Podcast Summary
Empower businesses with simplicity and imagination: Mercury simplifies financial workflows, Wise simplifies international money transfers, and thinking in terms of utopia can lead to societal progress
Simplicity and imagination are key to transforming business operations and society as a whole. Mercury, a financial services company, empowers businesses with simple, precise financial workflows, allowing them to focus and perform at their best. Wise, a financial technology company, simplifies international money transfers and currency exchange, removing the guesswork and hassle. In a similar vein, historian and journalist Rucker Bregman argues for the importance of thinking in terms of utopia, which can serve as a guiding North Star for decision-making and progress. His utopian vision includes concepts such as universal basic income, open borders, and a 15-hour workweek, which he believes will lead to a better society. By focusing on simplicity and imagination, we can improve our businesses and our world. Apply for Mercury at mercury.com, join Wise in simplifying international money transfers at wise.com, and let Ezra Klein know your ideas for climate change episodes at ezarklinshow@vox.com.
The pursuit of a perfect society may not lead to ultimate happiness: We should focus on addressing problems instead of seeking a utopian society, as our human condition is wired for dissatisfaction. Injustices like war, global apartheid, and poverty exist despite resources to eradicate them, and it's important to consider our current actions for future critique.
Despite living in a time of material abundance, many people are still not content. This is because, as history shows us, things can always be different, and the way we have structured our society and economy today is not inevitable. However, the pursuit of a utopian society may not lead to ultimate happiness, as the human condition is wired for dissatisfaction. Instead, the goal of striving for a better society should be to face and address the problems that arise, rather than seeking a perfect solution. The author argues that we live in a world with significant injustices, such as war, global apartheid, and poverty, despite having the resources to eradicate them. The historians of the future may look back on our time and criticize the ways we are currently living, and it is important to consider the "barbarian" things we are doing now. Ultimately, the pursuit of a utopian society should be an ongoing process of improvement, rather than a final destination.
Unlocking the future through utopian thinking: Utopian thinking is crucial for progress and creating a better society, grounded in the present and addressing daily injustices. Human nature is seen as capable and deserving, leading to a vision of freedom and autonomy.
Utopian thinking is essential for progress and creating a vision of a radically better society. Utopian visions are grounded in the present and address the injustices of today, starting with the problems we face in our daily lives. The idea of human nature plays a crucial role in shaping these utopian visions. Instead of viewing people as lazy or unmotivated, a more hopeful perspective sees human nature as capable and deserving of freedom and autonomy. By unlocking the future through utopian thinking, we can work towards creating a society where people have the freedom to decide what to make of their lives, and work and play become one. This perspective challenges us to move beyond cynicism and believe in the potential for political change.
Perspective on Human Nature and Societal Institutions: The speaker challenges the belief that human nature is inherently selfish, instead emphasizing our capacity for cooperation, creativity, and trustworthiness. He cites successful examples of trusting approaches in organizations and countries and advocates for a shift towards trusting people to make their own choices.
The perspective on human nature holds significant influence on the design and functioning of societal institutions. The speaker argues that human nature is not as inherently selfish as some conservatives or neoliberal technocrats believe, but rather, people are generally cooperative, creative, and trustworthy. He cites examples of organizations and countries, such as Birdsorch in the Netherlands and Scandinavian countries, that have adopted a more trusting approach and have seen positive results. Critics argue that this approach may not work in larger, more diverse countries, but the speaker counters that while groupishness and xenophobia are aspects of human nature, they do not outweigh our capacity for cooperation and trust. The speaker advocates for a shift in perspective towards trusting people to make their own choices, which can lead to more effective and happier outcomes.
Perception of UBI influenced by unpublished data and biased interpretations: UBI envisioned as a solution for basic needs, not job replacement, and encouraging society's progress in meeting them
Our perception of certain experiments and their results, such as those involving human behavior and social dynamics, may be influenced by unpublished data or biased interpretations. The case for Universal Basic Income (UBI) can be made in utopian terms, focusing on the freedom it provides to individuals to make their own choices and live a dignified life. UBI is not intended to replace working, but rather to ensure that basic needs are met, allowing people to search for jobs that fit them. The argument that automation will take all jobs and UBI is the only solution is not the strongest case for UBI. Instead, the vision of a society where everyone's basic needs are taken care of is a more encouraging and realistic goal. Capitalism's ability to create new jobs should also not be underestimated.
Bullshit Jobs: Four Times More in Private Sector: Economists found that private sector has four times more 'bullshit jobs' than public sector. Care jobs, like teaching and healthcare, are often more valued due to their direct impact on people's lives.
A significant portion of jobs in today's economy may be considered "bullshit jobs" with little to no value, particularly in the private sector. These jobs, often held by highly educated individuals, may appear impressive on paper but are perceived as useless by the people who hold them. Economists Robert Dur and Max Van Land have shown that there are four times as many bullshit jobs in the private sector as in the public sector. The value of a job to an individual seems to be linked to its direct impact on improving others' lives. Care jobs, such as teaching and healthcare, are often more valued because of their clear utility and direct impact on people's lives. However, as technology advances and automation increases, it is important to consider how we value and compensate care jobs to ensure they are not overlooked in favor of jobs that may appear more valuable but contribute less to society. In a utopian society, the size of government may increase to accommodate the importance and value of care jobs.
Technology, Efficiency, and the Public Sector: Advancements in technology and private sector efficiency can expand the public sector, improving healthcare and education. However, inefficient areas like healthcare can lead to better care. Future societies may prioritize human needs over market contributions, leading to policies like UBI and social democratism.
Technology's advancement and private sector efficiency can lead to a larger public sector, allowing for better healthcare and education. However, it's important to remember that inefficiency in certain areas, like healthcare, can lead to better, more meaningful care. In a future society, values and work may not be based on market contributions alone, but rather on deeper human needs and aspirations. A Universal Basic Income (UBI) could lead to workers having more bargaining power, resulting in wages reflecting social value. Technology, on the other hand, can rob workers of power, making it essential to implement social democratic policies, such as Medicare for all, proper public education, and a UBI, to ensure workers have a decent standard of living and power in their jobs.
A brief history of UBI and the debate over its impact on work ethic: Despite early consideration in welfare state plans, UBI's impact on work ethic remains debated. Empirical evidence from experiments shows minimal reductions in working hours and increases in productive activities, but ultimately, perspectives differ on human nature.
The idea of a Universal Basic Income (UBI) is not as revolutionary as some may think. The concept was considered in the plans for the British welfare state as early as the 1940s and 1950s, with the belief that it would give individuals the freedom to leave unsatisfying jobs or relationships. However, a common argument against UBI is that people will become lazy and stop working. This perspective has been challenged through empirical evidence from experiments, such as the negative income tax experiments in the US during the 1970s, which showed minimal reductions in working hours and an increase in people doing other productive activities. Ultimately, the debate over UBI is not solely about the evidence, but rather a reflection of differing views on human nature. Despite this, numerous studies have shown positive effects of UBI on health, education, and overall well-being. For instance, in Seattle's experiment, families receiving UBI experienced improvements in health, kids' performance in school, and a reduction in hospitalization rates. These findings suggest that UBI could potentially lead to a more equitable and healthier society.
Impact of UBI on work ethics and motivation: UBI may not discourage work ethic or motivation as most people prefer to work for reasons beyond financial needs.
Despite the significant investment in various social programs and experiments throughout history, there remains ongoing debate regarding the impact of Universal Basic Income (UBI) on work ethics and motivation. A notable example from the past involved a successful yet abandoned Canadian pilot program in the late 1970s. Despite concerns that UBI might discourage people from working, the evidence suggests that most people prefer to work for various reasons, including financial advancement, status, and meaning. Furthermore, the idea that UBI would lead to widespread laziness is a misconception. The 15-hour workweek concept, introduced in a famous essay, proposes a more balanced work-life approach, but it remains a topic of ongoing discussion and debate in the economic and policy spheres. Ultimately, the goal should be to create institutions that support and empower the majority of people who want to contribute meaningfully to society.
The Challenge of Finding Meaning in a World of Abundance: As technological advancements lead to fewer traditional jobs, societies must recognize and support the value of non-productive pursuits like art and creativity to maintain individual and community well-being.
John Maynard Keynes, in his 1930 essay "Economic Possibilities for Our Grandchildren," predicted we would become much wealthier in the future and would have shorter working hours due to technological advancements. However, the societal challenge of the future, as imagined by Keynes and other thinkers at the time, was not scarcity of resources or jobs, but rather, the problem of boredom and the search for meaning in a world with fewer traditional jobs. This idea is explored in a science fiction story by an unknown author, where in a future with fewer jobs, people find meaning in art and creativity. The challenge for modern societies is to recognize and support the value of such pursuits in a way that benefits both individuals and communities. The historical example of the Dutch artists' basic income, while well-intentioned, highlights the importance of striking a balance between encouraging productivity and managing the potential oversupply of artistic output.
Discussion on Keynes' prediction of 15-hour work week: Despite Keynes' prediction of a 15-hour work week, the trend towards work hours is complex and influenced by economic, political, cultural, and individual factors.
The discussion around Keynes' prediction of a 15-hour work week has been ongoing due to his being correct about income levels but incorrect about people's desire for shorter work weeks. While some countries have shorter working hours, others have seen an increase in average work hours, particularly among those with higher incomes. This trend is not solely due to political choices but also cultural and human nature factors, such as the desire for status, competition, and material possessions. The definition of work itself has evolved over time, and some argue for a society where more people have the freedom to do meaningful work, which might not even be called work in such a society. Ultimately, the debate around work hours is complex and multifaceted, involving economic, political, cultural, and individual factors.
Discovering the Benefits of a Shorter Work Week: Implementing a 15-hour work week can boost productivity and happiness, but requires a combination of policies and cultural shifts to make it a reality.
Reducing work hours, such as implementing a 15-hour work week, can lead to increased productivity and happiness for workers. This concept was first discovered by capitalists like Henry Ford in the 1920s, who found that workers were just as productive with fewer hours. However, operationalizing this idea involves a combination of policies, such as laws against overtime and unpaid labor, and cultural shifts that value leisure time. While some argue for a mandated 15-hour work week, others believe it's more effective to create a cultural and societal norm that values work-life balance. Additionally, the definition of work itself is becoming blurred, with activities like parenting taking up more time than ever before. Some argue that this time should be considered leisure, not work. Ultimately, the goal should be to create a society where people have the freedom to work less, not the mandate to do so.
Revaluing Care Work: Beyond Traditional Definitions of Work: The speaker advocates for recognizing the value of care work and redefining work to include it, challenging traditional distinctions between paid and unpaid labor, and suggesting a living wage for care workers as a step towards equality and societal growth.
Our traditional categories of work and home, meaningful and meaningless, paid and unpaid, are not as clear-cut as we might think. The speaker argues that care work, often considered unpaid and insignificant, is actually crucial for the functioning and growth of society. The speaker also criticizes the outdated definition of work as paid labor contributing to GDP, and suggests revaluing care work as a job deserving of a living wage. The speaker's utopia would prioritize valuing care work and recognizing its importance in keeping the human species thriving. The speaker also mentions the historical undervaluing of care work and the potential of Universal Basic Income as a step towards redressing this issue. The speaker's perspective challenges the conventional definitions and valuations of work and care, and invites us to consider a more holistic and inclusive approach.
Valuing caregiving and maintenance work: We should recognize the importance of caregiving and maintenance work, ensure fair compensation, and encourage individuals to use their skills for positive impact
We should value and reward those who contribute to society through caring and maintenance work as much as those who produce new things. Kasparov's observation that many talented individuals are wasted in unfulfilling jobs while crucial issues like climate change go unaddressed highlights the importance of rethinking what truly adds value to society. The gender wage gap is a real issue, and penalizing individuals for taking on caregiving responsibilities only perpetuates an unfair system. We should recognize the importance of maintenance work and the value it brings to society, and ensure that those who engage in it are compensated fairly. Additionally, we should encourage individuals to use their talents and skills in areas that make a positive impact on the world, rather than contributing to wealth destruction.
Borders and their impact on societal injustice: Borders contribute to income disparities and fuel misinformed anti-immigration sentiments. A world without borders is a utopian vision, but integration and openness can lead to shared strength.
Borders and the inequalities they create are a significant source of societal injustice. The speaker argues that borders contribute to a large extent to income disparities, which are largely determined by where one is born. Furthermore, many arguments against immigration are often misinformed or based on fear. Contrary to popular belief, higher walls and stricter immigration policies can even lead to more illegal immigration. The speaker expresses a utopian vision of a world without borders, but acknowledges the challenges in achieving this. He shares his concerns about the potential backlash against immigration and the rise of populist sentiments. However, he also highlights instances of successful integration and the potential for a nationalistic or patriotic case in favor of immigration. The speaker emphasizes the importance of openness and shared strength in the face of change and difference.
Societal issues and responses vary greatly between societies: While income inequality has increased in some countries, it's remained stable in others due to government intervention. Open borders and immigration policies can spark tension and far-right populist parties. Understanding societal differences is key to effective solutions.
While there may be similarities in societal issues across different countries, such as xenophobia and inequality, the responses and political choices made by each society can vary greatly. For instance, while income inequality has increased significantly in the US and the UK, it has remained relatively stable in the Netherlands due to government intervention. However, the idea of open borders is not as straightforward as it may seem, as there are significant differences between societies and the potential backlash against immigration can be substantial. In fact, there is a strong correlation between immigration and the rise of far-right populist parties. While some believe that more immigration is a form of justice and support policies like UBI, there can be tension between these beliefs and the desire to protect the welfare state from perceived outsiders. Ultimately, it's important to acknowledge and understand the differences between societies, rather than assuming that one-size-fits-all solutions will work everywhere.
Addressing second class citizenship instead of open borders: Recognizing and addressing second class citizenship is a step towards reducing injustices, while framing poverty as an expensive issue resonates with various political ideologies for a just society based on human dignity.
While the idea of open borders and equal access to resources like UBI and universal healthcare may be morally ideal, it's not practical in the current societal context. Instead, recognizing and addressing the issue of second class citizenship, where people are allowed to enter but not given full access to societal benefits, might be a step towards reducing injustices. The speaker argues that this is an improvement over third class citizenship, where people are not even allowed to enter. Additionally, the speaker emphasizes the importance of using language that resonates with different political ideologies to promote progressive ideals, such as framing poverty as an expensive issue that needs to be eradicated rather than a charitable cause. The ultimate goal should be to construct a just society based on human dignity, not just as an investment or a form of charity.
Reducing poverty: A moral imperative and a choice: Three influential books challenge perceptions of wealth, offer optimistic views of human nature, and highlight the role of government in reducing poverty
Reducing poverty is a moral imperative in a rich society, and it's a choice we make every day to let it persist. The argument for universal basic income as a potential solution to reduce healthcare costs is valid, but the underlying issue is the unjust nature of poverty itself. It's essential to recognize our responsibilities to both people in and out of our country. A more utopian perspective can help us envision a world where poverty doesn't exist, and we can strive towards that goal. Three books that have influenced Rucker Bergman's thinking include David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" and "Debt: The First 5000 Years," Rebecca Solnit's "A Paradise Built in Hell," and Mariana Matsutagao's "The Entrepreneurial State." Graeber's work challenges our perceptions of wealth and economy, Solnit offers a more optimistic view of human nature in the face of disasters, and Matsutagao highlights the crucial role of government in funding important innovations.
Envisioning a Utopian Society for Animals: Imagining a perfect world for animals can inspire us to take practical steps towards reducing their suffering in reality.
Expanding our compassion and imagining a utopian society where animal suffering is minimized is a valuable exercise. Although it can be challenging to envision a completely different society, it's worth considering the values and ideals we'd like to see in a perfect world. However, it's essential not to get too lost in the idea of utopia and neglect taking practical steps to make improvements in the present. So, feel free to share your utopian visions with [ezarklinshow@vox.com](mailto:ezarklinshow@vox.com). A big thank you to our team, including our engineer Cynthia Gill, producer Jeffrey Gill, and new researcher Roger Karma, at Josephox Media podcast production.
