Podcast Summary

• Discussing Human Progress with Jordan Peterson and Dr. Steven Pinker: Despite common beliefs, the world has seen significant improvements in areas like forested lands and human well-being, as argued by Dr. Steven Pinker in his research and books.

  This was emphasized in the conversation between Jordan Peterson and Dr. Steven Pinker, a renowned psychologist and professor at Harvard University. Pinker discussed his research and books that argue for the improvement of the world, despite popular beliefs to the contrary. He highlighted surprising data on human progress, such as the increase in forested areas and the greening of large regions, which can be attributed to increased carbon dioxide levels. Pinker's work challenges the notion that the world has never been worse and has attracted controversy due to its counterintuitive nature. Overall, the conversation emphasized the importance of reason, science, and humanism in understanding and improving the world.

• Progress Amid Challenges: Declining Poverty, Rising Literacy, and Decreasing Crime: Progress is being made in reducing poverty, increasing literacy, and decreasing crime, but challenges like income inequality and environmental risks remain. Balancing economic growth and environmental protection is crucial for a better future.

  Despite the challenges of poverty, inequality, and environmental concerns, the world is making significant progress. The number of people living below the poverty line is declining, literacy rates are rising, and violent crime is decreasing. Economies in Africa and other regions are growing, and people have been lifted out of extreme poverty, improving their standard of living. However, it's important to remember that progress is not guaranteed, and there are still significant challenges to address, such as income inequality and the risk of catastrophic events. But the evidence of progress should not be dismissed as magical thinking, and it offers hope that progress and environmental protection are not mutually exclusive. Instead, we can strive to make the world a better place for all, addressing both economic growth and environmental concerns simultaneously.

• The misconception of sacrificing prosperity for the environment: Economic growth and environmental protection can coexist with the right policies and technology

  The belief that protecting the environment requires sacrificing prosperity and modernity is a misconception. With the right policies and technology, economic growth and environmental protection can coexist. The progress of human prosperity, as shown in the "most miraculous graph in the world," has been accelerating since around 1895, and the Marxist critique of capitalism seems to be less relevant in the face of this economic growth and the reduction of poverty. Inequality still exists but is a deeper problem than Marxists presume, and even in domains related to creativity, there is a tendency towards unequal distribution. Additionally, developed countries in the 20th century saw a surge in social spending, debunking the idea of unregulated, unconstrained market capitalism.

• Investing in Public Goods for a Better Quality of Life: Wealthy societies invest in public goods like education, recognizing the importance of addressing the needs of the dispossessed for social stability and a better quality of life for all.

  Every wealthy country has a social safety net, redistributing about 20-30% of their GDP. While hierarchies and inequality are inevitable, addressing the needs of the dispossessed is essential for social stability. Wealthy societies have recognized this, investing in public goods like education, leading to a better quality of life for the entire population. Contrasting this with countries where wealth is concentrated, it becomes clear that a broader definition of wealth, including factors like safety, culture, and access to opportunities, benefits individuals and society as a whole.

• The Complex Relationship Between Prosperity and Social Equality: Countries with lower inequality tend to have better social goods, but it's unclear which factor causes the other. Reducing inequality provides security and promotes social cohesion, and the world has been making progress in various areas despite ongoing debates.

  The relationship between prosperity and social equality is complex and debated among social scientists. While countries with lower inequality tend to have better social goods like education and lower crime, it's not clear which factor is causing the other. Additionally, reducing inequality serves as a safety net, providing security for individuals and promoting social cohesion. Despite the controversy surrounding his views, Dr. Steven Pinker, a renowned psychologist and professor at Harvard University, argues that the world has been making progress in various areas, including science, reason, and humanism. This perspective challenges the narrative of some intellectual factions who believe the world has never been worse. Overall, the discussion highlights the importance of reason, evidence, and open-mindedness in understanding complex social issues and the progress of humanity.

• Positive statistics indicating improvement: Despite common beliefs, the world is improving with positive stats on greening areas, forests, child mortality, poverty reduction, and declining crime, illiteracy, and child labor. Economic growth in Africa and potential poverty elimination by 2030 are promising signs.

  Despite common beliefs that the world is getting worse, there are numerous positive statistics indicating improvement. For instance, there's been an increase in greening areas, more forests, declining child mortality rates, poverty reduction, and declining rates of violent crime, illiteracy, and child labor. Additionally, economic growth in Africa, and the potential elimination of poverty by 2030, are promising signs. These improvements should not be mistaken for magical thinking or an automatic upward progression, but rather the result of conscious efforts to make the world a better place. It's important to acknowledge these achievements, even if they challenge deeply held pessimistic beliefs. Furthermore, contrary to some ideologies, economic growth and environmental care can coexist, as people become more affluent and concerned about the long-term consequences of their actions.

• Economic growth and environmental protection are compatible: Wealthier nations prioritize and afford cleaner energy as they become more prosperous, and intelligent policy and technology deployment are crucial to achieving both goals.

  Economic growth and environmental protection are not mutually exclusive. The facts show that wealthier nations have made significant strides in cleaning up their environments, and as people become more prosperous, they prioritize and can afford cleaner energy. Intelligent policy and technology deployment are crucial to achieving both goals without sacrificing modernity. The myth that progress happens on its own or that protecting the environment requires giving up prosperity is a fallacy. Human progress, as shown in the miraculous graph of human prosperity, has been accelerating exponentially since 1895, and while there are still challenges like inequality, they cannot be attributed solely to capitalism. Instead, there is a natural tendency towards unequal distribution in various domains of human endeavor.

• The role of social welfare in addressing economic inequality: Social welfare through a combination of market competition and social safety nets is effectively addressing poverty and inequality in civilized democracies, and is being adopted by developing countries as they become wealthier.

  The traditional Marxist view of economic inequality and the need for a revolutionary solution may no longer apply in today's world. With the rise of the middle class and increasing social spending in developed countries, the problem of poverty and inequality is being addressed through a combination of market competition and social safety nets. The speaker argues that hierarchies and inequality are inevitable, but that societies should attend to those who are dispossessed. The speaker suggests that this approach has been successful in civilized democracies for the last century and is being adopted by developing countries as they become wealthier. Social spending is seen as an investment in public goods and a way to educate and prepare the entire population for economic growth. The speaker also acknowledges that there may still be debates about the optimality of hierarchies and the role of government in redistribution, but overall, the trend towards social welfare is a positive one.

• Defining Wealth Beyond Finances: A society's wealth is best measured by its ability to provide for basic needs and create a thriving public culture, not just individual financial success.

  Wealth and prosperity are not just about individual financial success, but also about the well-being of the community as a whole. The speaker emphasizes the importance of a broad definition of wealth that includes factors like safety, public culture, and social safety nets. He contrasts this with the situation in countries where wealth is concentrated among a few, leading to issues like crime and resentment. The speaker also discusses the role of social safety nets as insurance and a compassionate response to the reality that even the wealthy can experience economic hardship. He argues that a society's wealth is best measured by its ability to provide for its citizens' basic needs and create a thriving public culture. The debate among social scientists about whether prosperity or inequality drives these social goods is complex, but the speaker suggests that both are interconnected. Ultimately, the speaker argues that a compassionate and inclusive approach to wealth and prosperity is essential for creating a healthy and thriving society.

• Promoting unity and common identity in a pluralistic society: Successful nation building requires fostering unity and common identity through multiculturalism, social contracts, and broader national identities, allowing people to maintain their unique identities while embedding them in a larger collective.

  Successful nation building requires instilling a sense of unity and common identity among its people. This can be achieved through various means, such as promoting a pluralistic society that values and respects different cultures, or forging a broader national identity that transcends ethnic and racial differences. The Canadian example, with its emphasis on multiculturalism and social contract, offers a compelling alternative to the blood-and-soil nationalism of the past. By allowing people to maintain their unique identities while also embedding them in a larger collective, we can foster cooperation and prevent the resurgence of divisive nationalist ideologies. The American experiment, rooted in the principles of the Declaration of Independence, provides another powerful example of conceptual nation building that has proven effective in bringing diverse groups together.

• Emphasizing shared principles and values for nation building: The Enlightenment's emphasis on human well-being, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as universal values can help shift focus from tribalism to a more abstract national identity.

  Successful nation building requires a shift from traditional tribalism based on blood and soil to a more abstract conception of national identity. This can be achieved by emphasizing shared principles and values, such as those derived from the Enlightenment. While the Enlightenment drew from pre-existing ideas, it was distinct in its emphasis on human well-being, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, which can be believed in regardless of theological commitments. The people who formulated the Declaration of Independence recognized the intrinsic value of human beings, which provided the underlying structure for the Enlightenment to emerge and be accepted universally. This concept of human worth and well-being is not uniquely Judeo-Christian, but rather a universal notion that transcends specific religious traditions.

• The Enlightenment recognized our common humanity as the foundation of universal human rights: The Enlightenment led to the recognition of our shared humanity, which in turn led to the concept of universal human rights and the belief that governments should protect these rights.

  The foundation of enlightenment and the concept of universal human rights did not originate from religious doctrines or scriptures, but rather from the recognition of our common humanity. This recognition emerged during the Enlightenment as a reaction to the internal strife and carnage caused by religious wars and the realization that all sentient and rational beings share the ability to suffer and flourish. The Old Testament and the concept of being made in the image of God provided the basis for intrinsic value, but it was during the Renaissance that the idea of each individual's divine worth fully manifested. The Enlightenment peeled away religious dogma and doctrine to reveal our shared humanity, leading to the notion of universal human rights and the idea that government exists to protect and uphold these rights. The tribalistic tendency to expel those who contaminate the body politic and the belief that criticizing authority is inherently evil are more closely related to tribalism than religion.

• The Western Enlightenment's Impact on Human History: The Enlightenment's deconstruction of religious hierarchies led to decreased warfare, shorter conflicts, and increased global consciousness, resulting in the formation of the UN and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

  The Western Enlightenment project, which emerged from the deconstruction of religious hierarchies and the realization of universal humanity, has had a profound impact on human history. While it has faced criticism for the negatives, such as religious sectarianism and destructive technology, the overall trend has been towards decreasing warfare, shorter conflicts, and increased global consciousness and universalism. This is evident in the formation of organizations like the United Nations and the adoption of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Personally, for the speaker, the increased public exposure and controversy have led to a deeper reflection on the importance of these ideas and the ongoing work to reduce unnecessary suffering and malevolence.

• Intellectual Dark Web: Challenging Dominant Orthodoxies: The Intellectual Dark Web is a group of independent thinkers who reject political correctness and social justice ideologies, communicate as equals, and have gained attention for challenging dominant campus orthodoxies, positively impacting their members despite controversy.

  The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW) is a group of independent thinkers who reject political correctness and social justice ideologies. Members, like the speaker, value their intellectual independence and are effective users of social media. They believe in communicating with their audience as intellectual equals and avoid insults and put-downs. The IDW gained attention for challenging the dominant orthodoxies on college campuses and has been a net positive for its members, despite controversy and backlash. The group's impact lies in its ability to engage in intellectual discourse without resorting to moral condemnation or name-calling.

• Sharing data and insights about human progress can improve mental health: Despite negative human motives and behaviors, sharing data and insights about human progress can offer a powerful message of hope and inspire positive change, especially for young people.

  Despite the fear and potential backlash, sharing data and insights about human progress can have a positive impact on people's mental health. The speaker, a historian and cognitive scientist, has experienced this firsthand, with some individuals expressing gratitude for his research that challenges their despair and hopelessness. His optimism, rooted in data and research, offers a contrast to naive optimism and provides a radical message that human beings have the capacity to improve their world. This message, especially for young people, can be a powerful force for good, despite the existence of negative human motives and behaviors. The speaker's personal journey to reconcile the complexities of human nature and progress reflects this belief.

• Triumphing over evil and sorrow: Human spirit and institutions like free speech, democracy, science, and empirical testing have the power to overcome challenges and improve economic development

  Despite the depths of human depravity and the challenges we've faced historically, such as the Cold War and ecological threats, the human spirit and our institutions, like free speech, democracy, science, and empirical testing, have the capacity to triumph over evil and sorrow. These hard-won norms and institutions have allowed us to overcome our inner demons and make significant improvements in areas like economic development, particularly in regions previously plagued by ideological wars and counterproductive economic policies. By acknowledging the depths of human nature while valuing these institutions, we can continue to eke out progress and optimistically look towards the future.

• Cold War challenges for the developing world and future hopes: During the Cold War, developing countries faced significant challenges due to government incompetence and external interference. Moving forward, there's a need to pushback against authoritarian populism and focus on humanism, cosmopolitanism, globalism, and democracy to tackle complex issues like climate change.

  During the Cold War, the developing world faced significant challenges due to government incompetence and interference from superpowers funding insurgency movements. This amplified problems and perpetuated a terrible state of affairs. Moving forward, I hope to see a pushback against authoritarian populism and a renewed focus on humanism, cosmopolitanism, globalism, and democracy. I believe that by acknowledging our shared humanity and working together, we can tackle complex issues like climate change. In my academic work, I've explored the concept of common knowledge and the role it plays in our social and emotional lives. I plan to write a book on the subject in the coming years. People have a hierarchy of values, and the deeper the value is embedded, the more stable it becomes. We tend to navigate social relationships by avoiding disrupting others' mental models too much, using minimal necessary force and playing on the periphery. Sexual relationships, in particular, are unique and can be threatening if not handled carefully.

• Explicit acknowledgement of shared knowledge can complicate relationships: Implicit knowledge can remain harmless, but once made explicit, it can pose ethical dilemmas and complicate relationships, similar to dual relationships in professional settings.

  The explicit acknowledgement of shared knowledge between two people can significantly alter the nature of their relationship, creating potential awkwardness, confusion, and even ethical dilemmas. Implicit motivations and hidden knowledge can remain harmless, but once made explicit, they can pose a threat and complicate the situation. This dynamic is reminiscent of the complexities of dual relationships in professional settings, where the aims and coordination games can become blurred. Engaging in a serious conversation about these topics, as well as the historical role of the Enlightenment in shaping culture and society, could lead to valuable insights and a more nuanced understanding of the complexities of human relationships and the world around us.

• Exploring the Power of Ideas with Jordan Peterson: Renowned psychologist Jordan Peterson discusses the importance of ideas, meaningful debates, and engaging with complex topics through his public lectures, books, and online programs.

  Jordan Peterson, a renowned clinical psychologist and professor of psychology at the University of Toronto, is an optimistic thinker who believes in the power of ideas and the importance of engaging in meaningful debates. He frequently gives public lectures and discussions, and you can find information about his upcoming events on his website. Peterson's books, such as "Maps of Meaning," "The Architecture of Belief," and "12 Rules for Life," delve deeper into the topics he covers in his podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, consider leaving a rating, review, or sharing it with a friend. Next week's podcast will feature a recording of Peterson's lecture in Calgary on July 27, 2018. Connect with Peterson on social media, and visit his website for more information about his tour dates and recommended books. Peterson's online writing programs, designed to help people understand themselves and develop a vision for the future, can be found at self-authoring.com.