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    Unorthodox PM wisdom: Automating user insights, unselling job candidates, logging every decision, more | Kevin Yien (Stripe, Square, Mutiny)

    enAugust 18, 2024
    What does Kevin Yen compare product management to?
    Why is documenting decisions important for product managers?
    What is the 'tuning fork' feedback strategy?
    How can prior experience benefit a product manager?
    What mindset does Kevin emphasize for personal growth?

    Podcast Summary

    • Product Manager ExperienceGaining experience in various roles beforehand can benefit future product managers by providing unique insights and a solid foundation for effective decision making and value realization

      To be an effective product manager, gaining experience in various roles beforehand can be beneficial. Kevin Yen, the guest on this podcast episode, likens the role of a product manager to converting potential into realized value with minimal loss. When starting a new product, engineers, designers, and other front-line team members should handle this conversion process. After gaining experience and a solid foundation, one can then take on the product manager role with unique insights. Yen also emphasizes the importance of making decisions, documenting the rationale behind them, and observing the outcomes. He shares an interesting hiring approach using an "unsell email" to assess a candidate's excitement and resilience. The conversation covers various topics, including hiring, decision logs, automating customer research, and stories about failure and AI. This episode is valuable for anyone aiming to become a better product manager or leader.

    • Team dynamics, Product management rolesEffective product management involves maximizing team efforts, not just managing resources. Roles can be distributed among team members, and great PMs need to be great writers for clear communication.

      Effective product management involves unlocking the potential of a team by maximizing their efforts, rather than just managing resources. This perspective can lead to improved team dynamics and better outcomes. However, not every team requires a dedicated product manager. Instead, the responsibilities of a product manager can be distributed among team members, such as engineers, designers, or salespeople, depending on their strengths and the complexity of the project. Great product managers also need to be great writers, as writing is essential for creating clarity at scale, both internally and externally. Clear communication is a crucial aspect of the PM role, and writing is a foundational skill that can help PMs sell and support their products effectively. To become a great writer, one can draw inspiration from writers like Anthony Bourdain and be willing to learn through reading and writing regularly.

    • Writing Inspiration and ConsistencyReading inspiring writing and maintaining a consistent writing cadence are crucial for becoming a great writer. Trusting your team to fill in the problem space and focusing on design details can lead to better quality work.

      Becoming a great writer involves consuming and being inspired by beautiful writing. Reading material that compels you to action is essential. Paul Graham's essays and finding specific voices on social media are excellent examples of this. Another important aspect is maintaining a consistent cadence in your writing, which keeps the reader engaged. Additionally, having a high design ratio in product development, where designers outnumber product managers, can lead to better quality work. PMs should focus on drawing the perimeter of the problem space and trusting their team to fill it in. However, it's essential for PMs to have a strong opinion and do the legwork to gain their team's trust. A great example is designing an intuitive animation for a point-of-sale system that caters to both experienced and inexperienced users. This seemingly small detail can make a significant difference in adoption.

    • Product animationProduct managers should ensure high-quality animation by being involved in every detail, defining and adhering to constraints, and prioritizing the customer's problem-solving outcome

      As a product manager, it's crucial to be involved in every detail of a product, even the seemingly insignificant ones like animation. Product managers should not shy away from the responsibility of ensuring the final deliverable is of high quality. This may involve spending extra time and resources on certain aspects, even if it means pushing back on deadlines or reallocating priorities. The process of defining and adhering to constraints, or drawing the perimeter, can help engineers and designers create the most creative solutions. By clearly defining the user, jobs to be done, and technical considerations, product managers can provide the team with the necessary constraints to focus their efforts effectively. Ultimately, the goal is to create a product that solves a customer's problem, and it's essential to prioritize that outcome above all else.

    • Feedback strategy, Decision makingImplementing a 'tuning fork' feedback strategy and maintaining a decision log can improve communication, collaboration, and decision-making efficiency in product development teams.

      Effective communication and feedback are crucial for product development. The use of a "tuning fork" feedback strategy, where a team gathers to review and provide feedback on a document in real-time, can lead to more productive and efficient decision-making. This approach allows for immediate back-and-forth, reducing the latency between feedback and iteration, ultimately moving the team one clock speed faster. Another important practice for product managers is maintaining a decision log, which involves documenting decisions made, the rationale behind them, and their outcomes. This helps PMs reflect on past decisions, learn from mistakes, and improve their decision-making abilities overall. By implementing these strategies, product teams can enhance their communication, collaboration, and ultimately, the success of their projects.

    • Decision LoggingDocumenting decisions, reasons, and outcomes can enhance decision-making abilities and productivity. Start small, gradually increase depth and frequency, and apply to various aspects of life for continuous learning and improved processes.

      Maintaining a daily or decision log can significantly enhance your decision-making abilities and productivity. This practice, as shared by Kevin, involves documenting decisions, reasons behind them, and following up to assess outcomes. It's an effective way to learn from past experiences, understand the rationale of others, and continuously improve. Starting small with simple tasks and gradually increasing the frequency and depth of logs can help make this habit second nature. Additionally, this method can be applied to various aspects of life, including interviewing, where reflecting on past hiring decisions and their outcomes can lead to better interviewing skills. The unsell email, a unique hiring approach mentioned by Kevin, involves trying to dissuade potential candidates from joining the company to gauge their interest and commitment levels. Overall, these practices, when combined, can lead to better decision-making, continuous learning, and improved hiring processes.

    • Transparency in hiringBeing transparent during the hiring process by addressing potential challenges and concerns upfront leads to stronger hires and fewer surprises.

      Transparency in the hiring process can lead to better hires and happier employees. The speaker shared an experience from his time at Square where he implemented an "on-sell email," a candid email sent to candidates during the offer stage, detailing potential challenges and concerns they might face in the role or company. This practice was met with initial resistance but ultimately led to stronger hires and fewer surprises down the line. The speaker emphasized the importance of understanding candidates' fears and anxieties throughout the interview process and addressing them upfront to ensure a good fit for both parties. He also touched on the importance of hiring managers being directly involved in the hiring process and investing time in understanding each candidate individually. While automating user research can be tempting, the speaker stressed the importance of direct interaction with customers for product managers to gain a deeper understanding of their needs and preferences.

    • Direct Customer EngagementDirectly engaging with customers is essential for product managers to gain deep insights into their needs and constraints. This can be achieved through various means such as user interviews, sales teams, and automated systems for customer feedback. Addressing obstacles to direct customer contact and continuously engaging with customers helps keep product strategies informed.

      As a product manager, it's crucial to directly engage with customers to gain a deep understanding of their needs and constraints. This can be achieved through various means such as user interviews, leveraging sales teams as research resources, and setting up automated systems for customer feedback. If there are obstacles preventing direct customer contact, they should be addressed first. Automating customer research using tools like Gong, Zapier, and custom scripts can help streamline the process and save time. Engaging with customers provides valuable insights that cannot be obtained through reports or secondary sources. Even if you've been in the role for a long time, it's essential to continue talking to customers to stay informed about their evolving needs and adjust your product strategy accordingly.

    • AI and Creativity, Human-Technology RelationshipChildren perceive AI as a tool for creation rather than a replacement, challenging our understanding of AI's role in art and creativity. Reflecting on failures and learning valuable lessons from them is essential for personal growth and adapting to new opportunities.

      Technology, especially AI and language models, can be perceived in a new and innocent way by children, blurring the lines between creation and generation. This was highlighted in a personal story shared by a product manager, who described his seven-year-old daughter's reaction to using an image generation model. She saw the generated image as something she had drawn herself, demonstrating a unique perspective that challenges our understanding of the role of AI in art and creativity. Moreover, the speaker also shared a story of failure and how he found the strength to move on and regain his confidence. He emphasized the importance of recognizing the difference between personal inadequacy and a company's needs. By reflecting on this experience, he learned valuable lessons that helped him grow and adapt to new opportunities. These stories provide insights into the evolving relationship between humans and technology, as well as the importance of resilience and self-reflection in the face of adversity.

    • Environment and RoleFinding the right environment and role is crucial for personal growth and productivity. Adapting to or finding a new environment that suits one's unique skills and work style can significantly impact creativity, motivation, and overall success.

      Finding the right environment and role is crucial for personal growth and productivity. It's not always about changing oneself, but rather adapting to or finding a new environment that suits one's unique skills and work style. This applies not only to hiring and management but also to interviewing and career growth. The way a company operates can significantly impact an employee's creativity, motivation, and overall success. As for recommendations, Kevin suggests reading autobiographies and memoirs to learn from people and their mental models. He also highly recommends "The Courage to Be Discontent" by Paul Tillich, which encourages focusing on what one can control and being the person one wants to attract. Additionally, Kevin enjoys the Netflix show "The Bear" for its attention to detail and the Korean show "Physical 100" for its respectful competition. Lastly, he recommends magnetic trays for organizing small items while working on projects and the app Circuit for tracking workouts.

    • Growth MindsetEmbracing a growth mindset and refusing to settle can lead to unexpected achievements and personal growth, even in unconventional areas like competitive eating.

      Having a growth mindset and refusing to settle for the minimum can lead to surprising achievements and personal growth. Kevin shared stories from his life, including his mom's advice to focus on the future instead of dwelling on the past, and his dad's encouragement to strive for more than the expected 100%. This mindset also applied to his unexpected hobby as a competitive eater, where he pushed himself to consume large quantities of food, defying expectations. Kevin can be found on Twitter @KevinYen and encourages listeners to be kind and make the world a nicer place.

    Recent Episodes from Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

    The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway)

    The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway)

    Camille Fournier is the author of The Manager’s Path, which many consider the definitive guide for navigating one’s career path in tech. Camille was previously the CTO of Rent the Runway, VP of Technology at Goldman Sachs, Head of Platform Engineering at Two Sigma, and Global Head of Engineering and Architecture at JPMorgan Chase. She is about to release new newest book, Platform Engineering: A Guide for Technical, Product, and People Leaders. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • What product managers do that annoys engineers

    • Why major rewrites are a trap

    • Why you should have fewer one-on-ones

    • Strategies for organizing and working with platform teams

    • Tips for new managers

    • Advice for transitioning from individual contributor to manager

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    DX—A platform for measuring and improving developer productivity

    CommandBar—AI-powered user assistance for modern products and impatient users

    Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace

    Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/engineering-leadership-camille-fournier

    Where to find Camille Fournier:

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/camille-fournier-9011812/

    • Website: https://skamille.medium.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Camille’s background

    (02:17) Common annoyances between PMs and engineers

    (07:09) Avoiding the telephone game

    (08:05) Hoarding ideas and over-engineering

    (09:55) The importance of involving engineers in ideation

    (11:37) The middle-person dilemma

    (14:21) Rewriting systems: a big trap?

    (20:40) Engineering leadership lessons

    (36:02) Moving from IC to management

    (40:32) One-on-one meetings

    (45:10) Pushing beyond comfort zones

    (45:27) Building a balanced work culture

    (48:01) Effective time management strategies

    (54:15) Advice for platform team success

    (01:02:42) Platform team responsibilities

    (01:04:43) When to form a platform team

    (01:07:02) Thriving on a platform team

    (01:12:48) AI corner

    (01:17:03) Lightning round and final thoughts

    Referenced:

    Platform Engineering: A Guide for Technical, Product, and People Leaders: https://www.amazon.com/Platform-Engineering-Technical-Product-Leaders/dp/1098153642/

    The Manager’s Path: A Guide for Tech Leaders Navigating Growth and Change: https://www.amazon.com/Managers-Path-Leaders-Navigating-Growth/dp/1491973897

    97 Things Every Engineering Manager Should Know: Collective Wisdom from the Experts: https://www.amazon.com/Things-Every-Engineering-Manager-Should/dp/1492050903

    • Avoiding the Rewrite Trap: https://skamille.medium.com/avoiding-the-rewrite-trap-b1283b8dd39e

    • Levelsio on X: https://x.com/levelsio

    • Pieter Levels on the Lex Fridman Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtjKbXKqbg

    • GraphQL: https://graphql.org/

    New Blue Sun by André 3000 on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/33Ek6daAL3oXyQIV1uoItD

    • Musk’s 5 Steps to Cut Internal Bureaucracy at Tesla and SpaceX: https://icecreates.com/insight/musk-s-5-steps-to-cut-internal-bureaucracy-at-tesla-and-spacex-you-may-say-it-s-his-algorithm/

    • Ian Nowland on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/inowland/

    • Studio Pulls ‘Megalopolis’ Trailer Using Fake Quotes from Famed Movie Critics: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/studio-pulls-megalopolis-trailer-using-fake-quotes-from-famed-movie-critics_n_66c74046e4b0f1ca469413c7

    • Claude 2: https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-2

    What Got You Here Won’t Get You There: How Successful People Become Even More Successful: https://www.amazon.com/What-Got-Here-Wont-There/dp/1401301304

    When Things Fall Apart: Heart Advice for Difficult Times: https://www.amazon.com/When-Things-Fall-Apart-Difficult/dp/1611803438

    Alien: Romulus: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt18412256/

    • Whoop: https://www.whoop.com

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Land your dream job in today’s market: negotiation tactics, job search councils, and more | Phyl Terry (Author, “Never Search Alone”)

    Land your dream job in today’s market: negotiation tactics, job search councils, and more | Phyl Terry (Author, “Never Search Alone”)

    Phyl Terry is the author of Never Search Alone, which I’ve seen so many people reference as the most impactful guide they read for finding a job. Phyl was on the founding team of the first company Amazon acquired back in the ’90s and then was CEO of pioneering product consulting firm Creative Good, with companies like Apple, Facebook, and Microsoft as customers. Today, Phyl is the founder and CEO of Collaborative Gain, which 20 years ago pioneered bringing councils to senior product leaders and GMs in Silicon Valley. That’s their day job—in addition to that, Phyl runs a free global community for job seekers based on their latest book. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • Why you should never search for a job alone

    • How job search councils work

    • How to determine your “candidate-market fit”

    • How to conduct a listening tour

    • Creating your job mission and OKRs

    • How to negotiate job offers

    • The art of asking for help

    • Tactics for effective networking and interviewing

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Sidebar—Accelerate your career by surrounding yourself with extraordinary peers

    Sprig—Build products for people, not data points

    Dovetail—The customer insights hub for product teams

    Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/land-your-dream-phyl-terry

    Where to find Phyl Terry:

    • X: https://x.com/phylterry

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/phylterry/

    • Website: https://www.phyl.org/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Phyl’s background

    (01:58) The concept of job search councils

    (04:27) The power of community in job searching

    (08:55) The scale and structure of job search councils

    (12:27) The impact of job search councils

    (20:19) The concept of candidate-market fit

    (22:50) Writing a Mnookin two-pager

    (24:37) Conducting listening tours

    (30:12) Creating a focused candidate-market fit

    (36:20) Advice on finding the right stage of company for you

    (40:37) Identifying your unique path

    (45:30) Navigating tough job markets

    (49:07) Playing to win

    (53:36) Negotiation tactics for job offers

    (01:05:12) The gratitude house exercise

    (01:10:48) The power of asking for help

    (01:19:18) How to ask for help

    (01:28:40) Final thoughts and advice

    (01:38:21) Lightning round

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    How LinkedIn became interesting: The inside story | Tomer Cohen (CPO at LinkedIn)

    How LinkedIn became interesting: The inside story | Tomer Cohen (CPO at LinkedIn)

    Tomer Cohen is the chief product officer at LinkedIn, responsible for setting the company’s product strategy, leading product development, user experience design, business development, content creation, and customer operations. He also hosts the Building One podcast, where he interviews exceptional builders across various disciplines. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • How LinkedIn transformed its feed into an engaging content and social platform

    • Tomer’s famous “We might be wrong, but we are not confused” mantra

    • The importance of conviction and passion in product leadership

    • LinkedIn’s approach to experimenting with and implementing AI features

    • Lessons from Tomer’s rapid career progression at LinkedIn

    • Strategies for embracing AI in product development

    Brought to you by:

    Gamma—A new way to present, powered by AI

    WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs

    Merge—A single API to add hundreds of integrations into your app

    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-linkedin-became-interesting-tomer-cohen

    Where to find Tomer Cohen:

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomercohen/

    • Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/building-one-with-tomer-cohen/id1726672498

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Introduction to Tomer Cohen and his role at LinkedIn

    (02:28) The mantra “We might be wrong, but we are not confused”

    (06:45) Clarity of thought and focus

    (13:03) Setting ambitious goals and overdelivering

    (16:18) Transforming LinkedIn’s feed: strategy and execution

    (22:03) Running experiments at scale

    (26:24) Goal setting and identifying opportunities 

    (30:58) AI’s role in LinkedIn’s evolution

    (35:38) The AI-first mindset at LinkedIn

    (35:38) Developing an AI-first mindset

    (44:49) Letting go of your roadmaps and allowing room for exploration

    (49:12) Career growth and personal insights

    (55:01) Takeaways

    (56:39) Lightning round and final thoughts

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    The original growth hacker reveals his secrets | Sean Ellis (author of “Hacking Growth”)

    The original growth hacker reveals his secrets | Sean Ellis (author of “Hacking Growth”)

    Sean Ellis is one of the earliest and most influential thinkers and operators in growth. He coined the term “growth hacking,” invented the ICE prioritization framework, was one of the earliest people to use freemium as a growth lever, and, most famously, developed the Sean Ellis Test for product-market fit (which a large percentage of founders use today to track if they’ve found PMF). Over the course of his career, Sean was head of growth at Dropbox and Eventbrite; helped companies like Microsoft and Nubank refine their growth strategy; was on the founding team of LogMeIn, which sold for over $4 billion; and is the author of one of the most popular growth books of all time, Hacking Growth, which has sold over 750,000 copies. In our conversation, he shares:

    • The proper use of the Sean Ellis Test for measuring product-market fit

    • How to increase your activation and retention rates

    • How to select the right North Star metric for your business

    • Case studies from his work growing Dropbox and other products

    • How growth strategy has changed over the past decade

    • How AI is impacting growth efforts

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Gamma—A new way to present, powered by AI

    CommandBar—AI-powered user assistance for modern products and impatient users

    Merge—A single API to add hundreds of integrations into your app

    Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-original-growth-hacker-sean-ellis

    Where to find Sean Ellis:

    • X: https://x.com/seanellis

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/seanellis/

    • Website: https://www.seanellis.me/

    • Substack: https://substack.com/@seanellis

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Sean’s background

    (02:18) The Sean Ellis test explained

    (06:28) The 40% rule

    (08:06) Case study: improving product-market fit

    (12:34) Understanding and leveraging customer feedback

    (16:50) Challenges and nuances of product-market fit

    (22:22) When to use the Sean Ellis Test

    (23:46) When not to use the Sean Ellis Test and other caveats

    (27:13) Defining your own threshold and how the Sean Ellis Test came about

    (36:13) Tools for implementing the survey 

    (37:30) Transitioning from surveys to retention cohorts

    (39:13) Nubank’s approach

    (40:18) Case study: Superhuman’s strategy for increasing product-market fit

    (45:18) Coining the term “growth hacking”

    (48:24) How to approach growth

    (57:25) Improving activation and onboarding

    (01:05:17) Identifying effective growth channels

    (01:10:28) The power of customer conversations

    (01:12:43) Developing the Dropbox referral program

    (01:14:47) The importance of word of mouth

    (01:15:23) Freemium models and engagement

    (01:19:21) Picking a North Star metric

    (01:24:30) The evolution of growth strategies

    (01:27:12) The ICE and RICE frameworks

    (01:30:11) AI’s role in growth and experimentation

    (01:32:52) Final thoughts and lightning round

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Airbnb’s Vlad Loktev on embracing chaos, inquiry over advocacy, poking the bear, and “impact, impact, impact” (Partner at Index Ventures, Airbnb GM/VP Product)

    Airbnb’s Vlad Loktev on embracing chaos, inquiry over advocacy, poking the bear, and “impact, impact, impact” (Partner at Index Ventures, Airbnb GM/VP Product)

    Vlad Loktev spent 10 years at Airbnb, where he started as an IC PM and quickly advanced to lead the core Airbnb marketplace business and then GM the entire homes business, managing over 1,000 people and reporting directly to CEO Brian Chesky. He recently left Airbnb and joined Index Ventures as their newest partner. Vlad was my manager at Airbnb for many years, and is the person I credit most for teaching me how to be a great product manager. Prior to Airbnb, Vlad spent a year at Zynga, where he helped grow Words with Friends to over 14 million daily active users. In our conversation, Vlad shares:

    • Insight into Brian Chesky’s leadership style

    • Why success as a PM is all about impact, impact, impact

    • Why chaos can be good

    • Why as a leader it’s OK to let some fires burn

    • Why you should learn to “poke the bear”

    • Balancing product release speed with quality

    • Lessons on prioritization, decision-making, and organizational design

    • Advice for founders on building company culture

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application

    Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security

    Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments

    Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/impact-impact-impact-vlad-loktev

    Where to find Vlad Loktev:

    • X: https://x.com/vladimirloktev

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vladimirloktev/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Vlad’s background

    (02:54) Reflecting on transformative years at Airbnb

    (04:28) Skills and mindsets for success

    (11:03) Impact-driven mindset

    (13:16) Saying no and inquiry before advocacy 

    (17:54) “Poking the bear”

    (22:46) Psychological tools for leadership

    (30:08) Building and scaling teams

    (36:12) Letting fires burn

    (47:34) Embracing chaos

    (54:40) The unsell email strategy

    (01:02:01) Finding your place in an organization

    (01:05:38) The importance of company culture

    (01:13:16) Airbnb’s unique approach to product management

    (01:26:41) Failure corner

    (01:31:32) Lightning round and final thoughts

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    How to consistently go viral: Nikita Bier’s playbook for winning at consumer apps (co-founder of TBH, Gas, advisor, investor)

    How to consistently go viral: Nikita Bier’s playbook for winning at consumer apps (co-founder of TBH, Gas, advisor, investor)

    Nikita Bier is one of the most in-demand consumer, social, and growth experts in the world. He’s the co-founder of TBH (sold to Meta for more than $30 million) and Gas (sold to Discord for millions more) and has helped more consumer apps that have hit #1 in the app stores than any other person I’ve come across. He currently spends his time advising founders on growth, product, and design and is an investor and advisor to some of the best consumer tech companies, including Flo, Locket, Eight Sleep, Citizen, BeReal, Captions, and more. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • The inside story of how TBH and Gas achieved explosive growth

    • Strategies for building viral consumer apps

    • Why teens are such a great audience

    • Fighting the human trafficking hoax at Gas

    • The challenge of creating durable social products

    • His experience working as a PM at Facebook

    • Advice for founders on building consumer apps

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Webflow—The web experience platform

    Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security

    Explo—Embed customer-facing analytics in your product

    Book Nikita for 1:1 consultation/mentoring: https://intro.co/NikitaBier

    Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-consistently-go-viral-nikita-bier

    Where to find Nikita Bier:

    • X: https://x.com/nikitabier 

    • Threads: https://www.threads.net/@nikitabier

    • Website: https://intro.co/NikitaBier

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Nikita’s background 

    (06:08) Nikita’s early ventures: Politify and Outline

    (08:42) Transition to consumer apps

    (13:45) The birth of TBH

    (16:43) Building for teens vs. adults

    (20:00) TBH’s viral success

    (32:18) Leveraging live chat

    (34:08) Lasting lessons from TBH

    (37:00) Selling TBH to Facebook

    (42:19) Big-tech product management

    (48:46) Nikita on why “product management is not real”

    (51:49) The Tim Cook painting story

    (53:53) Leaving Facebook and starting a new venture

    (58:02) Rebuilding TBH and overcoming challenges

    (59:46) Addressing criticism

    (01:04:24) The human trafficking hoax

    (01:09:51) Selling to Discord and lessons learned

    (01:11:36) Lasting lessons from Gas

    (01:13:14) Building durable consumer apps

    (01:22:35) The VC route

    (01:23:27) Contact permissions in iOS 18

    (01:26:53) The success of Dupe

    (01:31:53) Advice for startup founders

    (01:34:14) Work with Nikita

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Succeeding as an introvert, building zero-to-one, and why you should PM your career like you PM your product | Deb Liu (CEO of Ancestry, ex-Facebook, PayPal, eBay)

    Succeeding as an introvert, building zero-to-one, and why you should PM your career like you PM your product | Deb Liu (CEO of Ancestry, ex-Facebook, PayPal, eBay)

    Deb Liu is the CEO of Ancestry and former longtime VP of Product at Facebook. At Facebook, Deb led the creation of Facebook Marketplace, developed the first mobile ad product for apps, built the company’s games business, and launched Facebook Pay. She’s also held leadership roles at PayPal and eBay, serves on the board of Intuit, and is the author of Take Back Your Power. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • Why you should PM your career like you PM your product

    • Strategies for incubating new products within large companies

    • Creating a successful 30-60-90-day plan when starting a new job

    • The pitfalls of perfectionism

    • The challenges introverts face in the workplace and how to overcome them

    • The value of resilience and turning failures into stepping stones

    • How to leverage coaching in your career development

    Brought to you by:

    Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application

    WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs

    Webflow—The web experience platform

    Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/succeeding-as-an-introvert-deb-liu

    Where to find Deb Liu:

    • Threads: https://www.threads.net/@debliu

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deborahliu

    • Substack: https://debliu.substack.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Introduction to Deb Liu

    (02:18) Deb’s career journey and key advice

    (09:45) Navigating new roles and challenges

    (11:27) Overcoming adversity and failure

    (15:07) Building billion-dollar businesses at Facebook

    (19:33) Strategies for zero-to-one innovation

    (23:40) PM your career like a product

    (33:53) Challenges and strategies for introverts in business

    (39:19) Reframing self-promotion

    (42:25) The power of accountability

    (46:15) Growth: a game of inches

    (50:52) The 30-60-90-day plan

    (56:52) Contrarian corner: career and marriage

    (58:57) Final nuggets of wisdom

    (01:03:09) How to find a coach

    (01:04:47) Lightning round

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Unorthodox PM wisdom: Automating user insights, unselling job candidates, logging every decision, more | Kevin Yien (Stripe, Square, Mutiny)

    Unorthodox PM wisdom: Automating user insights, unselling job candidates, logging every decision, more | Kevin Yien (Stripe, Square, Mutiny)

    Kevin Yien leads product for merchant experiences at Stripe. Before that, he meandered his way from being a technical designer to a product manager, built the restaurants business and ecosystem team at Square, and most recently was head of product and design at Mutiny. He also makes ice cream and teaches for fun. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • Why aspiring PMs should start in engineering, design, or sales

    • The importance of writing skills, and how to become a better writer

    • How to automate user research

    • Kevin’s “unsell email” technique for hiring

    • The value of keeping a decision log

    • Insights on AI and its impact on future generations

    • Lessons from failure

    Brought to you by:

    BuildBetter—AI for product teams

    OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster

    Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments

    Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/unorthodox-pm-wisdom-kevin-yien

    Where to find Kevin Yien:

    • X: https://x.com/kevinyien

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinyien/

    • Website: https://kevinyien.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Kevin’s background 

    (02:00) The story behind Kevin’s profile picture

    (08:41) The role of a product manager

    (10:48) Getting started in product management

    (12:47) The importance of writing skills

    (15:06) Becoming a better writer

    (19:10) The PM’s role with engineering and design

    (28:41) Drawing the perimeter for your team

    (31:37) Feedback tips

    (35:13) Decision logs and product sense

    (45:36) Unorthodox hiring strategies

    (47:01) The unsell email strategy

    (54:01) Automating user research

    (01:02:27) AI in everyday life

    (01:06:05) Lessons from failure

    (01:14:34) Lightning round

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Improve strategy, influence, and decision-making by understanding your brain | Evan LaPointe (founder of CORE Sciences)

    Improve strategy, influence, and decision-making by understanding your brain | Evan LaPointe (founder of CORE Sciences)

    Evan LaPointe is the founder of CORE Sciences, which teaches companies and individuals how our brains work and how that translates to improved collaboration, better products, faster decision-making, and more growth. Previously, Evan was the co-founder of Satellite, the fourth-largest analytics company on the internet today (it mostly runs behind the scenes, and pretty much everyone listening will have used it today without knowing it), which was acquired by Adobe, where he later ran product strategy, innovation, and long-range thinking for Adobe’s digital experiences business. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • The three different systems of the brain

    • How knowing this can help you become more influential

    • How understanding different brain states will help you increase productivity and creativity

    • How to improve your vision and strategy skills

    • How to design a work environment that fosters innovation

    • How to build better relationships at work

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Webflow—The web experience platform

    Explo—Embed customer-facing analytics in your product

    Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments

    Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/understanding-your-brain-evan-lapointe

    Where to find Evan LaPointe:

    • X: https://x.com/evanlapointe

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/evanlapointe/

    • Website: https://www.core-sciences.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Evan’s background

    (02:37) Understanding the brain’s complex systems

    (07:17) The three core brain systems: safety, reward, and purpose

    (11:03) Applying brain science to team dynamics

    (14:27) The role of personality in team performance

    (17:27) Creating effective work environments

    (23:16) The science of meetings and decision-making

    (29:35) Enhancing strategy and vision

    (54:46) Understanding personality traits in strategy and vision

    (58:58) Tactical tips for increasing openness

    (01:05:46) Building influence and effective relationships

    (01:21:17) The importance of trust and appeal in relationships

    (01:36:47) Creating a positive organizational habitat

    (01:50:35) Enhancing focus and productivity

    (02:00:58) Practical tips for deep work and gamma time

    (02:07:11) Lightning round

    Referenced:

    • The Most Complicated Object in the Universe: https://today.uconn.edu/2018/03/complicated-object-universe/#

    • The Myers-Briggs personality test: https://www.themyersbriggs.com/en-US/Products-and-Services/Myers-Briggs

    • The Big Five personality test: https://www.thepersonalitylab.org/

    • The Enneagram personality test: https://enneagramtest.com/

    • An inside look at how Figma builds product | Yuhki Yamashita (CPO of Figma): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/an-inside-look-at-how-figma-builds

    • Vision, conviction, and hype: How to build 0 to 1 inside a company | Mihika Kapoor (Product at Figma): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/vision-conviction-hype-mihika-kapoor

    • Dylan Field live at Config: Intuition, simplicity, and the future of design: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/dylan-field-live-at-config

    • An inside look at Figma’s unique GTM motion | Claire Butler (first GTM hire): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/an-inside-look-at-figmas-unique-bottom

    • Inside Canva: Coaches not managers, giving away your Legos, and running profitably | Cameron Adams (co-founder and CPO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-canva-with-cameron-adams

    • The Science-Business Mismatch That Puts Your Change at Risk: https://changemanagementreview.com/the-science-business-mismatch-that-puts-your-change-at-risk/

    • Daniel Pink on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielpink/

    • Trello: https://trello.com/

    • Cron: https://cronhq.notion.site/

    • The Double Diamond framework for design thinking: https://www.fluxspace.io/resources/the-4-ds-double-diamond-design-thinking-model

    • CORE Sciences - Tips on Priming Great Meetings PDF: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gm21cj0vi0bjosyu8kd69/CORE-Sciences-Tips-on-Priming-Great-Meetings.pdf?rlkey=6fznhv7bbsxm8nj8m4luej17t&st=2eduirad&dl=0

    • How to grow a subscription business | Yuriy Timen (Grammarly, Canva, Airtable): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/transform-your-subscription-growth

    • Brené Brown’s website: https://brenebrown.com/

    • The CORE personality test: https://www.core-sciences.com/new-core-identity

    • Burning Man: https://burningman.org/

    • Stripe: https://stripe.com/

    • Jony Ive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jony_Ive

    • Albert Einstein quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7133605-make-things-as-simple-as-possible-but-no-simpler

    • Elden Ring: https://en.bandainamcoent.eu/elden-ring/elden-ring

    • Abilene paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox

    The Challenger Sale: Taking Control of the Customer Conversation: https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Sale-Control-Customer-Conversation/dp/1591844355

    • The surprising truth about what closes deals: Insights from 2.5m sales conversations | Matt Dixon (author of The Challenger Sale and The JOLT Effect): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/close-more-deals-matt-dixon

    • Siqi Chan on X: https://x.com/blader

    • Runway: https://runway.com/

    • Shreyas Doshi on pre-mortems, the LNO framework, the three levels of product work, why most execution problems are strategy problems, and ROI vs. opportunity cost thinking: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/episode-3-shreyas-doshi

    • Wolfgang Puck’s website: https://wolfgangpuck.com/

    • Steven Spielberg on X: https://x.com/sspielberg93

    • John Williams’s website: https://www.johnwilliams.org/

    • The paths to power: How to grow your influence and advance your career | Jeffrey Pfeffer (author of 7 Rules of Power, professor at Stanford GSB): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-paths-to-power-jeffrey-pfeffer

    • Warby Parker: https://www.warbyparker.com/

    • Simon Sinek’s website: https://simonsinek.com/

    • What is the function of the various brainwaves?: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the-function-of-t-1997-12-22/

    • CORE Sciences - Your Brain's 9 Modes PDF: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/figg8upeaawir1hnxv0ew/CORE-Sciences-Your-Brain-s-9-Modes.pdf?rlkey=u3zaonxvycvupurq6pwysckfq&st=os06xjnr&dl=0

    Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It: Unlock Your Persuasion Potential in Professional and Personal Life: https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-Depended/dp/0062407805

    The Person and the Situation: Perspectives of Social Psychology: https://www.amazon.com/Person-Situation-Perspectives-Social-Psychology/dp/1905177445

    Cambridge Fundamentals of Neuroscience in Psychology: https://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Fundamentals-Neuroscience-Psychology/dp/B08QYNDNYX

    • Robert Greene’s books on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Robert-Greene/author/B001IGV3IS

    Misbehaving: The Making of Behavioral Economics: https://www.amazon.com/Misbehaving-Behavioral-Economics-Richard-Thaler/dp/039335279X

    • Beehiiv: https://www.beehiiv.com/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    How embracing your emotions will accelerate your career | Joe Hudson (executive coach, Art of Accomplishment)

    How embracing your emotions will accelerate your career | Joe Hudson (executive coach, Art of Accomplishment)

    Joe Hudson is one of the most sought-after executive coaches in Silicon Valley. He is the founder of Art of Accomplishment, a transformational coaching program that has helped tens of thousands of people, including many tech executives and founders from companies like Apple, OpenAI, and Google. His unique method of transformation comes from over 25 years of exploring neurological, psychological, and spiritual traditions, tested against real-world challenges. In our conversation, Joe shares:

    • Why the critical voice in your head is always wrong, and how to change your relationship with that voice

    • Why authenticity trumps self-improvement

    • The importance of embracing all of your emotions

    • How to create more enjoyable and effective meetings

    • The power of gratitude in transforming your life

    • Practical experiments for personal growth

    • Much more

    Apply for Joe’s Connection Course:

    Thousands of students have taken Joe’s most popular experience, the Connection Course. Unlike most online courses, there is no reading, lectures, or written homework. It is a three-week experiential deep dive where you will apply your learnings to real-life problems—how to make your team more productive, communicate more effectively, and resolve conflicts with ease. Apply here and use the code LENNY for $300 off your enrollment: view.life/lenny.

    Brought to you by:

    BuildBetter—AI for product teams

    WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs

    Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace

    Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/embracing-your-emotions-joe-hudson

    Where to find Joe Hudson:

    • X: https://x.com/FU_joehudson

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-hudson/

    • Website: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/

    • Podcast: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/podcast

    • Linktree: https://linktr.ee/theartofaccomplishment

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Joe’s background

    (02:31) The critical voice in your head

    (06:39) Changing your relationship with the critical voice

    (13:19) Understanding and embracing emotions

    (19:52) The importance of emotional fluidity

    (24:40) Questioning assumptions and self-perception

    (30:25) The consequences of avoiding emotions

    (36:57) Experimenting with self-improvement

    (39:42) Understanding efficiency and enjoyment

    (43:17) The power of enjoyment in daily tasks

    (45:03) Innate enjoyment vs. learned enjoyment

    (46:31) Authenticity vs. self-improvement

    (50:01) Embracing emotional experiences

    (55:49) How understanding your emotions helps you make better decisions

    (01:02:53) Creating effective teams and meetings

    (01:10:40) Gratitude practice for personal growth

    (01:15:36) Conclusion and final thoughts

    Referenced:

    Descartes’ Error: Emotion, Reason, and the Human Brain: https://www.amazon.com/Descartes-Error-Emotion-Reason-Human/dp/014303622X/

    • Joe’s quote about joy: https://x.com/FU_joehudson/status/1756837774743790030

    • “Emotional Inquiry”: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/podcast/emotional-inquiry

    Inside Out 2: https://movies.disney.com/inside-out-2

    • “Question the Assumption”: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/podcast/question-the-assumption

    • Bodega Bay: https://www.bodegabay.com/

    • Elon Musk reveals the interview question he asks every candidate to instantly spot a liar: https://www.good.is/elon-musk-reveals-the-one-job-interview-question-he-asks-every-candidate-to-instantly-spot-a-liar

    • Great Decisions course: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/course/great-decisions-course

    • HBR Analytic Services: https://hbr.org/hbr-analytic-services

    • Connection Course: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/course/the-connection-course

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe