Podcast Summary
The importance of expressing doubts and questioning technology's impact: Founder of Apture, Tristan Harris, shares how the Doubt Club inspired him to publicly challenge the social media industry and create the Center for Humane Technology, emphasizing the need for open dialogue about technology's impact on society.
Expressing doubts and questioning the impact of technology on society is essential for creating positive change. The founder of Apture, Tristan Harris, shares his experience of starting a company with a noble mission but recognizing the need for a safe space to express doubts. He talks about the inspiration he drew from the Doubt Club, which provided a platform for startup founders to openly discuss their concerns. Later, Harris, along with his co-founders, launched the Center for Humane Technology to publicly challenge the social media industry and address the implications of technology on society. The experience of hearing Daniel Schmachtenberger on the Future Thinkers podcast was a pivotal moment for Harris, reinforcing the importance of questioning the narratives we tell ourselves about technology and its role in the world.
Perverse incentives in economic systems lead to negative outcomes: Understanding the interconnected nature of societal costs and corporate profits reveals the need for a new paradigm prioritizing people and planet over profit.
Our current economic systems create perverse incentives that lead to negative outcomes for the environment, health, technology, and more. These issues are not separate, but rather part of interconnected "generator functions of existential risk." Companies profit privately while societal costs are externalized. For example, social media platforms generate revenue by extracting attention, but the societal costs of broken relationships, polarization, and mental health issues do not appear on their balance sheets. This realization can be disenchanting, as it highlights the challenges of addressing these issues, but also clarifying and empowering, as it reveals the root causes. The Center for Human Technology responded to this insight by creating the Ledger of Harms project, which aims to accumulate the unaccounted costs of technology on society's balance sheet. Ultimately, understanding this system helps us see the interconnected nature of the challenges we face and the need for a new paradigm that prioritizes the well-being of people and the planet over profit.
Abstracting, extracting, and commodifying complex systems: Reducing complex systems to a single metric or number can lead to unintended consequences, such as depletion and harm to individuals and society. Instead, recognizing the infinite potential and interconnectedness of complex systems can help us make more thoughtful decisions and create sustainable solutions.
We often undervalue complex systems by reducing them to a single metric or number, leading to unintended consequences. This was discussed in relation to a podcast episode about the value of a tree, which was abstracted, extracted, and commodified, resulting in depletion and pollution. Similarly, in the context of technology, our attention is abstracted, extracted, and commodified, leading to depletion and potential harm to individuals and society as a whole. The challenge is to shift our perspective and recognize the infinite potential and interconnectedness of complex systems, including ourselves and the natural world. This perspective can help us make more thoughtful decisions and create sustainable solutions for the long term.
The commodification of attention on social media: Social media companies profit from our attention, leading to a system that incentivizes negative content and harms individuals' well-being and societal norms. We need to address the root causes and create solutions that align with human values.
The way we consume content online, particularly on social media, is being abstracted and commodified into predictable units of attention, leading to both depletion and pollution of individuals' well-being and societal norms. Social media companies profit from our attention, selling it to advertisers at a predictable rate, creating a system that incentivizes highly engaging, often negative content. This realization can be terrifying, but also clarifying. However, understanding the issue is not enough; we need to address the root causes. It was during this period of awakening that the idea for the Center for Humane Technology (CST) began to take shape. I remember feeling torn between recognizing the problem and not knowing how to effectively address it. I continued to work on my product, believing that I could make a bigger impact than just criticizing from the sidelines. However, it became clear that a broader conversation was needed, leading us to create the CST podcast and explore the interconnected systems at play. Ultimately, it became clear that if we care about technology and its impact on society, we must be aware of these underlying systems and work towards creating solutions that align with human values.
The Narrow Focus on Tech Startups Overshadows Other Important Pursuits: The drive to start tech companies as the only path to success can limit our ability to address complex issues like technology, climate change, and inequality. Embracing a more holistic approach and considering various pursuits can lead to a more effective impact.
Our current paradigm, shaped by institutions like Stanford, pushes individuals towards starting tech companies as the only path to success, often overshadowing other important pursuits like nonprofits or personal interests. However, when addressing complex issues like technology, climate change, and inequality, this narrow focus can leave us feeling cynical and uncertain about how to make a difference. Tristan Harris, the founder of the Center for Humane Technology, faced this tension as he worked on tech reform while grappling with the realization that even solving specific tech issues wouldn't address the larger, interconnected crises. This emotional and intellectual struggle highlights the need for a broader perspective and a more holistic approach to addressing these pressing issues.
Understanding generator functions of world's problems: Recognizing systemic issues and working towards fundamental solutions can empower and build community despite feeling isolating.
Understanding the underlying mechanisms or "generator functions" of the world's problems can help us feel more agency and tackle issues at their root. This perspective, which was discussed between Tristan Harris and Daniel Schmachtenberger, can be isolating as it challenges common ways of viewing the world. However, recognizing that many people share this understanding can help build community and provide a sense of validation. By acknowledging the existence of systemic issues like growth imperative tied to abstraction, extraction, depletion, and pollution, we can work towards solutions that fundamentally change the way these systems operate. This shift in perspective can be empowering and help bridge the feeling of alienation or isolation that comes with gaining a deeper understanding of complex global issues.
Technology and mental health: A complex ecosystem: Addressing technology issues and mental health requires recognizing our limited knowledge and collective action as part of a larger ecosystem of change
Technology issues and mental health are interconnected, and addressing them requires acknowledging and addressing the fundamental systems that underlie both. The speaker, inspired by systems theorist Donella Meadows, emphasizes the importance of recognizing our limited knowledge and the need for collective action to push in the same direction. Changing complex systems is a continual process, and there is no easy solution or master plan. Through this podcast, the Center for Human Technology invites listeners to join them on this journey of understanding and tackling the interconnected issues of technology and mental health as part of a larger ecosystem of change.
Acknowledging doubts can lead to new insights and perspectives: Expressing doubts as a leader or expert can lead to new ideas and solutions, despite the uncertainty, and fosters open communication and learning within teams and organizations.
Expressing doubts and uncertainties, even as a leader or expert, can be valuable and lead to new insights and perspectives. Founders, guests on podcasts, or anyone in a position of authority may not always share their doubts with their teams or investors, but acknowledging and discussing doubts openly can serve everyone. The world is constantly changing, and it's impossible to predict everything that will happen. It's important to remember that expressing doubts doesn't equate to a lack of knowledge or certainty. In fact, embracing doubt can lead to new ideas and solutions. Eiza, for instance, works on the Earth Species Project, which aims to decode the languages of nonhuman species using machine learning. This project is inspired by Donella Meadows' call for a paradigm shift in our relationship to the planet. Eiza admits that she doesn't know if the project will succeed, but the uncertainty and the potential for change are what make the endeavor worthwhile. It's a delicate dance to express doubts responsibly, but it's a necessary conversation to have. By sharing our doubts, we can learn from each other and navigate the uncertainty together.
Transformative moments driving sustainability and environmental awareness: Embrace doubt, form a 'doubt club', and advocate for humane technology to navigate complexities and make informed decisions for sustainability and environmental awareness
Transformative moments in history, such as the distribution of images from space or the moon landing, have galvanized shifts towards sustainability and environmental awareness. These moments challenged humanity's self-image and led to the creation of organizations like the EPA and NOAA, as well as the passage of significant environmental legislation. Quantum physicist Richard Feynman emphasized the importance of embracing doubt and uncertainty in scientific progress. To strengthen this capacity, Feynman suggested forming a "doubt club" with trusted peers. While we may not have all the answers, we can recommend resources and ask good questions to help make informed decisions. Tristan Harris, a magician turned persuasive technology expert, and his colleagues at the Center for Humane Technology advocate for humane technology that respects human attention and well-being. By acknowledging our limitations and working together, we can navigate the complexities of our world and make a positive impact.
Learn to build technology that prioritizes well-being: The Center For Humane Technology offers a free course for product teams to equip them with the knowledge to create technology that prioritizes humanity's needs and addresses pressing challenges.
Technology, particularly in the realm of existential risk, requires a new kind of problem-solving mindset. To help prepare for this, the Center For Humane Technology is launching a free course called Foundations of Humane Technology. This course aims to equip product teams with the knowledge to build technology that prioritizes well-being and contributes to addressing humanity's most pressing challenges. By signing up for updates at humanetech.com, individuals can join this important initiative. The Center For Humane Technology, a nonprofit organization, produces the podcast "Your Undivided Attention" to catalyze a humane future. The podcast is supported by various generous lead supporters, including the Omidyar Network, Craig Newmark Philanthropies, and the Evolve Foundation. So, in essence, this discussion underscores the need for a shift in perspective when it comes to technology development, and the new course offers a practical way to begin this transformation.
