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    The Ant-Viral Gut: Robynne Chutkan, MD On Optimizing Immunity & Preventing Disease From The Inside Out

    enOctober 31, 2022

    Podcast Summary

    • The connection between gut health and immune systemFactors like diet, lifestyle, medications, and stress impact gut bacteria balance, which can affect immune system functionality. Optimizing these factors can boost body's defenses and improve overall health.

      The health of our gut microbiome plays a significant role in our immune system functionality. The gut is home to most of our immune system, and the communication between our gut bacteria and our immune system is constant. If our gut bacteria are not in balance, our immune system may not be able to effectively trigger virus-fighting capabilities. Dr. Robin Shutkan, a gastroenterologist and author, explained this connection during her appearance on the Rich Roll podcast. She discussed how various factors, including diet, lifestyle, medications, and stress, can impact the gut microbiome and immune system. Overall, optimizing these factors can help boost our body's defenses and improve our overall health.

    • Exploring the Latest Research on the Microbiome and Its Role in the Immune SystemMaintaining a healthy gut microbiome is crucial for overall well-being, and new discoveries in the field are constantly emerging, highlighting its importance in the immune system.

      The microbiome, particularly its role in the immune system, has gained significant attention in recent years due to the scientific community's growing understanding of its importance. Dr. Robynne Chutkan, an integrative gastroenterologist, shared her experiences and insights from her new book, "The Bacteria Code," which delves into the antiviral gut and the immune system. In 2015, her second book, "The Microbiome Solution," was published, but the concept of the microbiome was still new to many. However, the pandemic has brought more awareness to the topic, making it more relevant than ever. Dr. Chutkan's latest book explores the latest research and discoveries in the field, highlighting the importance of maintaining a healthy gut microbiome for overall well-being. The science is constantly evolving, and new findings are emerging every day, making it an exciting and ever-evolving field. To learn more and explore the world of the microbiome, visit gobrewing.com and use the code RICHROLL for a 15% discount on your first purchase.

    • The immune system is primarily located in the gut and plays a crucial role in protecting us from harmful bacteria and viruses.The immune system, a complex system primarily located in the gut, protects us from harmful pathogens by developing over time and learning to remember and respond to specific threats, with the majority of the immune system residing in the gut.

      The immune system, a complex and dispersed system that makes up a significant portion of our body, is primarily located in the gut. The immune system, which includes both the innate and acquired systems, plays a crucial role in protecting us from harmful bacteria and viruses. The acquired immune system, which develops over time and learns to remember and respond to specific pathogens, is the basis for vaccines. The current climate of quickly disseminating health information has led to a surge in interest and accessibility of scientific research. However, it's essential to ensure the accuracy and reliability of the information being consumed. The concept of the citizen scientist, while valuable, also comes with the risk of misinformation and misguided advice. The goal is to provide accurate and reassuring information to help people better understand their bodies and the processes that keep them healthy. The relationship between gut health and the immune system is a crucial focus, as the majority of the immune system resides in the gut. Understanding this relationship can lead to improved overall health and wellness.

    • The gut houses 70% of the immune system and acts as a barrier, allowing communication between immune cells and gut microbes.Understanding the relationship between the gut and immune system can help maintain a healthy immune response and prevent immune-related conditions.

      The gut and the immune system are inextricably linked. The gut, which houses around 70% of the immune system, acts as a barrier that allows certain things to pass through while keeping others out. The immune cells are on the inside, and the trillions of gut microbes are on the outside, constantly communicating and guiding the immune response. When the gut bacteria are healthy, they help the immune system distinguish friends from foes and mount an effective response against external threats. However, when the immune system is dysregulated, it can lead to either an overactive response, resulting in autoimmune diseases or allergies, or an underperforming immune system, making it harder to combat infections. Understanding this intricate relationship between the gut and the immune system can provide valuable insights into maintaining a healthy immune response and preventing immune-related conditions.

    • Understanding the Role of Our Immune System and the Interplay Between Germ Theory and Terrain TheoryMaintain a balanced immune system by strengthening our host through healthy lifestyle choices and understanding the role of germs and our internal environment in immune response.

      Our immune system plays a crucial role in protecting us from both internal and external threats. On the internal side, it helps in cancer surveillance, identifying and eliminating abnormal cells. On the external side, it fights against viruses, bacteria, fungi, and other pathogens. The goal is to maintain a balanced, "Goldilocks" immune system - active enough to fight off infections but not so overactive that it causes harm. Both our lifestyle choices and external factors like viruses influence our immune response. The concept of germ theory and terrain theory highlights this interplay - germ theory focuses on external threats, while terrain theory emphasizes the importance of a healthy host. Both theories are essential, as they complement each other. Our actions, such as maintaining a healthy diet, exercising, and practicing good hygiene, can help strengthen our immune system and make us better hosts. In summary, understanding the role of our immune system and the interplay between germ theory and terrain theory can help us make informed choices for optimal health.

    • Gut health predicts COVID-19 outcomesA healthy gut microbiome, particularly high Fecalibacterium prausnitzii levels, can predict good COVID-19 outcomes with 92% accuracy, considering host factors like comorbidities.

      The health of our gut microbiome plays a significant role in determining our susceptibility to viral infections like COVID-19. The book discusses studies showing that a healthy microbiome, specifically high levels of Fecalibacterium prausnitzii, can predict good outcomes with an accuracy of 92%. This is even more accurate when considering other host factors like comorbidities. The interplay between germ theory and terrain theory, or the role of external factors (germs) versus internal factors (host health), is crucial in understanding the outcome of viral infections. The television reporting during the pandemic often focused on fear and terror, but the predictability of viral illness outcomes is largely determined by host factors, many of which can be mitigated. PPIs, or proton pump inhibitors, are one primary cause of dysbiosis, and recognizing this can help us take steps to prevent negative outcomes. The goal is not to assign blame but to understand these factors to enable risk mitigation and potentially more targeted approaches to pandemics.

    • Long-term use of PPIs may increase COVID-19 riskLong-term PPI use can double or quadruple COVID-19 risk due to reduced stomach acid production, allowing viral proteins to survive and bind to ACE 2 receptors in the GI tract.

      Long-term use of proton pump inhibitors (PPIs) for acid reflux or other conditions may increase the risk of contracting COVID-19. These drugs, which include Prilosec, Nexium, and others, work by reducing stomach acid production. While beneficial for some, they can lead to a hostile environment for viruses in the stomach, preventing the denaturing of viral proteins. This study found that individuals taking PPIs once a day had a twice as high risk, and those taking them twice a day had a 3-4 fold increased risk of testing positive for COVID-19. This is due to the high concentration of ACE 2 receptors in the GI tract, which bind SARS CoV 2, making the digestive system an entry point for the virus. Ensuring adequate stomach acid production is crucial for preventing infection. Overprescription of PPIs, particularly for older adults, is a concern, and unnecessary use should be avoided.

    • Long-term PPI use increases C. diff riskLong-term PPI use can weaken stomach defenses, increasing risk for C. diff and other illnesses. Consider diet and lifestyle changes before relying on PPIs.

      The long-term use of Proton Pump Inhibitors (PPIs) for acid reflux can increase the risk of contracting Clostridium difficile (C. diff) and other enteric illnesses. This is due to the fact that PPIs alter the stomach's pH, weakening the body's defense against pathogens. While some individuals have legitimate reasons for taking PPIs, many others may be able to reduce their dosage or even stop using them altogether by addressing the root cause of their acid reflux through dietary changes and lifestyle modifications. The marketing around PPIs often misleads people into believing they have an overproduction of stomach acid, when in reality, the issue is usually a relaxed valve between the esophagus and stomach. Understanding this and making simple lifestyle adjustments can help reduce the need for PPIs and the associated health risks.

    • NSAIDs harm gut and immune system, leading to 'leaky gut'NSAIDs can damage gut lining, increasing intestinal permeability and susceptibility to viruses and harmful substances, potentially causing inflammation and immune system dysfunction.

      Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs), which are commonly used for pain relief, can have harmful effects on the gut and immune system. NSAIDs can create tiny holes or erosions in the gut lining, leading to increased intestinal permeability, or "leaky gut." This can make individuals more susceptible to viruses and other harmful substances entering the bloodstream. These breaches in the gut lining can lead to various health issues, including inflammation and immune system dysfunction. The risks are not just for those experiencing symptoms, as some people may be asymptomatic yet still have these erosions. While NSAIDs can be beneficial for those with severe arthritis and chronic pain, it's essential to be aware of the potential risks and consider alternative methods for pain relief when possible. As always, it's crucial to consult with healthcare professionals for personalized advice and treatment options.

    • Medications and microbiome dysbiosisMedications, including hormonal therapy and cough syrup, can disrupt the balance of gut bacteria and intestinal permeability, leading to health issues. Understanding potential risks and benefits, personal medical history, and holistic effects is essential when making medication decisions.

      Certain mechanisms, such as intestinal permeability and imbalanced gut bacteria, can lead to health issues when they persist. These issues can allow harmful substances, like viruses, to enter the body and cause disease. Hormonal therapy, including birth control pills, can contribute to these problems by altering the balance of gut bacteria. It's important for individuals to understand the potential risks and benefits of medications and consider their personal medical history and risk factors when making decisions about their use. Additionally, it's essential to understand the holistic effects of medications on the body, including their impact on the microbiome. For example, cough syrup, which is not typically associated with microbiome dysbiosis, can have this effect. Therefore, it's crucial to consider these factors when considering pharmaceutical interventions.

    • Mucus: A Necessary Substance in Our BodiesMucus, primarily produced in the gut, plays crucial roles in gut health and defense. Suppressing mucus production can lead to negative consequences, while maintaining hydration and a healthy environment can improve its quality and strengthen defenses.

      Mucus, which is often perceived as a nuisance, plays a crucial role in our bodies. Contrary to popular belief, most mucus is produced in the gut, where it serves important functions such as lubricating the gut, protecting the intestinal lining, and helping to prevent the stomach from being damaged by acid. Mucus is described as a sticky matrix that traps and expels foreign substances, including pollen, irritants, and viruses. However, suppressing mucus production can have negative consequences, such as making it easier for viruses to penetrate the gut lining and potentially leading to infection. Historically, some medications used to suppress mocus production contained dangerous ingredients like heroin and morphine. Instead, focusing on hydration, avoiding smoking, and maintaining a healthy environment can help improve the quality of mucus and strengthen the body's defenses. Additionally, the thickness and quality of cervical mucus during pregnancy can indicate potential risks for preterm infection and aid in determining stages of ovulation and fertility. Overall, mucus is a complex and essential substance that warrants more appreciation and understanding.

    • Understanding the protective role of mucus and feverFocus on hydration, humidification, and a healthy diet for optimal mucus production. Fever is a natural defense mechanism that can slow down viral replication, and heat therapy, including fever, can be beneficial for various illnesses, including cancer.

      Our bodies produce mucus as a protective mechanism against diseases, but we've been conditioned to fear it due to the spread of diseases through droplets. To ensure your mucus is doing its job, focus on hydration, humidifying your environment, and maintaining a healthy diet. Fever is another important defense mechanism in our bodies, and while it's common to try and bring it down with medication, it can actually be therapeutic and help slow down viral replication. Understanding the protective role of fever and when it's appropriate to treat it can lead to better health outcomes. Additionally, heat therapy, which includes fever, has been used for centuries to treat various illnesses, and recent studies show that it can even be effective in treating cancer. So next time you're feeling under the weather, consider giving your body's natural defenses a chance before reaching for medication.

    • Temperature's Impact on Health: Fever and ColdFever can aid immune response, but high temperatures can disrupt systems. Cold exposure can strengthen immune system, but chronic exposure can lead to stress. Balance is key, consult professionals for guidance. Sauna use may have longevity benefits, but more research needed.

      Our bodies respond differently to various temperature extremes, and understanding these responses can help us make informed decisions about our health. Fever, for instance, can slow down viral replication and enhance the immune response, but at high temperatures, it can also disrupt other physiological systems. Similarly, acute exposure to cold can strengthen the immune system and reduce inflammation, but chronic exposure can lead to stress and negative health effects. It's essential to strike a balance and consult healthcare professionals for guidance. Additionally, research suggests that regular sauna use may have longevity benefits, but more studies are needed to confirm these claims. Overall, understanding the role of temperature in our bodies can help us make informed decisions about our health and wellbeing.

    • Maintaining a Healthy Immune System through Fiber-Rich Plant-Based FoodsEating a fiber-rich diet, particularly foods high in inulin, promotes a healthy immune system by increasing production of short chain fatty acids (SCFAs) which regulate immune response and prevent overblown responses to viruses.

      Focusing on increasing fiber intake through various plant-based foods, particularly those high in inulin, is essential for maintaining a healthy immune system. This is because the preferred food of bacteria that produce short chain fatty acids (SCFAs), such as butyrate and propionate, is the "stringy" or "hard" fiber found in plants like rolled oats, onions, garlic, and leeks. These SCFAs help regulate the immune system by preventing an overblown response and acting locally on the immune system, downregulating viral receptors in tissue. A study comparing infants from Burkina Faso, who consumed almost a 100% plant-based diet, to those from Florence, Italy, who ate a standard American diet, found that the Burkina Faso infants had more than double the levels of SCFAs, which is crucial for long-term health. While individual experiences may vary, population-based data shows that a fiber-rich diet is essential for a healthy microbiome.

    • Maintaining a Balanced Diet and Healthy Sleep are Key for Gut and Overall HealthA balanced diet with sufficient plant fiber, avoiding processed foods, alcohol, and artificial sweeteners, and getting enough sleep are crucial for gut and overall health. Carbohydrates are essential for gut health, and the sleep-gut connection is profound as serotonin and melatonin are produced in the gut by gut bacteria.

      Maintaining a balanced diet with sufficient plant fiber is crucial for overall health and gut health, while individual choices about consuming meat are less debated and more personal. Common sense practices like avoiding artificial sweeteners, sugar, fatty foods, alcohol, and processed foods can contribute to better health. The example of a patient named Alicia illustrates the importance of balance in the gut microbiome, as an overly restrictive diet can lead to an imbalance and potential overgrowth of fungal organisms. Carbohydrates, contrary to popular belief, are essential for gut health and providing bulk in the stool. Sleep is another essential element for overall health, as sleep deprivation can lead to a host of health issues, including a weakened immune system and increased risk for viral infections. The sleep-gut connection is profound, as serotonin, a feel-good hormone and melatonin, the sleep hormone, are primarily produced in the gut by gut bacteria. Therefore, maintaining a healthy gut through diet and sleep can significantly impact mental health and overall well-being.

    • Maximize vaccine effectiveness by getting enough sleep beforehandSleep deprivation within 48 hours before vaccination can decrease effectiveness by up to 30% and increase infection odds by 12%.

      Getting adequate sleep before getting vaccinated is crucial for maximizing their effectiveness. Sleep deprivation within 48 hours before vaccination can lead to a decrease in effectiveness by up to 30%, not just for COVID-19 vaccines but also for other types like hepatitis and flu shots. Moreover, sleep deprivation increases the odds of getting infected by a viral infection by 12%. These findings highlight the importance of prioritizing sleep and overall health to strengthen our immune system and reduce the risk of falling ill. Unfortunately, it's not just individuals who struggle with prioritizing sleep – hospitals often serve unhealthy food options and have unsustainable work schedules for healthcare professionals, which can further hinder their ability to maintain good health. The medical community needs to focus more on prevention, rather than just treatment, to create a more holistic approach to healthcare.

    • Addressing the Challenges for Health Coaches in Functional Integrative MedicineThe growing need for preventative care and disease-specific training for health coaches, alongside closer collaboration between medical professionals and health coaches, can help health coaches thrive in the functional integrative medicine field and mitigate the public health crisis of obesity.

      The healthcare industry's focus on hospital-based medicine and quick medical visits has led to a need for alternative resources for individuals seeking guidance on diet, lifestyle, and preventative care. The explosion of functional integrative medicine practitioners, such as health coaches, is a heartwarming response to this need. However, the system's profitability and the challenges of making a living in this field have made it difficult for these practitioners to gain traction. To address this, there is a need for more disease-specific training for health coaches and closer collaboration between medical professionals and health coaches. Obesity, as a major comorbidity factor in severe COVID cases, highlights the importance of preventative care and the potential public health crisis it presents. Obesity can lead to issues with ventilation, increased risk of clotting, and an altered immune response, affecting both the individual and the healthcare system as a whole.

    • Obesity prolongs viral shedding and increases risk of severe viral outbreaksObesity can weaken the immune system, prolong viral shedding, and increase the risk of severe viral outbreaks. Exposure to open air can help improve immune function.

      Obesity not only increases the risk of contracting viral infections but also prolongs the viral shedding period. This means more opportunities for the virus to spread and potentially become more virulent. From a public health perspective, a large population with obesity could lead to more severe viral outbreaks over time. Obesity affects various aspects of our body's physiology, including mechanical, physiological, hormonal, endocrine, and immune factors. It's strongly associated with other health issues like heart disease, cardiometabolic disease, and cancer. The adipose tissue itself can contribute to a negative immune response, leading to an overshooting cytokine storm. Exposure to nature and open air has been found to lower mortality rates for viral infections, such as the 1918 Spanish flu epidemic. This open air factor, which is different from sunlight and vitamin D, can help improve immune function. If you can't get outside, simple actions like opening a car window or door can help increase exposure to the open air factor. The pandemic has highlighted the importance of addressing obesity and its comorbidities as a societal issue, requiring individual and policy-level efforts to ensure access to better food, safe places to exercise, stress reduction, and overall health improvement.

    • The benefits of spending time in nature, especially during times of illness or isolationSpending time outside in nature, with exposure to soil microbes, can improve mental and physical health. This 'germicidal constituent' is crucial during illness or isolation, as bacteria play a role in fighting viral infections like COVID-19. Prioritize outdoor time for better health.

      Spending time outside in nature, ideally with some exposure to soil microbes, can significantly improve mental and physical health. This effect, known as the "germicidal constituent," can be particularly beneficial during times of illness or isolation. Despite the proven benefits, public health messaging during the pandemic emphasized staying inside, which overlooked the importance of outdoor time. This oversight is especially concerning given the role of bacteria in fighting viral infections, as seen with antibiotics and viral illnesses like COVID-19. The lack of public awareness about the importance of bacteria and the benefits of outdoor time is astounding, and it's crucial for individuals to prioritize spending time in nature whenever possible.

    • COVID-19 and Misuse of AntibioticsDuring the pandemic, individuals overused antibiotics, worsening outcomes for some. Simple measures like being outside, avoiding antibiotics, and not suppressing symptoms could have helped. Future pandemics require a stronger public health system and thoughtful resource allocation.

      During the COVID-19 pandemic, there was a significant misuse of antibiotics and an overreliance on them, despite evidence suggesting they could worsen outcomes for some individuals. Meanwhile, simple measures like getting outside, avoiding unnecessary antibiotics, and not suppressing coughs or fevers could have helped improve individuals' chances of recovering. Additionally, the pandemic highlighted the need for a stronger public health system and more thoughtful approaches to risk assessment and resource allocation. Looking forward, it's crucial to strike a balance between taking care of ourselves and understanding the limitations of medical interventions. The ongoing COVID-19 situation also underscores the importance of being prepared for future pandemics, as there is a high statistical likelihood of such events occurring. While there have been advancements in treatments like Paxlovid for COVID-19, there is still a need for caution and adherence to guidelines to minimize potential negative side effects. Overall, the pandemic served as a valuable learning experience, and it's essential that we continue to assess and improve our response strategies for future health crises.

    • Considering the Impact of Hygiene Products on HealthInstead of focusing solely on adding beneficial microbes, reduce practices harming healthy ones, such as frequent washing, and opt for effective natural or chemical-free products.

      It's important to consider the impact of our consumer habits on our health, particularly when it comes to the products we use for hygiene and personal care. Over the past seven years, there has been a shift from using antibacterial products to probiotic ones. However, instead of focusing on adding beneficial microbes, we should also consider reducing practices that harm our healthy microbes. This includes washing less frequently and giving our scalp and skin a chance to regenerate. The focus should be on enhancing our body's natural processes rather than destroying and replacing them. Some natural or chemical-free products may be more effective, but it's essential that they are also efficacious. Common problematic ingredients include sodium lauryl sulfate, chlorinated water, fluoride, and alcohol. It's also worth noting that everyone's body and hygiene needs are different, so it's essential to find a balance that works for you. In the case of long COVID, it's crucial to prioritize overall health and well-being, including good hygiene practices and a balanced diet.

    • Long COVID: Building on Precedent from Post-Viral SyndromesLong COVID presents with over 200 symptoms and is complex in nature, with potential contributing factors including viral-induced dysbiosis, autoimmunity, and Epstein Barr virus reactivation.

      Long COVID, or the post-acute sequelae of COVID-19, is not a new concept, despite being a relatively new virus. Post viral syndromes, including chronic conditions like HIV, hepatitis C, and sexually transmitted diseases, have provided precedent for the long-term effects of viral infections. Long COVID presents with over 200 symptoms, and researchers are identifying microbial differences in patients with chronic symptoms versus those who recover. The virus itself can induce dysbiosis, and dysbiosis is a risk factor for worse outcomes. Additionally, autoimmunity and reactivation of Epstein Barr virus are potential contributing factors. It's important to note that not all patients with autoimmune markers will develop an autoimmune disease, and the relationship between these markers and long-term health outcomes is still unclear. Overall, the long-term effects of COVID-19 are complex and multifaceted, and ongoing research is necessary to fully understand the underlying mechanisms and potential interventions.

    • Understanding EBV and FMT's role in non-COVID conditionsEBV research continues to evolve with potential long-term benefits, while FMT shows promise in treating acute conditions but requires a holistic approach for chronic diseases

      While there have been significant advancements in understanding the role of Epstein-Barr Virus (EBV) in various diseases, including multiple sclerosis and lymphoma, the connection to non-COVID conditions is still a question mark. The science may not be novel, but the applications and implications continue to evolve. Regarding fecal microbiota transplants (FMT), the success in treating acute conditions like Clostridium difficile (CDIF) colitis is well-documented. However, the application to chronic conditions like autoimmune diseases or neurological disorders is more complex. The short-term nature of most studies and the importance of addressing the dietary factors that influence gut microbes are crucial considerations. In summary, while there are promising developments in both EBV research and FMT applications, it's essential to recognize the nuances and complexities involved. The potential for long-term benefits and the importance of a holistic approach are crucial aspects to consider.

    • Impact of Diet and Quality of Microbes on Gut HealthThe health of our gut and microbiome can be influenced by diet and the quality of introduced microbes. Future innovations may allow us to amplify or reintroduce our own bacteria, but careful consideration of microbe quality is crucial.

      The health of our gut and the microbiome within it can be significantly influenced by what we eat and the quality of the microbes we introduce into our bodies through methods like fecal transplants. The quality of the stool matters, and ideally, we want to introduce microbes from individuals with healthy, diverse diets. In the future, there may be innovations that allow us to amplify our own bacteria or take them out of the body and reintroduce them, eliminating the need for donor stool. However, it's essential to consider the quality of the microbes we're introducing, and the current vetting process is quite basic. To find healthcare professionals who specialize in the integrative approach to treating digestive disorders through food as medicine, consider asking questions and looking for practitioners who are open to this concept, regardless of their specific dietary focus.

    • The Power of Food as MedicineGastroenterologist Dr. Robynne Chutkan emphasizes the importance of dietary changes and open communication with healthcare providers about alternative approaches to healthcare. She bridges gaps between different practitioners and provides practical, actionable information on the microbiome.

      The power of food as medicine should not be underestimated. Dr. Robynne Chutkan, a gastroenterologist, shares how her perspective on healthcare evolved through her patients' experiences with dietary changes. She encourages open communication with healthcare providers about alternative approaches and emphasizes the importance of bringing them along on the journey. The transformation of the medical community requires collaboration and bridging the gaps between different practitioners. Dr. Chutkan's work on the microbiome and communication of complex topics in a practical and actionable way is a valuable service. Additionally, she made a significant impact during the Black Lives Matter movement in 2020. To learn more about her work, visit robinchutkan.com or follow her on Instagram under the handle "gutbliss."

    • Supporting creators and communityEngage with content and creators by subscribing, leaving reviews, purchasing merchandise, and sharing to deepen connection and help sustain their work. Practice self-care and consider plant-based living for personal growth and overall well-being.

      The importance of supporting the things and people that resonate with us. This can be done in various ways, such as subscribing to a podcast, leaving a review, purchasing merchandise, or sharing episodes with friends. By engaging in these activities, we not only help to sustain the creators and their work, but we also deepen our own connection to the content and community. Additionally, the episode emphasizes the significance of self-care and plant-based living as paths to personal growth and overall well-being. Remember to visit richroll.com for more resources and information, and consider subscribing to the newsletter for updates and special offers. Together, we can continue to learn, grow, and make a positive impact.

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    The Rich Roll Podcast
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    The Rich Roll Podcast
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    The Rich Roll Podcast
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