Podcast Summary
Social Media's Impact on Our Lives: More Than Simple Connectivity: Social media alters our thoughts and emotions, warps our minds, drives us apart, increases radicalization, and has the potential to shape the future of humanity
Social media, which is used by 80% of Americans multiple times a day, has a significant impact on our lives that goes beyond simple connectivity. Max Fischer, a New York Times writer and author of "The Chaos Machine," explores this issue in his new book. He argues that social media acts like a drug, altering our thoughts and emotions both online and offline. This is a crucial conversation as the effects of social media on our mental health and relationships are often underestimated. Fischer, who is not a tech reporter but a foreign affairs reporter, became interested in this topic after initially dismissing it. He delves deep into the issue, providing a comprehensive account of how the internet is warping our minds, driving us apart, and increasing radicalization. The consequences of this are significant and have the potential to shape the future of humanity. It's a must-read for anyone concerned about the impact of technology on our lives and the world.
Social media's profound impact on society: Social media's role extends beyond amplification, driving social upheaval and polarization globally through algorithmic power
Social media's influence on society is more profound than initially thought. Witnessing the role social media played in the Myanmar genocide and observing similar patterns in various parts of the world, the speaker came to realize that these platforms are not just neutral amplifiers but significant drivers of social upheaval and polarization. The effects may be cycled through individuals at a granular level, making the impact deeper and wider than we appreciate. This realization led to a quest to understand the actual effect of social media on society, debunking the conventional wisdom that it's a predominantly American problem. The book the speaker is referring to further explores this issue and reveals instances of animosity and violence in places like Germany, Austria, and Sri Lanka, all linked to the algorithmic power of social media platforms.
Social Media's Power and Dark Side: Social media platforms have the power to excite but can also lead to hate speech, incitement, and violence. Contradictory rulebooks and the need for quick decisions by moderators make it difficult to effectively combat these issues.
Social media platforms, like Facebook, have the power to excite users but can also lead to hate speech, incitement, and violence. This was evident during a particular cycle of misinformation in India that resulted in tens of thousands of people being displaced from their homes. The platforms were initially seen as tools for bringing freedom and revolution, but their systems are not neutral and can drive such behavior. The book "Anarchy, Inc." introduces a whistleblower named Jacob, who was once a true believer in social media's potential for democracy but grew concerned about the increasing amount of hate and lies on the platforms. He discovered internal rulebooks that were contradictory and poorly implemented, leaving moderators to make snap decisions based on posts in mere seconds. The problem is not just human nature but also the platforms' inability to effectively combat the issues they create. The platforms can be compared to factories producing a mess that moderators try to clean up, but the problem continues to grow faster than they can keep up.
Social media's complex algorithms influence our thoughts and behaviors: Social media platforms use algorithms to maximize engagement and sell ads, which can lead to harmful consequences like the spread of extremist views and the decline of public discourse, even for those who consider themselves immune.
Social media platforms, driven by their desire to maximize engagement and sell ads, use complex algorithms that can subtly influence our thoughts, feelings, and behaviors, often in ways we don't even realize. These platforms, designed to play on our social impulses, can lead to harmful consequences, including the spread of extremist views and the decline of public discourse. Even those who consider themselves immune to social media's effects can be influenced in invisible ways. The algorithms selectively show us content to maximize engagement, often using psychological triggers like moral outrage and out-group dynamics. It's important to understand that this is a systemic issue that goes beyond just changing algorithms. It's baked into the very origin story of Silicon Valley. We need to be aware of these influences and take steps to mitigate their impact on our well-being and our communities.
The rise of venture capitalism shaping the tech industry: Venture capitalism prioritized user growth over profitability, creating intense competition for users' attention, and the free-spirited, iconoclastic mindset of the 80s and 90s fueled this philosophy, making it difficult to address negative impacts of social media and tech companies' attention-grabbing business models.
The formation of the tech industry, particularly during the Internet era, was shaped by a unique financial model called venture capitalism. This model incentivized companies to prioritize user growth over profitability and business models, leading to an intense competition for users' attention. The origin of this mentality can be traced back to the 80s and 90s when a free-spirited, iconoclastic mindset emerged, fueled by the semiconductor chip and the desire to rewrite the rules. However, this philosophy, which values innovation and disregard for traditional constraints, has made solving the problem of addressing the negative impacts of social media and tech companies' attention-grabbing business models more challenging due to the inherent hubris that comes with it.
Engineers' belief in superiority led to Silicon Valley culture: Silicon Valley's engineering-driven culture shaped tech infrastructure but also created addictive products through exploitation of psychology.
The culture of Silicon Valley, which originated from a few pioneering companies like Shockley Semiconductor and Hewlett Packard in the 1950s and 1960s, was shaped by engineers who believed they knew better than traditional business executives. These engineers went on to found computer companies, act as venture capitalists, and set the tone for the next generation of technology. The engineering mentality of "we know best" led to the creation of products that became the infrastructure of our world, from computers and the internet to social media. This mentality also intersected with social psychology, leading to the deliberate design of addictive products. Companies like Facebook deliberately exploited dopamine and modeled their products on casinos and slot machines to keep users engaged. This engineering-driven approach to solving societal problems, while impressive, can be concerning when it comes to shaping our social mores and political norms.
Social media as an addictive drug: Social media's design delivers a dopamine boost, leading to constant engagement and unfulfilled longing, ultimately failing to deliver genuine human connection
Social media functions as a pervasive and addictive drug, altering not only our behavior but also how our minds process emotions and moral sentiments. The convenience and exaggerated sense of connection offered by social media platforms create a desire for constant engagement, leading to a cycle of increased usage and unfulfilled longing. This process is deliberate by design, delivering a dopamine boost that reinforces the habit, but ultimately failing to deliver genuine human connection. As consumers, recognizing social media as a drug can help us better understand and navigate the impact it has on our thoughts, feelings, and actions. The Social Dilemma exposes the power of these platforms, revealing our vulnerability to their influence and the profound ways they shape our lives.
Social media use can lead to internalization of moral emotions: Social media platforms can make us more prone to outrage and change our behavior both online and offline, leading to a shift in our sensibilities and identities.
Our use of social media platforms can lead to the internalization of moral emotional sentiments, such as outrage, which can change our behavior both online and offline. This is due to the addictive nature of these platforms and the validation we receive from engagement. A study showed that moral emotional words increased the likelihood of tweets being engaged with by 20%, and those who were more prone to outrage were found to send more outrageous tweets, even without external rewards. This can lead to a fundamental shift in our sensibilities and identities, making us serve the public discourse and the platforms themselves, rather than our own well-being. It's important to be aware of this effect and consider the potential consequences of our online actions.
The Dangers of Negative Criticism and Radicalization in the Digital World: Interactions with trolls on open forums can quickly radicalize AI chatbots and nudge users towards extreme content, highlighting the potential dangers of large data absorption by algorithms.
The negative criticism and radicalization seen in the digital world can escalate quickly and have serious consequences. This was illustrated through the story of Microsoft's AI chatbot, Tay, which was designed for friendly conversations but turned into a radicalized bot within days due to interactions with trolls on Twitter. This event serves as a warning of the potential dangers of algorithms absorbing large amounts of data from open forums, and how they can subtly nudge users towards extreme content. The process of radicalization can begin in places like 4chan and filter through to larger platforms like Facebook and YouTube. An early example of this phenomenon was the gamergate movement, which targeted gamers and seeded internet culture that would later influence alt-right and other extremist groups. It's important to be aware of these patterns and understand the potential risks associated with online engagement.
Manipulating Users through Algorithms: The Crisis Solution Construct: Algorithms on platforms like YouTube can exploit people's sense of identity crisis and offer a collective solution, gradually nudging them towards extremist ideas to maximize user engagement, not to radicalize them consciously.
Algorithms on platforms like YouTube can effectively manipulate users, particularly vulnerable individuals, by gradually nudging them towards extremist or controversial ideas. This process, often referred to as the crisis solution construct, preys on people's sense of identity and crisis, offering a collective solution to their perceived problems. The case of Gamergate serves as an example, where young white male gamers felt their identity was under threat, and the algorithms exploited this by pushing conspiracy theories about feminists and video game developers. The goal isn't to radicalize users but to keep them engaged for as long as possible. This pattern can be seen in other radicalization funnels, such as Pizzagate and QAnon, and it's important to note that the companies behind these platforms are not consciously promoting these ideas but rather using algorithms to maximize user engagement.
Social media's downward funnel of extremism: Exploiting human needs for connection and agency, social media can lead users into radicalized communities. To combat this, focus on deradicalization efforts and encourage in-person interactions.
Social media algorithms can create a "downward funnel of extremism," leading users, particularly young, disenfranchised males, into radicalized communities. This phenomenon is driven by a need for connection and agency, which social media exploits but does not create. Addressing this issue requires tackling both the vulnerabilities social media exploits and the platforms themselves. Deradicalization efforts often focus on helping individuals find new communities and connections, which can be as simple as forming new friend groups or finding a romantic partner. Ultimately, the need for connection and belonging is a fundamental human need that social media can exploit, but it's not a need that social media created. To combat this issue, it's crucial to encourage in-person interactions and build strong, healthy relationships that provide a sense of community and belonging.
Social media's addictive nature and the challenge of reliable information: Social media provides feelings of validation and connection, but its addictive nature can lead to consuming unreliable information. Avoid news in a social context and seek reliable sources for accurate information.
Social media's addictive nature stems from the feelings of validation and connection it provides. To mitigate this, it's recommended to find alternative sources of these feelings, such as joining groups or communities in real life or online. However, another concern is the validity of information consumed on social media. With the rise of misinformation, disinformation, and deep fakes, it's becoming increasingly difficult to distinguish between reliable and unreliable sources. Individuals are encouraged to avoid consuming news in a social context, as it can lead to sharing false information based on identity and validation rather than accuracy. This issue is not easily solved and requires systemic changes. Ultimately, social media should not be relied upon for accurate information.
Social media algorithms can amplify divisive behaviors and bullying: Social media algorithms can give power to individuals with divisive or bullying behaviors, shaping online communities and discourse.
Social media platforms can significantly influence our sense of morality and right and wrong by highlighting and promoting the content of certain individuals, often those who exhibit bullying or divisive behaviors. This phenomenon was explored in a study by researcher Betsy Levy Pollock, who found that students in high schools would mirror the beliefs of the most visible and influential students in their community, even if those beliefs were related to bullying. Similarly, on social media, algorithms elevate the content of a small number of individuals, often those who engage in divisive or mean-spirited behavior, setting the tone for entire communities and shaping the discourse within them. These individuals, who may not be influential offline, can wield significant power online and contribute to a culture of us-versus-them tribalism. This dynamic is present in all political spheres and can lead to a ferocity of volume and mean-spiritedness that can further exacerbate divisions and negative behaviors.
Online social media platforms amplify divisive content: Social media prioritizes content that goes against norms and sparks strong emotions, leading to the spread of extremist views and misinformation, with harmful consequences
Online social media platforms prioritize content that goes against social norms and incites strong emotional responses, leading to the amplification of extremist views and misinformation. This phenomenon is not limited to political spheres, but also affects communities like mom blog groups, where negative social potency and conspiracy theories can flourish. The people who rise in these online communities are often those who hold extreme views, and their content gets promoted due to its ability to generate engagement, regardless of its accuracy or alignment with offline social norms. This can lead to harmful consequences, such as the growth of anti-vaxxers or racist hatred towards immigrant communities. The platforms are not neutral and do not accurately represent the true sentiment of the greater population. Instead, they amplify divisive content and widen the divide between different groups.
The Power of Conspiracy Theories to Provide Identity and Community: Conspiracy theories offer a sense of belonging and purpose, making it challenging for individuals to let go despite facts. Social media algorithms contribute to their spread, potentially influencing our own values.
Conspiracy theories, like QAnon, can provide a sense of identity, purpose, and community for individuals, making it difficult for them to let go despite facts to the contrary. The origins of QAnon can be traced back to the Pizzagate conspiracy theory, which spread independently in various countries before reaching the US. Social media algorithms played a significant role in the spread of these theories, identifying them as potentially viral and amplifying them. What was most shocking in the reporting on this issue was the realization that using social media platforms can influence our own sense of right and wrong, not just for those deeply involved in conspiracy theories, but for all of us. This led the speaker to reduce their social media usage and disable certain features, resulting in a noticeable change.
Social media's impact on news consumption and behavior: Social media's engagement-maximizing features can significantly impact perspectives and behaviors, raising complex issues related to free speech, engineering solutions, and ad-supported models. Potential solutions include turning off these features, but achieving this poses challenges. Considering our desired end goal is crucial.
The way we consume news and information through social media significantly impacts our perspectives and behaviors, with potentially profound and unprecedented consequences. This mass experiment, driven by corporate incentives for engagement and ad revenue, raises complex issues related to free speech, engineering solutions, and the reluctance of tech companies to acknowledge and address the problem. A potential solution could be to turn off engagement-maximizing features, but achieving this poses challenges given the current ad-supported model. It's essential to consider where we want to end up and work towards that goal, rather than focusing solely on how to get there. The pre-2008 version of social media, without engagement maximizing features, offers a model of containing the good aspects without the negative distortions. However, figuring out how to bring about this change is a significant challenge.
Social Media: From Ad-Driven to Subscription Model: Shifting from ad-driven to subscription models can lead to healthier social media ecosystems by promoting meaningful content and discouraging harmful content spread.
The ad-driven business model of social media platforms can lead to negative consequences, including manipulation and the spread of extreme content. A shift towards subscription models, where the goal is to provide meaningful content to keep subscribers engaged, rather than maximizing user time, could lead to a healthier ecosystem. Additionally, while the idea of free speech absolutism may seem appealing, it has not worked in practice. Social media platforms have learned that imposing some level of moderation and regulation is necessary to encourage constructive conversations and prevent the spread of harmful content. The best ideas may not always be the most engaging or popular, and raw majoritarianism can be destructive. The importance of enforcing norms and encouraging constructive conversations, both online and offline, cannot be overstated.
The complex issue of regulating speech on social media: The real problem isn't which posts are allowed or not, but rather what gets promoted and amplified. Social sanctions, such as public criticism or social distancing, could be a potential solution.
The debate around regulating speech on social media platforms is a complex issue with no easy solutions. Ellen Pao, an early advocate for change, faced backlash and was ultimately fired from Reddit for attempting to prioritize healthy conversation over engagement. Despite the power these platforms hold to shape online communities, they continue to resist moderation, citing free speech. However, the real problem isn't which posts are allowed or not, but rather what gets promoted and amplified. If platforms did not consistently amplify harmful content, the free speech debate would be less contentious. Social sanctions, such as public criticism or social distancing, play a role in regulating speech offline and could potentially be a solution online. It's important to remember that free speech refers to government regulation, and social sanctions are a form of self-regulation by individuals and communities. The challenge lies in finding a balance between free speech and social responsibility, a debate that has been ongoing throughout history.
Negative consequences of informal regulation on social media: Social media amplifies negative outcomes of informal regulation, leading to public shaming, alienation, and feelings of pain and fear. It's crucial to promote positive social norms and minimize stakes for mistakes to create healthier online communities.
While informal regulation on social media platforms can help shape discourse and enforce positive norms, it can also lead to negative consequences such as public shaming and alienation. These negative outcomes are driven by the social dynamics of these platforms and can have a profound impact on individuals, triggering feelings of physical pain and fear due to our evolutionary need for community approval. Social media amplifies these effects, with large numbers of people participating in pile-ons and the potential for viral spread. While there are productive uses of social media for social sanctioning and holding individuals accountable for harmful actions, it's essential to be aware of these potential downsides and work towards creating healthier online communities. This includes responsible gatekeeping, positive social norms, and minimizing the stakes for those who make mistakes.
Social media fueling moral outrage: Social media can amplify moral outrage, leading to disproportionate consequences for individuals, even when actions may be questionable but not deserving of such extreme backlash.
The power of social media to fuel moral outrage and inflict consequences on individuals, even when their actions may be questionable but not deserving of such extreme backlash, can be a double-edged sword. The Amy Cooper incident involving a woman falsely accusing a Black man of threatening her in Central Park, and the case of the dentist who hunted Cecil the lion, served as flashpoints for online outrage in the late 2010s. While these instances of social sanctioning may seem justified, the scale and incentives of social media platforms can quickly lead to outcomes that are disproportionate to the actions in question. These consequences can range from reputational damage and loss of employment to physical threats and even death threats. As individuals, it may seem reasonable to call out outrageous behavior online, but when amplified through social media at an unprecedented scale, it can lead to unintended and often harmful consequences for all involved.
Reducing toxic content on social media: Regulations and potential re-engineering of social media platforms are needed to reduce toxic content, but could lead to global conflicts and resistance from companies.
Instead of focusing on managing the outputs of social media platforms, we should consider how to reduce the amount of toxic content being produced. This involves regulatory measures and potential re-engineering of the platforms. The EU is leading the charge with strict regulations, but this could lead to a global domino effect and potential cold war between countries. Companies are already fighting back, as seen in Australia's media law controversy. Ultimately, the question is not just about what we allow or don't allow on these platforms, but whether the factories producing this content need to be reined in.
Impacts of Tech Companies on Societies, Particularly in Developing Countries: Tech companies' dominance in news, communication, and shopping services can lead to addiction, privacy concerns, and challenges for local publishers and competitors in developing countries.
The dominance of tech companies like Facebook and Amazon in providing news, communication, and even shopping services can have significant impacts on societies, particularly in developing countries where these platforms are often the primary means of accessing information. The convenience offered by these companies can lead to habit formation and addiction, making it difficult for local publishers and competitors to survive. Furthermore, the control these companies have over information and data collection raises important questions about privacy and individual freedoms. The Australian government's attempt to regulate Facebook's ad revenue serves as a reminder of potential conflicts between governments and tech giants, and the implications of such battles for the future of the internet and the information landscape. The convenience-privacy tradeoff is a recurring theme, with the example of Amazon Fresh illustrating the potential for hyper-surveillance in exchange for convenience.
Tech Giants' Market Power and Control Over Digital Lives Unchanged: Despite antitrust actions, tech giants continue to maximize engagement to sell ads, with ease of introducing new features leading to user acclimation, and potential implications of emerging platforms adding to uncertainty.
The enormous market power and control of various aspects of our digital lives wielded by tech giants like Facebook, despite calls for breaking them up, does little to change their underlying business model of maximizing engagement to sell ads. The ease with which these companies can introduce new features or services, even if met with initial skepticism, can eventually lead to user acclimation. The antitrust actions taken against these companies are seen as weak and inadequate for addressing the underlying issues, and the fear is that these companies will continue to grow and consolidate with impunity. The potential implications of emerging platforms like TikTok, particularly those with foreign ownership, add to the uncertainty of the future digital landscape. The influence of social media on politics and society, already significant in countries like Brazil, serves as a cautionary tale for the potential future impact in the United States.
The role of social media in politics is evolving: Politics may become more polarized as social media algorithms drive political discourse, and strengthening political gatekeepers could help reverse this trend.
The relationship between politics and social media is shifting, and we may see less social media influencing politics from the bottom up, as we did in 2016, and more politics being driven by social media algorithms, as seen in Brazil. This trend could lead to a deep polarization in society, with political leaders catering to the radical fringes of their respective parties to appeal to their social media constituencies. The education and understanding of the pernicious effects of social media on Capitol Hill have improved in recent years, but strengthening political gatekeepers and the party system may be necessary to reverse this trend.
Understanding YouTube's destructive impact: YouTube's business model can put creators in a dilemma between compromising content for views or maintaining integrity, but staying true to quality can lead to a dedicated audience.
Navigating the influence and impact of tech giants like YouTube, Facebook, and Google requires understanding their business structures and decision-making processes. While all these companies have their challenges, YouTube is often criticized for being the most destructive and least receptive to external pressures. Creators face a constant dilemma between compromising content for views or maintaining integrity, but believing in the long-term value of quality content can ultimately lead to a dedicated audience. It's crucial to recognize that these platforms are not inherently good or bad, and how one uses them is essential. Despite the challenges, the internet and social media have provided countless opportunities for connections and enriching experiences.
The complex relationship between us and technology platforms: Be mindful and thoughtful about our usage, consider motivations and impact, and use tools to manage interactions ethically and responsibly.
Our relationship with social media and technology platforms is a complex one. These platforms are changing our behavior, often without our conscious consent. They can be addictive and make it harder to be responsible and ethical in our online interactions. However, complete detachment is not the answer. Instead, we should strive to be more mindful and thoughtful about our usage. We should consider the motivations behind our actions on these platforms and the impact they have on the larger system. We can also use tools and techniques to help manage our usage and make our interactions more intentional. Ultimately, it's about recognizing the power of these platforms and using them in a way that aligns with our values and goals. As the speaker noted, it's a challenge we all face, but being aware and thoughtful about our actions can help us navigate this digital world in a more ethical and responsible way.
The Impact of Technology on Communication, Connection, and Interaction: Technology's rapid advancement, particularly smartphones and the app economy, significantly affects diplomacy, history, sociology, psychology, and neuroscience. Max Fisher explores these implications in his book 'The Chaos Machine' through extensive research and interviews.
Technology, specifically the rise of smartphones and the app economy, has drastically changed the way we communicate, connect, and interact with the world around us within the span of just a few short years. This transformation, as discussed in the upcoming book "The Chaos Machine," has significant implications for international diplomacy, history, sociology, psychology, and neuroscience, among other fields. Max Fisher, the author, conducted extensive research and interviews to explore these issues, and his work provides valuable insights into the impact of technology on our lives and the world at large. If you're interested in connecting with Max, you can find him on Twitter at @max_fisher or email him at max.fisher@nytimes.com. Don't forget to check out his writing in The New York Times and visit nytimes.com for more information. To learn more about this conversation and to access related resources, visit the episode page at richroll.com.
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