such as investment banks and mutual fund investors, engage in multiple IPOs each year. This frequency differential leads to anxiety and a reliance on tradition, perpetuating an outdated process that may be questioned in the future. When a new company goes public, they face a lengthy and complex process filled with advisors and handlers, SEC reviews, and roadshows where they present to potential investors. Despite the challenges, it's essential for investors, founders, and employees to understand this process and its implications. The IPO market is a unique and intricate system, and being informed can lead to better decision-making and more successful outcomes.

    • IPO process relies on human decision-makingHuman decisions in IPO process can lead to unpredictable pricing and share allocation, potentially disappointing investors and impacting stock performance

      The traditional IPO process is heavily influenced by human decision-making, leading to unpredictable pricing and allocation of shares. The process involves investment banks gathering indications of interest from potential buyers, often keeping this information private from the company. The goal is to be oversubscribed, sometimes by as much as 10 to 20 times, which often results in ignoring a large percentage of demand. Decisions on pricing and share allocation are made by humans, often favoring certain accounts, even if they have lower bids. This can lead to disappointment for some investors and a potential pop or underpricing of the stock. It's important for companies to understand this dynamic and work closely with their banks to optimize the IPO process.

    • IPOs result in significant wealth transfer from founders, investors, and employees to the buy sideIPOs can result in billions of dollars in wealth transfer from founders, investors, and employees to investment banks due to handpicked pricing by investment banks, impacting tech industry players most recently with an estimated $171 billion over the past 4 decades and $12 billion in the last 18 months.

      The IPO process, particularly in the tech industry, can result in significant wealth transfer from the founders, investors, and employees to the buy side due to the agency problem and handpicked pricing by investment banks. This issue has been escalating in recent years, with an estimated $171 billion in wealth transfer over the past four decades and $12 billion in the last 18 months. For instance, in the cases of Elastic and Zoom, the one-day giveaways amounted to $338 million and $623 million, respectively. These numbers represent the difference between the hand-allocated prices and the first-day closing prices. Had these companies opted for a direct listing, none of this wealth transfer would have occurred. The employees, who often own significant stakes in these companies, also miss out on this value. This issue is particularly concerning as it disproportionately affects founders, investors, and employees, who may not have the same level of market knowledge or resources as investment banks.

    • IPOs can lead to significant underpricing by investment banks, resulting in a high cost of capitalIPOs can result in an average 18% underpricing over 10 years, with top-tier banks charging high fees, leading to a high cost of capital for companies going public. Direct listings may offer a simpler alternative.

      The Initial Public Offering (IPO) process, particularly the role of investment banks in setting the offering price, can lead to significant underpricing, with an average of 18% over a 10-year period for VC-backed IPOs. This underpricing, combined with the fees charged by investment banks, can result in a high cost of capital for companies going public. The variability in underpricing between different lead banks was surprising, with Credit Suisse underpricing the least (3.3%) and Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley having significantly higher underpricing (33.5% and 29%, respectively). This inefficiency in the IPO market can be attributed to the psychological comfort provided by the reputation of these top-tier banks and the anxiety surrounding the IPO process. Direct listings, which bypass the traditional IPO process and its associated underpricing, may offer a simpler and more intuitive alternative. Understanding these details and their implications is crucial for companies considering going public and for investors evaluating potential investments.

    • IPOs can be misleading for founders and CEOsIPOs bring short-term financial gains but founders and CEOs must focus on long-term success and their fiduciary duty to shareholders

      The hype and excitement surrounding a successful initial public offering (IPO) can be misleading for founders and CEOs. The short-term focus on the pop in stock price can distract from the long-term responsibilities of the leadership team to shareholders. The press, which often criticizes short-term thinking on Wall Street, reinforces this short-term mentality by viewing a pop as a positive marketing event. However, the reality is that the pop is fleeting, and the long-term performance of the company is what truly matters. Additionally, the IPO process is a transaction that provides no ongoing involvement or commitment from the investment bank, unlike a venture capitalist firm. Another difference is the use of the green shoe option, which allows for the sale of 15% more shares than initially planned if the stock price pops, leading to a larger raise than intended. Overall, while an IPO can bring significant financial gains, it's essential for founders and CEOs to keep their focus on the long-term success of the company and their fiduciary duty to shareholders.

    • IPOs and Profit MaximizationBanks use green shoe options and lockups to maximize profits in IPOs, leading to volatility and anxiety for companies. Direct listings offer a simpler alternative.

      The underwriting process in IPOs, specifically the use of the green shoe option and lockups, can lead to profit maximization for banks and instability for companies. The green shoe option allows banks to buy additional shares at the IPO price, which they can keep as profit, and the lockups restrict insiders from selling their shares for six months, creating a secondary selling opportunity for banks to make more fees. These practices can result in volatile stock prices and anxiety for companies. Direct listings, on the other hand, simplify the process and eliminate these issues. Additionally, the reluctance of VCs to sell in these inefficient processes contributes to float issues and volatility.

    • Direct Listings: A More Efficient and Accessible Method for Companies to Go PublicDirect listings provide a level playing field for all investors, reducing volatility and allowing faster access to meaningful positions through price-time priority technology.

      The direct listing process for public offerings, as opposed to traditional IPOs, leverages existing technology and market mechanisms to provide a more fair and accessible market for all investors. Unlike IPOs, where buy-side firms often face restrictions and high volatility, direct listings use the same technology that opens stocks every day on the NYSE. This technology, called price-time priority, matches supply and demand anonymously, filling orders at the price and in the order they are received. This system ensures that no demand is intentionally ignored, providing a level playing field for all investors, regardless of their size or reputation. This not only leads to lower volatility but also faster access for buy-side firms to acquire meaningful positions in the company. Overall, the direct listing process represents a more efficient, fair, and accessible method for companies to go public.

    • Direct listing vs traditional IPO: Greater fairness and accessDirect listings offer wider dissemination of info, reduce need for costly roadshows, and allow access to potential investors beyond traditional IPO process

      The direct listing process, as used by companies like Spotify, offers greater fairness and access to potential investors compared to the traditional IPO process. This is because the direct listing allows for wider dissemination of information about the company through digital means, reducing the need for expensive roadshows and one-on-one meetings with investors. Additionally, many companies no longer need to raise capital through an IPO as there is ample funding available in today's market. However, the SEC currently does not allow for primary offerings in direct listings, but this may change in the future. Overall, the direct listing process represents a shift towards more transparency and inclusivity in the public markets.

    • IPO process unfairly favors large buy side firmsThe IPO process favors a select few large buy side firms, leading to wealth transfer and privileged access. A direct listing process could offer a more equitable opportunity for smaller firms and long-term investors.

      The current IPO process is unfairly favoring a select few large buy side firms, leading to a significant wealth transfer and privileged access. This issue stems from the regulatory framework and the traditional IPO process, which requires firms to pay high fees to investment banks to secure a place in the allocation. The SEC, which values fairness and access, may favor a change to this system. However, buy side firms, particularly those who have benefited from this wealth transfer, are likely to resist. For smaller firms and long-term buy and hold investors, a direct listing process would offer a more equitable opportunity to build significant ownership positions. Ultimately, change may come through persuasion and representation from prominent firms, rather than regulatory action.

    • Founders' Intelligence and Courage in Choosing Direct ListingsMike Moritz emphasizes the importance of intelligence and courage for founders considering a direct listing over a traditional IPO. Successful investor Patrick O'Shaughnessy is passionate about the topic, viewing it as a potential solution to protect the investor community and improve the investment landscape.

      The success of a company in opting for a direct listing over a traditional IPO depends on both intelligence and courage from the founders. Mike Moritz of Sequoia emphasized this point in his Financial Times piece. The intelligence aspect is important, but the courage required to make the move is often more challenging. Moritz highlighted that founders who are excited about this new path are already emerging. Patrick O'Shaughnessy, the podcast host, shared his personal reasons for becoming passionate about this topic. As a successful investor, he wants to ensure that the investor community is not taken advantage of, and he sees the direct listing as a potential solution. He also finds the current system intellectually offensive and wants to contribute to a better, more coherent investment landscape. The conversation concluded with a reminder to listeners to leave a review for the podcast and sign up for the book club at investorfieldguide.com.

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    Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383]

    Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383]
    My guest today is Sarah Guo. Sarah is the founder and CEO of Conviction, an early-stage venture capital firm built to serve AI companies. She started Conviction in 2022 after 9 years at Greylock because she believes AI is the most important technological advancement of our lifetime. In our conversation, Sarah discusses the challenges and rewards of leaving an established investing firm to start her own venture. She shares her unique perspective on the AI landscape and reveals her predictions for what we should expect on the AI frontier. Please enjoy this great conversation with the very impressive Sarah Guo.  For the full show notes, transcript, and links to mentioned content, check out the episode page here. ----- This episode is brought to you by Ridgeline. Ridgeline has built a complete, real-time, modern operating system for investment managers. It handles trading, portfolio management, compliance, customer reporting, and much more through an all-in-one real-time cloud platform. I think this platform will become the standard for investment managers, and if you run an investing firm, I highly recommend you find time to speak with them. Head to ridgelineapps.com to learn more about the platform. ----- This episode is brought to you by Tegus, where we're changing the game in investment research. Step away from outdated, inefficient methods and into the future with our platform, proudly hosting over 100,000 transcripts – with over 25,000 transcripts added just this year alone. Our platform grows eight times faster and adds twice as much monthly content as our competitors, putting us at the forefront of the industry. Plus, with 75% of private market transcripts available exclusively on Tegus, we offer insights you simply can't find elsewhere. See the difference a vast, quality-driven transcript library makes. Unlock your free trial at tegus.com/patrick. ----- Invest Like the Best is a property of Colossus, LLC. For more episodes of Invest Like the Best, visit joincolossus.com/episodes.  Past guests include Tobi Lutke, Kevin Systrom, Mike Krieger, John Collison, Kat Cole, Marc Andreessen, Matthew Ball, Bill Gurley, Anu Hariharan, Ben Thompson, and many more. Stay up to date on all our podcasts by signing up to Colossus Weekly, our quick dive every Sunday highlighting the top business and investing concepts from our podcasts and the best of what we read that week. Sign up here. Follow us on Twitter: @patrick_oshag | @JoinColossus Editing and post-production work for this episode was provided by The Podcast Consultant (https://thepodcastconsultant.com). Show Notes: (00:00:00) Our Partners: Ridgeline and Tegus (00:03:30) Welcome to Invest Like the Best (00:04:30) Introduction & Recruiting in Venture Capital (00:05:06) Key Traits for Early-Stage Venture Capitalists (00:06:57) Lessons from Early Investments (00:07:47) The Journey of Building a Company (00:09:01) The Decision to Start Conviction (00:11:36) Launching Conviction and Initial Steps (00:13:43) First Investment at Conviction (00:14:00) Evaluating AI Application Companies (00:16:29) Challenges and Opportunities in AI Applications (00:23:57) Minimum Viable Quality in AI Products (00:33:19) Future of AI and Frontier Models (00:38:56) The Unpredictable Future of AI (00:40:16) The Importance of Efficiency in AI Models (00:44:28) The Business of AI: Costs and Margins (00:45:47) Infrastructure and Hardware Challenges (00:48:54) The Competitive Landscape of AI Chips (00:54:24) The Future of AI and Society (00:56:34) Opportunities and Innovations in AI (01:02:09) Concerns and Ethical Considerations (01:03:36) Debates and Research in AI (01:09:01) Personal Reflections and Closing Thoughts

    Hemant Taneja - Engineering Global Resilience - [Invest Like the Best, EP.382]

    Hemant Taneja - Engineering Global Resilience - [Invest Like the Best, EP.382]
    My guest today is Hemant Taneja. Hemant is the CEO and Managing Director of General Catalyst, the global venture capital firm you’ll hear us refer to as GC. GC has set out to build resiliency across critical industries worldwide. The firm leverages technology to retool sectors such as healthcare, energy, defense, and manufacturing and explores innovative capital structures to support founders and businesses. Hemant discusses how the firm is positioned to respond to the aftermath of crises, including the pandemic, wars, energy issues, and beyond. We also discuss the building of a category-defining healthcare company, Livongo and much more. Please enjoy this conversation with Hemant Taneja.  Listen to Founders Podcast For the full show notes, transcript, and links to mentioned content, check out the episode page here. ----- This episode is brought to you by Ramp. Ramp’s mission is to help companies manage their spend in a way that reduces expenses and frees up time for teams to work on more valuable projects. Ramp is the fastest growing FinTech company in history and it’s backed by more of my favorite past guests (at least 16 of them!) than probably any other company I’m aware of. It’s also notable that many best-in-class businesses use Ramp—companies like Airbnb, Anduril, and Shopify, as well as investors like Sequoia Capital and Vista Equity. They use Ramp to manage their spending, automate tedious financial processes, and reinvest saved dollars and hours into growth. At Colossus and Positive Sum, we use Ramp for exactly the same reason. Go to Ramp.com/invest to sign up for free and get a $250 welcome bonus. ----- This episode is brought to you by Tegus, where we're changing the game in investment research. Step away from outdated, inefficient methods and into the future with our platform, proudly hosting over 100,000 transcripts – with over 25,000 transcripts added just this year alone. Our platform grows eight times faster and adds twice as much monthly content as our competitors, putting us at the forefront of the industry. Plus, with 75% of private market transcripts available exclusively on Tegus, we offer insights you simply can't find elsewhere. See the difference a vast, quality-driven transcript library makes. Unlock your free trial at tegus.com/patrick. ----- Invest Like the Best is a property of Colossus, LLC. For more episodes of Invest Like the Best, visit joincolossus.com/episodes.  Past guests include Tobi Lutke, Kevin Systrom, Mike Krieger, John Collison, Kat Cole, Marc Andreessen, Matthew Ball, Bill Gurley, Anu Hariharan, Ben Thompson, and many more. Stay up to date on all our podcasts by signing up to Colossus Weekly, our quick dive every Sunday highlighting the top business and investing concepts from our podcasts and the best of what we read that week. Sign up here. Follow us on Twitter: @patrick_oshag | @JoinColossus Editing and post-production work for this episode was provided by The Podcast Consultant (https://thepodcastconsultant.com). Show Notes: (00:00:00) Our Partners: Ramp and Tegus (00:03:00) Welcome to Invest Like the Best (00:03:57) Introducing Hemant Taneja and General Catalyst (00:04:17) Global Resilience and Innovation Post-Pandemic  (00:05:56) Re-Globalization and Manufacturing  (00:07:03) Building Livongo: A 20-Year Overnight Success  (00:13:23) Aligning Incentives in Healthcare  (00:15:40) Re-imagining the Investment Business  (00:20:54) Evolution of General Catalyst (00:27:04) Succession and Trust in Asset Management  (00:35:00) Founder-Centric Capital Goals  (00:36:32) Balancing Growth and Liquidity  (00:41:39) AI and Onshoring Productivity  (00:47:10) Defense Investments and Ethics  (00:50:11) Geopolitics and Regulation  (00:53:16) Reflections on Leadership and Strategy  (01:01:14) Hemant's Future Plans  (01:02:55) The Kindest Thing Anyone Has Ever Done for Him

    Jeremy Giffon - Special Situations in Private Markets - [Invest Like the Best, Replay]

    Jeremy Giffon - Special Situations in Private Markets - [Invest Like the Best, Replay]
    Today we are replaying one of our most popular episodes from last year with Jeremy Giffon. I spend all my time trying to find people who have some “singularity” to them. People who seem like they can do an N of 1 something. Having spent many days with Jeremy, he strikes me as one of those people. He was the first employee and general partner at private equity firm/holding company Tiny, which buys and holds internet and technology-focused businesses. Prior to that, he was on the founding team of MediaCore, which was acquired by Workday. The focus of our discussion is on esoteric opportunities that exist in private markets and how misaligned incentives and coordination problems create special situations for people like Jeremy to invest in. The rest of the conversation is wide-ranging and covers everything from compensation advice to meeting your heroes. Please enjoy my discussion with Jeremy Giffon. Listen to Founders Podcast For the full show notes, transcript, and links to mentioned content, check out the episode page here. ----- This episode is brought to you by Tegus, where we're changing the game in investment research. Step away from outdated, inefficient methods and into the future with our platform, proudly hosting over 100,000 transcripts – with over 25,000 transcripts added just this year alone. Our platform grows eight times faster and adds twice as much monthly content as our competitors, putting us at the forefront of the industry. Plus, with 75% of private market transcripts available exclusively on Tegus, we offer insights you simply can't find elsewhere. See the difference a vast, quality-driven transcript library makes. Unlock your free trial at tegus.com/patrick. ----- Invest Like the Best is a property of Colossus, LLC. For more episodes of Invest Like the Best, visit joincolossus.com/episodes.  Stay up to date on all our podcasts by signing up to Colossus Weekly, our quick dive every Sunday highlighting the top business and investing concepts from our podcasts and the best of what we read that week. Sign up here. Editing and post-production work for this episode was provided by The Podcast Consultant (https://thepodcastconsultant.com). Show Notes (00:00:00) Welcome to Invest Like the Best (00:03:15) What defines the nature of a perfect business in his mind (00:05:21) Key characteristics he’d look for in a perfect investment (00:09:58) Coordination problems that excite him (00:14:02) Raising funds and ghostship companies  (00:16:17) Examples of a special situations transaction in private markets  (00:18:55) Building up a sourcing mechanism (00:22:18) The biggest mistakes he’s seen in buying and selling companies  (00:25:42) Refining the underwriting process (00:28:57) Thoughts about minimum rates of return and multiples on capital for the investments he makes  (00:30:44) Being lazy enough to wait for good deals on enduring businesses  (00:33:32) Why people do things they don’t like  (00:35:47) Whether or not he feels like he knows what he wants in life (00:42:58) Hiring CEOs (00:44:54) Really good respective returns in low risk companies and why those opportunities continue to persist    (00:47:05) Tactics for negotiating with and sourcing CEOs   (00:50:37) Binaries - pre and post fall (00:55:58) Being hard to kill (00:59:15) His favorite interview question  (01:06:07) Having an audience is incredibly underpriced  (01:10:13) What else is significantly underpriced (01:12:14) Things he feels are overpriced today writ large (01:15:54) Criticisms of the cult of learning (01:20:21) The one call that everyone needs to make  (01:27:18) Meeting your heroes and having mentors  (01:30:48) Notable differences between the business environments of Canada and the US (01:33:13) Lessons learned from people he admires and models for seeing the world  (01:35:35) Views he holds that would make people scratch their heads (01:40:02) The kindest thing anyone has ever done for Jeremy

    David Senra - Passion & Pain - [Invest Like the Best, Replay]

    David Senra - Passion & Pain - [Invest Like the Best, Replay]
    Today, we are replaying what we call a forever episode, which are the few episodes of our show that we think will be as popular a decade from now as they are today. Every time I re-listen to this episode with David Senra, I leave wildly energized and wanting to share that feeling. So we are re-releasing it today for anyone who missed it the first time or hadn't yet discovered Invest Like the Best. David Senra has studied history’s great founders and entrepreneurs in more depth than anyone I’ve ever met, and I’d wager more than anyone else alive. In this conversation, we cover many of the most common themes he’s discovered studying hundreds of entrepreneurs like Estée Lauder, John Rockefeller, Enzo Ferrari, and Edwin Land. Please enjoy this great conversation with David Senra. Listen to Founders Podcast  For the full show notes, transcript, and links to mentioned content, check out the episode page here. ----- This episode is brought to you by Tegus, where we're changing the game in investment research. Step away from outdated, inefficient methods and into the future with our platform, proudly hosting over 100,000 transcripts – with over 25,000 transcripts added just this year alone. Our platform grows eight times faster and adds twice as much monthly content as our competitors, putting us at the forefront of the industry. Plus, with 75% of private market transcripts available exclusively on Tegus, we offer insights you simply can't find elsewhere. See the difference a vast, quality-driven transcript library makes. Unlock your free trial at tegus.com/patrick. ----- Invest Like the Best is a property of Colossus, LLC. For more episodes of Invest Like the Best, visit joincolossus.com/episodes.  Past guests include Tobi Lutke, Kevin Systrom, Mike Krieger, John Collison, Kat Cole, Marc Andreessen, Matthew Ball, Bill Gurley, Anu Hariharan, Ben Thompson, and many more. Stay up to date on all our podcasts by signing up to Colossus Weekly, our quick dive every Sunday highlighting the top business and investing concepts from our podcasts and the best of what we read that week. Sign up here. Follow us on Twitter: @patrick_oshag | @JoinColossus Editing and post-production work for this episode was provided by The Podcast Consultant (https://thepodcastconsultant.com).  Show Notes [00:00:00] Welcome to Invest Like the Best [00:03:01] First question - When he first fell in love with reading [00:07:01] What’s rooted in his own history that’s made him obsessive about studying history’s great entrepreneurs and founders - Founders Podcast [00:10:34] The first time he connected with someone as a positive role model that he was reading about  [00:13:45] How often obsession is apparent in the founders he’s studied across hundreds of biographies  [00:18:08] What is often behind obsession and how people listening can apply the lessons to their own lives [00:22:45] The dynamic and relationship between inspiration and perspiration  [00:27:11] Commonalities between the layers of leadership and support underneath founders [00:31:52] Where else he’s seen ego rear its head in good and bad ways  [00:38:34] How often do great founders break the law or enter gray areas of it  [00:41:22] The role constant learning and listening plays in success [00:45:12] Talking about how anything worth doing is worth doing to excess  [00:52:18] Describing the soul of founders and businesses [00:58:39] What he’s learned about all of these founders as it relates to marketing  [01:04:38] A common story that process is often art  [01:08:10] Who David's idols are in podcasting [01:14:55] Major aspects of people he’s studied that haven’t been discussed yet [01:19:55] The kindest thing anyone has ever done for David

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