Brand Themes

A full transcript of the episode:

INTRO TO ARCHETYPES

M: Welcome to Brand Frontlines, the podcast wher brands building gets real. I'm Marissa La Brecque, founder of Hyperflore.

E: And I'm Eric La Brecque, principal of Applied Storytelling.

M: Today we're doing something a little different. Usually we cover one element of the Brand Wheel in each episode. The Brand Wheel is our organizational system for a brand. But today we're going to keep on personality, which we covered last time. We didn't have time to get to archetypes, which are super helpful tools in building a personality. So we're going to dive into those today. No guests, just the straight dope on archetypes, what they are, why they're useful, how we find them, how we present them, and also the risks of using them. And then next episode, we'll cover brand promise. But before we get into all of that, what are you working on today, Eric?

E: Right after we talk about archetypes, I'm going to go into a virtual work session with the Henry Ford, one of our oldest and biggest clients. And the Henry Ford is thinking about their vision. Actually, they just are in the final stages of wrapping up their most recent strategic plan, which was driven by the vision in part, and they're getting ready to think about their next one, which coincides with their 100th anniversary. Just kind of want to make sure that the vision that's guiding them is on track. So we're going to look at it. Nothing may change, or something may change, or there may be some supporting detail that we add. So that's what's coming up.

M: I’m working on selling a course to my clients. Actually, I realized earlier this year that because I work with smaller businesses, once we're done building the brand, we've got the platform set up, we've we've done messaging, they want to keep working together to do social media or newsletters or any kind of ongoing content, but they can't afford to have me on retainer. So I created some courses. The first one, we're working on is email marketing courses. And so we're gonna like really sit with them, make sure they actually have a landing page, when we're done with the class, make sure that they really know how to create calls to action, all the things to make their emails, make money for them, but also to still feel not salesy or cheesy or too aggressive, any of the things that they're worried about feeling like that, keep them from writing those newsletters. So I'm really excited. I feel like it's a really a solution for my clients.

E: I remember something you told me a few weeks back that was really interesting was how a lot of your clients are just really hung up on social media, it's a source of real stress for them, because they know what's important, or they've been told it's important. A lot of them can see how it'd be really useful. But they're small, and you know, just the effort to get something out, especially if that's not your thing, right? You're a baker or you're making fragrances or whatever it is that you do. You don't have the staff to keep pumping stuff out. You may not have the budget to hire a social media person part time or a PR firm. And so it's a source of really great anxiety. It's where the price and the value don't really line up in the market. So I think what you're doing is great. I'm going to be listening.

ARCHETYPES: WHAT ARE THEY?

M: . So archetypes Let's talk about what they are. They have a historical context.

E: , they do. I mean, we've been dealing in archetypes for a long time as a species. I mean, some people would say, they're hardwired into our brains. We've known about archetypes for probably before we had a word for them, or a system of organizing them. The person who's generally credited with that is Carl Jung, 20th century psychologist, and archetype person. You know, what he did was kind of called out and then talk about how they could be kind of organized, what they are, are these kind of models that live in our heads— live rent free in our heads, as people say, and they crop up in literature, they crop up and how we tell stories, which is what's really interesting for me.

M: I really noticed that with our kids like, the concept of a king and a queen, and, you know, a knight or a hero, these concepts like, obviously, don't track with anything that they see in, in real life. But they just resonate so hard.

E: , they do there. And they, they shift a little bit across cultures, the names for them might shift nuances, but they're basically embedded in every culture. And they've been with us down through time. So there are these basically these forms in our psyche, and they bubble up as motifs, themes and art literature in our lives, you know, and that's really what they are. When we're talking about personality, we're looking at archetypes that are types of being, but they're archetypes of all different kinds. There are archetypes for buildings, there are archetypes for other kinds of objects. There are archetypes associated with ideas. There are archetypes for all different kinds of things. If you want to actually just enjoy living in the world of archetypes for a little bit. There's a great novel, I've just read it, called Piranesi by a British author named Susanna Clarke. And it's about somebody who's kind of lost in a world of archetypes. They're surrounded by statues, millions of them. And these statues represent sort of typical classic scenes that you might find in life. That's enough about that. But it's a great read, well written kind of gives you a flavor for archetypes from a different angle.

A lot of models have 12 archetypes. But I've seen models with where they're like 72. There could be an infinite number. But humans like systems, right? We like to boil things down, I think of archetypes is kind of like the zodiac signs. There are 12 of them. That Tarot Deck has its number of the Arcana, right, you know, we like these patterns—the I Ching. So 12 is a common number. There's no universal agreed upon set. But 12 seems to be a pretty common number. And there are generally, you know, 12 distinct archetypes that most people recognize.

ARCHETYPES AND BRANDS

M: Okay, so let's talk about why they're useful when you're creating a personality for a brand.

E: So go back and listen to the last episode, because we'll get into all the different aspects of a personality, all the different qualities that go into a good personality from a brand standpoint, but what an archetype should be doing for, for you, for your brand, for the people expressing the brand, through design through words, is rolling those individual qualities up into one recognizable, easy to understand type of being. So an archetype might be a magician, a lover, a ruler or queen, the sage there are these different every person, you know, these different types that have qualities that we can generally recognize. And if you can kind of take all the individual personality attributes and recognize the overarching pattern, then it becomes really easier to use, you're not thinking about this and that and fitting those things together. Right? You have this larger model.

M: it allows you to embody the brand get into character. ,

E: Absolutely. And it's so important to brand building that some agencies, not us necessarily, but some agencies really make that kind of a central thing that they're trying to discover about a brand.

GETTING CLIENTS ENGAGED IN THE PROCESS

M: I also find just in client relations. It's one of those things that's fun, and it feels like a little treat in the process You know, it's nice to have those little high points that people get excited about it. A lot of the stuff feels very theoretical. And so this feels like a product like something that people really can wrap their heads around, and they get, they get excited. So it's kind of a little high point in the brand building process.

E: Well, I'm glad it's a high point for you and your clients. Not always the case for us, I mean, generally a great thing to have an archetype. Not all organizations really have the appetite for it. So we try to kind of figure out if it's going to be something that's going to be well received. And what I guess what I mean by that is, to some clients, it seems a little woowoo. You know, here, all of a sudden, we're introducing something that feels a little bit like astrology or something like that, that they don't necessarily relate to. So we want to check on that. And then the other thing is, sometimes, the archetype that suits them, and their brand isn't one that they personally relate to life, you want to be a ruler, you want to be a sage, and look, all your qualities are saying, really, this brand should come across as every person or lover, and that just doesn't feel right to you. So that kind of label if it doesn't feel good to them personally, even if the quality's right, too, it can be triggering.

M: I agree that I also find it's an emotional moment, like we've talked about this before, like naming is often emotional, because it's so directly linked to identity. And people have expectations, and they want it to feel amazing right away. And sometimes it requires some rounds. So it's definitely something when you're building up to that process to be aware that there's an emotionality around it. And people have really strong reactions. And to prepare them, like you're saying, make sure there's an appetite for it, and just prepare yourself that you're going to have to like, stay cool, absorb that response to it in a correct way.

E: I mean, another thing, if you decide to go down the archetype path is to look at that label and make sure that maybe there's another label that is actually more helpful or more relatable to your client. We had a client, I don't even know what the previous label was, but it wasn't quite working for them. And we came back to the idea of a mentor. And that word worked for them better.

M: I know what you're saying I think there's a lot of ways to kind of prepare people for it get clients on board, basically, with a concept that might be foreign to them or might feel, as you said, triggering. One of those, as you mentioned, is to give it a name that feels more familiar or flattering. But one that shares the same characteristics, or maybe just a word that's more in their lingo than a union word.

DEVELOPING A BRAND ARCHETYPE

E: I think that's a very important thing to do. The other thing is, if you are going to go down the archetype path, I think it's something you get your client to buy degrees, it's kind of a frog in the water kind of thing. And so once we've got the personality attributes, then it's sort of like a detective story that we want to take them on. So what are those attributes add up to what kind of people have those attributes, and then we introduce the idea of an archetype. And we'll play back the 12 classic archetypes not a lot of detail, but just so they they see the names and then they see some brands that are generally understood to represent those archetypes and a couple of qualities associated with those archetypes, then they can start to connect the dots between those qualities that different archetypes have and the qualities that their brand has their brand personality has, then we can start to kind of get into some specifics and talk about okay, where do those qualities align? What are the qualities that you're responding to? Planned in a great table of archetypes.

M: This is kind of like a side conversation that we'll cover when we get more into talking about presentation, but I love what you're saying about showing your work. I think early on, I felt like if I just show up with the finished product, it feels like magic to the client and they're gonna think like ‘Wow, she's such a genius’ But it's so important to remember that it actually feels so much more satisfying when you bring the client along when you show them every step, in your presentation, of how you got from A to B, use their quotes and their ideas within the that framework. And then it's it's just so much more satisfying at the end of the process.

E: Well, I mean, it's something we're always trying to figure out new ways to do it new ways to get them more engaged without claiming too much of their time, right. I mean, they also we've had people tell us so how much of this time how much is my CEO going to be involved? Or if I'm the CEO, how much of my time are you going to take and we need to be able to give them a clear answer. And also, clearly, they're asking because they have some limits that they don't want to go past share. That's part of it.

So now we're looking at their qualities and we're looking at the different kinds of archetypes and we're asking them to kind of find the matches. And what we find by the way, when we do that is that generally speaking, the qualities that they've identified cluster because they're already thinking in archetypes, although usually we don't call it that. But they don't cluster always around one archetype, one type, you know, there might be let's say, there are three qualities of out of five that tend to be associated with like a sage, a wise person, but there are two that are associated with I don't know a lover.

Then we try to figure out, Okay, which one's the dominant one, which of those qualities are the most important? Which one is the kind of the recessive one, and the secondary one? And if we're looking for a kind of universal character who has both of those, what is that called? Right? Right. So it's not going to necessarily be on that 12 point, we'll we're going to have to get creative about it. So we try to figure that out.

M: I almost always do a hybrid of more than one. Almost always.

E: I think for one, it's a little more nuanced, right, you know, and so it doesn't have all the baggage, right, that goes with those labels. And, you know, labels and baggage are big issue in our business. But again, we're trying to get them along here. And so they're kind of nodding and they're kind of going okay, maybe that's right, the next kind of things that we present to help help them and you know, embrace the idea and also to be useful as tools are the idea of avatars. So avatars for us are characters who embody the archetype. And they're not all going to be exactly the same in their qualities, but broadly, they're going to kind of flesh out the archetype and we go to Avatars can be from people in real life. Generally, famous people, can be people in a company. So everybody in the company can recognize them. They can be characters from movies, books, manga, and on ma really anything. So we try to find a good representation. And when we do that, which we're trying to be diverse, actually. So are there we want to we don't have anybody from literature. We don't have to be an older white man. We try to find people of different ages, different periods of time and come up with a mix of six or seven individuals real or fictional, again, who represent that archetype.

So that's pretty fun, actually, a great tool, by the way to help find those because who's got a catalogue of avatars in their head right. Even though I read a ton, you know, and we watch a lot of shows their worlds I'm not as familiar with, like, I'm not as familiar with, you know, manga, or characters and video games a little bit, but not so much. And some of those can really resonate with our client, right. So that's where this tool TVTropes.com is super helpful. I can't say enough about it as a resource. It's got tons and tons of what they're calling TV Tropes, but they're really archetypes, a lot of them and their characters and there are plot twists, devices or all kinds of things. Again, it goes back to that broader idea of what an archetype is, but if you are looking for some examples of an archetype, and once you run out of the very limited set you've got in your own head TVTropes is a really excellent resource. I can't say enough about it. That's another part of the delivery is giving the client some examples that they can relate to. And then the last thing we do is we create what we call a Credo Statement, which is is if the, the archetype is talking, you know, what would they be saying so, five or six could be more but generally five or six statements that this avatar would state?

What do they believe what what's important to them? How do they interact, what's their role in a group, things like that, and these credos become very valuable. as well. In organizing again, what's this all about? Let's go back to that. It's about helping creatives get into the zone really quick get the vibe of the brand, and not have to keep breaking frame to go refer to some technical brand guideline or some attribute but just go with the flow. Right and really nail it. So that's what these tools are designed to do.

M: Sometimes I'll create an avatar or persona, instead of using a classic archetype. For me, that's a sort of a creative choice. Sometimes with clients, something will come to me that feels really right and evocative. Or I feel like a client for some reason is just not going to respond to the classic archetypes and it's basically the same thing. But just something that's very specific, a character that I can just hear talking in the brand voice, you know, that requires really fleshing it out.

USING ARCHETYPES TO DISCOVER PERSONALITY

E: Who is this character that doesn't have as much baggage Maybe so, you know, really giving the client enough that they can get into that character? That's a great approach, really valuable. We've done that from time to time as well. The other thing while we're on the topic of archetypes point out is that you can use archetypes as tools to discover not just roll up personality attributes into archetypes, but use archetypes to explore what a brand personality could be. So we don't do that as much. We've started to do a little bit more. We recently worked with a company where we didn't explore the personality the way we normally would, which would be in a work session where we're asking tons of questions. We're going through all their other different kinds of exercises. But we just said, Hey, look, here's 12 Different archetypes, which one feels right for you, or which ones feel right for you. And then we went in deeper into the qualities of that archetype, not the top two. Or three traits that are just kind of sketched out in the high level tables that you find when you go looking for them, but really going into a lot more depth about how the archetype works and what those qualities might be and it was super valuable for landing on a set of attributes so personality, attributes and form archetypes. archetypes can inform personality attributes, played both ways.

AN ARCHETYPE PITFALL TO AVOID

M: So are there any other risks associated with using archetypes? We talked about just the emotionality or the culture clash…

E: I think there's one huge risk. Fortunately, if you're aware of it, I think you can avoid it and you can actually use it to your advantage. And that is the risk of creating an archetype that's like, every other archetype in your category. Again, we go back to like, what are we trying to do here with the brand story brand, we're trying to help you stand out in a way that could only be you and nobody else? That's the whole point of positioning. That's the point of personality. That's the point of a lot of what we're doing and you need to be careful not to typecast the archetype. , by category, you know, and so for example, Nike is a hero brand, and I can see that , okay. Does that mean that all athletic wear brands or sport brands or heroes could be writing Yes. 10 thing right and then so so then what right so if you're using the archetype and you land there, how are you going to set yourself apart from Nike? If you're not Nike, right? How are you going to do that? And that's where I think you should be open to the non intuitive qualities or look for those added layers of personality that separate you. Maybe for example, you decide, well, we are a hero, okay. Nikes a hero and our you know, super shoe brand is a hero too. Let's go one level deeper and define the kind of hero that we are and not use that label. Right? That might be one way to go the other way to go. Might be to say, hey, you know what, there are a whole lot of heroes in this category. Everybody gets it. Why don't we be an innocent, you know, which is somebody who's just very simple and very kind and very optimistic. That might not feel intuitive, but it might be really terrific. Who knows so just be open to, you know, seeing what other options there are, besides the obvious expected archetypes for a category. One big pitfall I see that we always have to work against. , totally.

M: And if you're in a room with stakeholders, it can drive to that conclusion pretty easily. So you’ve got to kind of play devil's advocate there, at least something to be avoided.

E: But hey, look, the benefit is so great, that it's worth dealing with the pitfalls.

M: And it's sometimes the most useful thing to have those kind of awkward conversations because you you saw problems there. So that's pretty much what we wanted to cover on archetypes. We're gonna post a sample presentation of an archetype that we used actually with a client taking out obviously all the clients information, but you'll get to see everything that we include. These are always developing and changing and dependent on the client process, but this is one that's very comprehensive that we'll share with you.

E: If you're using archetypes in your work, or you have questions about archetypes further, let us know be great to keep the conversation going. Thanks a lot.

M: And we'll see you next time on the brand frontlines. Thanks.

[00:00 - 05:12]  

Eric: Hello, welcome to Brand Front Lines with your hosts, Marissa and Eric Labrecque, me. Thank you so much for listening. If you're enjoying the podcast, by the way, please subscribe and rate and share it with any marketing nerds, you know.

Marissa: And check us out on Instagram @brandfrontlines where we are continuing the conversation with some practical exercises and tools, so you can apply all of this to your own brand or your clients’ brands.

Eric: So, this is our first season, and in this season, we're diving into one new foundational element of a brand. And every episode, what it is, why it's important, and how to build it. Last episode was our first look at what we call the brand wheel, which is our model for a successful brand, a successful brand story.

Marissa: So now we are in the wheel, the very center of the wheel, which is held by the core naturally, we're also getting into brand drivers today. These are really important themes to get right. They're pretty straightforward, but I see marketers describe them differently all the time. Today, I googled them, brand drivers to see what came up. And the very first thing that I saw was personality attributes. That's what we would call them.

Eric: Like what? What were some of the things that you were finding?

Marissa: It was a description on a marketing consultants’ website, like a little blog post she done on brand drivers. And for her they were, you know, she had a list of personality traits like  affable, fun, authentic-just personality traits.

Eric: Yeah, you know, so real quick thumbnail here. If you're using an adjective, it's probably a personality attribute. And if using a noun, you're probably talking about a driver or a theme. Think about a story, you know, a writer doesn't sit down and say, I'm going to write a story about the theme funny, you might write a story about the theme growing up. And it might be a funny story, you might inject a lot of humor into it. So just keep those two things in mind as you move forward in your brand work.

Marissa: Yeah, so we'll get more into it. But you know, we'll define them as we define them. And I want to reiterate, we talked about this in an earlier episode. But I think a lot of marketing programs and a lot of courses you can take online, start the brand, later than we do the brand work, they start at the stuff that customers can see, might start with a tagline or an elevator pitch, or even a mission and vision statement, which is very foundational. But you know, these are all things that might end up on your website or in your email communications. But there is some work that's a little deeper that might never see the light of day as far as customers go, but it informs everything that comes after. And it's so important. So, that's really what today is about. It's about that that stuff that is the foundation, it's underneath the building. And it's the platform on which everything else is built.

Eric: Yeah, you really put that well, I mean, just remember, as a brand marketer, you're a storyteller, a little different in many ways, but you share a lot with novelists and playwrights and screenwriters, and cowboys sitting around a campfire. And yeah, and all those people, even the cowboy has done some pre work to understand where the story is going to go and how it's going to hang together. And that's what we're saying, you know, we're about is doing that pre work. Before we dive into our exploration of brand core and brand drivers. What we've been up to today?

Marissa: Well, this is the first episode that we're recording after the quarantine. So, I'm working on, client works looking a little different these days, like I mostly am working with the same clients, a couple of projects got kind of put-on hold but doing different things like brands, most of the brands that I'm working with have shifted a little bit. So, a lot more focus on online sales, communications, pipelines, building email lists, all that kind of fun stuff. All of a sudden, got way more important than long term strategy. It was like alright, let's shift let's make sure we're still talking to everybody. They know where we're at. We're getting in front of them. And so it's been fun. I've learned a lot and I think deepened my relationships with my clients, we're like, in the trenches together on the brand front lines.

[05:12 - 10:24]  

Eric: You know, I've been working with two clients today who called with sudden needs, they wanted to craft their response to current events. First, you know, a couple months ago, it was the COVID-19 crisis. And now it's their response to the real social conversation around Black Lives Matter. I don't want to get too anchored in the moment for the sake of people listening in the future. But basically, both of these events are singular. And yet, the clients, the companies, the brands need to consider how should they relate to them with respect to their brands? What's the right response? What's the right course of action? What fits within the story that they have? How can they be legitimate? Should they even make statements. So, relating the immediate and the near term to the long-term story is something that they're wrestling with, and we're working to help them with.

Marissa: Yeah, I've written statements recently for clients that they're almost are like PR work in a way. But because they matter so much, they really have to have integrity. And so it's just another moment when you really know your brand. And it really is authentic to you, then it's so much easier to speak to something that's important to you with authority and not be performative or cliche.

Eric: Right. And I think it's not only about speaking, that's part of it. But also, what conversations do you want to enter into and listen, you know, there's a lot to talk about right now. And there are a lot of conversations enter into, maybe it's still good to focus. So I think the brand is not only an expressive tool, but a tool to think about who you're going to interact with and who you might need to be listening to that maybe you haven't been listening to before.

Marissa: Yeah, reset your aperture. So, brand core.

Eric: So, what is a brand core?

Marissa: Yeah, let's define our brand core.

Eric: It's the thing that doesn't really change, that lives at the heart of your brand. It's the kind of essential truth of the brand, it's the business that you're in is another really basic way of putting it.

Marissa: Your genre.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, if we were talking about movies, it would be the genre of the movie. So what kind of movie is this? Is it a rom-com, is it an adventure, is it sci-fi? And that helps to set our expectations for what to come? That's one of the uses of the brand core.

Marissa: For what's to come?

Eric: Yeah, what's the rest of the story going to be, you know, put me in the frame of mind to start thinking about you in a certain way. So that's one useful thing about a core. Something else that's really useful about it is it it's always good to know what you are and what you aren't, you know, if you're starting a rom-com, and you start doing things that are a little sci-fi(ish), could be a little bit of an awkward fit. So it helps people internally and also, your audience, your customers start to get expectations and go with you on a journey in that sense to, you know, certain kind of clarity, a certain kind of focus.

Marissa: I'm very interested in science fiction rom-com.

Eric: Yeah, well, there are some weird blends out there. It's just, it's really tough to do, you know, it's tough to pull off. And I think even if we were to go find a really good sci-fi rom-com, we'd probably figure out at some point, it's a little more rom-com or it's a little more sci=fi, one thing's usually going to take the lead. The other thing is that it helps you to understand who you're in the market with and competing against. Yeah, so that's pretty useful too. An example of a brand core from a B2B client of ours, actually, we'll talk about an example of a brand core from a category. So cybersecurity brands, okay, there are a lot of them out there. And let's talk about one little part of that cybersecurity space. We have a company called Prisma. That is about cloud security solutions. So cybersecurity in the cloud. A competitor of theirs - Threat stack is about cloud security as well. They define themselves a little differently, cloud security insights, but basically the same core, and so on through Shift Left, which is about application security, automation, and sis day, which is about container security, and insights and Data Dog, which is about Cloud Monitoring. They're all about this cloud security idea. Each have a little different nuance, but mainly we're understanding that they're kind of grouped together. And it's really important to think about the core as not just thing that sets you apart. But the thing that you share with others so they can start to place you. In a traditional marketplace. The people who are offering one set of services are all kind of together like you going down an alley and all the goldsmiths are there, all the rug, merchants are down another area and helps people to know where to go to find you. And then from there, they can make a decision about who to choose.

[10:24 - 15:15]  

Eric: So like, coke, soda beverage, like what do you call the core and that?

Marissa: Well, I haven't researched this, you're asking me off the top my head. And I think coke would say its core is an emotional attitude called enjoyment, I, most people top of mind are going to think about coke as a set of experiences around a sweet carbonated beverage. So, I would say that, that's its core. And other things like it would be other sweet carbonated beverages, soft drinks. Again, with all due respect to the coke folks, and how they define it, which is probably really useful for them hugely successful brand, it's tempting to get a little tricky with a core, right, like, mostly, we think of it as soft drinks, that's where most of their revenue is coming from. And when they have another idea for another thing to market. When coke does like a water brand, then they give it another name. And they tell another story about it. So, that's kind of an example that I think helps to illustrate just how basic arriving at the basic the core should be. Sometimes it's really hard for companies to arrive at what that what that is, it seems super simple. And sometimes it is. And sometimes everybody's very clear about it from the get go. You know, we make guitars, we make cars, whatever. But there are all these new technologies that create new marketing opportunities and new markets to go into. And that can be tempting to kind of try to redefine your core fuzzed it up a little bit because of these ancillary opportunities. And that's a risky thing to do, can be done, but it's risky.

Marissa: Right. Or to over identify with an aspirational competitor, like you want to be someday like this giant, you know, lifestyle brand. And so you're thinking in that, you know, in that pool, but it's like, you sell tiles. So let's start there.

Eric: Right, exactly. And I think you when you mentioned lifestyle brand, that's a real temptation is for brands that really are fundamentally about being in a certain category, to sometimes aspire to be lifestyle brands. And it can lead to some really interesting marketing experiments and experiences. But I'm not sure if it really moves the needle. An example that I think of recently of this is Taco Bell, that launched a hotel. All right, so a Taco Bell hotel with a Taco Bell experience brought to life. Well, Lord knows what that is, it might be a really cool experience. But it doesn't really change the fact that Taco Bell is a Mexican fast-food brand. Let's not mince words about it. And we normally think about it relative to other fast-food brands or other Mexican fast-food brands. When we're making a decision. We're not thinking about it so much in terms of where am I going to lay my head on the pillow tonight, just not, sorry. So there's some really, you know, legitimate efforts to shift your core it can be really hard to do. One that we were involved in years ago was with Starbucks, you know, Starbucks, most people think of it as a coffee house. Starbucks would like you to think about them as something more than that, they call the third place, and place where you go to hang anytime a day and night. Right. You know, and I mean, coffee houses have always been good for that. But, you know, part of that for Starbucks was, and this is a lot of research and looking at the competition in the marketplace and trends went into this. But basically, the need to kind of move beyond the breakfast segment, the coffee segment in the morning and offer food throughout the day. And it was really challenging for Starbucks to make that shift. I believe that they've succeeded to some degree in doing that. But it wasn't easy. It took a number of tries and a lot of marketing dollars to, you know, expand the idea, and I'm not sure it's fully there on our minds yet, but it was a very concerted effort and, you know, executed with great care.

Marissa: It's also good to know your core because as you're saying, that's a moment when if you're going to shift that, that's not just adding another menu item on your website. It's a serious discussion and a major shift in your identity.

Eric: For sure. And the biggest thing that we think about is how is that warping people's brains you know, they're going to think about you in a different way. And maybe there's a natural glide path for them to think now you're a little bit more than what we thought about before. But it can be a real disconnect, you know, in our town, there's that business on the outskirts of town, that's...

[15:15 - 20:17]

Marissa: Dairy supplies and pool.

Eric: You got pool it. My brain does work. Yeah. So like, I keep thinking of like a swimming pool full of dairy supplies. And it's just not a good picture, you know, like, and maybe there's some synergies there that makes sense. But it just seems kind of like a bad odd fit, that hurts my brain, right. So, there's a real temptation to do this, I think on the part of software companies, because it's so easy to go from one aspect of code into another. And we have brands that represent all kinds of things now, like Amazon, and Google and Microsoft are into all kinds of businesses. And I don't know if I could define the core for any of them. I'm sure they've got it somewhere. But, you know, Google was used to be about information and search, I think we all kind of feel it's about more than that. Mainly there, I guess I think about them relative to each other. They're all kind of jockeying for this kind of total information, delivery, benefit positioning, bears looking at. But anyway, there's a temptation if you're not one of them, too. But you're in software, we've noticed this too, you know, get a little squishy about what that core is, because it's so easy to make your software do something more or discover that it has a new use or application that you didn't think about. The market likes it in a certain way, that was a little surprising.

Marissa: Right. A pivot.

Eric: Yeah, one that you weren't necessarily even expecting, but it's, you know, it's a serendipitous thing that landed on your lap. And now we got to figure out, okay, how do we shifting like, so you know, I have a choice, I can shift my core, you know, off what I was doing pivot my brand at the very, very, you know, central place. Or I can say; You know what, I'm going to stay focused. And this is cool. And I'm going to launch another brand, I'm going to tell another story to a different audience that really wants this. It's not the audience I've been dealing with.

Marissa: So, what are some examples of some brain cores that you've developed or worked on?

Eric: Well, let's talk about the Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian, be a good, good place to talk about a lot of things today. We've been working with them on their brand for the past couple years now. And it's starting to come to life in some exciting ways. So it's a cultural institution. And our work, we needed to look at other cultural institutions that dealt with American Indians in some way. So, you have the Smithsonian overall, right? And this is part of it. So we need to understand what what's the core of the Smithsonian. And it's about discovering and sharing knowledge. That's really what it's all about, at its core. What about the museum's next-door neighbor, the National Museum of African American History and Culture? Well, that's about the African American experience. So, we're kind of triangulating in that way too. Then, you know, we have the National Portrait Gallery, which is about American portraiture. And that's also a brand that we worked on. Now we're getting into the next couple of examples are brand cores that are really closer to the specific core, whatever that might prove to be right for the National Museum, the American Indian, so the Museum of Northern Arizona, is about the culture and nature of the Colorado Plateau. And the Heard Museum is about American Indian art. So little different. Again, broadly, these are all cultural institutions, there are some things that start to suggest some differences at a really high level, maybe. But this isn't positioning yet. We're still really trying to understand the category understand who's in it. And sure, some of the nuances that make them different that we'll explore. But broadly, that's an example of some cores that relate to some work that we did.

Marissa: What category you're in, not where you are in the category?

Eric: Right. Usually, when you're doing core work, you might have one word in there. That's descriptive. That starts to set you apart a little bit, but that's not really the exercise. Again, it's not about differentiating, it's about figuring out who and what you need to differentiate against.

Marissa: So, what do you do if your business doesn't have a category?

Eric: Meaning like you're creating a new category?

Marissa: Yeah, like that.

Eric: Well, that's a really interesting question. A lot of people are asking that right now, category creation is kind of a thing in the brown world, especially in tech companies. There's a book actually, that gets into this that's pretty interesting and will definitely trigger some thinking called play bigger. So you might check that out. Basically, the authors of that book would say, I'm going to paraphrase here a little bit, you know, if you aren't able to create a new category, why are you even going into business? So they would say; Listen, category design is what you should be doing.

[20:17 - 24:34]

Marissa: It's very Silicon Valley.

Eric: Yeah, you know, and I mean, it's very thought provoking, they would say that, you know, positioning is kind of passe, you know, that's not what you should be doing, you should be looking to create a new category, I think it probably applies better in the tech space than in some others. I'm guessing I'm going to stay old school and still think that positioning is important. For one thing, if you create a new category, that's awesome for you. But if it's a good category, others will be in it. And at some point, you're probably going to need to position relative to them. So it's kicking the can down the road a little bit, although, certainly looking at that, if you think you have a new category is good. So we've gotten involved in category creation exercises a little bit. It's been truly valuable, I think, for some companies that we've worked with, but in other cases, I felt like, you know, this verges on category creation wash, like just being able to come up with a cool new label for something is one thing, but really saying and confirming that you are categorically different than other people is, is a whole other ball of wax. And you got to make sure that you're not into you know, marketing, spin innovation, when you do stuff like that. The final arbiter of whether or not you're creating a new category is the marketplace. The intermediary arbiter, who you really want to convince that you're in a new category would be a firm like Gartner. You know, that's really looking at what's going on in categories and can see from a really sound solid business perspective, if indeed, you're in a new category. The other thing that's important to mention just in passing about category creation, is that while there's a huge benefit in being disruptive, and that way, you're going to be hanging out there, right. So, educating people as to what the category is, and what it's all about, and getting them to kind of buy into it is kind of a Storytelling Challenge, you're going to have your work cut out for you, maybe very worthwhile work to do, but just know that, you know, in addition to the things you would normally want to convey, you're going to have to talk about the category and get people excited about that as well.

Marissa: Right. It's almost like another brand to promote. But you're also like, you still have to define why that category is different than categories that came before it, right? Or where it's leaping off from?

Eric: Well, to some extent you do. I mean, I'll give an example from my deep past long, long, long ago, worked with the first company to offer a laser hair removal. No one else was doing that. And so there's this new category, laser hair removal, an evolution of disruptive you know, hyperspace from hair removal, right. Categorically different experience, different level of results, all that stuff.

Marissa: Taking our current understanding of it, it sounds a little terrible.

Eric: Well, you know, it was a little weird, but it you know, it's a category that exists. And for a long time, the company that went into that had first mover advantage, no one else had that technology. And it was very disruptive. And they really own the marketplace. And it was fairly sizable. There was some product development issues that needed to be worked out. But before long... Well, you know, it was arguably not quite ready for primetime when they launched it, but it got there. Point is that in time, there were their laser hair removal, brands competing with it, and the brand we were working on, rested on our laurels a little bit too long and lost its you know, pole position, even though it created a category, right. So when you create a new category, you gain this huge advantage by being the first and hopefully you can really seize on that with brilliant engagement and a really awesome product that performs as promised, but really, you are creating a draft for other people to follow you. And they will. So you better be ready for that too.

Marissa: Nestled around the core and the brand. We'll move out one more level to brand drivers.

[24:34 - 30:25]

Eric: So, brand drivers are Yeah, they're themes. If you're thinking about this from a storytelling standpoint, and actually I have to confess that we're probably going to use the word themes and our communications to our clients and our brand work moving forward more than drivers. But drivers a good place to start because again, that's probably the most commonly used term for this part of the brand toolkit. So, themes I mean themes are important. I ideas that a story explores. So in a brand world, they're important ideas that the brand explores important. They generally come from strengths that the brand has things that the brand wants to engage you around experiences, the brand wants to create, like a good story, there's usually one that bleeds. But there are others that add richness and support that lead theme. When we're developing a brand story, we always start with lemon zest, or zesty lemon as a theme. And if it doesn't work, then we move on. So we're looking for a couple, we don't want to have too many, because then the story gets too crazy and too complicated, not focused and not interested.

Marissa: So, is this like a Netflix search, you've got you've looked under mysteries, and then your little gritty, political thriller.

Eric: No, those are talking about the, the tonality of it. The personality of it. Themes are just their ideas. Like, if you think about a, you know, a big novel, the theme might be coming of age, the theme might be triumphing against all odds, these are big themes, or you could say triumph, or the theme of reconciliation, these are big ideas. So an example the Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian - NMI, three themes that we develop for that platform, inclusion, impact, and understanding. So many of the messages, so many of the things that were important to share that are important to share, really hinged around those three ideas. And we lock on those, then we can actually develop the narrative, using those themes, develop the messaging, and explore them, again, through content and experiences that might be created from that, you know, brand foundation. So, those three themes, inclusion, impact, and understanding which one do you think was the turned out to be the most important one?

Marissa: Impact.

Eric: Right, you are. Excellent. Yeah. So the positioning that we landed on is the National Museum of the American Indian that is global, in scope, relevance, and impact. So there are other museums out there, other museums that focus on different aspects of the Native American or the American Indian experience, but they're not global in their impact. So impact was kind of the lead theme. But the other things inclusion, very important to talk about a lot to say about and understanding as well, you know, creating a deeper understanding among all peoples of Native American experiences, contributions, lives, culture, really important, right. But in terms of driving the brand forward, that impact turned out to be the lead one. We need them all, though.

Marissa: Yeah. So this seems like something that could get very aspirational and not necessarily, like rooted in the reality of the brand pretty easily. Like, is it important to be something that's evidenced by what's come before? Or can it be, like a vision statement that's a hope of what the brand will achieve?

Eric: That's a great question that applies to so many aspects of the brand platform. There's always an aspirational element in the sense that you're always moving forward in time, you're always sharing the story with your audience, your audience is always sharing it back and sharing it amongst others. There has to be enough there to make that theme worth talking about, might be sort of like a Wikipedia article where it's kind of a stub. So there's enough proof, there's enough to talk about that you're credible. But over time, once you've identified the theme, you're going to enrich it, you're going to add experiences, and proof points, and develop, you know, your brand, to make those themes even stronger. And that's kind of an interesting point in itself, which is once you have these things which relate to the business, they can actually reflect back on the business and help you see where to focus, kind of a useful aspect of things.

Marissa: Are you embodying these themes? Are you keeping your promise?

Eric: Right. You know, because again, a good a well-crafted story, a well-crafted brand will explore its themes in a fresh and engaging way.

Marissa: So, other thing that's like, you know, as we said at the top, it's not something you're going to write about on your website necessarily, but it's always fodder for content you can always go back. Okay, these are what these are the things I want to be talking about how can I incorporate this into what's going on right now for the brand or in the world? And like we were saying, brands trying to meet a moment with integrity, like, you can go to your themes, your drivers and say like; How can I approach this in a way that fits with how I talk about things? And what's important?

[30:25 – 32:33]

Eric: Totally. Is this part of my story, really? Or how is this a part of my story? How do I frame this? Those are kinds of things that seems help you to do. And like you mentioned, I think at the top of our conversation, these are labels that your audience doesn't necessarily know. What we use them for is really to organize the value propositions that come out of the brand, the value propositions, the things that make the brand valuable, interesting, relevant, that people want to choose you for, and we organize them by the themes. It's not necessarily a one-to-one correspondence, there might be multiple value propositions that organize under each theme. But it's a great way to keep that organized. And so our messaging decks are usually organized by theme at some level.

Marissa: And you begin to see how these, this early work is really a foundation for everything that comes after. So that's core and drivers. Very important foundational. You can hit us up on Instagram if you want to ask questions about your brand or engages in that conversation, disagree with us, whatever you want to do. Thank you for listening. If you're finding this useful, please rate and review us on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts and share with all your marketing junkies and solopreneur friends. We really appreciate your support. And check out brandfrontlines.com to see the brand we'll and some exercises to help you spark your own successful brand building. Next week, we're moving out to the next ring of the brand. We'll put the first of the three P's, positioning.

Eric: Awesome.

Marissa: Well, that's wildly important. You don't want to miss that discussion.

Eric: And in the meantime, if you have a good suggestion for a sci-fi rom-com for us, please let us know.

Marissa: See you next time on the brand front lines.

Eric: Bye.

In this episode we present our blueprint for a well-made brand- the Brand Wheel.

We also talk to Jennifer Neeley, a highly-regarded digital strategist and UCSD instructor in influence marketing.

CHECK OUT THE BRAND WHEEL HERE

-Eric talks about his controversial branding work for the city of Dearborn.

-9:00 the invention of the Brand Wheel

-9:46 Why the brand pyramid doesn’t really work for us.

-12:00 How the Brand Wheel supports a brand story.

-14:00 The center of the wheel is more fixed, the outer rings are tools that change constantly.

-16:00 interview with Jennifer Neeley:

The Fyre Festival catastrophe.

social networks are designed to reinforce your own thought bubble. “It’s the exact opposite of critical thinking.”

-Goals vs. objectives

-Awareness campaigns don’t get budgeted

-We don’t necessarily annual budgets like we used to, there’s more flexibility

-Are your metrics helping you?

-How we analyze metrics can change their meaning for us.

-Read the earnings reports

-Generational shifts in social media and why we need to understand them to connect.

33:00 Center- Brand Core

38:36 First Ring- The Three P’s: Positioning, Promise, and Personality

45:19 Second Ring- The Visual System, Naming, Tagline, Descriptor, Messaging, Back Story

48: Third Ring- Verbal Guidelines & Visual Guidelines

53:06 Fourth Ring- Touchpoints: experiences and communications

54:30 Who creates a brand? Whoever has the most skin in the game.

RESOURCES:

Positioning the Battle for your Mind, by Al Ries & Jack Trout

Sign up for our new course: Vision, Mission, Go! 

VISION: Your biggest, boldest goal expressed in as few words as possible.

A vision is vital to the forward movement of a company. It is the beacon on the hill. The mission is the path to get to that beacon.

Vision is not differentiating but it must be big and bold and visionary. It is almost impossible to create a vision that is too big. Some you may never fulfill, you’ll always be reaching for them. The vision is also basically the brand story plot line.

The minimum bold vision should push the business at least a few years. Once you get to that strategic achievement, you need to re-vision.

EXERCISES FOR CREATING A VISION:

*LEGACY EXERCISE: Imagine in the future, you open the New York Times or Wall Street Journal to read a huge profile of your organization. It has closed because it accomplished every goal it set out to achieve and the vision is totally fulfilled. 

*BLUE SKY EXERCISE: Imagine that you are an entry in Wikipedia and you are totally worthy of it. 

*FUTURE HEADLINE EXERCISE: Five years from now, the best possible outcome. 

*FILL-IN-THE-BLANK EXERCISE: We see a world in which _________ happens and enables __________ to happen. And how do we help to create a world in which this can happen?

We do these early in a work session, to set the tone and they get everyone away from thinking about the literal Vision Statement.

Crafting the vision is not a committee process, it is the work of the leader. 

There is also a PURPOSE STATEMENT which might not be the vision of the company, but the underlying reason for starting the enterprise.

EXAMPLE:
Applied Storytelling Vision Statement: To transform markets through the power of storytelling. 

Purpose Statement: To eliminate barriers to understanding and connection. 


MISSION: The path to the vision

The mission states your customer and how you deliver value. 

You may have many kinds of customers and you should describe them by the largest common denominator. 

EXAMPLE:
Applied Storytelling Mission Statement: To enable organizations to achieve key business and market objectives by articulating and activating their brands.

We have looked at the V+M for the top 500 companies and most didn’t have both and the ones that did have them did not have good ones.

Have good brand hygiene!

EXERCISES:
FILL-IN-THE-BLANK EXERCISE: Who do you sell to? What do you sell them?

GETTING TO THE VISION EXERCISE: How do we achieve that bold vision?

FIRST DOLLAR EXERCISE: Where is the first dollar you make coming from? Is that where you want your money to comes from?

The mission needs to be clear and true, but not necessarily bold and inspiring. It does not need to be a differentiating statement. The mission and vision need to fit together and makes sense as a branded pair. 

The mission statement is basically an internal tool to make sure you are in stride with your strategic goals.

RESOURCES: 

Jack Welch, Winning

Watch: TED Talk: How Great Leaders Inspire Action, Simon Sinek

Simon Sinek Start With Why