naspa

Transitioning Toward Inclusivity and Excellence in Student Affairs

Student affairs professionals are essential to the fabric of higher education, guiding students through their transformational college journey while grappling with their own career advances. Dr. Anna Gonzalez, NASPA's incoming board chair, brings her extensive experience in higher education to the forefront in a recent episode of the Student Affairs Voices from the Field podcast. As a first-generation college student and Filipino immigrant, she not only shares the lessons of her personal history but also sets the stage for the future of student affairs.

Embracing Identity and Leading with Inclusion

A journey marked by immigration at a young age, the pursuit of education, and ultimately, a leadership role in NASPA, Dr. Gonzalez's story is one of overcoming barriers and bringing true diversity to student affairs. Her advocacy for first-generation students, her stride in higher education policy, and her commitment to fostering diversity enrich the conversation around transitions within the student affairs profession.

Pioneering Change Amidst Global Challenges

In these times of global connectivity and unforeseen challenges, such as the COVID-19 pandemic, Dr. Gonzalez's experience transitioning to a significant role at WashU and her decision to accept the position as NASPA chair are testaments to adaptability and resilience. The interview, spanning two continents, showcases the transformative power of leaders who embrace change and prioritize the well-being of their colleagues and students.

Fostering Well-Being and Job Satisfaction in Student Affairs

The podcast delves into the crucial role of mid-level professionals in student affairs and the specific, intentional support they require. Dr. Creighton and Dr. Gonzalez emphasize the importance of strong supervision and staff recognition, addressing job satisfaction, workforce diversity, and benefits to cultivate healthy work-life balance. The ongoing dialogue underscores the necessity of redefining expectations for salaried employees in higher education and promoting a culture that appreciates the indispensable contributions of student affairs professionals.

The Path Forward: Advocacy and Policy in Higher Education

The episode not only celebrates the trajectory of Dr. Gonzalez but also presents crucial touchpoints for the future of student affairs, including advocacy in higher education policy. It illuminates the structural changes needed to recognize the value of student affairs and its impact on students and the civic health of society at large. Dr. Gonzalez's presidency promises to bring these concerns to the forefront, ensuring that higher education remains a pillar of opportunity and empowerment for all students.

Conclusion: A Call to Action for Student Affairs Professionals

Dr. Anna Gonzalez's reflections offer a beacon of inspiration and a call to action for student affairs professionals to advocate for change, recognize their value, and create inclusive environments for learning and growth. Her leadership in NASPA champions these principles, urging educators and policymakers alike to consider the significant influence they have in shaping the future of higher education.

TRANSCRIPTS

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]:
Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Welcome back to essay voices from the field where today we are thrilled to welcome NASPA's incoming board chair, doctor Ana Gonzalez. Doctor Gonzalez leads successful student affairs operations with a particular commitment to fostering diversity and inclusion in all aspects of student life. With 30 years of experience in higher education, she previously held positions at the University of California Irvine, the University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign, and at Lewis and Clark College where she was a founding faculty member and program director for the master's program in student affairs administration in the Graduate School of Counseling and Education. Doctor Gonzalez most recently came from Harvey Mudd College, an institution within the Claremont Colleges consortium where she served as the vice president for student affairs as well as the program director and faculty member at the Claremont Graduate University. Her research interests are focused on first generation students, immigrant students, equity and diversity, higher education policy and governance, student affairs administration, and higher education finance.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:23]:
A 1st generation college student who immigrated to the US at the age of 10, doctor G graduated from Loyola Marymount University with a bachelor's degree in international business. She earned her master's in doctoral degrees, both in education, from Claremont Graduate University. Anna, welcome to SA Voices.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:01:40]:
Hi. How are you doing, Jill?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:42]:
I'm so glad to be speaking with you. We are spread wide apart on the globe today with you calling in from Hawaii, and I am currently sitting in Paris, France. So we appreciate the accommodation of the time zone action.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:01:54]:
This is fantastic. This is how our world is now, actually. We are global at all kinds of time zones, so it's fantastic.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:02]:
And I think fairly representative of how NASPA's growing too anyway.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:02:06]:
I definitely believe so. I think so. We'll definitely see it at the conference too.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:09]:
Well, we've made a tradition out of interviewing the incoming NASPA board chair since Chris and I started collaborating on the show. So I believe you are the 5th board chair that we've had the pleasure of having on the show to talk about your transition, but this is the 1st time that our season has been themed to transitions while the board chair transition was happening. So we're we're right on point today.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:02:33]:
That's great. And I love the theme. I think that's perfect in terms of my life and my career, so I love it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:39]:
We've had probably the most outpouring of support for this particular theme. It's the 1st time we're ever doing a double season on the theme because so many people relate to the stories of transition that we've been sharing. And so I'm hoping yours will also be one that people can relate to today. We always like to start kind of with a big open question, though, which is, how did you get to your current seat? And that could be either as board chair or at WashU or both and or anywhere else in between.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:03:06]:
Well, I'll talk a little bit. I think about the WashU transition, and then I'll actually go into my job I mean, my NASPA chairmanship. The WASHI transition was something that happened. I was not looking for a change. I was at Harvey Mudd, small college, university, about 900 students in Southern California where I'm from, and I graduated from the Claremont Colleges. And so I thought I would stay there forever. The pandemic happened, which was a big transition for all of us globally, and I was, one of the people in charge of transitioning through the pandemic and afterwards. And I think that really gave me pause and thought of as the as I learned about the position at WashU, am I ready to go back to an in person with in a small school, which I loved, or am I ready to think about a bigger challenge in terms of the number of students in the middle of the country where there were so many things happening where the issue of my vote would matter.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:04:08]:
My my vote would matter in California, but I think my vote would matter more in the middle of the country at a place like Missouri. And I decided that I was ready for another transition. I survived. At times, I even weirdly thrived during the pandemic, and so I thought I had one more big oomph to give back to the higher education community as well as my own passions for being engaged in communities outside of higher ed, some were different, and so I decided to take the plunge and transition to WashU. My transition to NASH was so fascinating. I've been into organization active since, I think, 1994 when I was a new professional. Never thought I would be the NASPA chair. A lot of people say that.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:04:51]:
I never thought that. I never thought that's gonna be me, in large part because the people who I saw who were chairs didn't look like me. I think they were almost all male at that time and white. And so that just was this didn't seem like a place for me. I also worked at a cross cultural center. So I was in multicultural affairs. Loved, loved, loved it and, again, never saw people like me in those roles. And then people like Lori White, Doris Ching, and others started taking on this role of leading our wonderful organization.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:05:23]:
And that's when I thought, oh, it can happen. It can happen to someone with similar experiences like me. And over time, I decided to, I was nominated for different, leadership roles at NASPA. I also volunteered for others and eventually transitioned to this role.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:39]:
Would you mind sharing some of your identities since this is an audio only podcast? And you mentioned not being able to see yourself represented, it'd be great if you'd be willing to share who you are in that space.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:05:49]:
Oh, thanks so much, Jill. Yes. I'm born in the Philippines, so Filipino by birth. I always tell people culturally, my family, just the way we grew up, was so much connected with both Filipino, East Asian, and actually Chicano identities, being where I was in Southern she, her. Grew up as 1st gen limited income and went through college, really. 1st gen limited income through all that went to a significant part. And then I immigrated, so an immigrant to the United States as well.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:30]:
That's a lot of transitions. How have your transitions of identity being in your country of birth for a little while and then coming to the United States at kind of a younger age, how has that experience and that transition impacted your worldview on higher education?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:06:46]:
I first came to the United States, I told people and, oh, actually, we were at that time, I guess, we were undocumented too and didn't really have an understanding of that. Right? So as a child coming to United States, they didn't wanna tell people why we were coming. Right? That was a whole danger to that. So there had to be lots of secrecy. And so we literally were told we're just gonna go on this trip or a vacation to see the rest of our family again and be reunited with my parents. And so we went on a plane, came as immigrants, as young children, 10 and 6, my brother and I, and didn't really know. We were made to feel safe by our immediate family. We all lived together, my uncles and aunts.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:07:23]:
I think it was 17 people in a 3 bedroom house for a while even when we first came. Yeah.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:29]:
That's crowded.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:07:30]:
It was kinda crowded, but, you know, it was kind of a big summer party. Right? But, yes, it was crowded. I think the adults probably felt it more than the children. And so it was wonderful to grow up with cousins and my grandmother, in particular, who really took care of us, and she made such a significant impact in my life. And so went through that, and I remember not knowing. But I remember my aunts and, like, would always say, don't tell people about how you came here. Like, you just came, and we never talked about paper or being legal. It was when I first wanted to work that they said you can't get a job when I was in in my teens.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:08:02]:
Other people could start working, and they couldn't get a permit. And I remember oh my gosh. And then there was the amnesty that both Republicans and Democrats came together back in the day in 19 eighties, and they actually passed an amnesty for people like me who were in the country for a significant period of time, who were able to get to that whole transition of all of a sudden ruining the shadows to, I have my paper. And what did that green that that green card mean was hugely significant and transformative for my family, but we were doing the same things. We were obeying the laws. We were working. Everyone was working. Right? Paying taxes, actually.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:08:38]:
Right? Some of them were working in offices. And then all of a sudden, you get this green card and you get this sense of relief. But, really, I thought that was just the weirdest thing. At at 15 and 16, I remember thinking, this is weird, that that somehow that 1 piece of paper by 1 act would change our whole life when we were living and doing the same things. I

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:58]:
think that's such an important story within student affairs because we talk so much about supporting our students through their journey for documentation or journey for, you know, financial aid that those stories are also amongst us in the profession.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:09:19]:
Yeah. And I didn't really know how to talk about it. I actually learned a lot from students and staff who I work with who are undocumented and or who are DACA, and they're so brave. And I remember that they talk about it. They advocate for rights, and I just honor that. I honor their experiences. It it's similar to mine, but I didn't know how to voice it or talk about it until I listened to their stories.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:43]:
Did you move towards citizenship after your green card?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:09:45]:
Yes. That took a while because I actually wasn't sure. So that one, my family let us make the choice, which I love my dad and my mom, and I I love my family for allowing us as children. Right? We were still under 18 to make that choice for ourselves. But so I didn't become a citizen until after I could vote until, gosh, I was already a full time staff member. I really had to think about it and what that would mean for me. And finally, it was about voting, and I wanted to vote. It was important, and it was actually at a time when a lot of propositions in California were trying to take away rights, like affirmative action, like services to undocumented peoples, and even really immigrants in California that was happening.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:10:25]:
And so I thought, you know what? I need to become a citizen so I can vote.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:29]:
Tell us about that transition from being a green cardholder to being able to have that right to vote.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:10:34]:
Oh my gosh. You know, the privilege that you get as a citizen of the United States, the the privilege to vote, it is a right and a privilege, I have to say, but also like traveling. Many places that I could go to I remember I worked for a semester at sea. I took 4 voyages, a semester at sea, and some people had to get visas and other things. And I was like, oh, there's all these countries where if you're a US citizen, you don't have to do any of that. I'm like, oh my gosh. What's that mean? Or being asked questions showing documentation. I could say, yes, I was not born in the United States, but I could show them my passport, and it was like a big easy check.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:11:06]:
And so there was definitely a lot of privilege that I felt that I never take for granted because I used to not have that. And so I always honor that, and I I try to be a good citizen, I think. So

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:18]:
I think as American citizens, we often don't have the awareness that, you know, we hold I think it's right now the 7th most powerful passport in the world. There are quite a few ahead now, but that has to do with, you know, being able to enter other nations without applying for a visa or paying for a visa or simply just being allowed access instead of being denied think, puts us in an interesting position.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:11:46]:
Yes. It does. It really does. And I'm not sure we talk about this as much as we should in terms of even in higher education or in other places that we should talk about. Is what does that mean for us, the great responsibility that we should think about having the citizenship. There's the privilege, but also this great responsibility that we need to, like, discuss and really engage in and own, and we need to own it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:09]:
Let's talk more about responsibility, which is your NASPA board chairship. Every time we've had on a NASPA board chair, the one big theme that I can draw a line through each of you is that you're really occupying a space of stewardship for the organization rather than driving a personal agenda forward. And I think that's a big shift that happened when NASA shifted from electing a president to electing a board chair. But I'm wondering if you can talk about what you're hoping, the board you will lead will be able to achieve across the next year.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:12:40]:
I think that's a great question. I've been thinking a lot. You know, when I ran from NASPA board chair for the listeners, I'll remind them that I ran on 3 things. I still am thinking about that. But the first is, and it is not in any order, healthy excellence. That means in terms of, like, what does well-being look like for our profession and not just the students. Right? We love the students, but this one is more us. This is more us as practitioners.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:13:03]:
It's time for us to think about how do we thrive in our roles, which I love, given all my work life in NASPA in term and student affairs, right, in terms of this is my profession, has always just been. I chose to be in it. But how do we thrive and be healthy, and how do we think of well-being when we have events that we go to? I mean, when you go to a national conference, it's like, oh, yay. 6 AM till, like, 2 AM. Right? Some people go that route. That is not healthy. You know? And and what does that mean? What does that look like? So even things like that. I really want us to engage in our work, in what we do, both the organization and our profession.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:13:40]:
I think the second one is of the mid level. That is our largest as a constituent single constituent. It is the largest membership of our organization. And what does a mid level mean? What competencies? And to break that group down further, right, into, like a mid level could be someone 7 years and someone, like, 28 years in the profession. And I think that's a huge, big gap. And so what does that look like, and how do we both break that down a little bit, and how do we honor the mid level. Right? People are wanna sometimes they're like, I'm happy where I'm at, but I wanna gain different skills. I wanna continue having an amazing life in the work that I do, but what does that mean? But some people in the mid level wanna be like, I wanna become a vice president or I wanna become president.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:14:24]:
Right? And what does that mean? Mid level also for me transitions. Do I stay in the field? Do I leave the field? Right? I think that's where we really have to engage our folks. So mid level for me is huge. And then the 3rd piece is and it's so important now is why higher education.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:38]:
Yeah. That's a big one for the US.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:14:40]:
It is. And the impact of higher education, the impact of student affairs in the purpose of students' lives, in young people's lives, and in countries in the civic health of our nation? And I think the answer is higher education. And I think student affairs is actually the the big the change agent and the why of higher ed. I think it's what we do and what we, as professionals, teach our students. And so those are my big three for NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:08]:
Let's touch back on that midlevel piece because I think a lot about to the transitions that can feel very, very large in the midlevel from assistant director to associate director to director to perhaps senior executive director. Each of those levels within the midlevel carry their own transitions, their own responsibility differences, and their own growth. So we I think we tend to look at the mid level as a little bit of a bigger monolith than perhaps it actually is within student affairs. I think it's probably you know, there's smaller pieces within it. But what are you hoping for those mid level professionals

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:15:49]:
chunk, but we just call them 1 big, big level. Like, the mid level institute. Okay. That gives literally anyone. I mean, what does that actually mean? And so you I wanna make sure that we'd look at the breakdown of what what that is. And what does that mean for NASPA? I think it's being more intentional, not looking at the size of an event, but saying, you know what? We're gonna have mid level based on up to 10 years of experience, and that's gonna be a smaller group, and that's okay. Right? And we're going to look at the competencies that you need based on that versus, like, the competencies that you need. If you were a director executive director mid level, but only with with 12 years experience, but that's completely different than the previous group.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:16:32]:
So it's gonna have to it's gonna have to be that our association, our board, our regions, and even our divisions have to look critically at what we're doing for the mid level because we have lumped them too big, I think. And so it's just like, oh, the mid level. And that's, like, kinda the catchall. It shouldn't be the catchall.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:48]:
And some of our mid level professionals don't supervise other professionals but supervise students. Some of our mid level professionals supervise large teams, which can include professionals, graduate students, and undergraduate students. It's it's a wide band. And I think my one major complaint with our development as professionals really throughout my entire career is that there's really a lack of education on how to be a strong supervisor. And if you wanna go find that work, you really have to seek it for yourself, and I'd really love to see us develop more of that for our professionals anyway.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:17:21]:
I agree. That's great. See, me too. I'm excited. Gonna jump on the bandwagon. Let let's do this. I Let's go. Let's go.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:17:27]:
Let's go. I love it. I think it's if I could really leave anything the mid level is the big question, and I just wanna make sure. I walk around NASPA, and I'm like, you're a mid level. You're a mid level. You're a mid level. And what does that mean?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:41]:
Yeah. Absolutely. You also mentioned health and well-being as a priority, for our profession. I think that I've been seeing a real slide in terms of balance or integration with work life as of late. We did okay for some, but not for others in the pandemic. And now that we're coming out the other side, it feels like budgets are, you know, constantly being squeezed. People are being asked to do more with less or more people to jobs for the same amount of pay. So how are you hoping to promote that well-being knowing that there's a there you know, let's name it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:15]:
There's been of a bit of a morale hit to the profession as of late.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:18:19]:
Yes. No. I agree. It's I think it was already happening definitely before the pandemic. I think it got exacerbated during the pandemic, and it's still here. I told someone, it's not necessarily the money that you throw at people in terms of making them satisfied at their position. The way that things are, I I get it. If you're an entry level, it's not you're not gonna get 6 figures your 1st year.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:18:42]:
I mean, that's not and even for many, it's not gonna be that way necessarily for for a while.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:47]:
Or possibly ever in this profession. Yeah.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:18:49]:
Right. Or possibly ever. Thank you. Like, thanks for saying that. And at the end of the day, even if that were that's not necessarily the only thing that's gonna give people job satisfaction. It is being noted for the good work that we do. It doesn't help when you turn on the news and the newspapers, and you're, like, working so hard. You're a resident you're a RCD.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:19:13]:
You just stayed up all night helping save a student's life. You know you made an impact, and then you turn on the news and you have people say, let's close down colleges and universities. Like, okay. No. Don't do that. Right? They just did something great. That doesn't help either to work in a field where people are saying they don't trust you. So one is, like, how do we honor and celebrate our staff, our our fantastic staff members.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:19:36]:
Right? And we have fantastic staff members. I think too is how do we engage it so that the work doesn't become routine? Because there is a boredom factor to it. It's like the same old, same old. I'm not saying necessarily we're gonna make up a new job for someone, but how does it become exciting? How do we make sure that our staff equitably get opportunities to serve, for example, on different committees? So once it you know, so one day, it'll be your turn to serve on a building project. How exciting is that to be the capital projects? Not necessarily just people with titles. There's gonna be opportunities for everyone in different ways. And, also, because one day, they may wanna become director of housing, and you really can't be director of housing without having some kind of capital experience. Or how do we get a staff member to even rotationally supervise other staff? Because we can't make up staff members.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:20:27]:
I get it. But instead of them supervising an undergrad, can we say, hey. This year, you're the one that's gonna supervise the graduate students to get more of that experience? Those are the things. And then, also, what kind of benefits, childcare benefits can we give our staff? Tuition benefits. Not every school does tuition benefits. Partner benefits. You know? Kind of we gotta think creatively to get people noted that these are difficult and transformative jobs and that we need to invest in our people.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:55]:
Absolutely. I think one of the most radical things that I've seen happen as of late is, you know, the the state of Washington has their overtime laws that have gone into effect, which I'm very, very pro. And those laws, even for salaried employees, have limits on how many hours you can work per month, but it's requiring those institutions to redefine what a salaried employee is expected to do, and I think that's really good for the field.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:21:19]:
Yep. I agree. And, also, the other piece, it's on us too. How do we allow ourselves? How do how do I, vice chancellor, like, just tell people it's okay to not check email every day? Sometimes sometimes I I'll talk for myself. I do that. Right? I check it constantly. And one time, I got really sick, and and I did not check it at all because I just couldn't. I couldn't physically check it.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:21:42]:
It would not have been good for me to check it. And then it was fine. The job was fine. My students thrived. It was 2 or 3 days of just really barely, like, looking at my email and barely were really not working. And I realized, okay. Wait a second. It's gonna be okay.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:21:56]:
So it's also teaching ourselves. Give ourselves grace, and we're not gonna work we're not gonna make ourselves work and think work 20 4/7.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:03]:
And that really comes straight from the top. It has to start with your president empowering your vice chancellor, vice president to do that, and your vice chancellor, vice president really saying, hey. This is the culture we're gonna set for the organization.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:22:15]:
I love it. Unless there's an absolute emergency, my boss does not send this email. So, like, he came in to WashU, and he talked about how he doesn't expect he's not going himself going to do, like, email past a certain time. Like, I wasn't there when it happened, but people talk about that. And it really shifted something, like, past 5 or 6 or, you know, not on weekends. It's fantastic. And I thought it was really sharing a vulnerability for him to talk about the fact that he has a life, and he has a family, and that's important.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:40]:
And now the 3rd priority you mentioned was really anchoring into the value of higher education. And I think one of the most important things that NASPA does is advocacy in Washington, DC. So I'll give a shout out to the public policy division and also Diana Ali, who is the policy person with one of the policy people, anyway, within NASBA as well as Jill Dunlap. And they do some incredible work to track all sorts of state policies that are impacting higher education. We just saw a weird bill in Utah that is kind of mirroring what had been going on in Florida, which is also wild to me because I don't understand how it's not being challenged as a violation of the First Amendment in more intense ways right now, but that's a whole other conversation. But I'm wondering, Anna, how you envision NASPA telling the story of higher education or advocating for the value in your year as board chair.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:23:31]:
No. I think that's great. I you know, I think for me, there's several things that we need to do. The importance of the why of college, one of the reasons why I went to college was to help transform my family's future. Right? And, yes, it is about jobs and careers. One of the big reasons that I went to college. I think if I told my dad I was going to go to college, but not really sure what that would mean, he would have been like, wait. We're gonna pulling in all our money to have you go, see how you do so that the rest of your cousins and your brother could go.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:23:57]:
And you're not really sure why your our time and our talent and your time and your money is not gonna I'm like, it would have been unfathomable for my family and for my my background. So I think the why is one of them is the kinds of careers and opportunities for people because of their college degree. When you graduate from college versus when you don't, the wealth accumulation over time, the opportunities is greater. I mean, that is one of the things. But it's not about your major in terms of what your career is going to be. It is about the things that student affairs also does. Right? It's not just one thing. It's about the leadership training that we give them, the empathy that we teach them through experiential things, like being a club and organization president is one way.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:24:42]:
Communication skills that we teach them. Right? We engage them to think of differences, like what we have at WashU, dialogue across differences. And what does that mean? To dialogue with someone is something that we in student affairs engage and teach them to live with someone from a completely different background and then to be able to share. Sharing is caring. And then to think about your well-being, right, in different ways. The things that we teach in student affairs allows for an individual to go through college and learn those skills and to be an amazing leader outside in the world, to look at their careers in profound ways. Not just, I'm just gonna work and get my pay, but I'm gonna work. I'm gonna transform.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:25:24]:
I'm gonna be a leader. I'm gonna be engaged in community. And a lot of that is because of the 4 years or so that we have taught them in colleges, whether it's a 2 year college or a 4 year college or even, you know, doctoral programs. Right? So I think that we hold the key, and we don't talk about, we don't share those stories. I think student affairs, we are so humble, and we make sure that we lift up our students. But in doing so, I think we've forgotten to lift up the profession itself and explain what we do. We need to explain what we do. I don't think that we should celebrate the fact that our own parents don't know what we do.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:26:00]:
My parents don't know what I do. Right? Right? And we and we, yeah, and we laugh, and we celebrate it. Like, this is that career, and it's like, no. That's not good. People know what other people do. We should talk about what we do.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:10]:
And I think I'd be one of the very first to say that the degree is important, but it doesn't define the future as much as some of the soft skills do. I think I've shared on the show before, but my bachelor's degree is in music performance, and it's not something that I anchor into daily for the skills that I need in my job.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:26:27]:
I should have you sing for us, though. Yeah. I'll be sending.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:31]:
Well, I'll share kind of a secret. If you look hard enough, you can find me singing on TikTok and YouTube. But you have to look really hard, and it's not under my real name.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:26:41]:
It's kinda funny. I mean, I don't really use those 2 apps as much, but okay. What is that?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:47]:
What was your bachelor's in honor?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:26:49]:
International visits, actually. And I and I'd use those skills that I learned today. I've always used it. I've learned so many things about balance sheets and what matters. And it's funny because when I say that, it's not necessarily that money matters. It's actually what matters in terms of the values that you put into time and treasure. And so that's what I learned. But so I utilize it a lot in my in my daily work, but I'm not in a business career.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:27:15]:
Does that if that makes sense?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:17]:
Are there any words of wisdom, wishes, or thoughts that you'd like to share with the NASPA membership in general?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:27:24]:
Someone I learned this as a faculty member from a participant at the last APIDA Leadership Institute. And I wanna say, I remember this person said, and I wish I would I could know who it is, but I wanna honor the person who who said this. She said someone told her once to fall in love with her staff, and I've been thinking about that a lot. And for me, for my words of wisdom would be fall in love with the field. Remember why you chose it because we chose this field, and fall in love with it. And if you're thinking that, you know, I'm having a really hard time right now. I fell in love with it once, but I'm thinking of a breakup or a break. That's okay.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:28:05]:
But then find support and help about that and think through, do you stay with it, which is fine. Do you leave it, which is also fine. But if you're gonna stay with it, learn, and relearn how to fall in love with it. Because for me, that's what helped me thrive every day. For some of us, falling in love with it means really loving our student. But for others, it really is the actual work, itself. And so whatever it is, remember it and fall in love with it again because that's ultimately what's gonna keep you engaged and thriving in this profession.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:37]:
It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:43]:
Thanks so much, Joe. Glad to be back in the NASPA world. And this week, I wanna share a few policy updates that we've heard from our policy division at NASPA. Many of you may have heard that president Biden has issued another continuing resolution keeping the government funded through March. And so at this point, Congress has not reached a compromise to formalize a spending bill for the 2023 fiscal year. For the 2023 fiscal year, as funding expired at the end of September, the Department of Education held negotiated rulemaking sessions on federal Title IX program integrity, and institutional quality and trio eligibility in the month of January. During the subcommittee session on program funding funding involving funding connected to student meal plans and including books and supplies costs as a part of tuition and fees. Several members of the trio subcommittee expressed reservations about expanding eligibility for college prep trio programs to undocumented students due to tenuous political climate due to the tenuous political climate.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:58]:
NASPA believes that extending trio programs to undocumented students is an important step in setting a federal precedent for equitable college access. The Office of Postsecondary Education is seeking comments from institutions on effective strategies for college student mental health and substance use and substance use disorders. This request includes how higher education institutions have transformed campus cultures with inclusive support strategies, how state agencies have supported behavioral health, identified challenges in implementing solutions, and information to guide future work of the Department of Education. Comments are due by February 25th. The Department of Education has also issued a request for information to assess sexual violence on campus. The RFI seeks responses on best practices for sexual assault prevention and response in education in educational institution in educational institutions. Topics include forming response teams, providing survivor resources, preventing and responding to sexual and dating violence, developing sex education and staff training programs, culturally responsive support approaches, engaging communities in prevention efforts and federal support of these initiatives. Comments are due by March 11th.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:18]:
Finally, the Biden administration has highlighted key topical issues in relation to priorities for the 2024 presidential election year. Earlier this month marked the 51st the 51st anniversary of Roe v Wade in and the White House and the White House task force on reproductive health care access released a fact sheet on new actions to increase contraception care coverage. This includes a continued stance that the administration will support the FDA the FDA approval of medication abortion, which is currently which is under current scrutiny by the Supreme Court. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit, where do you wanna give back. Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:46]:
I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that, Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association, and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:19]:
Chris, we always appreciate you sharing what's going on in and around in NASPA. And, Anna, we have reached our lightning round, so I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. Are you ready to roll?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:30]:
I'm ready.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:30]:
Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:36]:
Beyonce's new song.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:37]:
Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:40]:
A doctor.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:41]:
Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:43]:
Doris Ching.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:45]:
Number 4, your essential student affairs read.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:47]:
Oh my gosh. It is Elizabeth Witt's The Tapestry, the Culture book that I can't remember the actual title, but love, love, love that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:55]:
Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:58]:
Oh my goodness. That is a good one. Is it awful to say Dexter?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:03]:
Everyone had their thing. That was a that was a time in our lives. Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:34:11]:
I think this one, actually. I did. I'm not a I have to say I'm not a podcast person, but I was like, I'm gonna listen to this one because this is my field.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:19]:
We appreciate that. And then finally, number seven, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:34:24]:
Oh, just saying hi to personal is my family. Thank you so much for your support. I appreciate you. And then my professional, my chosen NASPA family, you are all amazing. I love you all, and I can't wait to see you at all the future events conferences, including my speech when I take the gavel at NASPA in Seattle.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:42]:
Anna, we know you're gonna have an incredibly busy year ahead, but if anyone in the membership would like to reach you personally, how can they find you?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:34:49]:
Oh, sure. They can actually go into my social media, Instagram, AKGonzales 327, and also my email, anna.gonzales, with a z at the end, atwustl, w u s t l, dotedu.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:01]:
Anna, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Thank you. This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at essay voices at NASPA .org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:34]:
We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support support

In this season of the SA Voices From The Field Podcast, we had the privilege of delving deep into the world of job placement and career development in higher education with D'Najah Thomas, a dynamic figure leading The Placement Exchange (TPE). Her insights reveal a holistic and innovative approach to connecting talent with opportunity in student affairs.

Transitions in Student Affairs: A Modern

Take It's no secret that the job market in higher education has undergone significant shifts, particularly with the advent of virtual platforms. Thomas brings a refreshing perspective to the conversation, emphasizing the need for psychological safety and well-being during the job search. As TPE adapts to an increasingly digital landscape, it prioritizes mental health by advocating for scheduled breaks and creating virtual lounges for decompression—a much-needed change welcomed by both candidates and employers.

The Crafting of TPE's Identity

Thomas's journey to the directorship at TPE wasn't a conventional one. With a background in marketing, public relations, and a stint in the non-profit sector, she found herself drawn to the world of student affairs through a combination of chance, economic circumstances, and personal choices—highlighting that a nonlinear career path can lead to fulfilling leadership roles.

Her diverse professional experience, enhanced by her empathy and commitment to supporting others, is now channeled into redefining TPE as a central hub for career development. She envisions TPE as a platform that not only facilitates job matching but also serves as a resource for continuous professional growth.

Empowering Job Seekers and Recruiters

Thomas is keen on equipping job seekers with tools for self-advocacy and proactive searching. TPE's year-round job board and the on-demand TPE Academy sessions affirm her resolve to meet modern job seekers where they are. Similarly, she encourages employers to highlight their values and culture authentically, showing that recruiting in student affairs must evolve beyond mere job advertising to a more strategic and narrative-driven approach.

Looking Ahead: A Future of Innovation and Inclusivity

 With initiatives like TPE Talks addressing hot topics in employment and the WRAP Session focusing on diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility, TPE is broadening its impact beyond job placement. Thomas reimagines a future where TPE continually adapts to uphold a vibrant, healthy, and diverse workforce in student affairs.

Thomas's work with TPE exemplifies strategic transformation driven by understanding and meeting the needs of its community. The focus on accessibility, storytelling, and mental health showcases TPE's commitment to harmonizing candidate and employer expectations within an evolving digital world.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]:
Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Hey, essay voices. We've got a really awesome episode for you today all about the placement exchange or TPE for short. So I'm pleased to welcome D'Najah Pendergrass Thomas, sheher, who is a practitioner and whose work is centered around organizational behavior with a focus on recruitment, professional development, and career advancement. She's committed to helping organizations and communities bring about transformational change in these areas. And currently, she is serving as the director of the placement exchange, which is also a partnership of AUCHO-I and NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:53]:
In this world, Inesha works directly and closely with a planning committee of professionals from across the field of higher education and student affairs to drive equitable and inclusive practice and innovation to deliver transformative networking communities, knowledge resources, job search, and recruiting experiences that cultivate and sustain a diverse and robust workforce in higher education. Before coming to TPE, D'Najah worked for 9 years in residence life and housing. Prior to that, she served as a marketing and communications practitioner in the nonprofit sector with Goodwill Industries of Southern Piedmont, The Florida Bar, and The Florida Psychological Association. D'Najah is past president of North Carolina Housing Officers or NCHO, and she also served in other leadership roles with NCHO and the Southeastern Association of Housing Officers or SEHO. She was a 2018 participant in NASPA's Mid Managers Institute and served as faculty for SEHO's 2021 regional entry institute or RELI. D'Najah also finished her term with a Kujo AI's 2021, 22 Leadership Academy cohort. A native of Charlotte, North Carolina, D'Naisha holds a master's of divinity from Duke Divinity School, a master of science in sport management from Florida State University, and a bachelor of science in public relations from Appalachian State University in Boone, North Carolina. Whether you are a candidate looking for a job this year or thinking about looking for a job this year or an employer who has an entry to mid senior level job to post, this episode, I hope, will be a wonderful resource for you so you can learn a little bit more about how the placement exchange process has grown and changed over time.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:27]:
Don't miss this one. Hope you enjoy our conversation. D'Najah, welcome to SA Voices.

D'Najah Thomas [00:02:33]:
Thank you for having me. I am excited to be here.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:36]:
I'm really thrilled to help you have you on the season at this moment in time, especially in our theme of transitions in your role at TPE, I think that you personally hold a lot of keys to success for people in the profession. And especially given the changes that are happening in TPE right now, it's a great time to talk about all of the things. But before we talk about all of the TPE things, I'd love to get to know you a little bit better because you've had some interesting transitions in your career as well from housing professional and, I believe, training as an attorney to the TPE space now. So tell us about you.

D'Najah Thomas [00:03:10]:
I was an attorney. It's not quite that exciting, but I will tell you a little bit about what I've done before coming to TPE. My background is actually actually in marketing and public relations. So I did undergraduate work in North Carolina with great dreams of working for an NFL team. I thought that I would travel and do on-site communication and public relations. And so that led me to get a master's in sport management at Florida State University down in Tallahassee, Florida. And then that program was my 1st interaction with student athletes. And so while working on my degree, I worked with at risk student athletes in academic services.

D'Najah Thomas [00:03:45]:
And I had the luxury of graduating in 2008, which if anyone can remember, was the recession. And so I humbly took my brand new master's degree home to North Carolina and started searching for a job. And so I spent a good bit of time volunteering while looking for work simply because my mom, as an educator, was of the background. You get stuck in your own head when you're looking for a job and you can get discouraged. And she suggested that I volunteer. And so I volunteered like it was a full time job and landed in non profit work, particularly crisis support services in North Carolina. And to be transparent, if you live in the South, particularly North Carolina, it is, still called the Bible Belt. It's deeply steep in religion, particularly working in crisis support.

D'Najah Thomas [00:04:27]:
The questions were typically existential. How did this happen? Why could this happen to me? Oftentimes, how could a god be god allow this to happen to me? And in the course of serving people, I thought I will either get a master's in counseling or maybe a master's in divinity. And I chose the route of divinity school and so I landed at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina. And they mentioned this opportunity to be a graduate hall director while in the program. And so I thought anything that will help me save money on the cost of this degree is going to be a wonderful opportunity. And so I landed in residence life and housing as a grad hall director while working on my master's of divinity. And so during the 3 years that I spent at Duke, I realized that college students were amazing. They are complex.

D'Najah Thomas [00:05:09]:
They have great demand. They are extremely diverse, and they were very much and are very much looking for a relationship, mentorship, and support. And so as a grad student, I found they liked me a little better than the professional coordinator because grad students are where they wanna be. They're gonna graduate and they wanna get master's and doctoral degrees. And so, residents and RAs alike would just hang out in my apartment. I would host programming for them, all while working on this master's of divinity. And my 3rd year in divinity school, a full time position opened. And I was eligible because I had the previous master's and so I did what I honestly would not recommend to anyone.

D'Najah Thomas [00:05:44]:
I worked full time on that last year and stayed a full time student because I just didn't wanna pass up the opportunity to be able to get the position at Duke. And so that is how I landed full time in student affairs. I was a resident life coordinator at Duke University. And so stayed in Durham for about 5 years and moved on to Wake Forest as an assistant director, staying in residence life and housing. Had the joy working under doctor Kitty Ryu, who was a great leader and really believed in what we were trying to do in Residence Life and Housing. She's NASPA famous. She is NASPA famous and rightfully so. And so in my the 1st year and a half in my role, we actually did a full reorg in our department.

D'Najah Thomas [00:06:21]:
We did not have full time residence hall coordinators. And so in the spring of 2019, we fully reorgued, went to TBE in LA, and bought on 7 new full time live in staff members, which was pretty important because halfway through their 1st year the pandemic happened. And we recognized that had we not had full time staff living in, there's just no way we would have survived supporting students, in the ways that we needed to. And so the next part I shared transparently because I think it matters with how I work with PPE and how I approach talking about career trajectory with people. I got pregnant and had a pre work for baby in the middle of the pandemic. And so, residence life and housing was very demanding at that time and work and life just were not meshing. And so, I had to start to look for other opportunities and very regrettably didn't wanna have to leave residence life and housing, but knew, you know, you have to make some life choices. And so the position with CPE opened up and I thought, gosh, this will be a wonderful opportunity to help meet our field at a place that was a point of crisis.

D'Najah Thomas [00:07:18]:
Right? Trying to retain staff in the middle of the pandemic. Campuses were triaging vacancies everywhere. And it would give me the flexibility to think about what I needed to do to be a mom to a brand new baby. And so I applied, interviewed, and in about 6 weeks found myself in the role as Director of the Placement Exchange. And so I bring to the role a little bit of nonprofit work, a little bit of student athletics work, and a whole lot of housing and residents' life experience coupled with supervision, hiring, and retention.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:45]:
That's an incredible journey, and especially to an organization like TPE where you can keep a lot of the skills you learned in your on campus experience by also bringing your nonprofit based experience. And I'm realizing now where I accidentally referenced an attorneyship, and it's because you were working with The Florida Bar as well as Florida Psychological Association. And so with all of those experiences kind of creating a melange of things for you, what is life like now given that you're serving professionals instead of students?

D'Najah Thomas [00:08:15]:
Life is amazing. Part of my work with TPE has really helped me solidify what I work with candidates around, which is understanding your story, your values, and your overall professional goal. And so when I look back at my career, I think the thread that ties it all together is relationships and investing in the success of others. And so for a while, that was student athletes. Before that, that was in the sports arena, that transition to serving people in the nonprofit world, coming back to my students at Duke, and then becoming a supervisor, particularly being very invested in the career trajectory of those that I supervise. And so, now I find myself with TPE being able to concentrate and be less of a generalist, but to spend so much time thinking about how to support the goals and the career trajectory of both who are doing work that I love so much. And so now my days are are filled with understanding what's coming out of SHRM and coming out of corporate HR and following trends on our campus and in our field and thinking about how TPE can now, in essence, be a career hub for the profession. How can we say to practitioners that this is your career trajectory? PPE is where you can come to develop the skill, review this resource, engage in the support so that you can continue to be a knowledgeable and competent and competitive candidate? And on the other side of that coin is how can we say to employers recruiting, retention, and advancement of staff really is a free market.

D'Najah Thomas [00:09:42]:
Meaning, they've got a set of skills and a salary they're looking for, and you now have to showcase how you are a place that people want to work at, and that the package you have to to offer is competitive. And so, how do you look at your efforts around recruiting, and interviewing, and hiring, and onboarding, and retaining staff, such that when you sit down with a candidate, you can say, This isn't just any assistant director role. The assistant director role on this campus is going to provide you with these opportunities, support you in this way such that you don't wanna walk away from this opportunity. So that is how everything I do is centered. How do we really equip these practitioners? And then how do we empower employers to see themselves as great places to work and be able to really share that with candidates in the process?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:24]:
Now TPE is short for the placement exchange. I think it's its own living acronym. Now people just kinda know what it means if you've been in the field for a hot minute. But it's also a joint partnership of Akuhoai and NASPA and also serves as a hub for professionals who are not affiliated with either of those organizations as people search for student affairs in higher ed positions. What is the experience of a candidate today who's utilizing TPE?

D'Najah Thomas [00:10:52]:
Sure. I hope that the profession as a whole. It experience even though we are serving the profession as a whole. It has expanded. We now have a job board that is 20 fourseven, three sixty five. So I hope people aren't up in the middle of night. You feel the urge at midnight, you can go to the job board and look for that next job. If you do that on the weekends or whatever that looks like for your schedule, it's available.

D'Najah Thomas [00:11:22]:
And it's got the features that now allow you to upload your profile and resume at a level of comfort. So it can be fully visible by employers who are looking to hire. It can be one level down, which is what we call confidential, in that they can see the content of your resume, but not your identifying information. But if I were to message you as an employer and you choose to do so, you can then disclose who you are. Or it can be fully private, meaning it's there and as you see an employer that you may have interest in, you can share that resource with them. That's something that has been added on since what we've been known for. The once a year in person week of interviewing that happened the week before NASPA. So I appreciate now that we recognize, right, people are looking for a job 365 days a year.

D'Najah Thomas [00:12:02]:
We cannot make people wait until March to get their next job. So being able to offer the job board with some customizable options for candidates is something that we're really proud of. The other thing that I'm really proud of for candidates, and I hope they would say they are appreciating, is how we've taken the TPE Academy and really tried to make it more accessible for the year round experience. So it used to be being a part of the academy was from November to March, it was much more like a mentorship experience and culminated being in person. Now we create the sessions on demand and candidates can go to the YouTube channel and access any one of those 6 sessions. Right? So again, at a time that works for you, whether it's October, February, or April, you can have access to those resources in a way that your lifestyle and fits your schedule. So again, just thinking about the things that used to be centered around that once a year experience and expanding those to be accessible anytime a candidate would need that. We still keep our Candidate Development Subcommittee and so we still offer those year round webinars.

D'Najah Thomas [00:13:00]:
And what I appreciate about those sessions is they don't feel very stiff and structured. The content is there but our presenters and speakers are very engaging and the pace still allows for question and answer, learning opportunities, almost like a workshop. Like, we may pause you and have you do an activity, do some reflection, and engage. And so we are still trying to make sure that we serve on a larger scale to everyone who may need us, but not without having that personal experience and that interpersonal connection that we've been known for.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:30]:
So the addition of the psychological safety piece, I think, is incredibly important from a candidate experience, especially knowing that there's a lot of reasons that someone might not be able to share with their current employer that they're looking or maybe they just don't want to. That's also fine. I also really appreciate the expansion of the academy and this on demand element because it really is meeting candidates where they're at in the modern era of search. So for those who are listening who may be newer in the profession, my 1st job experience job hunting experience in student affairs was at TPE in the year that ACPA and NASPA were last combined for a joint conference. That thing was bananas. I think I did 45 to 60 interviews in 3 days. I had a pair of extra tennis shoes in my bag. I had physical thank you notes with me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:21]:
There were candidate physical Dropbox mailbox systems that were just organized but chaotic at the same time. And it was also a place where I feel like more of the candidates were like myself in their 1st or second job search, not necessarily in their mid or senior level spaces. And I believe that has shifted quite a lot in the last several years. So who's in the TPE now in terms of the level and type of position that candidates are looking at and employers are hiring for?

D'Najah Thomas [00:14:50]:
Sure. You know, you shared a memory that just stuck with me. I was not at that particular one, but I remember being in San Antonio. And the way the my my boots. It was huge. And you have the candidate's a through m, n through z, and there were just hundreds and hundreds of people and hundreds of tables. And when we decided to go virtual, what you just shared is what we really listen to from candidates. I had a lot of listening sessions and I listened to people say I had 30, 40 interviews and, I was so stressed that an interview would go terrible and I didn't have time to, like, gather myself.

D'Najah Thomas [00:15:31]:
And then it was a trickle down effect or I was at a table and I had a hard time focusing because the interview was right next to me or sitting in the waiting room and hearing people talk about their number of interviews and struggling with comparison. And I remember as an employer just reminding candidates, you don't need every job, you just need 1. And I remember pausing interviews and saying, I don't think you have the stamina to show up well, and we reschedule you. And so what I appreciate now about us being virtual is the ways in which we are advocating for protecting the schedule of both candidates and employers. So we do last the full week, but we offer block. Our schedule builds and breaks. It's virtual, so we can't regulate everyone. But we highly recommend that people take the lunch break, take the afternoon break, adhere to the block, pause and go to some of the round tables.

D'Najah Thomas [00:16:17]:
And right now that we are virtual, you can go into a space. When an interview ends, don't book back to back. Give yourself a chance to go into a space, decompress, review that, drop into the candidate lounge, talk with 1 of the subcommittee members to just kind of help you have a better mental health experience through the process. And we actually do that for employers as well because we have to remember that people are away from their responsibilities on campus while doing these interviews. And I remind employers that they are being interviewed as much as they are interviewing candidates. And so you get distracted, you get fatigued. Some of these things that we are embedding because we are virtual are to help you show up, your best version as an employer, to the candidates who are giving you their time and trying to tell their story to you. And so I really do appreciate that the virtual space is allowing us to prioritize mental health, psychological safety, and well-being of everyone who's currently involved, for sure.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:12]:
The experience of the employer shifting as well, I think, is a very big deal because I think, especially as younger professionals, our instinct at the beginning is, you know, my job is to show up and show out, and the employer's job is to judge me. At least that's how I felt in my first TPE. And now it's I think we're trying to do more to push more of a balance that it is a mutual understanding of if this is gonna be the right job match. From the employer side, what else is new or changing for them?

D'Najah Thomas [00:17:41]:
Sure. From the employer side, a few things are new with the virtual experience. We really did listen to them 2 employers when they said, you know, it may be virtual, but we used to have reception. We wanna build that warm connection. If we can't physically touch or see other same spaces with candidates, how are they going to feel our full spirit, our vibe? We used to have swag. We used to fill mailboxes with all these things. And very lovingly, I said, there are ways that you do this now, but it has to actually be with the meat and the substance of who you are. And so you actually have to help candidates want to work for you because of the substance of what you offer, and you can do that.

D'Najah Thomas [00:18:20]:
So my coaching conversations with employers now are a lot about, tell me about your team, tell me about your campuses, tell me about the affinity spaces and support that is available to your staff. Talk to me about your professional development opportunities. Because this generation of candidates is very interested clear pathways to advancement? What is their supervision and leadership going to be like? And so I said employers, your booth, it's the sims. So that part is still fun. Your booth is fully branded. You can hyperlink it to videos. You can show a day in the life of. You can showcase your campus and your teams in ways virtually that you actually couldn't do in person.

D'Najah Thomas [00:18:58]:
You couldn't pick up your campus. Everybody just had the floor extensions with their brand on it. So now with your booth, you can use imagery, but you are linking to all of the resources and information that your campus has to offer in a very nicely branded way. But on top of that, your engagement with candidates is now about who you are, what you believe, what you value, and what the candidate experience will be. And so, in short, I'm finding that we are helping employers learn what it means to recruit, which is something other industries have been doing for some time, but I do think it's very new to student affairs. We knew that people were going to go to the graduate program. They were going to graduate, and they were going to need an entry point. And we just kind of knew that TBE would be that funnel.

D'Najah Thomas [00:19:41]:
But we know that the pipeline into the profession now looks different. And so virtual really does allow us to still serve that pipeline but also expand. Like your earlier question was, who all the CPE serve now? I am excited to say that we serve the full profession. We really do stop before you kind of get to the executive search firm level. That's not our wheelhouse. But up to director level positions, they are there in terms of employers posting those positions and candidates that are currently in the candidate pool. And I say that very excitedly because we are really carving out supporting those who want to do a nationwide search. There are lots of regional groups and associations that can do in person placement.

D'Najah Thomas [00:20:16]:
And I think that's wonderful. If you know you're gonna stay in the Northeast or the Southwest, and you can be at your conference and have that interview process, absolutely go for it. But if you know you're in California and you want to look at Illinois and Michigan and Virginia and Texas or a couple of different states and you don't want to break the bank as a candidate or if as an employer you want to cast the largest net as possible and you don't want to have to pick up and take a a team of 6 or 7 or 8 people, the virtual platform allows us to do that for everyone who wants to do it. Being virtual now lets us say that engaging in CPE is free for all candidates. That was a huge one. I just feel like it says something about an industry when you have to pay to get your job. We all want people to have to pay, let alone go into debt or use a credit card to get their next job. And so virtual allowed us to say, if you're looking for a job and you wanna meet some great employers, create a free candidate account, participate in the career fair, let our employers recruit you, and then in a few weeks, come back, have those interviews and hopefully find your next job.

D'Najah Thomas [00:21:23]:
Same way we say to employers, if you are a community college or a small college a limited budget, you are on the same footing as the flagship institution for whatever state you're in. It's the substance that you have that puts you in front of candidates and allows you to say to them, we have something that you want, and we would love to have you be a part of our team.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:42]:
I just wanna reiterate one thing that you said, which is that the placement exchange process as a candidate is free to you to use, which is such a critical point that wasn't always true. I believe I registered for a fee when I originally went through many years ago. It wasn't high if I recall, but, you know, it's still a fee. So I really appreciate that that is a major positive change for candidates. So if you're looking for a position this year, please register with TPE. It's totally free for you. Now if I'm an employer, let's talk about how much it might cost my institution.

D'Najah Thomas [00:22:16]:
Again, I can say it's probably going to cost you less than you ever remember. Like, full transparency, when I went to LA in 2019, we were in the 1,000 of dollars to have our booth, take our staff, to pack up all the slack, to stay in the hotel. Employer booths are only $475, And that is to keep it comparable with the actual technology that we use for the platform. And so in that employer booth, you can have up to six recruiter seats and each recruiter can run their own schedule. So if anybody remembers CPE in person, it was a table and you often ran 2 interviewers per table. And some employers ran 2 tables. You can do that with 6 recruiters and 1 booth. So you can have up to 6 interviews if they're individuals or 3 interviews if you run them in pairs for 475.

D'Najah Thomas [00:23:04]:
We are not in the business of trying to to bankrupt anyone. We actually want to make it as accessible as possible for our job seekers and our employers because that is how the field wins. When we can bring the largest pool of talent together and the largest pool of hiring employers together, I believe that both sides will be presented with option and possibility and increase the likelihood that we make really strong career matches across the field.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:30]:
I love that. That's amazing.

D'Najah Thomas [00:23:31]:
It makes me smile. So I'm glad it makes you smile.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:34]:
Absolutely. So as we look forward then, there's already been, I believe, at least 1, if not 2, virtual events that have happened this year. There's another couple major ones coming back up, including one that will be concurrent with the NASPA annual conference. So this episode should be airing right before the conference begins. If I haven't registered for TPE yet, but I want to, what do I do now?

D'Najah Thomas [00:23:58]:
All you have to do is go to our website, which has not changed. We're never gonna change that web address. It is www.theplacementexchange.org. You will see virtual placement highlighted on our web page. Click that live green button, register, and join us. Registration takes about 30 minutes. Setting up your booth only takes 30 minutes. I did it just to be sure I was being truthful when I tell an employer anyone can do it, anyone can do it, and then you have full access to to our registered candidates and the ability to participate in placement.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:30]:
You mentioned value congruence as probably one of the number one things that this generation of job seekers needs in their employer. How are you seeing employers demonstrate their values in a way that is really digestible for candidates?

D'Najah Thomas [00:24:43]:
I think, again, it starts with us introducing career fairs. We really wanted there to be something between I see a job on a site, I do my own kind of investigative research, and I hope they interview. I believe in the power of storytelling and human interaction. And so us since starting the career fair before placement has really been a great place for employers to do that. So there's what I see on your booth in terms of your printed materials about your your campus. I am now clicking to have a conversation with a recruiter and we are really working on helping candidates understand the questions to ask and the follow-up questions to ask. Ask. And so it is developing those conversational skills to engage in active recruiting.

D'Najah Thomas [00:25:23]:
And so I may say, you know, I read these are the values of your institution. An employer may say, yes. We value creativity, exploration, leadership, and service. Now in our in our recruiting chat, I can say, well, tell me a little more about how the value of service is played out on your campus. Often times employers are gonna talk about the student experience. And I say, as a candidate, when you listen, tell me what it is you're really wanting to hear and how do you have the question to get to that answer. So we kind of walk through scenarios and then the oh, they talked about the student experience. Well, they that sounded wonderful for students.

D'Najah Thomas [00:25:56]:
Can you tell me a little bit more about how this value, is experienced or plays out for your staff?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:02]:
Mhmm. Mhmm.

D'Najah Thomas [00:26:03]:
So it's just keeping the art of engagement. And we do the same with employers because this is new to engage in recruiting as well. So we talk about when you when you choose recruiters, you want to choose people who, a, understand the values, the mission, the vision of your university, who can talk about their own experience with them to showcase that congruence. And I recommend you collect stories of your colleagues, of your team, of your peers that can validate that or affirm that. I also talk to my employers about transparency to say these things are so aspirational and here's where we are in working towards this. I think this is a wonderful generation of candidates that appreciate the honesty and the transparency. So even if you tell me you're not there yet, if you can tell me how you're working towards it, I'm gonna appreciate that you didn't tell me a lie.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:50]:
Yeah. For sure.

D'Najah Thomas [00:26:50]:
That you have that awareness, and I have an understanding of how you're still trying to get there. And so it's not a ding to you as an employer if you haven't hit everything inspirationally. It's your ability in preparation to talk about how you're working towards it and what you have in place to bridge that gap if you're not there yet.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:08]:
Let's talk a little bit about the numbers. How many candidates and employers and jobs are in the TPE portal at any one given time and particularly during high season of hiring?

D'Najah Thomas [00:27:19]:
Sure. At any given time, we average between two 50 and 375 for jobs monthly. And so I give the average because we have new jobs posted. We offer 30, 60, 90 day postings. So we're in that 2 to 300 range on average per month. We currently have about 380 candidate resumes on the job board. That's the year round component. And we have about 600 employers who are in our system.

D'Najah Thomas [00:27:45]:
They may not be currently posting at the time, but they have posted in the past calendar year. Those numbers are continuing to grow as we continue to, a, inform people that we have a job work because a lot of people still just know us at the event. So as we continue to tell that story, those numbers increase. I am excited with placement that we are seeing numbers to start to increase to what they used to be. I told you the background in PR and marketing comes in hand. It helps me develop patients. Our field loves the things that have been a part of our journey, And we know that change is a process. And so replacement, our candidate numbers are are very quickly getting to what we are familiar with, closer to 300, 400 candidates.

D'Najah Thomas [00:28:22]:
Our employers are slow to adopt. And so our hope is as we continue to grow and employers continue to have that positive experience, a, that their testimonial, their validation, and their word-of-mouth will help. We are also marketing though, making sure employers know our candidates are getting it. We're getting up to 300 plus candidates almost to 4. And so right now, we actually are almost a 100 registered employers, which means there's almost a 100 positions. So it's a position per employer that they're being hired for. And they are from early career to senior, mid level, or senior level positions. And so I am just telling employers, you are looking for the candidate.

D'Najah Thomas [00:28:56]:
I can tell you where they are. They are leaning into technology. They are leaning into equitable access. They are leaning into spaces that fit better with their time and their schedule to look for a job. And so we are pacing it year by year to help employers see that we've heard what they were looking for from the in person experience, and we can't copy and paste, but we can find ways that technology allows us to reach that goal.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:17]:
I always say that transition and change always takes at least 3 years in higher education. 1 year to formulate and push the change out, the 2nd year to work out the issues or the kinks with it, and the 3rd year to let it fly and see if it actually works. It's because our profession is so cyclical. The hiring quote unquote season in higher ed really only happens once a year en masse, but it is it is all year round. But you're not gonna see if the impact is is what you're hoping for for a while, and that's just true for anything in higher ed, I think. So I'm hoping that our show and featuring TPE can help others discover you again.

D'Najah Thomas [00:29:53]:
Well, I appreciate that very much. This role as a former practitioner on the campus has helped me lean into we talk about redefining success. We easily say it, and then you have experiences that require you to live that amount. Up. Rebranding and restructuring CVE has really challenged me, and I've embraced what it means to redefine success. And so right now, redefining success is not the highest registration numbers. It is listening to those who were leaning into this process, say that it worked and they experienced an improved week going through the process in this way, hearing people say, oh, this felt very innovative, or this was engaging, or this was fun. Words that we used to hear from the in person experience to now hear them in the virtual experience lets me know that we're headed in the right direction.

D'Najah Thomas [00:30:34]:
So I'm very much leaning into the feedback from our participants to make sure that we are hitting the mark with what equals a quality experience for them. And I believe that as more people have the quality experience, the numbers will do what they need to do.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:47]:
Well, I think the number one thing that virtual space creates is accessibility. Right? And that's accessibility in a lot of different ways. But when I was, working as an AVPDOS at a large public university, you know, it made the TBE process possible for us because we couldn't afford to send 7, 8, 9 recruiters to the experience. But we could say, okay. Let's pay 1 fee, and we can post our hall director positions. We can post some assistant director positions, and we can try to find our people, this way. So I think that's that's all good stuff. What other transitions and developments have come about for TPE that you want our listeners to know about?

D'Najah Thomas [00:31:25]:
Sure. I think the the next big piece is what's happening in terms of programming and in the social media space. So we are about placement. We absolutely want people to connect employer to employee and find those jobs and make those hires. But again, as we think about being a career resource, it also means creating space to talk about and address the factors that impact our ability to retain staff and advance staff in the field. And there are some very role factors that we have to think about broadly if we're going to get the talent and keep the talent. And so, a big thing that I'm proud of is called TBE Talks. It's from our 2 planning committee chairs.

D'Najah Thomas [00:32:00]:
Every last Friday of the month, they get on the TPE Instagram live account and they talk about hot topics. So anything that is making someone think about, I don't wanna do this job anymore or what's driving my search for the next job, they talk about it. And I don't hang out in that space because I really wanted to be a free space for peer to peer conversation and engagement, and those conversations have been wonderful. The 2nd piece that will launch in March that I am extremely excited about is the one that I get to host. They're called TPE WRAP Session. And the sole subject of those conversations is around diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility, and how that is impacting our ability to recruit, retain, and advance practitioners. And so each month, I'll have a guest join me to have that conversation. And so it varies.

D'Najah Thomas [00:32:46]:
My first guest is going to be someone who was the director of HR and DEI for a West Coast campus. And so for people to be able to hear how campuses are doing this work, get some ideas, ask them questions, and then I'll talk to some practitioners about their journey and their experience in the field. But I really want us to create spaces to just talk about the importance of accessibility, the importance of DEI, and how that's impacting the talent in our field, whether they're staying or going, moving up, or whatever that looks like. I think there's no harm in having a space to really have that niche conversation. So those are 2 big things coming up that I'm really excited about is offering to the field.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:25]:
And repeat for us how people can listen into those dialogues?

D'Najah Thomas [00:33:29]:
Sure. If you want to listen in to TPE Talks, you can go to the TPE Instagram account on Fridays at 2 pm and join them live. If you want to join us for the wrap sessions, they happen the last Thursday of each month. And again, our website is magic. You go to our website and go to events. You'll find the link to join those when we are live on those last Thursdays of the month.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:53]:
Any final thoughts on TPE's evolution from you,

D'Najah Thomas [00:34:02]:
3rd year in the role, and this is the 3rd iteration of TPE in a virtual space is what you really alluded to. Right? We were really trying to fine tune what it means. And although it's a 3rd iteration, what I would say to the field is it's just an indicator that we're listening and that we are committed to refining it until we create what it is the field needs. And so I am excited for TPE to continue to evolve, to be a career hub for our field because I think that is the way forward for making sure that we can sustain our workforce. And not just have those bodies in seats, but make sure that our workforce is fulfilled and healthy and vibrant and able to have the creativity and the flexibility to do the work that they need to do.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:43]:
It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:50]:
Thanks so much, Jill. Glad to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a lot going on in NASPA as we prepare for the 2024 annual conference. One of the things that I wanted to talk about because we're talking about the placement exchange today is that there are opportunities within the placement exchange for your organizations to be able to find those employees that you need. Many of you may either be looking for jobs or may be looking for individuals to fill positions. And TPE, or the Placement Exchange, is the largest career placement resource in student affairs for over the last 15 years. TPE is committed to helping employers and job seekers in our industry find each other and build our community one great job at a time. The methods and practices for job searching and hiring continue to evolve, and TPE is also working, as we've been hearing about, diligently to deliver the best in technology and innovation as well as accessibility, affordability, and dependability when it comes to recruiting and retaining talented professionals in student affairs. I know you've been hearing about it a lot today, but I'm going to plug it again.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:03]:
To go to the placementexchange.org to find out more information. Another great opportunity for you to explore is a new partnership that is called the Program Review Collaborative. This was developed in collaboration with organizations such as the Association of Colleges and University Housing Officers International, the Association of College Unions International, NASPA, and the National Intramural Recreational Sports Association. The PRC is a new joint venture aimed at enriching departmental reviews through the guidance of seasoned experts. These associations bring together a wealth of knowledge, resources, and a unified commitment to advancing the work of campus of campus professionals and institutions alike. PRC reviews focus on appraising the strengths and opportunities of a department with particular emphasis on staffing, administrative processes, programmatic offerings, student engagement mechanisms, and collaborative ventures within the broader campus community. Find out more at program reviewcollaborative.org. Finally, thank you to everyone who voted in the annual NASPA leadership elections, which closed on February 8th.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:19]:
We are thrilled to announce the following results with each position following the NASPA board of directors for the terms noted. The board chair elect is Michael Christakis, vice president for student affairs at the University of Albany, the region 2 director, Chaunte Hill, vice president for student life athletics and campus services at St. Joseph's University, region four east director, Juan Guardia, assistant vice president for student affairs and dean of students at the University of Cincinnati, and region 5 director, Carnell McDonald Black, vice president for student life at Reed College. Congratulations to all of these new leaders that are going to be leading NASPA into the future. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit, where do you wanna give back.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:40]:
Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association, and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:27]:
Chris, as always, you just do such a wonderful job with keeping us updated on what's going on in and around NASPA. Thank you for all you do with our NASPA World segment. Denasia, we've reached our lightning round. I have 7 questions for you in 90 seconds. Ready to start the clock?

D'Najah Thomas [00:39:43]:
I'm ready.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:44]:
Alright. Number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

D'Najah Thomas [00:39:49]:
It would be Beyonce's I Been On. It's such a fierce song, and it reminds me to know that my track record is pretty good, and I don't need to be nervous about what I'm about to do.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:00]:
Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what would did you want to be when you grew up?

D'Najah Thomas [00:40:04]:
I wanted to be a bank teller because they always handed out lollipops when I went with my parents to the bank.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:10]:
Number 3. Who's your most influential professional mentor?

D'Najah Thomas [00:40:13]:
My most influential professional mentor would be doctor Stephanie Carter Atkins. He is the embodiment of servant leadership, and she taught me extreme patience as a supervisor.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:24]:
Number 4. Your essential student affairs or career read.

D'Najah Thomas [00:40:27]:
Oh, my essential read would be Dare to Lead by Brene Brown. It leads me into some vulnerability that I had to really work through to offer to my staff, but was transformational.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:38]:
Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic.

D'Najah Thomas [00:40:41]:
During the pandemic, there wasn't a lot of TV because there was a kid in the house. But I would say that My Guilty Pleasure was The Real House 5 series. You could pick 1. They were always on A&E. So yeah.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:53]:
Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

D'Najah Thomas [00:40:57]:
Harvard Business Review.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:58]:
And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional?

D'Najah Thomas [00:41:03]:
I would love to give a shout out to my partner who is also in higher ed and helps me find a way to navigate both of us reaching the goals that we have. I definitely wanna give a shout out to black women who are doing this work. They are my sisterhood. They are my network, and they are my support. And I am always here for empowering them. And then lastly, I have to give a shout out to my TPE planning committee, both current and past. TPE, when I say we, it's just me. And so without my planning committee, I would not be able to do what I get done.

D'Najah Thomas [00:41:32]:
They continue to be a dream team, and I love them dearly.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:35]:
Denasia, it has been a pleasure to have you on SA Voices and get to know more about how TPE has been changing and evolving to meet the needs of the modern candidate and the modern employer as well. If folks would like to reach you or TPE, how can they find you?

D'Najah Thomas [00:41:50]:
Sure. If they would like to reach me or TPE, they can come to the TPE website. Again, it's www .theplacementexchange.org. You can click about us and get in touch with myself or our general email account. You can also follow TPE on Instagram, Facebook, or LinkedIn. If you put in the placement exchange on all 3, we will pop up. There's no competitors. You'll definitely land at us, and I do my best to get back to people as quickly as I can.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:17]:
Thank you so much for sharing your voice and the new story of TPE with us today.

D'Najah Thomas [00:42:22]:
Thank you so much for having me. It's been a wonderful conversation.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:28]:
This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at essay voices at NASPA dot org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:09]:
This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Embracing change and adaptability has been a focal point in the latest episode of 'Student Affairs Voices From the Field.' Host Dr. Jill Creighton sits down with Dr. Denny Roberts, who has beautifully woven his international experiences into the fabric of student affairs. In this blog, I delve into the highlights of their conversation and explore how Dr. Roberts' insights can inspire and guide student affairs professionals in their practice.

Understanding Diversity Beyond Borders

One compelling topic from the episode was the discussion around diversity in Qatar versus the U.S. Dr. Roberts and Dr. Creighton highlight that when working internationally, one must redefine what diversity, equity, and inclusion mean within the context of their environment. Dr. Roberts emphasizes the importance of cultural understanding in fostering engagement in highly diverse student populations. This urges professionals to prioritize intentional efforts and practice humility to make substantial connections across varied cultural landscapes.

Fostering Multicultural Engagement

The challenges that Dr. Roberts faced in Qatar's Education City showcase the complexity of creating universal student experiences without imposing one's cultural norms and expectations. He underscores the necessity of professional development and immersion to truly engage with the local culture. The emphasis is on the importance of educators obtaining a deep understanding of the cultures they serve, which is crucial in respecting the choices and experiences of international students.

Transitions, Writing, and Contributions

Dr. Roberts' journey through various career and geographic transitions sheds light on his decision to step into consultancy. This choice was driven by a desire to maintain personal freedom and a passion for writing—something he has continued with zeal post-retirement. His contributions in philosophy, history, leadership, and internationalization highlight the valuable interplay between practice experience and scholarly activity in student affairs.

Multipotentiality and Identity

An intriguing element of Dr. Roberts' narrative is the idea of being a 'multipotentialite.' He describes the traits—idea synthesis, rapid learning, and adaptability—which mirror his approach to student affairs and consultancy. This concept adds another dimension to understanding professional identities within the field and encourages embracing one's diverse skill set.

Reverse Culture Shock and Moving Forward

Dr. Roberts' return to America after living abroad opened a discussion on reverse culture shock. His advice for professionals seeking international experience is thoughtful and grounded in choosing deep, reflective opportunities over perfunctory resume enhancements. His message: be transformed by your experiences and seek an environment that respects and enhances your growth.

Conclusion

Dr. Denny Roberts' experiences and insights provide a compelling narrative for those in student affairs. They encourage educators to be adaptable, culturally sensitive, and intentional—a lesson in how one's experiences can shape not just personal growth, but also professional practice in diverse environments. Ultimately, his journey teaches us that transitions can be an avenue for development, inspiring new approaches to leadership and inclusion in the field of student affairs.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]:
Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This Podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. 

Dennis C. Roberts is an independent consultant, speaker, and author. He last served as Assistant Vice President of Education for Qatar Foundation. During his seven years with QF he worked with Qatari and expatriate colleagues to create the student development and support services for its branch universities at Education City in Doha, Qatar. Prior to working abroad, he was Associate Vice President of Student Affairs at Miami University. He is past president of ACPA-College Student Educators international, and has been a member and presenter at the National Association of Student Personnel Administrators and the International Leadership Association
throughout his career. He has authored 6 books and over 50 book chapters and other articles on student affairs, student learning, leadership, and internationalization. Denny, welcome to SA Voices.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:00:25]:
Delighted to be with you today, Jill. This is awesome.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:27]:
It is such a thrill to be able to speak to you in our theme of transitions this season. You have had quite a few career transitions, both in your identity as a professional, but also in your physical location. And in our preshow chat, I also got to know you and I share a lot of transitions in common, so I'm excited to dig into those. But I always like to get started with a question of how you got to your current seat, and your current seat is consultancy, which I know a lot of student affairs professionals kind of weave in and out of or move through after a VPSA position.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:01:01]:
It is kind of an interesting transition because I had done Consulting before, you know, when I was full time employed and that kind of thing. And when I decided that it was time to return to the US from Being located in Qatar, I kinda struggled. Do I wanna continue to work full time and therefore take another job at the US or do I want to do something else? And a variety of circumstances, both personal and professional, caused me to think, you know, I really am kinda tired of going to the office every day and having somebody else tell me to do is. So I thought, maybe I can make this consulting thing work. And I also had just a gob of Ideas in my head. And I've written, you know, quite a bit during my career, but there was just this whole backlog of ideas That came to me from working abroad, and I thought, you know, if I'm tied to go to the office every day, I'm not gonna get these things Done. And what's really been fabulous is my writing has actually accelerated in retirement. I don't know if that will continue or not, but it's been terrific.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:02:04]:
And I've had so much fun writing with younger colleagues who have fresh eyes, with international colleagues To have a totally different perspective. And the character of my writing has really, I think, Changed in this post kind of and I like to call it semi retirement because I can't give up. Right? So I really have not adopted an identity of being retired. I'm still very actively involved, so it was a real decision, personal and professional, that I just wanted more freedom. And fortunately enough, I was very blessed with having had a career that gave me enough economic needs to say that I didn't need that monthly salary. And that's a tough decision To make 2 in terms of how much is enough. Anybody that is facing the potential of retirement, you have to kind of gauge, like, what what's What's the lifestyle I wanna have? And I decided that what we had was very much something that would allow us stability, allow us time to do what we want. My wife was retired at that point already as well, and we decided to move to Chicago to be close to our grandkids.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:03:08]:
So, that was all a part of the scenario about How I got to the, current semi retirement status that I'm in.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:16]:
You've been quite a prolific author and student affairs is with over 60 journal articles and peer reviewed journals. I believe you've either edited or, coedited. Is it 6 books as well?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:03:27]:
That's correct. Yeah.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:28]:
So with all of that, how has your voice as an author evolved from your very first publication through when you kind of felt like you were churning a burden and now?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:03:37]:
When I first Started writing, and I was extremely fortunate to have matured in 2 settings that were very, very influential for me. One was Colorado State University, and the other was University of Maryland. Both of them and I was a 1st generation college student, so I was kind of clueless about what the academic world really was all about But I had some really good coaches in the early days who urged me. They said, If you wanna be in student affairs, you need to also contribute Intellectually, you can't just be a practitioner. So I had role models at both institutions that urged me to start writing. And the early pieces that I did, I mean, one was I got involved in the whole issue about the age change for alcohol On college campuses, and so 18 to 21? Correct. Yeah. And I stood in opposition to that, Which was kind of an unusual position to take at the time.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:04:34]:
And so that was kind of an opportunist publication, but not one that is deep in my heart. So After that, I started working more to just write about things that I really cared about, and that I felt like I had really learned something, And then I had something to offer, which is really very different than what a faculty member experiences. And even though I've Taught both at the graduate and undergraduate levels. I was never driven by tenure and promotion to write certain sorts of things That get into the literature in a specific sort of way. So I were really informed by my practice Experiences throughout my life. So, you know, if I was struggling with a particular issue at a certain time, then I tended to use writing as kind of almost my public Journal, this is what I'm thinking. And I don't know frankly, when you write, you never know who's gonna Be touched by an article that you write, and it's kind of a mystery to me in terms of who does read things that I write. But I Have had feedback from some of my articles or chapters that my narrative style speaking from personal experience, That reflection has been helpful for other people, and I think that is a different kind of writing than sometimes you would see in a typical kind of Tenure track publication driven, you know, kind of an environment.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:05:54]:
So my publications for the early start was kinda just but then it became much more purposeful and more deeply reflective as I've gone on. And the areas I've published in that I'm most proud of are kind of student affairs, Philosophy and history, leadership, and then internationalization. Those are the 3 areas that I've most enjoyed, and I hope that the contribution I've made there has Made some difference to shed some light on those topics.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:20]:
Am I hearing you as maybe an early adopter of autoethnography as a research style?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:06:25]:
Probably. And I wasn't even aware That as a style. I had no idea that that's what I was doing, but yeah, that really is kind of where I'm coming from.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:33]:
I think my qualitative professor might be mad that I just called it a would want me instead to call it a methodology.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:06:40]:
Yeah, exactly. Yep. Yep.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:41]:
Well, Denny, you also have had a prolific as a campus based professional and then transitioned off of a campus. So why don't we talk about that? You were at University of Miami. Is that Miami, Florida or Miami of Ohio?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:06:54]:
No. It's Miami University of Ohio.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:56]:
I apologize to the state of Ohio.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:06:58]:
You have to flip The words there. So yeah. But Miami University in Ohio is where I was.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:02]:
And you had, what I understand to be a fairly traditional rise in student affairs going from junior roles to mid roles and finally to that VPSA role. What was the state of the field when you determined it was time to go overseas?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:07:14]:
Well, the idea of going overseas Cheese was really kind of planted through a previous experience at Miami, and the Miami, and you'll be very interested in this as a person interested To the study abroad, they have a bubble program in Difertaj, Luxembourg. And I heard about their invitation for visiting scholars, which were typically Play usually faculty that would do those roles. Well, I applied for it even though I was an administrator and I got it. And so I got to spend a semester in Luxembourg, and then during that time I taught and mentored students, and then I also wrote Actually, one of my books, which is deeper learning and leadership, which came out in 2007. So I worked very, very hard every week, And I had a Eurail pass, and so if I met my writing objectives, then on Friday morning, I hit Eurail. And I would go someplace. Well, guess how many writing deadlines I missed?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:10]:
All of them? None of them.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:08:13]:
0. I missed none of them. So every weekend I went someplace you know so I'd go to paris I'd go to berlin I'd go to fiena I would We'd go all over Europe on my Eurail pass because it didn't cost me a thing. And every place I would go, I would land, and I'd find a cheap place to stay, and I would start walking the city. You know, that's what I would do every weekend. And so that just exploded my idea about what it's like To be in other cultures and to learn from other places and to be respectful and attentive to the differences from myself as an American versus all the other worlds. And that happened in 2005. And then I just kind of ruminated for a while about, well, what was that all about? And Finished the book, got it published, all that kind of thing.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:08:59]:
And then Qatar came to me just out of the blue, and I had not applied, but they came to me and invited me to apply For what was a newly created possession, which was the role was to coordinate student services and development activities across the 8 branch Universities that they had then attracted to, the Education City campus in Doha, Qatar. And simultaneous to this, which is just A very, very strange, fortuitous sort of thing is that my daughter, Darby, was graduating from Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, And they invited her to go to their Carnegie Mellon branch program in Qatar. So Darby accepted the position first. They came to me subsequently. My immediate reaction when I was invited was I asked Darby. I said, Darby, this is crazy. I mean, your father's gonna follow you halfway around the world in your 1st job. I mean, Can you deal with this? Would this be okay? And she said, oh, of course, dad.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:10:00]:
No problem at all. So I applied and they hired me and then I went over and that was in the fall of two And I went over for what was supposed to have been a 3 year contract, which was then successively extended to 6, And then extended to 7. And then finally, after 7th year, I said, I really need to go back, and I need to be with my family. Unfortunately, my My wife was not able to go over and live with me over there even though she came over on a quarterly basis, and we talked every day. But that's one of the challenges of expat work Yes. That always get to take your family with you, and that's not always convenient. And so you have to kinda figure out how that's gonna work. So that was a huge transition Culturally, professionally, personally, I mean that was the real kind of just crazy paradigm change for me when I went to Qatar.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:52]:
So I grew up in the Middle East a little bit. I had my earliest years in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and it's a very different cultural space. I also have spent some time in the UAE and then have good colleagues in the Levant region, as well as, you know, just kind of all around the GCC or the Gulf Coast region. On the show last season, we had a good colleague from Kuwait and then also in the season prior, colleagues from Qatar as well and from Kuwait. And we hear that the the needs of students are just extremely different. For those who are not familiar with Education City. As Denny mentioned, there are more than 8 now branch campuses in Education City in Qatar. I believe it's more than 8 now.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:32]:
And they have attracted or kind of what I would call joint venture opportunities, really, where students from the local region are coming in earning degrees with university names that a US audience are probably a little more familiar with. But it's not as if you can just transplant all of these Americanized ideals into this environment where the value system is extremely different. So how did you adapt what you knew and what you had been practicing and researching to this environment that you didn't know at all.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:12:02]:
The Qatar Education City campus, it does have just 8 universities. And, well, 6 are American universities, one is European, And then there's their homegrown graduate school, which is called Hamid bin Khalifa University. So it's the 8 institutions and they They are not joint degrees. They are in the local environment. What's fascinating about what they've been able to do in Qatar is that the degree requirements Are exactly the same as the home campus. So if you get a degree from Carnegie Mellon in computer science, The curriculum is identical. And if it's Texas A&M engineering curriculum, identical. So and actually, the degree is granted from the home Campus rather than it being there as a local in Qatar, you know, kind of a degree.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:47]:
So it looks exactly the same when you're done.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:12:50]:
Exactly. And so, You know, part of what the goal was was to replicate the student learning experience between the US Or European, and then the Qatar example. What's interesting about that is that student affairs is very much a part of Most institutional cultures in the US. And for the most part, the colleagues that I worked with in Qatar, particularly those that were Country or were GCC Air World colleagues, they had no idea of what student affairs was about. Even for those that studied in the US, there's a tendency, at least among the colleagues with whom I interacted, there's a tendency for them to Not engage in the same sorts of ways when they're in the US. So I had lots of colleagues that went to US institutions That didn't even know there was such a thing as a student affairs division, and what value did that bring, and that kind of thing. So a major major part of what I Did there was to raise awareness of what student affairs was as a historical and philosophical and research based Commitment.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:13:56]:
And that I have to say, worked in some examples, and I'm thrilled that it stuck. In other examples, that never really did take, and I think that that's really something that international student affairs educators have to face. Some of it's gonna stick, Some of it isn't, and some of that is because of the differences in culture. And I'm sure you know from your Riyadh experience and UAE experience, I mean, the background that a student brings to the learning environment very clearly impacts the way that they're going to engage, and that relates to Everything from deference to authority, to gender roles, to freedom of thought and expression. I mean, there's just all sorts of things. And what's really interesting is to try to contextualize the values that student affairs can bring to another culture, But not do it in a way that judges other people's way of being. I learned so much from some of the students, for instance, that came from Pakistan, or from India, or from North African countries, where the environment of their expressing their views And actively engaging would have been politically dangerous. And as educators, even though I value democratic Education and full engagement, I had to understand that I was potentially educating a student with a tool that could be dangerous for them In terms of personal or professional welfare.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:15:30]:
It's a really interesting tension, and that doesn't mean abandon the values and the purpose that we have as student affairs educators, but it does mean you need to understand the cultural differences, and you need to respect the choices that students have to make that might be different than what you would find in a US kind of a setting. Did you find that in your in your work in the UAE and Saudi Arabia?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:55]:
Well, I was only in the UAE for a hot second, and, it was really as a visitor when I was working for NYU in the past. But I think my most relatable experiences as a CSAO in in China for a couple of years, and that institution had students from 70 countries.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:16:11]:
Yeah. Well, we had a 100 in in In Qatar.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:14]:
So when you have that level of diversity, it's just very different than what diversity is conceptualized as in the United States.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:16:22]:
Correct.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:22]:
And then even in my mind, what what the priorities are and diversification are different. And the way that we talk about inclusion and access in the US is actually quite ethnocentric to the US, and I don't think that we acknowledge that all the time.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:16:36]:
Amen. Amen. I mean, no, I mean, that's a really distinction, and I think that the focus on diversity, equity, and inclusion is very important to in the US, and translating that in an international All setting is very appropriate. However, the way that you define it and what you understand to be diversity needs To be conceptualized in a different sort of way.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:58]:
Well, absolutely. And the campus I was on had about 60% students from China mainland and then 40% students from the rest of the world. And and so when we look at that, it was also all of a sudden your majority identity is not students who come from privileged backgrounds from a majority ethnic white background. It's Han Chinese all of a sudden, and so then the world shifts in terms of what you understand. And so that was just quite a part quite an interesting part of my experience and a huge transition for me in the way I conceptualize things. I'm wondering for you then, Denny, if You could talk about what's the number one thing you found in terms of a universal experience amongst students in a setting that diverse.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:17:39]:
Well, Certainly, their interaction with each other was very, very powerful, and this was actually one of the things that I advocated Very, very strongly. Some of the branch programs tended to want to kinda develop their own identity of their own students kinda within the bubble. So The Northwestern students would hang together. The Georgetown students would hang together, etcetera. And that kinda happened naturally because each of them had a separate building. But while I was there, We built a student center that was a shared space, and so the shared space was supposed to bring everybody together and It was just overwhelming. Students just loved it. You know, we had the bowling alley and the sports complex, and we had the Convenience shopping, and we had meeting rooms, we had a theater, we had an art gallery.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:18:29]:
I mean, we had all of that that then Brought people together. And we eventually built residence halls as well. And the residence halls again, you know, it was not clustered by your academic experience, but it was mixed up In terms of both your academic experience and your cultural experience. So it was very very clear that our Students there and you would hear different languages, different styles of dress, all of that all the time. And I assume that you've observed the same sort of thing. So diversity of thought and culture and background is ubiquitous. That is the experience. And what's interesting about it Is though and we actually conducted the national survey of student engagement of the students over there to see what the real impact Was and while the opportunity for exposure across culture was clearly there as a Ubiquitous experience, engaging in it was a different matter.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:19:25]:
And if you look at US experience too, just that diversity is on the Campus doesn't guarantee that there is multicultural engagement. There has to be intentional effort to make it happen. There has to be willingness. There has to be respect and humility. You have to have all of those things, and that was a startling realization In terms of just because you have students from a 100 countries doesn't mean that you're going to have a multicultural experience. You have to work at it. And this is something that student affairs really is so strong in in comparison to other academic areas and so forth. But again, as we're saying, It can't be replicated right straight from the US.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:20:05]:
The principles of it, the philosophy of it, I think can be transferred, but how you do it has to be different.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:11]:
One other thing that I always try to conceptualize is how do I help lead a team to create a universal student experience without kind of engaging in colonialism is the best way I can put it. And that's so tough. Right? Because my training, my education, and my experiences are primarily US based. And so as we look at you know, we are privileged people to be able to live and work in another country. We are also being asked to be there because of the knowledge base that we bring and also trying to figure out how to do that in culturally appreciative ways of the environment that we're in. So can you talk about maybe a practice or some sort of departmental shift that you had to make to really engage the cultural elements of where you were compared to what you knew.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:20:56]:
I used some of the tools that I had used previously in my career. So particularly because There was really not a base of understanding student affairs from a research and theory and publication point of view. We did a lot of professional development efforts, And we did that actually in concert with some US institutions. We established something that we called the Qatar Foundation, YPI, Young Professionals Institute. And so we hosted institutions like Colorado State, Maryland, San Diego, who would bring their students over, and we would have these 2 week Experiences that were intensive cultural immersion, and then working in teams to bring ideas about Student affairs practice, but then to to recreate it as a cultural context. So we would have half US graduate and young professionals, and half Qatar based or Arab world based people that were interested in the field or employed in the field, and would they would work in teams together on certain kinds of topics. So for instance, one of the topics that was just wonderful to explore was the influence of family. And of course, US students are all talking about, oh, it's Important for you to be independent and autonomous from your families and so forth.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:22:05]:
And our local Arab world colleagues and Asian colleagues were saying, no. Not so much. Not so much. And so literally, the US students relearned in very powerful ways. But on the other hand, Our Arab world colleagues, our Asian colleagues also learned the merits of fostering independence and autonomy while doing it in a respectful sort of way of Environments that are very, very family oriented. One of the things that I also did personally was I practiced Very deep humility on a regular basis, humility and curiosity. And I had several cultural informants, who were colleagues who were willing to give me the the straight scoop about how I was coming across. Oh, that's

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:49]:
so important.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:22:51]:
Oh my gosh. It was incredible. I would not have survived without them. No way. And so I would regularly meet with them and ask them what was Going well. What was not going so well? And they would tell me. And that was difficult at first because not only am I a Privileged white American. I'm also old.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:23:09]:
I have white hair. And so in the cultural context, the reverence For somebody of my makeup was very significant and I really had to build trust so that people would tell me the truth. Because when you're in that kind of a position as a privileged white American or really kind of like as any kind of an American or European, you have to understand your Privilege. And if you don't understand your privilege, you're likely to do exactly what you suggested, which you will become a neocolonialist. You will impose your idea on other people whether it fits or not. And man, I just I learned so much from that. And I learned a term recently Lee, that I I think is kind of a really fun term. Have you ever heard of the term multi potentialite?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:52]:
No. That's new for me.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:23:53]:
It's actually TED Talks by Emily Wapnick. And when I listened to it, I kind of went like bingo. And all my career life, I've had wonderful jobs, and I've had a lot of fun, and I've had some Pushback in terms of I sometimes kind of have a different way of seeing things. Well, this multipotentialite thing has a lot to do with it. And the 3 characteristics that she identified are that they tend to be, very good at idea synthesis. They secondly are rapid learners, so they catch on quickly, and they they go for it while sometimes other people are kind of dragging their feet. And then thirdly, they're very adapt Across environments. And those things, I think, really, really helped me in the Qatar example.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:24:34]:
And I think it also relates to just My identity as an artist because, you know, I have an undergraduate degree in music, and musicians are always looking for relationships, and harmony, and sequence, And patterns, that's who musicians or artists are. And I think I actually express that in my work in Some pretty interesting ways. And I'm saying this because I think some of us that may look a little different or think a little bit differently than colleagues around us sometimes End up feeling as if that were not appreciated or were not affirmed. And I think it's really important to kinda look at your own gifts and try to figure out how that they fit With any particular work environment or any particular calling that you may want to consider. And that has a whole lot to do with this whole transitions theme of Knowing yourself well enough to know your strengths and weaknesses, and then identifying opportunities where your best gifts are gonna meet the The needs of a particular environment, and you're gonna be able to be effective in that other setting. And for the most part, I've been lucky. I had a lot of good lands, Couple, that's so good, but that's kinda the luck of the draw with some of that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:43]:
Let's talk about the transition of reverse culture shock. That's a rough one, and reverse culture shock, meaning you decided to return to the US to settle into semi retirement. You've been living in a different cultural context for 7 years at that point, but coming back to a context that you're supposed to know and understand well, but maybe may not make as much sense to you in some ways anymore or may make more sense to you in some ways. So what was that experience like?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:26:09]:
Yeah. Well, the first thing that I noticed was that People didn't really care. And that was frustrating because I learned so much from the work abroad experience I wanted to share. And so on numerous opportunities, I waxed eloquently about my work abroad experience, and eventually, I started noticing the glazed eyes And the fact that people just weren't interested. And that was disappointing to me as a reverse culture shock issue. I thought That my American colleagues around here would welcome that more. So I became more selective in terms of how I offered my point of view. And lots of people that I interact Now I have no clue that I've worked abroad and what my experience has been, and that's totally okay.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:26:53]:
But I I had an urgency of wanting to share it. I think probably came from just Self processing. So it was self processing publicly by talking to other people about it. So that definitely was something. Our choice of coming back To a setting that was more inclusive and had more diversity in, and it was also very purposeful. I was still working in Qatar in 2012 when we actually purchased our home and my wife moved to Chicago. And we moved from Oxford, Ohio. And, Oxford, Ohio is a Small town, kind of a bubble kind of setting in itself, not a lot of diversity.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:27:27]:
I knew full well there was no way that after working abroad, working with diverse colleagues, Working with diverse students, then I would be able to come back and and really enjoy a setting that was more homogeneous. So Chicago worked really well for us. We live in a very diverse neighborhood. Lots of internationals or expatriated people live in our neighborhood. Lots of cultural Diversity, socioeconomic diversity. I mean, I live in Wilmette, Illinois, and for those who have stereotypes about Wilmette, park them someplace Because, yes, there is the the North Shore Sheridan Road version of Wilmette, and then there's the version that I live in. And the version I live in is actually very diverse and very, very interesting. So the choice of where to come back as an expatriate, I think, is very important.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:28:12]:
And that both relates To if you come back to work someplace, as well as to come back to live someplace. I think you don't just come back and replug in to the old way of being Because the old way of being is gone. It just doesn't exist, and you're not comfortable there anymore. So I was transformed by my experience and very much sought Diverse experience, diverse exposure, and then dialing it down in terms of sharing my international wisdom. I share that in my writing. I don't share it in my personal interaction with people.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:45]:
Yes. And now you're sharing it on our show, which we're very grateful for.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:28:48]:
So, I mean, that was so powerful. It was, really wonderful. And for people that might want to consider international experience, it is a transition out and then back. And you can look at Transition experiences that you've had in other work or personal circumstances to look at the kind of strengths and challenges that you faced, And then figure out how to navigate in ways that that do not violate your values. And that's a really important part of this too is understanding your values well enough to know where Where do you have some flexibility versus where can you adapt and do it in ways that are gonna be both to your benefit and the benefit of others?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:25]:
What advice do you have for US based student affairs pros who might be looking for jobs in Education City or really anywhere outside of the US?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:29:34]:
They're kind of idiosyncratic in terms of the selection processes are not as transparent as they are in most US settings. And so at least in my experience, I don't know how this compares with yours, but it's not unusual at all for Referrals to be made on a personal basis rather than for there to be a an application process that you throw your vita or resume into the pile and it gets sorted out. So taking on experiences that allow you to tiptoe into it helps. I mean, my Luxembourg experience clearly Was tiptoeing into international work, so it was a temporary period. It was like a, you know, faculty study abroad program is basically what it was, and I think one of the things that I worry about a little bit is that sometimes I think people think that excuse me for being negative about this, But I've seen some study tours quote that are more what I would call ecotourism.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:29]:
Academic tourism. Don't even get me started. It's a whole thing.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:30:32]:
Okay. Well, you know exactly what I'm talking about. And that's not enough. If you're gonna choose an experience to Travel abroad, and you want to do it in a professional developing sort of way, then choose something that is a deep dive in terms of culture, requires lots of preparation in advance, requires lots of reflection during and after the process. Don't just go there to be able to notch it on your resume, travel to x number of countries. That just doesn't work, at least for me. And I I don't mean to be critical because I know all of these are steps toward being more internationally aware. But if you're in a student affairs position, you Kinda wanna consider this internationalization thing, then do it deeply.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:31:14]:
You know, find a program that really is gonna give you a deep dive and really engage you in ways that helps you to teach Humility and curiosity. So that would be my advice.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:23]:
It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:29]:
Thanks, Jill. So great to be back in the NASPA world. Really excited to be able to talk to you about the amazing things that are happening within our association. The 2024 NASPA Student Affairs Fundraising Conference is coming up July 29th to July 31st in Louisville, Kentucky. The purpose of the NASPA Student Affairs Fundraising Conference is to share and exchange strategies, ideas, and resources, And to discuss issues related to student affairs fundraising and external relations. The conference promotes an exchange of best practices, And it is designed for professionals who currently have development responsibilities specifically in student affairs And for professionals with backgrounds and experience in either student affairs or development. The call for programs for this conference is Currently open until February 26, 2024. And if you have an interest in presenting at the conference, I encourage you to submit before the deadline To be able to be considered to share with amazing professionals that are all there interested in the same thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:38]:
At the same time, we are also looking for reviewers for sessions that are submitted, and reviewer applications are also due by February 26th. Information on both of these opportunities can be found on the NASPA website. If you go to the event itself and click on it, You'll find out more information. Help ensure that eligible students are registered, educated about elections, and turn out to exercise their right to vote by considering to engage with the voter friendly campus program. This is a free initiative that's been growing since its inception in 2016 in partnership with the Campus Vote Project. You can find out more at campus vote Project .org. I know in the past I've talked about the Leadership Exchange as a great piece of professional development. This is a magazine that's sent out by NASPA every quarter to be able to allow for our vice presidents for student affairs to think about Topics that are pertinent to the day to day activities that they are dealing with, but that doesn't mean that if you're not a vice president for student affairs that you will not learn so much by reading the articles that are submitted.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:47]:
One such article that I would highly recommend is called budget reduction 101, And it was written by incoming chair of the NASPA board, Anna Gonzalez and Christine Livingston. The great thing about this is that it is giving frontline perspectives on making effective cost cutting decisions and really gets into the mind of the chief student affairs officers on things that they can do to be able to cut costs and to manage Their divisions in an effective way. As I said, you don't have to be a vice president for student affairs to better understand this topic, but you will learn so much From reading this and getting into the mind of vice presidents within our association. If you have an interest in learning more about budget reduction or other topics, I encourage you to go to the NASPA website under publications and go to leadership exchange, and you'll be able to access the winter 2024 issue that does have This specific article in it or many of the other issues that have come in the past that I think that you will find to be Very eye opening. I know I've mentioned this before, but there are some amazing keynote speakers that are going to be at the 2024 NASPA virtual conference That is available April 2nd through 5th, and it's something that you and colleagues on your own campuses can definitely take advantage of Whether you're going to the national conference or not. A few of the keynote speakers that are going to be highlighted That are going to be speaking at the conference itself includes Josie Elquist, who's a higher education digital educator leader and author, Shawna Patterson Stevens. Doctor Shawna Patterson Stevens, vice president for inclusive excellence and belonging At at Central Michigan University and also doctor Kevin Kruger, president of NASPA will be speaking at the virtual conference. This among many great concurrent sessions that are available are going to allow for you and your colleagues to leave the days with So much great professional development and opportunities to be able to learn right from home or right from campus.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:57]:
If you wanna find out more about the virtual conference, go to learning .naspa.org Forward slash v c dash sessions. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways Because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be Getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, It's important to be able to identify for yourself. Where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might Encourage you might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways That allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, Your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:22]:
Because through doing that, All of us are stronger, and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:34]:
Thank you, Chris, for giving us the latest scoop on what's going on in and around NASPA. And, Denny, we have reached our lightning round. I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. You ready to go?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:37:46]:
I sure am. Yep.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:47]:
Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:37:52]:
Well, I'm a classical musician trained person. It would be, The last movement of Mahler's 8th symphony.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:02]:
That'll be a very dramatic entrance.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:38:03]:
Very dramatic. Very dramatic. Yep.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:05]:
Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:38:09]:
Oh, I wanted to be a concert pianist. That was my whole vision of myself as a

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:13]:
Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:38:17]:
Wow. This one is tough. I kinda thought about this a little bit this morning because I've had some great Mentors, I have to admit most of them have been women, and one person who is a colleague and mentor is Susan Komovaz. She's a delightful human being, and we Change a lot. Barbara Kellerman in the leadership studies world is somebody that I really respect. Esther Lloyd Jones, I had a chance to know her, and She taught me a lots of things about student affairs and what we're here for, and so I broke the rule. I gave you 3, so that's enough.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:45]:
Number 4, your Essential Student Affairs Read.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:38:48]:
Essential Student Affairs Read? Actually, Esther Lloyd Jones, deeper learning and leadership 1954.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:53]:
Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:38:58]:
Oh, wow. Do I have to admit it? Succession. I'm sorry.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:06]:
Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:39:10]:
I actually listen to I do listen to this one, and I Really, really enjoyed this this podcast, but I watch, the International Leadership Association podcast, and there are actually a couple of them that I watch, regularly to get the wisdom from those.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:25]:
And finally, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:39:29]:
I thank Chris For introducing me to this opportunity, I think I'm kinda known in the in the professional world as more of an ACPA kind of person. So I don't show up in the NASPA space as As often as I might, even though I've been an ASPA member most of my career. Kevin Kruger was he had his 1st job with me. Yeah. And lots and lots of colleagues that are very active in NASPA, but I have maintained more in the the, ACPA area. And, you know, for me, these professional associations are so important in terms of giving us a colleague network, a way to push our understanding to Standing to learn from each other and that kind of thing. And so I I would give a a shout out to folks like you that are trying to get people's voices out there and get exchanged And professional organizations that allow us to relate to one another and discover how to do our best work.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:21]:
Thank you so much, Denny. It's been an incredible opportunity to get know you today and your story. If anyone would like to reach you after the show airs, how can they find you?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:40:30]:
My professional email is dc roberts48@gmail.com. And in Wilmette, Illinois, I have a LinkedIn profile. I have 2 blogs That I maintain one is called Pursuing Leadership by Denny, and that one's mostly about it has a lot in travel because I started in 2005 when I went to Luxembourg, but it's all by reading that I do on a regular basis. And then the other one's called Global Student Affairs. And that's more about international implications For people that are in student affairs work. So those would be the best ways to get in touch with me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:05]:
I'm looking forward to checking out that second one in particular.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:41:07]:
Jill, it's been great. Yeah. We have so many nice connections, and I feel like we're possibly birthed from the same parents. I don't know. But

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:16]:
I appreciate the deep connections on so many levels, whether it be music or international higher education or student affairs journey or even where we've been in the US. So, Denny, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:41:29]:
Great. Alright. I look forward to seeing you again.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:34]:
This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at s a voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. Ginz. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:08]:
It really does help other student fairs professionals find the show, and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your or as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Adapting to Students' Needs Across Institutional Types

The recent episode of the SA Voices From The Field Podcast featuring Hing Potter dove deep into student affairs and the unique intricacies of working at different types of educational institutions. Potter's transition to the assistant director of student life and leadership at City College of San Francisco brought to light his advocacy for student development through inclusion and empowerment, which is a hallmark of his 11-year career.

Changes in Professional Focus

One remarkable aspect Potter shared was how his professional focus needed to shift as he navigated the diverse environments of 4-year public, 4-year private, and 2-year public institutions. This included adjusting plans and thought processes according to the timeframe of students' academic careers, thereby reinforcing the importance of adaptability in student affairs.

Ensuring Continuity and Leadership

Another challenge Dr. Jill Creighton discussed with Potter is how to guarantee continuity and develop student leadership within the limited timespan specific to 2-year colleges. Potter emphasized the need for transparency in passing on institutional knowledge, ensuring that successive student councils can uphold and continue advocating for student experiences.

Salary Negotiation and Personal Advocacy

The episode also highlighted Hing Potter's recent negotiation for a higher salary at City College, a testament to recognizing and advocating for one's value in the workplace. Dr. Jill Creighton's insights into the importance of comparing qualifications with job descriptions, depersonalizing negotiations, and communicating in writing provided listeners with valuable tips for their own career advancements.

Upcoming NASPA Events

Additionally, the episode provided updates on upcoming NASPA events, such as the 2024 Leadership Educators Institute and the 2024 national conference. These gatherings represent the changing and elevating landscape of student affairs as professionals continue their journey.

Hing Potter's story is not just about the transitions within the professional sphere but also about personal growth and advocacy. It teaches us the profound impact of understanding institutional types, the art of negotiation, and the continuous pursuit of fostering student success.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]:
Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This Podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on SA Voices, we are pleased to welcome Heng Potter. Going into 11 years in student affairs, Heng Potter, he, him, main drive has been to support student development by creating space and opportunity through inclusion, empowerment, and self authorship. In his own state of transition this past fall, Hing became the new assistant director of student life and leadership at City College of San Francisco where he advises the Associated Students, overseas student clubs and orgs, and is responsible for the student union. As a Khmer Transracial Transnational Adoptee or TRA and having previous life and work in Seattle, Boise, New York City, San Jose, and now San Francisco, Heng is no stranger to transformative life experience and transitions from one place to the next.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:08]:
In the community. Heng serves on the leadership team of the San Francisco chapter of Project by Project, a national nonprofit focused on amplifying Asian American issues, and he also serves on the leadership team of the NASPA Asian Pacific Islander Knowledge Community or APIKC. In his own time, Hing enjoys travel, photography, and spending time with a 17 year old dachshund, Buster, and his partner, Jasmine. Ping, welcome to SA Voices.

Hing Potter [00:01:33]:
Hi. Thanks for having me here today.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:35]:
We're very glad to feature you today about your transition that is fairly fresh. By the time this episode airs, you'll have been in your new position for about 3 or for months. But right now, we're sitting at about the 60 day mark. And right now, before we get into all of the details of your transition, I'd love guests to start with how you got to your current seat.

Hing Potter [00:01:55]:
Yeah. Thank you so much again. Let's see. I came To City College of San Francisco because in my previous role, I felt like I had just outgrown myself. There wasn't much room for need to expand my professional skills or abilities. And I really just wanted to find a new challenge, a new way for me to interact with students, And I think it was just time for me to move on. So, you know, I did the whole thing where I put myself out there as best possible in different Formats apply to different colleges and universities, and City College of San Francisco is one of them, back in, I think, April time. And then I had a Couple interviews, 1 in the end of April and then 1 in the middle of May.

Hing Potter [00:02:35]:
That interview was all the way when I was vacationing in Spain, unforced I was actually on my way to my cousin's Wedding rehearsal dinner a hour before that. And I had, like, my laptop and everything on top of, like, this ironing board to give it elevation and stuff, And I met with the dean and the vice chancellor at that time. And then, over the summer, I eventually heard back by August. And 2 months later, I'm here. So that's, in a nutshell, what happened.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:02]:
And you physically moved as well. Yes? Moved cities?

Hing Potter [00:03:05]:
Kind of. Actually, if we wanna expand this whole transition period, when the pandemic hit in early 2020, that's when I had actually moved from New York City to San Jose, California, so South Bay Area. And that was when I also moved into that new position at my previous role. And then that was an experience in itself because I felt like maybe I was, like, one of the first people to actually move geographical locations in the early onset of Pandemic, and I had left pretty much all of my stuff in New York. I brought a suitcase with me of just clothes, and then I had to ask a friend back in New York to Muster up the courage and go to my apartment and, like, pack all my stuff and wear a face mask and tell her to, like, please take care of yourself. If you don't feel comfortable, Please don't do this. But if it you are able to, I would, like, be more than happy to, like, compensate you in some way, shape, or form. I'll even pay for the shipping, of course.

Hing Potter [00:03:57]:
And so she was actually very, very, very helpful, and I'm so much gratitude for her for shipping all my stuff out to me from New York to the Bay Area.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:05]:
That's a great friend.

Hing Potter [00:04:06]:
Yeah. Somebody who really went above and beyond the call of duty. And then fast forward a couple years Now from San Jose, I now live in kinda close by Stanford University in between Palo Alto, Menlo Park area. And I'm here with my partner and our little tiny 16 year old, dachshund. So his name is bust. Oh, senior doggy. Yes. He's a pandemic puppy.

Hing Potter [00:04:30]:
A couple years ago, my partner really, really, really, really wanted a dog, so We finally caved.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:36]:
So thinking about all of the transitions that you've gone through, and it's really not just this immediate transition, but Lots of transitions starting about 3, 4 years ago at this point. How did you prepare yourself mentally to throw yourself into new environments and new spaces and new collegial relationships when the world was kind of in upheaval.

Hing Potter [00:04:57]:
I think for me, coming from New York to the Bay Area, That was definitely a challenge because, you know, initially, I had asked if I could go from New York to my parents in Seattle. And they actually told me no, not because they don't love me, but because at that time, everybody's very nervous about the Pandemic, and my parents are 60 and over. And at that time, you know, elderly people wanna be cautious. And that also New York was One of the early epicenters of the pandemic. And so they actually told me no. I was devastated inside, and I didn't know exactly how I was gonna get out of New York. I didn't know how I was gonna to this new job that I had lined up for myself. I didn't know if it would be safe to fly.

Hing Potter [00:05:40]:
A lot of things were up in the air. So I must've got my own courage. I bought a ticket actually from New York to Idaho because I went to undergrad in Idaho, and I made a lot of good friends out there. And Idaho hadn't really been hit yet, So I called up my friends there and say, hey. I need a crash over there. Can I hang out with you for a little bit? They're like, yeah. Yeah. No problem.

Hing Potter [00:06:00]:
Stay as long as you need. Get yourself out of New York. Do what you need to do. So I went to Idaho, actually, and I was there for a whole month, April that year. And then my job was supposed to start in June, and so I needed to somehow then get from Idaho to the Bay Area. So then I ended up buying a car because I realized at that time the pandemic was just getting worse, and flying just wasn't an option anymore for me, Personally, I just didn't feel comfortable. And so I bought a car, and then I drove all the way from Idaho to the Bay Area. It's about maybe 10 hours or so Driving, and I got here.

Hing Potter [00:06:38]:
And in the whole mist of, like, trying to get from Idaho to the Bay Area, I found this guy on Craigslist who had a extra room in a bungalow house for pretty cheap. And I was like, hey. It's something he told me he that he keeps his place clean and sanitary, and then he takes all the COVID precautions at that time, and I had to trust him and just go with it. So I did that. And then I got there in May, had a couple weeks to just Chill and not do anything, like, literally not do anything because everybody's on shutdown, and I'm just twiddling my thumbs in front of my face trying to stay active somehow. And then 2 weeks later, I start on June 1st at my previous role and went from there. It was a wild, maybe two and a half months or so In that transition.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:20]:
So by comparison, your transition to your current position maybe seems a little more mild.

Hing Potter [00:07:25]:
It definitely. A little bit more mild, a little bit more easy to Navigate. I didn't necessarily have to, like, change states twice. I didn't have to figure out how to get from a to b buying a new car or anything. Or I have a car now. Thank goodness. And I can take public transportation, which is pretty nice. And City of College isn't that far from where I live now, where I as I used to work in San Jose, California.

Hing Potter [00:07:47]:
When you're now, I work in almost South San Francisco area, so not too much of a hassle there.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:51]:
Did you change functional areas?

Hing Potter [00:07:53]:
You could say that. Yes. So in my previous role, I was in student services, which is more comprehensive. It supported students, particularly graduate students, trying to help them with navigating everything From student involvement to student resources to crisis management, title 9 advocacy, and Overall student services operations, so making sure everything from new student orientation in their own transition into the university, All the way to commencement so they're transitioned out of the university. And here in my new role, I strictly just advise the associate student Councils. I support student clubs and organizations, and I'm responsible for the student union building. So a lot more, you know, defined role for me, a lot more Concentrated, which I appreciate, and a big pay bump for me. So I'm I'm happy about where I'm at right now.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:43]:
I believe you also shifted from private to 2 year public, which is, I think, a pretty big mentality shift in terms of how you approach the work every day. So tell us about that transition of environment.

Hing Potter [00:08:56]:
Oh my gosh. That is definitely something of a transition to experience. So I actually used to work in a public institution where I got to experience all that bureaucracy, barriers, and red tape, whatever you wanna call it. And then coming to My previous university as a private institution, you have a lot of leeway to kinda just do what you need to do. You have a lot more independent ability to make decisions and support your students in a more immediate manner. And I had my own university card, which was Super flexible in terms of, like, just making purchases and getting what we needed to have for our next event. You still set boundaries, of course, with their students So, like, hey. You gotta meet some timelines.

Hing Potter [00:09:37]:
I can't just go out tomorrow and get what you need for the next day, but it was a lot more flexible, I would say. And here coming back into the public sector, you definitely hit the wall really hard In terms of what is allowable in certain time frames and how you can get things done through different mechanisms. I also don't have a university or a college card anymore, so that's very interesting. And I actually had a a conversation with some students today. And Normally on Fridays, they get pizza for their meetings. And so this Friday, because it's their last meeting of the semester, they wanted to kinda have a little bit more of a Grandiose food invitation for people to come and join them. And they they honestly came up to me and said, hey, Heng. I know that this is really Awkward, but would you be willing to help us with, like, food and stuff? And I was like, well, what do you mean? Like, well, are you okay with putting this on your card, and we'll reimburse you? Like, Which is typical at this school.

Hing Potter [00:10:38]:
But in such a short period of time, I really had to just say, you know what? I can't do this. This is only a couple days notice, and you don't know if I have this money set aside personally for other things that I need to do. And I'm gonna be honest. Like, you guys need to prepare or plan ahead more in advance for something like this. You can't just make last minute adjustments. And the fact that you coming up to me saying, hey. Hey. This is really awkward, lets me know that you know you didn't plan well enough for quite a change in just 2 days.

Hing Potter [00:11:07]:
So There's that kind of mentality when it comes to how you get funds and resources or how you have to Plan ahead and think about what you wanna do. And at a private institution, you might be able to have a little bit more flexibility with last minute adjustments. But at a public institution, you kinda have to be committed. One of my previous roles when I was in New York at John Jay, all of our clubs had to Submit, for example, a whole year's worth, a calendar of events with budgets for each events, and that was due before classes started in the fall. And these were events all the way from September all the way to next May. And at at private school, you still have a year's worth of events planned out, but you don't have to Necessarily preallocate a whole bunch of stuff that far in advance. So a lot more flexibility in terms of, like, what you can and cannot do. So quickly learning that back here in the public sector on my own.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:00]:
Flexibility, but also budgetary privilege. So I think depending on the nature of your private institution, the funds are just unrestricted in different ways where they might be more restricted at a public institution, but also the privilege of the size of the budget Or the different things that you're doing. And it always hurts my heart to hear that a lot of times that students or individual Professionals are funding the work of the university and having it reimbursed. I think that's a business practice that is really challenging because it makes a lot of assumptions, and it also puts the labor on the people that are earning the least. It's just it's a challenging dynamic.

Hing Potter [00:12:37]:
Me and my new dean, we we talked about how where do we draw the line when it comes to like this. And is this really our problem in terms of using our personal funds, or how much of this is a college problem? The fact that the college doesn't have the mechanisms in place is not my issue, and it's not my dean's issue. It's, you know, the college's issue that They can't have systems where it's more streamlined and it's more beneficial and it's more immediate For the student experience. So that really does impact how they go around doing things. And I don't want students to be spending most of their Time when they're in these leadership roles or in they're in these student clubs trying to navigate these systems. That's not what being involved uninvolved student is about. I want them to be able to just do what they need to do, and institutions in general need to figure out what that is that they can do to kind of, like, break down those Barriers. Unfortunately, it might not always be a college issue.

Hing Potter [00:13:33]:
It could be a district wide issue, or it could be a state issue. And in different institutions, It could come down to, you know, the registrars or the bursars or whoever's controlling the money for the institution. It could be a specific department issue and a range of things, but Students shouldn't have to be navigating those those types of waters in the 1st place, I don't think.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:53]:
Other than the budgetary modeling and planning, what are the other differences that you're experiencing moving from private to public.

Hing Potter [00:14:01]:
Well, one of the things is that at my private institution that I was at, it was a 4 year institution. But I was working mostly with graduate students in tech. And now I'm working with community college students who Have a range of ages and a range of perspectives. And I was also formally more working mostly with international graduate Students. And now I'm working with mostly domestic US students. So that's kind of a shift in itself. Working with international students, you really had to Talk to them a lot more about culture and around how higher ed works in terms of different systems and processes to get their programming in place. Whereas at City College of San Francisco, the students are a little bit more intuitive about these processes because it's kind of built into the culture of, like, going to school and the stuff that my international students were doing, the graduate international students were Very more professional development focused, whereas the community college students, they're more about building culture.

Hing Potter [00:15:02]:
They're more about enriching this the campus experience. They're also doing a lot of they have this theme this year, informal theme of advocacy. So they're really trying to, like, source What are the issues on campus and how they're impacting students and what their role is in terms of advocating for a better experience when it comes to x, y, and z issues. So Whereas the international students, again, more professional development focused, not necessarily too concerned with the policies and issues that might that you might find at institution of of a 4 year institutions. Kinda some of those on the surface level differences for sure.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:37]:
I feel like a lot of Professionals spend most of their career in one type of institution, and you've done 4 year public, 4 year private, and now 2 year public. Kind of looking across all of those experiences. And to overgeneralize to a degree, what do you see as kind of the changes in Foci for you as a professional as you navigate these different types of institutions.

Hing Potter [00:16:00]:
I think, For me, the focus between we'll just generalize from a 4 year to a 2 year. The focus is at a 4 year institution, You have the ability to work with the students in a little bit more long term opportunity. You're working for example, when I was at John Jay, I'm working with these students who find themselves invested in in programming and involvement and leadership in a more long term plan. Whereas Here at City College, they wanna be done in 2 years. And so they wanna have action. They wanna have things get done a lot more quickly. But, again, kinda going back to the whole bureaucracy machine, how quickly that happens can be different. So it's like I was talking to a student actually the other day.

Hing Potter [00:16:47]:
We were talking about this whole three five seven plan. What do you wanna have normally happen in 3 years and 5 years and 7 years? And I had to work with the student to say, like, okay. Well, we're at a 2 year school. Instead of 357, what do you wanna have done maybe in, like, 2 semesters, in 3 semesters, and 4 semesters? Because by that time, now the question should be, what have you been able to do in terms of advocating for the student experience that you want? And when you walk away, What kind of legacy will you be proud to have left here at City College that you can say, I did that? Whereas at a 4 year institution, I'm I'm working with students. Not necessarily 357 again, but more of like, k. What do you wanna do in the 1st year, the 2nd year, 3rd year, and 4th year? So it's a little bit different planning, a little bit different, like, Thought process when I'm working with the students in that regard. How do

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:41]:
you plan for continuity and student leadership in a model that's much shorter in time frame?

Hing Potter [00:17:47]:
Oh my goodness. It really does come down, I think, to working with the students on that transition between leadership. So, for example, really working with the council that I have right now and saying, how are we building your council institutional knowledge, And how are we working to make sure that that knowledge is passed on to the next council in a transparent and clear way? What are you doing right now to make sure that if so and so person who follows you in your footsteps, When they pick up the work that you're doing, they can easily see, oh, okay. I have to now do steps 3, 4, and 5 because the last person did Steps 1 and 2. So it really comes down to that clear transparency of what they're doing now, how they're doing it, and Putting it together for, clearly, for the next group. One of the things that we actually talked about coincidentally today is communication. Not just communication between each other today, but communication between a theoretical group that's gonna take over next year And then that group that's gonna take over in 2 years. City College is building its new student success center.

Hing Potter [00:18:54]:
And one of the big projects that this council wants to have is this social justice mural that will go in the student success center. The building is not gonna be done for another, maybe, two and a half years. So by then, we'll be 2, maybe 3 councils down the road. What does that continuity look like between today and the council that looks To be there in place when the student success center actually comes online. So these are questions that I'm asking of them to consider as well.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:21]:
You've got this beautiful plan going forward, and we all know that with student leadership shifts, priorities change as well. How do you Think you're going to be navigating when the priorities of previous councils don't align with the future councils.

Hing Potter [00:19:36]:
I think the biggest thing when I'm working with students is really creating a mindset of student Advocacy, student experience, and this notion of student involvement that is meaningful And that is impactful. And so the focus of each council I think it's okay for it to change year over year if that's the case. But as long as it's still centered and rooted in enhancing the student experience or enhancing the Opportunities that students have to get involved and get engaged, grow their skill sets professionally and personally, then I think that's the core thing to to maintain. And that's something that I will always tell students regardless of how long I'm in this field. And that's something that I've always told students for the 10 years that I've been in this field is that priorities change, and that's totally fine. And my job isn't necessarily to tell students what their priorities should be. My job is to tell them, Hey. Your priorities are great.

Hing Potter [00:20:36]:
They make sense that they're sustainable. But as long as they're rooted in the ability for students to grow themselves. I think that's the most important factor there.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:46]:
Let's back up a little bit and talk about you as a human doing all of these transitions. So you've created what sounds like a really great game plan for yourself for the next couple of semesters in this new position. But what other factors did you need to be thinking about about entering a new role, especially knowing that the institutional type was going to be a new environment for you.

Hing Potter [00:21:07]:
Personally, for me, before I came to City College, One of the requirements for me was that I needed them to honor my 2 week vacation that I had that I just came back from a couple weeks ago when I went to Asia. And if they didn't do that, then that was gonna be a deal breaker. And so luckily for me, they said yes. Like, no worries. We'll make it work. We definitely wanna respect that. Another thing for me was just making sure that my own value was seen and met In terms of the abilities that I bring to the table, but also the lifestyle that I wanted to maintain or grow myself. So in terms of, like, a salary, I had to really learn how to advocate.

Hing Potter [00:21:46]:
This is my 1st time advocating for a salary that I wanted, a salary that I knew that I deserved. I think, City College, they they have this grade step program where I think it's, like, grades 1 through 12 or something. And they posted this position as grade 1, so they were gonna offer me grade 1. And me knowing what I know, how long I've been in the field, I knew that I was not at that value. So I also felt a little bit like, okay. Grade 1 is entry level. You know? I'm I'm justifying these reasons for why I'm not a grade one person. Grade one is entry level.

Hing Potter [00:22:23]:
I'm well beyond entry level. I have a better understanding of the student experience At multiple different types of institutions, coast to coast, I'm not grade one value. So I actually had to write this out in an email to them to the HR office. And I, you know, came to them with all these points. And the next day, they gave me a call, and I said, Hey. How's it going? And they said, well, we wanted to talk to you about your salary. And I was like, okay. Well, first, before you say anything, I'm sorry.

Hing Potter [00:22:51]:
But before you say anything, Did you get my email? Yes. We got your email. Okay. Great. And I wanted to ask that because it's super important that we start there because that is what's important to me. That is where I see my value. And what can you offer me based upon me being in student affairs for 10 years, me having all this different and the fact that you came to me asking me to come to City College. And so they actually bumped me up 3 or 4 grades more, which was An extra almost $20,000.

Hing Potter [00:23:23]:
So when they offered me that, I was like, okay. Now we're talking. Like, I can come to City College now. So it was a lot of anxiety. It was I was really nervous when I'm typing this email out to HR. My fingers were sweating, and I had never really been Taught or told how to write an email out like this or or anything? I mean, people tell you all the time, know your worth. Know what your value is. And I honestly think, you know, it is easier said than done to, like, give this advice to people.

Hing Potter [00:23:52]:
But when the person who's receiving that advice takes it, Yes. You can receive it. But then when it comes time to execute it, it's a whole another story. Like, you now have to do something that you might not ever have done before. You might have to do something that another person that looks like me, a brown Asian person, might not have ever done before. And so I share this story now because I think it's super important that I have now lived this experience. I have written that email. I've Had that tough conversation with HR to say, this is a deal breaker.

Hing Potter [00:24:23]:
If you don't see my value, don't recognize me for what I bring to the table, then I don't know if I can come to City College. Luckily enough for me, they saw that and were able to give me what I wanted.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:33]:
And I think that's great advice. And, also, it sounds like you were willing to walk away if that was necessary.

Hing Potter [00:24:39]:
I'll be completely honest. I wasn't necessarily happy at my previous role because, as I said, there was no growth you did for me there. I wasn't doing the creative work that I love doing anymore there because I just didn't have the opportunities to to banned. But if City College didn't see my worth or my value, I sadly was going to stay at my previous role and suck it up because It just wasn't something that I really wanted to fight for, to go to battle for. I was making the self conscious decision that Even though I wasn't growing, I still loved the students. And I don't think anybody I'm not saying to do what I do or Think about what I think about, but it's a really sad situation, I think, when people are put into those situations. And having to decide whether you You wanna stay at a place where you have no growth, but you love the students or having to potentially go somewhere else where they might see your value, but you don't know what you're getting yourself into. So it's it's a tricky field to navigate.

Hing Potter [00:25:41]:
And regardless of who you are, I wouldn't wish that on anybody. It just happened to turn out in my favor for me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:47]:
We haven't talked a ton about salary negotiation on the show, and I think you've offered some really important tips. Let me repackage them just really concisely for folks who are trying to negotiate for themselves and have never done it before. Step 1 is to compare your resume and your experiences with the job description and really note where you meet and where you exceed those minimum qualifications and those preferred qualifications because that's gonna be your starting point for arguing for more money. It's not really an argument, a negotiation. And I think step 2 is, Ping said it really well, you need to be working with HR, not necessarily the hiring manager, depending on who's making the offer, and it is typically coming from the HR perspective. Sometimes you're gonna run up against a budgetary limitation where there's only so much budgeted for the position and there's not flexibility, and that's something you need to be prepared to here. And sometimes you're going to be in a position like Hain was where your experiences are clearly articulated in a way that the budgetary Alignment wasn't there from the starting spot and you can get there together to an ending spot. But I think another important thing is to depersonalize it a little bit.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:54]:
So instead of saying, can you offer x? Perhaps can x institution offer this amount of money? And so you're asking what the institution can do, not what the person can do. And that can depersonalize it a little bit and make it really more about the business perspective about what's happening in your salary negotiation. The 3rd piece of advice that I heard from Hing is make sure you do it in writing at first. And then beyond that, you can have that negotiation conversation on the phone. But getting it out in writing also gives both parties a chance to really be reflective and think about things. And that way, it's also not a pressured environment for either party, and no one is kind of at liberty to respond in the moment. They can both go back and take some time. Did I miss any tips from you, Heng?

Hing Potter [00:27:37]:
No. That was very well, succinctly said for me. Appreciate it. The only other thing that I would Definitely recommend is that when you do go into a different institution and you start looking at how their salaries are structured is really becoming knowledgeable about their pay grade systems and how it works. The California Community College System is a beast, And I wouldn't know where to look because I don't know the system that well. But when I had started looking at the salary options and things like that, A really good friend of mine, doctor Dawn Li from San Jose State University, she had previous experience in the community college system and really gave me some good advice and helped me to navigate some of these intricacies when it comes to payroll structures and how to word things and how to really advocate for yourself. So I really wanna just give a shout out to her and give her all the things and and being able to support me. So having somebody, you know, with that experience in Whatever system you are looking potentially to go into, that's another plus on your half if you can get that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:42]:
It's time to take a quick Break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:48]:
Thanks so much, Jill. Really excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there is So much going on as we continue to move into 2024. The 2024 Leadership Educators Institute is from December 9th through 11th in Philadelphia. Make sure to save that date because the Leadership Educators Institute or LEI provides a unique Opportunity for all professional levels within our field to engage in critical dialogue to promote positive, sustainable change on their campuses. LEI is a partnership between NASPA, ACPA, College Student Educators International, and the National Clearing House for leadership programs. Go to the NASBA website under events for more information. If you are planning to attend the 2024 national conference in Seattle, Washington from March 9th through 13th. There's a number of things that you need to know.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:42]:
Make sure to check your email because you're getting dates sent to you on a regular basis. There are still opportunities to sign up the volunteer at NASPA 2024. So if you're interested in helping to make this year's conference amazing, make sure to sign up today to be able to Find some time to volunteer at as a part of this amazing conference. Volunteering is a fantastic way to support the conference, serve your colleagues, And make this year's event the best it can possibly be. As I said, an email has been sent out with a sign up that you can use to be able to find a time that works best for your schedule, and I encourage you to take advantage of that right away. Recently, Aku Oai, the placement exchange in NASPA released a joint statement with some exciting news about the placement exchange. They've developed a brand new brand identity, a new website, revamped resources, and enhanced Services. If you haven't checked it out yet, I encourage you to check out the newly redesigned website at www Dot the placement exchange, all one word, .org.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:51]:
Though TPE is gonna look a little bit different and feel a little bit different, They are elevating their game to be able to do what they can to be able to assist all of us as professionals in our own professional journey. So check out the placement exchange today to find out more about what TPE can offer you in the journey that you're on. I also wanted to let you know about a Free event that is happening called well-being in higher education, raising literacy and advancing the conversation. Join over 20 higher education associations As they come together in dialogue around well-being. Now this buzzword is seemingly everywhere, But what does it really mean? Why does it matter? And how can we each contribute to this critical work? Well-being in higher education, raising literacy, and Dancing the Conversation is a free virtual event taking place February 26th through March 1st. The well-being in higher education event is One of the outcomes of the health and well-being in higher education, a commitment to student success, and will help Put the inter association well-being definition into practice. Registration details and a more detailed schedule of sessions is available on the NASPA website. So go to the NASPA website today to find out more about this amazing free professional development event.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:14]:
Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So We are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because The association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be Getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, It's important to be able to identify for yourself. Where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that We will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will Provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, To offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents and to all of the members within the association because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:34]:
Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:39]:
Chris, thank you so much for another excellent NASPA world segment. We really appreciate you keeping us stated on what's going on in and around in NASPA. And, Heng, we have reached the part of the show where we do our lightning round, and I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. You ready?

Hing Potter [00:33:55]:
Let's do it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:56]:
Alright. Question 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music

Hing Potter [00:34:03]:
to be. Maybe, Get Low by, Lil Jon and the Yingying Twins.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:06]:
Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew

Hing Potter [00:34:10]:
A pilot. An airline pilot, hands down.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:13]:
Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Hing Potter [00:34:16]:
I would say my housing director From when I was in ResLife as a resident assistant back in Seattle, Luke Botstein from Edmonds College.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:27]:
Number 4, your essential student affairs read.

Hing Potter [00:34:30]:
At the moment, the NASPA conference 2024 website because I'm trying to stay up on today on that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:36]:
Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic.

Hing Potter [00:34:39]:
I rewatched The West Wing, I think, for the 6th or 7th time, and then I'm also a Trekkie, so I watched Star Trek The Next Generation, then Deep Space Nine, and then Voyager.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:49]:
Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Hing Potter [00:34:53]:
Probably a toss-up between the The Daily, I think it is, and then the NPR Politics podcast in the afternoon.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:59]:
And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional?

Hing Potter [00:35:03]:
Definitely wanna give a shout out to my friends on the API KCL looking forward to a 2024 conference experience that's gonna be amazing with you all. And then also specifically to my My awards and recognition co chairs Jerome and Justin. So really appreciate being with you all. And then, of course, Wanna give a shout out lastly to my best and favorite director ever out there in New York City, doctor Danielle Officer at John Jay College.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:33]:
Ping, it's been a pleasure to hear about your transition today. If others would like to reach you after the show, how can they grab you?

Hing Potter [00:35:39]:
Send me a DM or Follow me on Instagram at Hing d Potter or threads. I guess that's the new thing these days. Feel free to follow me on threads.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:48]:
Hing, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today.

Hing Potter [00:35:50]:
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me again. Really appreciate it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:56]:
This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with to the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill Elcraton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a five a star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's to profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor to Chris Lewis.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:44]:
Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

This week on the SA Voices From The Field Podcast we bring you Angelina Jenkins, Assistant Director with Initiatives for Identity, Inclusion, & Belonging (i3b) for The Mosaic: Center for Cultural Diversity at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County. We are excited to explore her own professional journey as a mid level professional to doctoral student while also balancing and supporting her own multiple identities and what has helped her to become the person she is today.

Angelina Jenkins (she/her/hers), originally from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania is a proud bi-racial, multi-ethnic Asian American woman and daughter of a South Korean immigrant. She integrates these aspects of her identity into celebrating authenticity and culture while also exploring the journey of building an understanding of self-empowerment. She works with students, staff/faculty, and community members to cultivate an inclusive learning and healing environment through the celebration of culture and identity. Angelina is currently the Assistant Director with Initiatives for Identity, Inclusion, & Belonging (i3b) for The Mosaic: Center for Cultural Diversity at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County. She is also in her first year of doctoral studies, pursuing a Ph.D. at The University of Maryland in the Higher Education, Student Affairs, and International Education Policy program. Angelina currently serves as one of the 2023-2025 Asian Pacific Islanders Promoting Educational eXcellence (APPEX) Coordinators for the NASPA APIKC Leadership Team.

As we step into the year 2024, Dr. Jill Creighton and Dr. Christopher Lewis are excited to bring you Season 10 of SA Voices from the Field! In this episode, the hosts reflect on our journey, celebrating the four-year anniversary of collaborating on the show and the immense impact it has had on the community.

Embracing Transitions

Dr. Creighton and Dr. Lewis highlighted the success of the previous season, which centered on transitions in student affairs. They expressed their enthusiasm for the overwhelming response from guests and listeners, prompting them to continue exploring this critical theme in the upcoming season. The decision to extend the focus on transitions demonstrates the importance of understanding and navigating the multifaceted experiences of professionals in student affairs. Diverse Perspectives on Transitions The hosts emphasized the diversity of transitions covered in the previous season, ranging from personal and professional life transitions to national and international relocations. This diversity underscored the multifaceted nature of transitions experienced by individuals within the student affairs community. By acknowledging and amplifying these diverse voices, the podcast fosters a more inclusive dialogue on the challenges and triumphs associated with transitions.

The Power of Storytelling

A key takeaway from the episode was the power of storytelling in engendering understanding and empathy. Dr. Creighton and Dr. Lewis expressed gratitude to the guests who shared their transition stories, emphasizing the impact of these narratives in enriching the collective knowledge of the student affairs community. By amplifying these stories, the podcast serves as a platform for professionals to learn from each other's experiences and gain insights into managing transitions effectively.

Engaging the Community

The hosts extended an invitation for the audience to actively participate in the upcoming season by sharing their transition stories. This call to action emphasizes the inclusive and participatory nature of the podcast, empowering listeners to contribute their voices to the ongoing dialogue. By featuring the community's stories, the podcast not only expands its content but also strengthens the sense of camaraderie and support among student affairs professionals.

Connecting at Conferences

Dr. Creighton and Dr. Lewis expressed anticipation for engaging with the audience at an upcoming conference in Seattle. They highlighted the significance of in-person connections and the opportunity to gather further insights from the community. The podcast's commitment to engaging with professionals in live settings underscores its dedication to fostering meaningful connections and continuously learning from the community.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]:
Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 9 on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, And I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. It's 2024, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:25]:
It is. It's amazing. I can't believe that it hits already 2024.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:29]:
We were just talking about this in our preshow conversation, But this will actually mark the 4 year anniversary of us collaborating on this show.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:39]:
I can say that I never would have expected that we would have Kept going for 4 years, but it has been an amazing ride. We've learned so much from so many of our guests, and it's been so much fun.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:50]:
I am Very proud of the work that we've put out over the last couple of years. And this last season, season 9 on transitions has really been a popular one in terms of guests wanting to come on the show and people asking to hear more about these spaces. So for season 10, which feels fitting because it's on our anniversary of the show year. We're actually gonna just kinda keep it rolling, which we've never done before. We've never done a double season on 1 theme, But we felt like there were a lot more stories still to tell in this transition space.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:23]:
Everyone's transition is so different. And we heard that in this season, in season 9, but so many people, like you said, came out of the woodwork and were like, I wanna tell my story. I wanna tell my story. So We are so excited to be able to continue to share these stories, and we wanna hear from you too because as we move into the conference, we're gonna be talking to you there. As we look at other aspects, we just encourage you to reach out and talk to us and share some of the stories that you have because The more that we all can share these stories, the more that we can learn, grow, and have better transitions as we move into other Positions, other jobs, other opportunities that may present themselves to us in the years to come.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:06]:
When we talk to people with transitions in both personal life and professional life, and national life, and we welcome all of those. Some of you became parents. Some of you dealt with health transitions. Some of you transitioned parts of the country. Some of you transition countries, and many of you had a lot of great advice on how other professionals can learn from your experiences in transitions. So coming this February, we'll be back with our 10th season of essay voices from the field continuing our theme of on transitions in student affairs. And, again, as Chris mentioned, if you happen to be in Seattle, we can't wait to see you. We will be bringing our many pocket recorders with us again, and we'll have questions for you to feature your voice on the show.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:52]:
This has been an episode of SA voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at sa voices at NASPA.org or or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show, and please like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:32]:
This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill L. Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis, guest coordination by Liu Yongru. Special thanks to the University of Michigan in Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In a this week's episode of SA Voices From The Field, guest Omar Mehdi shared his inspiring journey from being a student at the American University of Kuwait (AUK) to returning as the Director of Student Life. Throughout his discussion, he highlighted his experiences of personal and professional growth, the challenges of transitioning from a student to a professional supervisor, and the cultural shifts he faced as an international student in the United States.

Navigating Change and Professional Growth

Omar Mehdi's story is a testament to the transformative power of embracing change and pursuing new experiences. After completing his Master's in Leadership and Higher Education at the University of San Diego, Omar ventured into the corporate world, gaining valuable real-world experience outside the traditional university setting. His time in the business world provided him with a fresh perspective on decision-making, financial management, and the cultivation of a new professional network.

From Player to Supervisor

Lessons in Leadership Returning to AUK as the Director of Student Life, Omar Mehdi faced the unique challenge of transitioning from being under the direction of coaches to becoming their supervisor. His experiences of making difficult decisions and managing transitions within the sports program shed light on the complexities of leadership and the importance of personality and character in navigating such transitions successfully. 

Reflection and Communication in Student Affairs

Throughout his journey, Omar credits his ability to reflect and communicate his feelings to his university program. Initially finding the concept challenging, he came to realize the immense benefit of personal reflection and open communication, particularly when addressing difficult decisions and managing personnel changes. Omar's experience underscores the value of emotional intelligence and self-awareness in the field of student affairs, serving as a guiding light for aspiring professionals.

Embracing Diversity as an International Student

As an international student in the United States, Omar faced a range of challenges, including culture shock, visa issues, and a steep learning curve. His insights into the significance of listening to and understanding the diverse needs and backgrounds of international students highlight the importance of cultural sensitivity and awareness in creating inclusive and supportive environments within higher education institutions.

Impactful Advice for Student Affairs Professionals

Omar's journey and reflections offer invaluable advice for those pursuing careers in student affairs. His emphasis on the significance of personal and professional growth, the value of emotional intelligence, and the need to listen to and understand the diverse needs of students resonates deeply with the mission of creating inclusive and supportive campus communities.

Inspiring Change and Transformation

Omar's story serves as an inspiration for those navigating shifts in their professional paths, urging individuals to embrace change, seek new experiences, and recognize the transformative power of diverse experiences. His impact as the Director of Student Life at AUK reflects a commitment to fostering meaningful student experiences and impacting lives within the academic environment.

In conclusion, Omar Mehdi's journey from student to supervisor embodies the spirit of growth, resilience, and the pursuit of meaningful impact within the field of student affairs. His reflections on leadership, personal growth, and embracing diversity serve as a beacon of inspiration for professionals and students alike, underscoring the profound impact of transformative experiences within higher education.

This serves as a reminder of the power of personal and professional growth, the importance of cultural sensitivity, and the transformative potential of navigating change with resilience and grace. Omar Mehdi's journey stands as a testament to the possibilities that unfold when one embraces diverse opportunities and the journey of lifelong learning within the vibrant tapestry of student affairs.

Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]:

Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season nine on transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your essay Voices from the Field, host today on SA Voices, are pleased to bring you back to the Middle East, to the country of Kuwait to meet Omar Mehdi. Omar graduated from the American University of Kuwait with a BBA in Management in 2012 and then an Ma in Leadership in Higher Education from the University of San Diego in 2014. Omar returned to Auk in 2014 as the Sports Coordinator in the Office of Student Life and then in 2016 was promoted to Senior Coordinator for Sports in 2019, became the Assistant Director of the Office of Student Life, and then left the world of Student Affairs in 2020 to return in 2023 as the Director of the Office of Student Life.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:00]:

I hope you enjoy getting to know Omar. Omar Mehdi, welcome to the show.

Omar Mehdi [00:01:05]:

Thank you very much. I'm very happy to be here and very happy to join you, Jill. Thank you for inviting me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:11]:

It's a wonderful thing to be able to continue our tradition of having guests from all over the world on SA Voices. And will you let our listeners know where we're speaking from today?

Omar Mehdi [00:01:21]:

So we are speaking live from Kuwait.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:24]:

Excellent. And Omar works with a previous guest, Paula, who was on our International Voices season. Listeners, I'm also going to let you know that I'm a little under the weather as we record today, so my audio quality might just be a little bit different than what you're used to. But please bear with us as we I'm sure the conversation will be just as rich, just with a little bit of a deeper voice today. Omar, we love to start our shows by getting to know our guests, and you have one of the most interesting transitions on our season because you've gone from being a student at your university, american University of Kuwait, all the way through becoming the Director of Student Life. So can you tell us about that journey?

Omar Mehdi [00:02:02]:

Yes, it is very interesting to be a student in this university and then graduate from it, come back and work here. My path into this world of student affairs came by chance. I didn't expect that I would graduate and work in the field when I was a student at Auk at the American University of Kuwait. One of the admissions counselors who helped me get into Auk recommended working on campus, be a student employee, and she recommended me to the Office of Student Life because I wanted a job and I had time and why not? I started working at Office Student Life back then. And Then back then, the Dean Of Student Affairs, dr. Carol Ross, and The Director Of Student Life, Damien Medina, were I think they just started the nuff program, NASFA, and they recommended it to me. They like, Listen, if you're interested, this is a unique opportunity to be an undergraduate, a student who gets to know more about what we do and why we do it. I was passionate about working in general, and the fact that they gave me an opportunity to work got me into it.

Omar Mehdi [00:02:55]:

And then I did the nuff program, traveled to Philadelphia back then, where the NASA annual conference was, we did the pre conference with enough group. It was the first time I go to the US. And it was the first time I go to a real conference, not a small conference for undergraduates. It was one which is with professionals and opened up my eyes to realize that the three people that work in the office life at the American University of Kuwait are part of a much bigger group of people that do this. So to see the size, the scale, the number of people that have the same title but work across the US. Canada and more, it was huge for me. I was lucky that the speakers at the Nuff pre conference were outstanding. We had I forget the name of the title of the book, but the strengths, the five strengths.

Omar Mehdi [00:03:35]:

So that you do this quiz at the end of the book and they give you the five strengths. They brought the speaker.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:40]:

It was really cool for Gallup strength.

Omar Mehdi [00:03:43]:

Yes. And he was really cool, very engaging. So it was a very enriching experience for me. And then after it, I started considering doing a Master's degree in the field in the Division of Student Affairs. I was lucky enough to be admitted and selected for the Student Affairs program at the University of San Diego. So at USD, I did my Master's in Leadership and Higher Education. And the beauty of that program is that you get to have your graduate assistantship with the coursework, too. So again, I was very lucky.

Omar Mehdi [00:04:15]:

And you'll notice this is like a pattern in my path. I've always been lucky with the people I work with. Assistant director back then, danielle Nelman and the other assistant director, Stephanie, and the Director of the center for Student Success. All of them were excellent mentors. All of them allowed me to be this little kid who comes from Kuwait who just graduated undergrad right to his masters, have very little experience in the real world to learn, make mistakes, grow and develop. The year and a half I spent USD was, I think, pushed me at least five years ahead than I used to think that I would by the time I graduate. And then I came back. Luckily, there was a position available at American University of Kuwait.

Omar Mehdi [00:04:55]:

So I started as a sports coordinator as a student. I was a student athlete, too, so I was a captain of soccer team. I was in the basketball team. I was in the volleyball team, I was in the table tennis team. So I was very well versed with our program student athlete. But now I came in as a coordinator, I was lucky that the position was available. I started there and then moved into the senior coordinator for sports, then assistant director. I took a sabbatical or a break from student affairs.

Omar Mehdi [00:05:17]:

I left in 2020, just before COVID to work in a corporate world for three years there, and then came back February 2023. So the beginning of this year back to a UK as the Director of Student Life. And that's how I got here.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:29]:

You didn't take the worst three years off of the profession.

Omar Mehdi [00:05:32]:

Let me tell you again, I was lucky. It was a troubling time for every industry in the world. But to navigate to support students, and how to offer students an experience into a digital one is a very difficult one. And like every country in the world, kuwait was very unsettled at that point, and we didn't know what was happening. We don't know how long this is going to take. When do we go back? So I left just before COVID and came back just after COVID. So when Hybrid was done, online was done, I came back. So I never got to see university through a COVID experience.

Omar Mehdi [00:06:02]:

I never got to do that, which maybe I'm lucky, but the three years that I was away from the university's industry, I had to also participate or try to offer the company I worked for as much support as I can to the staff and clients that we had.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:17]:

What made you want to depart the field during that time?

Omar Mehdi [00:06:20]:

So I graduated with a bachelor's in Business Management, and the position I moved out of the Auk to go to was one in the business field. It was a great opportunity to test something new, try something different. As you know, as great as it is to work in student affairs and to work in a university, I graduated from Auk. I went for a few years to the States, to two years in the States, came back and worked in Auk. I didn't know anything outside of Auk, which has a lot of advantages in the job because I know it really well. But as a person, as an individual, to grow, you have to kind of leave your comfort zone. You have to leave what you're used to and you have to try something different. I was lucky to in the three years that I was there, I was lucky to learn so much.

Omar Mehdi [00:06:58]:

And I think I came back as a much stronger candidate for the position than if I was promoted from assistant Director automatically to the director. In the three years I've learned so much about the real world when it comes to working with people that are not just students, they don't have to be here. They can choose to pay somewhere else and go because I work in the gyms industry. So it's a month to month relationship. They can choose next month to leave you. So what you work on, how you develop a relationship with them, is very different to I have a whole semester with you, at least if not four or five, six years. So I came back, as I said, as a much stronger candidate for the position. And I can add so much to what I do through both experiences in student affairs and outside.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:37]:

What inspired you to come back into student affairs and specifically back to Auk after having that business experience?

Omar Mehdi [00:07:44]:

The inspiration always comes back to I love what I do in student affairs and I love the field. And I always thought, listen, I'll change the world one student at a time, just let me graduate from USD and the world will never be the same because I want to change the world. You do mature. You do realize it's not that as easy as it sounds, but there's a very different mindset. And I enjoyed my job outside of Auk. There's a very different hat you wear and a very different mindset that you have when you work in a business and you care about financials, you care about bottom line. And there's a very different mindset to trying to create experiences for students to develop, to grow, and to learn from the worries that you have. The concentration, the focus is very different.

Omar Mehdi [00:08:22]:

Going back to trying to build programs or trying to build an experience for students to better themselves, to learn to experience new things, is always something that has attracted me. And that's why when I knew the job was available, I automatically applied to it because I knew this is something I'd love to go back to. And to add to that, I've always done it from a sports perspective. I've always done it as a sports coordinator and then a senior sports coordinator, and then to be able to do it at a director level where I can impact or influence policies or programs at more than just sports. So under our department, we have athletics, we have clubs and organizations, code of conduct, student employment, we have a bunch of facilities that we're in charge of, the lounge, courts and so on. And to be able to influence more than just one aspect of student life is something that excites me to come back to.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:12]:

You said something interesting earlier, which is that you brought back skills that you didn't have before based on the business experience you had. What are some of those skills that you gained while you were out working in corporate world that have really served you well coming into this role as director of Student life?

Omar Mehdi [00:09:26]:

Absolutely. So many one of the things that comes to mind very quickly is the change in network. So in network and student affairs, most of us do very similar jobs and open up very similar paths for each other because we're in the same industry. However, when you go to a different industry, your network suddenly changes and you network with a lot of different industries. And coming back knowing so many different having new ties and having new networks is something that was very valuable, I think, for me so far. A lot of the students have ideas but don't know where to go and don't know who to talk to. A lot of clubs and organizations want to reach out to organizations in Kuwait where they may be too busy and so on. But knowing individuals in It can open up doors and open up channels for them.

Omar Mehdi [00:10:08]:

That's one thing for sure. Another thing in the directorship position you have to assume responsibilities. You don't. As a coordinator, when I left Auk, I was the chief operating officer. So as a chief operating officer in a company, your HR manager reports to you, the finance manager reports to you. Understanding how those moving pieces work and the rationale behind them is something I didn't have in the past. So coming back to now as a director, I understand budgeting at a different perspective. I understand hiring at a different perspective.

Omar Mehdi [00:10:36]:

I understand scale at a different perspective. In the company I used to work in too, we'd organize nationwide events where, for example, there'd be thousands of people that attend our events. Whereas Auk total is 2000 something students. So to understand scalability is something what was new to me. I was used to the same scale. I was used to the exact same scale. As a student here, I graduated, I worked here. USD provided that too.

Omar Mehdi [00:10:59]:

But coming back here was easy. It wasn't something new to me. So understanding that planning at a different scale is something else and assuming responsibility and making hard decisions during COVID at such an executive position at a company where you have to choose to either let go of people, change contracts and so on, and then to move back to a decision making position where it's not as serious as decisions that we make. I'm never going to choose to close a branch or open up a branch. As a director of student life, I'm never going to choose. And this directly impacts people's livelihood. The decisions that we do here I can take a lot lighter than in the past position that I had, which gave me a lot of perspective too.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:35]:

You've also come back to an environment where you mentioned this was kind of the main environment that you knew as an adult, right? You were a student there, you grew up in the sports environment there. Talk to us about the transition of going from student at the institution to professional and how your relationships with people at Auk needed to change at that time.

Omar Mehdi [00:11:54]:

Absolutely. This may sound very interesting to the audience. So when I was a student. I came into Auk in fall 2008 and I graduated spring 2012. In the four years that I was there, the law in Kuwait was that universities had to be segregated gender wise. So I would come to Auk. It is a mixed university with gender segregated classes, naturally, that influenced and changed the dynamics between the genders and between all of campus life. So I leave to the states, I come back, and this law has changed.

Omar Mehdi [00:12:23]:

And now classes are mixed naturally. This changes the overall atmosphere and the campus culture. So even today, which is a mixed culture, the university experience that the students are having today is very different to the one I was having simply because of that. Naturally, as I age and the gap gets bigger between me and the incoming students and the students on campus. So although they're the similar buildings, the exact same buildings, it's the same culture, sorry, it's the same colors, it's the same some of the same employees, some of the same staff, but the culture has shifted completely when I even speak to students today. The university I went to is a very different university that they went to simply because of the way we were. The life that we lived was a very different one. However, I did come back as a young employee.

Omar Mehdi [00:13:05]:

I was 24, and some of the students, especially the nontraditional ones, were close to my age, if not older. I did come back and found some of the students who I was friends with who are still students. The nature of the position that I had because I was a sports coordinator, you tend to be the fun guy. You're not like there to discipline, you're not charged for code of conduct. So it was easy to be the young guy on campus because you're the sports guy. So you're friends with all the players, you're friends with all the coaches, you're doing the fun stuff. However, I think one of the first things that I had to do, and I think it made me a better professional today, is right off the bat, I had to discipline athletes. So I do have to stick to a GPA requirement when selecting students.

Omar Mehdi [00:13:45]:

I do have to enforce these laws. I do have to make sure that their behavior in the team practice and so on is held to a certain standard. Doing it at an age where you're very young to them can cause a lot more conflict and friction, whereas if you're much older, maybe because of simply your age, there can be an assumed authority to your personality that they succumb to. But I think especially that I was balancing doing that meanwhile, while being the supervisor or the person in charge of all the coaches who are all older than and a few of them were my coaches too. And I've had to let go of one of them. Who? Once upon a time, I used to play for them. And now I have to let them go. So those experiences are very, very sticky and uncomfortable.

Omar Mehdi [00:14:25]:

And forcing myself to go through them and not backing down, I think have made me more confident moving forward.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:31]:

Let's talk about that transition with that one person specifically, where you're going from being under their direction as a coach to being their leader as a supervisor. How did you navigate the shift in that relationship?

Omar Mehdi [00:14:44]:

So I had two coaches that I played for and then ended up coming back and becoming their supervisor. In the first year that I was back, I had to let go of one of them. The second year I was back, I had to let go of the second one. I think the first one was, I think, a rough transition. That person didn't take it well, didn't take me offering pointers about how they do their job well, them not taking my feedback seriously, although it sounded serious, although I tried to do it in a serious setting. In the first year I worked at Auk, I'd also dress more professionally just to put that boundary and standard between me and the students and the people that report to me. However, they still never took it that seriously. And when it came to a point in time where we can no longer continue, they never reacted really well.

Omar Mehdi [00:15:23]:

I also think if I were to do it today, I would have done things a lot differently. I have learned in the past, unfortunately, 20 years of working. But the point I'm trying to make is the second time I was able to do it, the personality of the person that I had to ask to step down from the position was a lot more accepting of their mistakes and faults. I also learned that sometimes, even if because you can be really hard on yourself, on the approach because if it doesn't turn out to be as smooth as you hope for it, you also realize that it's not always only on the setting that you put. The other person plays a role. And the character and the personality that you are dealing with is a variable to the situation. So the second situation went a lot smoother, and that person, although they were let go, they were appreciated by the team, the university, they were given a farewell gift and so on. Whereas the first one, it was more storming out.

Omar Mehdi [00:16:09]:

Never want to talk to you again. This is ridiculous. I had to play it back. Driving back home and you're in the shower, you think about what they said. You know, these moments in your life where you think about these difficult situations where if you were to go back, you'd say some things differently.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:21]:

Can you tell us more about what it meant for you to reflect on it and go through your own growth process?

Omar Mehdi [00:16:28]:

Luckily, because of the program that I was in in the university of San Diego. Reflection was huge. Reflection is huge in the process, and it's very embedded in the coursework that we do, coming from the background and atmosphere I came from in Kuwait. To go to USD and try to reflect on my own life was a very new skill. I have never reflected my life to be especially publicly too, there were situations where you would have to publicly reflect and you have to talk about what your reflections look like because that's how the setting is made in the classroom. And because it was very difficult. And by the time I graduated, I actually was able to do this. Now I'm able to reflect, get in touch with my feelings and vocalize how I feel and communicate what I need, what I'm feeling, what I'm learning was a huge advantage for me in the program.

Omar Mehdi [00:17:14]:

It's one of the main things I actually walked away with that I still use today. And it's something I practice in my positions that I've had. But in that period of time, it's interesting because at that point in time, you do reflect on how the words that are said or things that are communicated in the meeting may bruise your ego or bruise your authority and you want to defend it. The first reaction you may have is, I want to defend my ego and defend my authority, and I need to put my foot down. And because in that room I am the younger person. I am the person that not too long ago, I used to be your player, I'd had to be a lot more diplomatic and let go of the bruising that was happening to the ego and the position and the authority. So reflecting on maybe I could have been more aggressive. Reflecting on what if I did this, what would have happened? Maybe thinking I should have made it short and sweet.

Omar Mehdi [00:18:02]:

I shouldn't have maybe gone through an entire meeting with time, unfortunately, I've had several situations where I've had to let go of people. I've been able to maybe see the mistakes that I've done in that meeting and then not repeat them in the future situations, unfortunately, that I've had. But in that period of time where I was going through it, it was difficult because it was a very aggressive meeting. It wasn't a good situation. In the back of your mind, you keep circling back to the because you could have said this and you could have done this. And maybe you think, and this is a person that I don't necessarily have bad feelings towards you. I just don't think you're the right person for this job. But because I was your player, I do have a fond memory of you.

Omar Mehdi [00:18:41]:

And now that's ruined because now you think I'm a horrible monster who's let you go. But I actually don't have anything against you. I just think we need to try someone else.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:49]:

Let's go back in time a little bit and talk about your transition to being an international student. You've spent most of your life in Kuwait, if not all of your life in Kuwait. And you're like, let's go to San Diego. It's sunny there. But tell us about that immersion into American culture and your adjustment period into life in USC.

Omar Mehdi [00:19:08]:

All right, so, as you said, lived my whole life here, born and raised. And sometimes it's like the fish in the water. They don't know they're wet, and you have to leave to know what dry is, because you have to leave the sea to know that what dry looks like. In Kuwait, I knew myself through titles. I am the captain of the football team. That is what I do. I play football. I am the youngest son to my parents.

Omar Mehdi [00:19:31]:

That is what I do. I am the youngest son to them. I am friends with so and so. That is what do. And because I was in that setting, I never got a chance to actually get to know who I am outside of these roles that you play. The moment I moved to the United States, and the moment you go there, you realize the world's much bigger than the little world you live in. And this can be true to any country, any city you live in. And because the United States is really far in distance and in similarities between the country I live in, everything is new.

Omar Mehdi [00:19:54]:

I never paid attention to the color of my skin till I went to the United States. I never realized I have a color of my skin till I walked into the US. That I realized I don't look like them. They do look at me and see a difference. My accent, the things I say, what's appropriate to say and what's not appropriate to say. You can say things in Kuwait that can make everybody laugh and make everybody feel comfortable, but you can say in the States, and everybody will think you're horrible and think you're crossing all kinds of red lines. So moving there in the beginning and this is the thing, I had visa issues to get to the States, so I missed the first semester. And then because of my assistantship, that goes with the actual being admitted to the university.

Omar Mehdi [00:20:29]:

So there was an office who was waiting for me to come that I actually never turned up to for a whole semester because they were waiting on me to get my visa. And by the time I got there, it was literally a few days before spring orientation. We were in charge of spring orientation as an office center for student success. So I literally had to hit the ground running. There was no room for you to train right now. Whatever task I give, you just have to do it. We will get to training you later. We will get to transitioning you later today.

Omar Mehdi [00:20:50]:

We have to do orientation. And it was the first time they do orientation too, as an office, maybe there was the first time for the center for Student Success to organize orientation, but for me, it was the first time doing everything. The learning curve for them was related to orientation. For me, it was everything. Whether it was orientation, these people, their names, what time does the sun set? Where do I get what this and that? I moved there not having an apartment or a place to stay. I stayed at a motel in the beginning, so I'd finish work and go back to a motel. Classes haven't started yet, so that's a new curve that's coming up. And I think I was lucky to have that.

Omar Mehdi [00:21:20]:

And I think because I hit the ground running, there wasn't time for me to dwell on the differences, dwell on the culture shock. Because you hit the ground running, you quickly have to adapt. And no time I was able to get myself sorted and move into a place and all that stuff. But the person that went to the United States of America and the person that left the United States of America are two different people. And I'm a much better person because of the experience I had. If I never went to the United States, I think I'd still be the same person I was. And I would say that is a worse off human being. I think as a person, I became much better outside of career wise.

Omar Mehdi [00:21:53]:

Career wise, I've developed mentally because of the experiences I had, because of the mentors that I had, because of the program that I was in. But genuinely, as a human being, I also improved a lot. I've changed a lot. The reflection process that is embedded into the program has allowed me to change some of the things that I never realized were a part of who I am. And going back to the point I was saying earlier where I knew myself through my roles, going to a country that A doesn't care about, maybe soccer, in the same way Kuwait does, and who I do as a person, and realizing you have a skill nobody cares about, and then nobody knows who you are. You don't know who anybody is, you don't know where things are. And trying to create something in that environment made me a much more confident, much more independent, and much more well rounded. I used to live with my parents.

Omar Mehdi [00:22:36]:

I still live with my parents because of the culture that we live in. You don't leave your house until you get married. So naturally, food is something I take for granted, laundry is something I take for granted. And this is something every college student feels the first time they go getting to learn how to do their laundry and something new. But it was new to me, and I was doing it as the older dog. I was doing it as. A person who has 21 years old, not 1718. So now I'm a little different, too, in that aspect.

Omar Mehdi [00:22:59]:

And then you move into the actual coursework and the actual program. And it was very strange to me that people were talking about their feelings in the classroom. It was extremely strange. It was strange to the point of it was off putting. Like, why are you being emotional? I don't want to learn this. I want to learn what says in textbook. I'm still looking at it as a traditional education style. And people were talking, everybody's talking about their feelings.

Omar Mehdi [00:23:22]:

And I'm sitting there thinking, this is ridiculous. You guys need to take yourself seriously. There's a professor here. And then some of them would be emotional to a point where they would cry. And to me, this is ridiculous. Guys, come on. Get a good grip. And I never understood the value of what they were bringing to the table till, I think, my second semester.

Omar Mehdi [00:23:40]:

And that's when everything clicked, kind of. I started drinking the Koolaid, tried to understand what it is that we do and why we do it. Understanding that emotion isn't a bad thing, feeling it isn't a bad thing. The knowledge and learning that you get from getting in touch with these emotions and unraveling the onion is something that is valuable. Understanding also that in Kuwait, being a student employee at a university, it's a great experience, but you're not really in charge of a lot of bigger things. And then you move to the States, and now you're a graduate assistantship. So it has a higher responsibility. The volume of work is more responsible, or the kind of work is more responsible.

Omar Mehdi [00:24:15]:

And then these supervisors aren't. I don't know them. They're new to me. And working to impress them was something very hard for me because I don't know who they are. I don't know what they expect when it comes to the delivery of work or the quality of work that you have to do. I was very impressed by them, and naturally, I wanted to impress them. So that was great, and I learned a lot from being able to work with them. And the best part of my program, what made transitioning to life in the United States and San Diego specifically, is the program was very sensitive to the fact that I am an international student.

Omar Mehdi [00:24:46]:

They were very careful with my transition in the sense that we had a cohort that would meet every two weeks as a class, and we would talk about our experiences. The people in the cohort were also very friendly to the fact that, hey, Amar is not from here. Like, how's doing? I think they were very welcoming. I was very lucky to have a very welcoming cohort that wanted what's best for me. They would talk to me about my transition and how I'm coping, which some people may not do that. You may not be so lucky to have a cohort that actually cares to check in, to actually care to give. You advice to actually to see how it's like to be the international student and see your input or what you bring to the table, your perspective as valuable. So in a nutshell, it's lucky to have that experience.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:24]:

What advice would you give student affairs professionals around the world to support international students coming to their campuses?

Omar Mehdi [00:25:30]:

I think they should listen. I think that international students is a title you use for non US students. However, we as a group have so many different things.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:40]:

Literally the entire world, it's everybody but American.

Omar Mehdi [00:25:43]:

And we are all very, very different in our backgrounds and so on. However, we do go through similar aspects of US. What makes us international students, the culture shock, the transition, trying to get self sorted and so on. However, listening is very important. The student groups that come to you may have very different needs, may experience things very differently. So maybe a student from a certain country may experience the exact same thing. A different student is from a different country experiencing it very differently. The international office that belonged to the USD at University of San Diego was also very cultured, which, I don't mean this in a bad way, but it isn't the same in the States.

Omar Mehdi [00:26:15]:

Like in my first week in the US. Someone came to me and said, Where are you from? And I said, Kuwait. And they said, oh, is that inside India? And to me it didn't offend me. I laughed because I was like, oh, Sweden, no, you need to open up a map of the world to me. I laughed. It didn't offend me, but it could offend people. That not knowing the difference between someone who is and it happens in the world because there are a lot of states that are neighboring and have very similar populations but hate each other and don't get along. So mistakening the difference between one and so listening and realizing that students have different needs and number two, being cultured and incoming student.

Omar Mehdi [00:26:49]:

Especially that as a person who is Muslim, who does believe in Islam, who does practice Islam and lives in a conservative country, when you go to the United States, which is a very liberal country, a lot of things can offend me. And trying to understand if this is something that may be normal to Americans, maybe hard for me to swallow or to cope with, can impact my experience and impact my retention. Reasons to come back is something very important because one of the things that used to happen in the class, especially in student affairs, they'll talk about LGBT concerns. And this is unheard of in where I come unheard of. And to be in a classroom where you're trying to understand their perspective is something that is foreign and alien to me because this is not something that is welcomed nor accommodated in where I come from. So this is one example, but you can have so many, and because again, I come from Kuwait, right? So a lot of people would ask me about Iraq as if I lived there, and then the war in Iraq was still going on, so people would ask me about the war and the troops. And San Diego is a very Marines heavy city, and a lot of our students in USD were there for the GI G Bill or what's it called, and they would come and want to talk to me about Iraq and talk about their experience. But that's not mine.

Omar Mehdi [00:27:56]:

I know it's close, but it's not mine. And I've never been to Iraq. So it's trying to understand the nuances of where they come from is very important because you're going to welcome them in as a university and you have a responsibility to make them feel comfortable in the same way that you have a responsibility to make res life, to be comfortable for the incoming freshman students and so on. So for me, the International Student Office needs to a listen, and b be more cultured in the nuances of the student groups coming in because they come with very, very different backgrounds.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:22]:

It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:28]:

Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world, and as always, there's a ton of things happening in NASPA, and I always love being able to share with you some of the great things that are happening. Another great blog on the NASPA website how community Colleges and University Partnerships improve enrollment and student experiences. This is by Sherry Rowland of Tallahassee Community College. Sherry provides some really great insights into her own experience, but also some practical applications and takeaways that you may be able to consider for implementing at your own campus. If you've never checked out the NASPA blog, you need to go over to the NASPA website, click on the latest, and go down to blog. Or you can just scroll over to the latest and go down to blog and you'll find this article right toward the top of the page. Finally, we are thrilled to announce that ACPA College Student Educators International and NASPA Student Affairs Administrators in Higher Education are once again partnering to devise and update the ACPA NASPA professional competencies for student affairs educators, along with the complementary rubrics with a planned release for the updates in Spring 2025.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:50]:

There's a large number of individuals from both ACPA and NASPA that are on the Task Force. As the Task Force begins its work, we at NASPA are excited to offer the first of many opportunities for members to provide feedback about your experiences with and use of the professional competencies in your work. This first opportunity will be focused on groups centering on individuals in various positions in January 2024, NASPA will offer additional focus groups based on the ten current professional competency areas. NASPA also will provide an opportunity to offer written feedback via a short survey. Should have received an email just recently where you can sign up for one of the initial focus groups. All you have to do is click on the link in your email to be able to sign up for a session. And Espa does anticipate that these sessions will fill, but there will be additional opportunities that will continue to offer other engagement opportunities for you to provide feedback over the next few months. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:57]:

So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Because the association is as strong as its members and for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit, where do you want to give back? Each week. We're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in. That knowledge, community. I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:18]:

Chris, we always appreciate the time and effort you put into the NASPA World segment and keeping us informed on what's going on in and around NASPA. Omar, we have now reached our lightning round segment, which means I have about 90 seconds for you to answer seven questions. You ready to go?

Omar Mehdi [00:32:33]:

Let's go.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:34]:

All right, question number one. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Omar Mehdi [00:32:39]:

Eyes of Tiger.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:40]:

Number two, when you were five years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Omar Mehdi [00:32:44]:

Engineer.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:44]:

Number three who's your most influential professional mentor?

Omar Mehdi [00:32:47]:

Fat Wahat.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:48]:

Number four. Your essential student affairs.

Omar Mehdi [00:32:51]:

Read the Chronicle.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:52]:

Number five, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic?

Omar Mehdi [00:32:56]:

The Office.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:56]:

Number six. The podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Omar Mehdi [00:33:01]:

The rest is football.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:02]:

And finally, number seven any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional?

Omar Mehdi [00:33:06]:

I'd like to give a shout out to the American University of Kuwait with all the employees and faculty that have made me the person I am today, whether as a student or as an employee. I learned from them and learned from them on a daily basis, and I'm very grateful for everyone who has been a part of it. Last but definitely least, I'd like to give a shout out to my family who make me who I am and have to tolerate who I am too. So shout out goes to them.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:29]:

Thank you so much for sharing your perspective from Kuwait. I think it's always amazing to have more international voices on the show. The vast majority of our listenership comes from the US. But we're getting quite a bump coming in from Qatar lately. A few downloads here and there from many, many other countries too, but just really appreciative of you coming in and sharing your perspective on all of the transitions you've had over the years. Omar, if folks would like to reach you after the show, how can they find you?

Omar Mehdi [00:33:56]:

They can find me on Instagram as Ometti number one and number 414, so Ometi 14 and email. I'm sure you can share that in the announcement.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:06]:

All right, Omar, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today.

Omar Mehdi [00:34:10]:

Thank you, Jill. I really appreciate it and enjoyed the conversation. Hopefully I get to meet you one day in one of the conferences.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:18]:

This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at savoices@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn. By searching for Dr. Jill L. Craighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:43]:

We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show. And please, like, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced hosted by Dr. Jill L. Creighton SAP Mi. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:05]:

Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to University of Michigan, Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, Dr. Jill Creighton welcomes Andrew Hua, a Chinese Vietnamese higher education scholar and practitioner currently serving as the Director of Student Affairs Case Management Services at the University of California, San Diego. Andrew's journey into student affairs began as an undergraduate student involved in leadership activities, leading him to pursue graduate programs in student affairs. He initially worked in residential life roles and later transitioned into case management. The conversation delves into how case management adapted to remote and hybrid models during the COVID-19 pandemic, focusing on building strong relationships with students even in virtual settings.

Andrew shares his unexpected transition to the interim director role at UC San Diego and the challenges he faced during this significant shift in responsibility. Mentorship, support, and collaboration are highlighted as crucial aspects of professional transitions in student affairs. Andrew also discusses his decision to pursue a Doctorate in Education (EdD) while managing his leadership role and the challenges and rewards of such a commitment.

Throughout the episode, Andrew's journey exemplifies the importance of mentorship and support during career transitions in student affairs, as well as the significance of building rapport with students and colleagues, even in remote or hybrid work environments. He emphasizes the value of seeking and accepting support from mentors and peers when navigating transitions.

Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]:

Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season nine on transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your essay Voices from the Field. Host welcome back to another episode of Essay Voices from the Field. Today we are heading to sunny Southern California to meet Andrew Hua.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:30]:

Andrew is a Chinese Vietnamese higher education scholar and practitioner. Currently, Andrew Hua serves as the Director of Student Affairs case Management Services at the University of California, San Diego. Before starting at UC San Diego, andrew served as a higher education professional at the University of California, Berkeley and Washington State University. He received his Master of Arts in Student Affairs administration degree from Michigan State. Go Green. Go Spartans. And he received his bachelor of arts in sociology degree from the University of California, Riverside Go. Highlanders.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:59]:

In addition, Andrew is the 2023 2025 Asian Pacific islander knowledge community cochair Andrew's various experiences in cris management, behavioral threat assessment, nonclinical case management, residential life, Greek life, student conduct conference services, and student government, along with his desire and passion to learn for developing students holistically as leaders, citizens and scholars in a safe and welcoming community is the foundation of his student affairs experience. Personally, he'd like to share that he's a huge Disney fanatic and loves photography. So you could say that his hobbies are going to Disneyland and taking pictures. However, he has other Hobies as well. He enjoys playing volleyball board and video games and going on foodie adventures and hiking. Andrew, so thrilled to have you on SA voices thank you.

Andrew Hua [00:01:40]:

I'm excited to be here with you as well.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:42]:

We learned from your bio you are not only the current co chair of the Apikc for NASPA, but you are also transitioning in other areas of life with a recent permanent position and also doctoral studies. So a lot going on for you in the transition space. But as we like to start each episode before we get into the journey, would love to know your come up story. How did you get to your current seat in higher ed?

Andrew Hua [00:02:05]:

Yeah, it's not a traditional pathway. I would have to say. I'll share that it started off traditional. As a young undergraduate student, I got involved in leadership, had the opportunity, had great mentors, advisors, and he said, have you ever thought about doing something like we do and doing student affairs? I was like, I have no idea what that is. And from there, it started with exploring graduate programs and then applying and getting in. So I went to Michigan State University, which was awesome. Go Spartans. And then from there, all my background has been residential life, so res life at Michigan State residence, life at Washington State residence, life at UC Berkeley, and then my transition from Berkeley to where I'm at now the University of California, San Diego, is case management.

Andrew Hua [00:02:54]:

It was a unique space. I wanted to get back to Southern California, and I started exploring different opportunities and found myself as a case manager. I saw transferable skills and over. In three years, there's been a lot of transitions from case manager to now serving as the director of the Student Affairs Case Management office.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:13]:

That's an incredible jump in three years to go from the individual contributor role to leading the entire team in such a short span when it was kind of a new functional area for you, but also kind of not, because what ResLife staff member is not doing case management and maybe just not calling it.

Andrew Hua [00:03:27]:

That 100% agree with you. I think Res Life has given me so many opportunities in understanding different areas and field of work. It felt really good to transition to that. But you're right. I would say it was one I think most folks face this. I transitioned in 2020 from Res Life to case management. A whole new field of work, kind of. And then from 2020 to 2023, I was working remotely hybrid, somewhat in person.

Andrew Hua [00:03:56]:

So lots of transitions and even transitioning to being interim director. Then director has its own transition too.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:03]:

Let's talk about doing case management in the hybrid and remote space, because I think case management especially is one of the areas of student affairs where there may be some hesitations from leadership to be okay with that because of the sensitive nature of what these types of cases can be. We're seeing students who are having mental health emergencies. We're seeing students who have personal crises. And there can be something impersonal about doing that level of connection with another person through the Internet. So tell us about how you navigated that.

Andrew Hua [00:04:32]:

Yeah, it was very interesting. I think we've all adapted in 2020. Students had to adapt, professionals had to adapt, and the only way to connect was virtually. So I think we had to find a way to find that connection. And one of the connections I was able to build is how do we build rapport with students? Get to know them as if we were getting to know them as if they were sitting right across from us, getting to know who they are as a person, getting to know what their interests were, understanding what their challenges are and what are their primary and I guess primary priorities when they come meet with us. Right. It's not about let's talk about anything and everything. It's about what do you need at this moment? And I think that's where I felt the students felt like they were being heard.

Andrew Hua [00:05:13]:

We've continued to do hybrid now because that's what the students want. We've done assessment. They've said majority of time we would like to have zoom. Do we do offer in person. But the students choose that because it's convenient. It allows them to be in the space that they're most comfortable, not in an office that they're not familiar with. And they also get to choose the time much more conveniently to them. They have to walk across campus, take in travel time.

Andrew Hua [00:05:37]:

So I think all things that I think about leadership, my leadership and my supervisors, when we have conversation about how do we conduct our work, if the students feel safe in their space, there's less risks of them spiraling or their mental health being flared up, and we're able to kind of navigate that with them. Of course, we do run into some of the situations where students do end up having a cris over the phone or over zoom, but we have our resources intact, right? That's where we'll de escalate. We'll do our best to contact resources off the side, whether it's contact another team member via teams, zoom, et cetera, to help us get the resources to the student if we know where the student is at that moment.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:19]:

So it's allowed you to work faster? In some ways, yeah.

Andrew Hua [00:06:22]:

More efficient and effective ways at times.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:24]:

You mentioned that you took on an interim position before becoming the director. How did that know?

Andrew Hua [00:06:30]:

That was a unique situation. I was not expecting. I did my role as the inaugural case manager and outreach specialist at UC San Diego. And my role. I was learning, and I felt really comfortable after a year. And I was ready to meet for my annual performance evaluation with my supervisor and say, like, I'm ready for more. Ready to look at what does it mean to be a case manager that takes on the designee responsibilities of my director when they're out of the office. And then I went into that meeting, and my director shared, you know what? I have some news to share with you.

Andrew Hua [00:07:02]:

I have actually accepted another position. I'm like, I didn't even get a chance to share about my goals for the next year, et cetera, because the next thing that came up was, Andrew, we've talked to leadership, and we think you'd be great to serve as the interim director. And I was shocked. I was like, it was one year in. Granted, I received positive feedback for my performance throughout, but I was not expecting that. So I had a moment of pause before I actually accepted.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:27]:

Think the more realistic way is you were freaking shook.

Andrew Hua [00:07:32]:

You are absolutely correct. I was I was not expecting I was like, I've done one year in this field, they're asking me to be interim director. I was like, okay, let's chat about that. What does that look like? So I was shook.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:43]:

That is a really different conversation than.

Andrew Hua [00:07:45]:

The one you expected to have 100%. So granted, it was a great opportunity. And I did get to sit down and talk about, like, I really enjoyed working with my supervisor. And I said, I will accept it under one condition, is that you continue to serve as a mentor. And that the leadership that is still here that I will report to, also will serve as mentors too. Not just supervisors, but mentors to mold me into a great leader. Why take on the interim role?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:15]:

That is a really amazing ask. We talk a lot in negotiation skills about things you can ask for that is not necessarily based salary, like vacation days and other types of things. But asking for someone to serve as a mentor is a really great pro tip, especially if you're taking on something that maybe you have your own reservations about.

Andrew Hua [00:08:33]:

Yeah, 100%. And I can tell you, they all agreed. They're like, absolutely. We will continue to serve as mentors and consult as you navigate this water until this day. I still have mentoring moments with them. Like every month, we have something scheduled with my previous supervisor and the leadership here at UC San Diego. So it's not gone. It still continues, even though I have taken on the permanent role.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:56]:

When you take on an interim role, and especially in the way that it was offered to you, it doesn't really give the team a lot of transparency. That can feel a little bit scary to the team when all of these changes are happening suddenly. How did you navigate the waters of moving from a fellow case manager to supervising others? Who were your direct peers and maybe had no idea this was coming?

Andrew Hua [00:09:15]:

Yeah, that was a tricky area to kind of navigate. But in much reflection, I did inquire why me? Why my position? Why am I being selected? I think that was important for me to understand. And what was shared with me was my inaugural role. The student affairs case manager and outreach specialist. That was the starting point. The future and strategic plan was eventually this role would become the Assistant Director or would eventually become the designee overall for any Director responsibilities. When the Director was out and the entire team knew that when they did their search for the position, the entire team knew that the Student Affairs Case Manager and Outreach Specialist role was going to evolve into something of leadership. So I think that's when it made me feel a bit more comfortable with knowing that the team knew this.

Andrew Hua [00:10:05]:

They all had opportunities to also apply for the position and show interest. I think the other piece for me is I took it in my own responsibility to connect with my colleagues. I checked in with them and shared hey, of course, when the announcement was made, I connected with them afterwards and said, I wanted to check in with you. How are you feeling about the decision? What are some challenges that may be coming up, or how can I best support you in this interim phase? My colleagues actually embraced me. They're very happy. They're like, we are so happy that we have an interim director. We've seen what this department has been like when there is an interim director, and some of them shared with me that they're glad that they didn't want it. We had no plans.

Andrew Hua [00:10:48]:

They did not want to be the room director. So glad you accepted. We will happily work with you. And I think the year that I got to spend with them was awesome. We collaborated on so many projects, so they knew who I was, they knew how I worked, and in no way, shape, or form was their conflict. It was all collaborative and learning, and most of them had skills that I learned from that helped me kind of build on the interim position.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:11]:

The interim year is starting to come to a close. It's time to think about whether or not that permanent position is something you want to do or don't want to do, because you had the opportunity to learn over the course of that year. Tell us about how you made the decision that, yes, you do want to go for the permanent position.

Andrew Hua [00:11:27]:

Yeah, that was a lot of thinking. I knew when I accept interim role, it was also a place of, like, I feel like I'm interviewing for this position too.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:39]:

For a whole year.

Andrew Hua [00:11:40]:

For a whole year. And I also was in a place of, I'm going to look at this opportunity as interim to decide whether I would actually enjoy this work. I was going to look at this interim opportunity to also understand if this will propel me for future professional opportunities. And I think both were yes. Right at the end of the day, I enjoyed the work. I enjoyed that this pathway was probably going to lead to new opportunities for my next career step. I enjoyed working with the staff that helped support students. I do miss working with students quite often, but this gives me a different level of work, and there's a different type of feeling when I'm able to support my staff and they are coming back.

Andrew Hua [00:12:22]:

During our Kudo sessions. We appreciate your leadership. We appreciate the opportunity to work with you and your consultation. These are folks that have done case management much longer than I have. Some of my colleagues come from a social work background, and when I am able to provide my expertise and we are working together to provide an interdisciplinary or multidisciplinary approach, it feels good. So I think overall, those are a couple of things that came to mind.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:47]:

You decide to go for the role, you do have to do a full, real search to get the position. What was that like to go from being a person who was leading the team to a person who is now interviewing for your own job again with that team and with your supervisors?

Andrew Hua [00:13:03]:

That was a fascinating experience. In my interim role, we had vacancies, and I had to hire a couple of folks as well. So I hired those folks, and then in turn, they have to decide whether I get to continue or they interview me. And my feelings were kind of mixed. Right. Is that there's a fear because as an internal candidate, they get to see everything. As much as we'd like to ensure that it's unbiased process in any hiring, recruitment, there's some bias that I believe does permeate into the space of like it comes into feedback and how we see others. But overall I'm laying out there and they can see everything, whether I present it in the interview or if they've seen it in the past in the work that I've done.

Andrew Hua [00:13:43]:

I think the other piece was also excitement. It was an opportunity for me to share the great work that we've done and share where we can go. Because I have had some time internally to think about strategically, if I were to take on the interim director position, lead this department at full capacity, where could it really be? So those were kind of the two mixed feelings. I was going in and then of course, it's kind of awkward going in and you see all the familiar faces and you have to like, let me tell you how I do my job, or how I think the job can.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:11]:

Be done, or here's how I think I do the job. And then maybe what they're receiving from you is not aligned with their experience with you. It's a weird place to navigate.

Andrew Hua [00:14:20]:

Yeah, absolutely. Every has their perceptions and thoughts. So yeah, it's a unique experience to be in.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:27]:

You get the position, you're sitting in that seat now. What was the transition like for you from moving from the interim space to moving to the full time space?

Andrew Hua [00:14:35]:

I'll be very honest, it wasn't too big of a transition. I felt like I was already doing the role at full capacity. If anything, I felt comfortable making long term decisions. So there were things that we tested out in the interim. I was like, we're just doing this interim, we're going to pilot it during the interim. But now coming out of interim and being the full time official director, I was like, it worked, let's make it official.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:00]:

Stick it.

Andrew Hua [00:15:01]:

Yeah, let's stick with it, put it into place, iron it out, cement it in. And those practices are in and they run so efficiently and effectively. So I think most of the part it's just like, okay, now I can put yes permanent stamp on it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:15]:

All the while you're doing this interim position, this job search internally, you're also pursuing the Edd, which is taking up a ton of time and energy. How's that going? And how the heck are you balancing that with taking on this brand new and very big job?

Andrew Hua [00:15:32]:

I don't know what I was thinking.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:35]:

I think someone may have cautioned you in that regard.

Andrew Hua [00:15:39]:

I've had great mentors who cautioned, but also said that they would support me in whatever decision I go with. And I will say there were a lot of things that were coming to mind. I had applied during my interim phase and I got in during my interim phase and I said yes to the Edd. So it was kind of like a weird situation where I said yes to Edd, even though I knew I didn't have the official position, because I was like, this is always something I wanted to do. I always wanted to get my doctorate. I wanted to also get back into classroom and learn. I also wanted to be innovative. And then some of that is for me as an individual, I needed some structured learning and structured growth opportunities, and the Ed program provided that.

Andrew Hua [00:16:23]:

And I think it came down to be like the reverse round. Like, I am in the Edd. Do I take on this director role permanently? Because I could have gone back and been the assistant director. Because during my interim role, I also made some changes to my old position as strategically set in stone in the past. So, yeah, I was like, I said yes to the Edd. I feel good about the director role. I'm going to say yes to this, and I will say I have not regretted it. It has been tough, it has been exhausting, but I have not regretted the decision because I honestly think it has only made me a better leader and a better director and a better student affairs professional.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:03]:

What are your strategies for finding time to be a person or to take care of yourself while you're doing these things? For those of you who can't see Andrew put out his.

Andrew Hua [00:17:14]:

You know, that's a good question and a hard question. I think I started off pretty strong in my first year of my doctorate and also the official director role by sticking to a routine. And I had support from my supervisors and leadership. Right. It's at 05:00 p.m.. There's no contact for me. We are non clinical case management and work related stops at five. And I've seen this where my leadership has told other leaders on campus, like, you will not hear from Andrew until he comes in at 08:00.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:44]:

A.m., that is amazing support.

Andrew Hua [00:17:46]:

Yeah. When I saw that email, I was like, I feel I can fully put my work from eight to five and really be myself after that time. Right. And I think the balance after 05:00 is where does education and fun time go? And that's been a bit of a challenge. But my first year again, right, I had a structured set up. I had a number of hours. I would do some studying, and then after that, I can watch TV, I can play games, I can do whatever. Of course, schedules change up where friends come in town and we make modifications.

Andrew Hua [00:18:16]:

But I think that's the biggest thing is that my leadership supported me in my academic journey and I was dedicated to finding balance in my life. Now year two, and now almost going to year three, there's been a couple of changes, transitions, but all still the same goal of trying to be like, no, at five, I'm done 08:00. I'll come back the next day and then stick to my studies at the evening as much as I can.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:40]:

And we're looking at Dr. Hua 2024, right?

Andrew Hua [00:18:42]:

Oh, you know, possibly if I really hunker down, it could be 2024. If not, it will be early 2025. So fingers crossed.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:53]:

We'll say hashtag Dr. Hua class of 2025 or sooner.

Andrew Hua [00:18:58]:

Yes, I will take it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:59]:

You're also taking on the role of running for and being elected the co chair of the NASPA Apikc while you're doing this interim and now director role and while you're doing this Edd program. So you just kind of were like, bring it on. I want all the things tell us about that journey.

Andrew Hua [00:19:17]:

I feel like you got my resume somewhere. Yeah. I'll be very honest. All these decisions were also encouragement from mentors people I respect, and also during my interim phase, which is very unique for those who know how KC election works. There's, in between KC chair appointments, they do an election. So you have elect year if you are selected. And during that time, I was interim and, you know, exploring opportunities. I had people saying, you would be awesome.

Andrew Hua [00:19:48]:

You should nominate yourself to go be a co chair. We have another colleague that would be awesome to team up with. So having spoken to my co chair, who is Michelle Chan now, and we found some common ground and some excitement behind potentially being co chairs, and we went for it. I was like, in a day, someone else probably will nominate themselves, we will go through the ballot and I might not get it, and that's fine. Why not put my name in the hat, see what happens? Little did I know, name got pulled. Yep. I am now the co chair. And I was like, oh, boy.

Andrew Hua [00:20:24]:

So I took the year of being a chair elect for KC as seriously as possible and learned as much as I can. It is a lot of work. Kudos to many of my previous Apikc, NASPA Case, NASPA Apikc co chairs. Y'all do a lot that is not seen. So kudos to those folks and how do I manage it all? I try to find a balance with my co chair, and I go back to previous co chairs and be like, give me your tips. What have you done? What can I do better? So it's a lot.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:52]:

I think what we're hearing from you is that the leadership in the KC space is truly a service to the profession. I know that when we think about leadership development theory and different ways of leadership, oftentimes we think of the figurehead as having decision making authority and number of other things. But while that is true, especially in the KC space. The corralling and consensus building is really one of the most important things that the KC chair can do. I always view you all as the stewards of the KC for the time that you're elected. I talked to Shakura Martin about their journey to the NASA Board chair recently. They said it's a stewardship of the organization, it's not Shakura's agenda. And the same thing is true for the KC roles.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:32]:

It's Andrew's Stewardship of the KC. Not Andrew's Agenda for the KC.

Andrew Hua [00:21:36]:

It truly is not my agenda. The leadership team are great folks who are motivated, excited, who want to give back, who want to engage. So it's really supporting some of their ideas. And of course, our constituency, when the constituency speaks and shares their ideas, we'll both look at ways on how we can incorporate, how we can make it come to life. So truly, I think the other way I navigate is taking on this co chairship is my amazing leadership team does amazing job. They are awesome. So their excitement, their drive also excites me and pushes me to continue to push forward with all the responsibilities of being a co chair 100%. It is not my agenda.

Andrew Hua [00:22:16]:

It is all about what our community needs.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:18]:

You have been a tremendous guest for the theme of transitions. Given all of the transitions going on in your world, what advice do you have for listeners who are going through their own transitions in their professional life, in their service life, or in their life life?

Andrew Hua [00:22:33]:

I think for me, the biggest thing I learned is not to do it alone. Every transition comes with its challenges. And for those who are great higher ed and student affairs folks, challenge and support, right? Balance it out. Find the support to help navigate those challenges. I have mentors that are outside of this country that I connect with that help support me as well. So I would say don't do it alone. And you have people around you that are rooting for you to go through that transition and they'll be right there beside you.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:01]:

It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Christopher Lewis [00:23:07]:

Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world and as always, there's a ton of things happening in NASPA and I always love being able to share with you some of the great things that are happening. 2024 NASPA Institute for New AVPs is coming up January 25 to 27th in Atlanta, Georgia. The NASPA Institute for New AVPs is a foundational three day learning and networking experience designed to support and develop AVPs in their unique and challenging roles on campus. The Institute is appropriate for AVPs and other senior level number twos who report to the highest ranking student affairs officer and who have been serving in their first AVP or number two position for not longer than two years. It sounds like something that you would love to be a part of. To learn more about, go to the NASPA website under Events and click on 2024 NASPA Institute for New AVPs. So, in January 2024, january 27 through the 29th in Atlanta, Georgia, is the 2024 NASPA AVP Symposium.

Christopher Lewis [00:24:18]:

The NASPA AVP Symposium is a unique and innovative three day program designed to support and develop AVPs and other number twos in their unique campus leadership roles. Leveraging the vast expertise and knowledge of sitting AVPs, the Symposium will provide high level content through a variety of participant engagement oriented session types. This professional development offering is limited to AVPs and other number twos who report to the highest ranking student affairs officer on campus and have substantial responsibility for divisional functions. Additionally, Vice Presidents for Student Affairs and the equivalent who are presenting during the Symposium may also register at a discounted rate and attend April 20 eigth through the 30th of 2024 in Doha, Qatar, is the 18th Annual Manassa NASPA Conference. The Manassa NASPA Conference provides student affairs practitioners with the knowledge and skills to effectively address and support college students. Higher education is witnessing a wide array of challenges, especially in the area in the era of fast technological evolution. Thus, this three day conference by NASPA and the Middle East, North Africa and South Asia Manassa area is an opportunity to connect with colleagues regionally and abroad to talk about these emerging technologies. The conference is going to provide space for discussing innovative ideas, adaptive approaches, use of technology, best practices, lessons learned, and provide tools to understand the next generation of student affairs.

Christopher Lewis [00:25:57]:

If you want to know more about this great conference and travel to the Middle East to meet so many of your colleagues, go to the NASPA website and check it out for yourself. Every week we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Because the association is as strong as its members and for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit? Where do you want to give back? Each week. We're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in. That knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now.

Christopher Lewis [00:27:10]:

To offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association, because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:31]:

Wonderful as always to hear from you, Chris, on what's going on in and around NASPA. Andrew, we have reached our Lightning round segment. I have seven questions for you in 90 seconds.

Andrew Hua [00:27:42]:

Oh, boy. I'm ready. Here we go.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:44]:

Question number one if you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Andrew Hua [00:27:49]:

I would choose finesse by Bruno Mars. I don't just I feel like I would walk up with some finesse.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:55]:

Number two, when you were five years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Andrew Hua [00:27:59]:

Oh, when I grew up, I'll be very honest. I wanted to be a dinosaur. I wanted to walk around like a trex.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:07]:

You can still do that?

Andrew Hua [00:28:08]:

I still do sometimes.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:10]:

Number three, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Andrew Hua [00:28:13]:

That's a difficult one. I have a lot of mentors that have inspired me to do many different things, so I unfortunately, cannot just provide you a name.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:22]:

Number four. Your Essential Student Affairs.

Christopher Lewis [00:28:24]:

Read.

Andrew Hua [00:28:24]:

I'm reading too much right now, so there's too much in my doctoral program to read, so I can't pick one. Sorry.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:30]:

Number five, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic.

Andrew Hua [00:28:34]:

I would have to say I've jumped back into Criminal Minds, and Criminal Minds is just something I really enjoy.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:40]:

Number six, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Andrew Hua [00:28:44]:

In the last year, honestly, the quickest thing for news for me is up first. I like to try to get little bits and get on it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:51]:

And finally, number seven, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional?

Andrew Hua [00:28:55]:

Personally, I would probably just shout out my parents. I wrote it in my application. I write it in my dissertation everywhere and my work, that they are truly who inspired me to be a disruptor in education and how to disrupt some of the systematic challenges and systems of oppression. So they're my personal shout out and professional shout out. I would have to say there are a number of folks from Glinda Guzman, Sonny Lee to Alison Satterland, all folks who have inspired me. And if I'm able to shout out you, Jill, you have influenced me in many ways and also inspired me to do many things. So those are a couple folks.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:34]:

It's been a wonderfully, rich conversation to talk to you about your transitions today. If others would like to reach you after the show, how can they find you?

Andrew Hua [00:29:42]:

If folks want to reach me, there are two ways I recommend finding me on LinkedIn. You can try to find me with my LinkedIn name, which is H-U-A-N-D-R-E-W just my last name, hua. And then Andrew. Or you can contact me via email, which is ah u a@ucsd.edu Andrew.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:00]:

Thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today.

Andrew Hua [00:30:03]:

Thank you. This was great. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:06]:

This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field, brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at savoices@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn. By searching for Dr. Jill L. Craighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:31]:

We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show. And please, like, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill L. Craighton. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:54]:

Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to University of Michigan, Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, Dr. Jill Creighton, welcomes W. Houston Dougharty, a seasoned student affairs professional with a four-decade career in various leadership roles at multiple colleges and universities. They explore Dr. Dougharty's journey in the field, the changes he has witnessed over the years, and the lessons he has learned.

W. Houston Dougharty discusses his early passion for college life and how he started his career in admissions. He reflects on the significant changes brought about by technology and the complexity of students' lives in the current era compared to the simpler college life of the past. The two also discuss the importance of adapting to these changes while maintaining the fundamental relationship-based nature of the student affairs profession.

As W. Houston Dougharty transitioned from associate dean to senior student affairs officer to vice president, he shared how he continued to stay connected with students and emphasized the value of maintaining informal, friendly relationships with them. He also reflects on the challenges and support mechanisms as students navigate their growth and development.

W. Houston Dougharty's publications on theory to practice, ethical decision-making, and executive transitions are discussed. He explains how these opportunities came about through his connections with colleagues in NASPA and how they helped him bridge theory and practice within the field of student affairs.

The episode concludes with W. Houston Dougharty sharing his experiences in retirement, emphasizing the importance of service and community involvement. He mentions his volunteering activities and how he is finding ways to engage with the community and stay connected to education and student affairs through consulting and coaching opportunities.

Overall, the episode highlights the evolution of the student affairs field over the years, the enduring importance of relationships, and the importance of embracing change while upholding core values in the profession.

Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]:

Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 9 on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, And I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Welcome back to another episode of essay voices from the field. Today's conversation features the distinguished W Houston Doherty. Houston is a 4 decade college student affairs leader who served as senior student affairs officer at Grinnell College, Hofstra University, Lewis and Clark College, and the University of Puget Sound. Before these leadership roles, he served as associate dean of students at Iowa State, preceded by a decade as a highly successful leader in enrollment management. He earned his degrees from Puget Sound, Western Washington, and the University of California Santa Barbara.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:53]:

He received the distinguished service to the profession award from the Iowa Student Personnel Association in 2011 and the outstanding senior student affairs officer award from NASPA SPUG region 4 East in 2013. In 2018, he was named a pillar of the profession by NASPA, and in 2021, he was awarded the Scott Goodnight award for outstanding performance as a dean by NASPA region 2. He was ultimately honored in 22 when NASPA awarded him the National Scott Goodnight Award. In 2023, he was also awarded the University of Puget Sound's distinguished alumni award for professional achievement. He served NASPA as James e Scott Academy board member, as faculty director for the 2022 NASA Institute for new vice president for student affairs and as the faculty director of the NASPA Institute for aspiring vice presidents for student affairs in 2011. Houston also served on the regional boards for NASPA regions 2 for east and five. He's been cited in numerous publications, for example, the New York Times, the Chronicle of Higher patience, Seattle Times, USA Today, etcetera, and is published in a number of books including Linking Theory to Practice, Case Studies with College Students, which has 2 editions from 2012, the Advocate College Guide from 06, Maybe I Should, Case Studies on Ethics for Student Affairs Professionals in 09, and Executive Transitions in Student Affairs in 2014. In retirement, Houston is active and student affairs consulting and coaching and serving on the board of the KUNM Public Radio and in volunteering for the Food Depot Big Brothers and Big Sisters as a loyal alum of Santa Fe Prep and Puget Sound.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:14]:

Houston, I'm so glad to have you on SA Voices today.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:02:16]:

Thank you. It's terrific to talk to you and To meet you.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:19]:

So this is the 1st time we're talking. And in true student affairs tradition, I suppose, in our preshow talk, we discovered we have many, many mutual students and have in fact lived in some of the same cities, just not at the same time.

Dr. W. Houston Dougharty [00:02:32]:

It's that classic 2 degrees of separation in student affairs. It takes A 32nd conversation to figure out the 18 people you both know.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:41]:

Absolutely. And now we get to know each other. But, Houston, you have recently retired from the profession with an extraordinarily accomplished resume as you've contributed to the field and made your mark in different ways. So we're gonna move through kind of your journey, but I'm wondering if you can give us the highlights of kinda your stops along the way. And ultimately, you became a pillar of the profession, Scott Goodnight award winner, a number of those very prestigious honors in NASPA. Sir. But what led you to that journey?

W. Houston Dougharty [00:03:08]:

Well, I was just telling somebody yesterday, a graduate student who was asking me about my career. I just I had to start by saying, I'm really one of the luckiest guys on the planet because I've had the chance to spend 4 decades helping folks realize their dreams And get in touch with their talents and help create the world they wanna live in. And it really started during My undergraduate career as a student at Puget Sound back in the seventies and early eighties when I fell in love with college. And it didn't take me long to figure out that if I could Figure out a way to live my life on a college campus, I would be a very, very happy person. So I started my life in admissions At my undergraduate institution at Puget Sound, like a lot of us do. And then I had a a small family, and my wife said, you're gonna travel how much? And then I went back to graduate school at Western Washington and then at UC Santa Barbara and realized that what I really loved doing was being a part of students' lives every single day. So I've had the chance to do that on 8 different college campuses in six States over 40 years. And I've been at little tiny liberal arts colleges like Grinnell and Lewis and Clark and Puget Sound, and I've been at big places like UCSB and Iowa State.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:04:23]:

And then I I finished my career at a place that kind of blends the 2, Hofstra, right outside of New York City, Which is over 10,000, a bunch of graduate and professional schools, but also only 3 or 4000 residential students. So, again, I just think I'm very, very fortunate to have had been a part of Students' lives and colleagues' lives for that period of time at all those different places.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:43]:

One of the reasons we were so excited to have you on this season about the themes of transitions is you've been able to mark the story of student affairs from the late seventies, early eighties until literally the present. So you started in student affairs before we had really evolved in a technological school space before social media, before email, before, you know, all of these different ways that student development and student affairs work has really been deeply impacted and in a lot of ways, you know, growing in the improvement space from that technology. We actually just had a conversation with Eric Stoler about The transformation of technology in higher ed is a is a huge component of our work. But I'm hoping you can tell us about where the field was anchored when you started and how you've seen it grow in that transition space of society growing.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:05:27]:

One of the things that I'm pleased about, in spite of all the change in the last 40 plus years, is that I still think it is fundamentally a relationship based profession where we're able to most Positively impact students' lives by taking the time to get to know them, and to be supportive of them. And at the same time, I wrote a piece For Scott Academy blog, as I rolled off this summer from Scott Academy board, I talked about One of the main changes, and that is in the complexity of our world and the complexity of our students' lives. And it sort of hearkened back to how simple in many ways college life was in the seventies eighties when there were no cell phones, where, you weren't inundated with with news 24 hours a day where life just seemed slower And simpler and perhaps more relationship oriented in a natural way. And one of the things that our profession has had to do Considerably is adjust to that complexity, to make sure that we're relevant in students' lives And relevant in a world that has changed some.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:42]:

Houston, one of the things you mentioned about the transition was kind of this simplicity of college life when you started in the profession. And I'm wondering if you can just define that a little more about what that kind of simplicity space looked like and felt like for you as a professional and for the students that were attending college.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:06:59]:

Sure. Well and a lot of it is tied to technology in that For the 1st 10 years of my professional life, I didn't have a computer on my desk. There was no such thing as email. In fact, when I went to graduate school in the early nineties, I very distinctly remember the very first assignment we had was to send an email. And that's Very funny to think of is and and we were nervous, and we didn't have Gmail. We used a server called Eudora is how we send our email. Students did not have the constant tether of outside information, like 24 hour news or Podcasts or the ability to text with their friends all over the world, they also lived in some ways not only a simpler life, but a more independent life Because their parents and their family members or their guardians were in sporadic conversation with them As opposed to now where students are con you know, walking out of class and texting their mom about the class thing. You know, I remember When I was in college, you know, my parents lived 1500 miles away, and we talked every other Saturday for 10 minutes by pay phone.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:08:14]:

That's a whole different world than than the kind of constant, communication and Styles of parenting have changed dramatically. So I would say technology and family dynamics are 2 of the things that I've noticed the most. And

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:28]:

Well, I'm sure that that phone call was quite expensive, and if parents are not home to receive that phone call, that's it.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:08:35]:

That's right. And I was the first person in my family to have gone very far away to college. My parents did not, have much money. I bought a little, you know, a little card that I could use on a payphone, and we would need it. You know, we'd call it 1 o'clock on Saturday every other week. And it was a very valuable conversation, station. But it was a 10 minute conversation. And I can't help but think in many ways I grew and my independence because we had so little conversation.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:09:04]:

And yet at the same time, I'm sure there's there's part of our lives that we would have loved to have shared, Which so many students can do so much more easily now.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:13]:

One of the conversations I have at new student orientation every year now is with parents and giving them my personal challenge to give a little bit of that untethering, some of that freedom. And my my 1st 6 weeks challenge is always, Don't text your student until they text you first.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:09:30]:

Love that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:31]:

And that really feels impossible for a lot of parents. And then this year, I had 1 parent who actually responded in one of our parent groups and, said, I'm taking team Creighton's advice because my student told me I'm annoying them.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:09:46]:

It's very true. And I think because students and parents have been so accustomed To be in such close contact, it's tempting for parents to then wanna solve rather than allow students to be in discomfort. And as we in our field know, growth is what comes from discomfort. And so I think your advice is really good advice so that students can have some comfort and try to learn to navigate things without their parents constantly or their guardians constantly coaching them. And And

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:17]:

that's what we're trying to do a lot is have, you know, discern the difference between discomfort and growth and crisis, right? We don't want students floundering. That's the challenge and support theory that we've been operating off of for years. I mean, we're just figuring out differently.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:10:31]:

Well, and again, that just as the relationship basis Our field hasn't changed in 40 years. The challenge and support has not changed. I think, though, it's nuanced as we've had to adjust To family dynamics being different and technology being different. That the challenge and support is still critical, but it's mix and it's nuance Has had to shift with the changes in our world.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:56]:

Certainly. And I've been reading and listening to a lot of information on AI right now because, you know, there's bold statements out in the world like AI is gonna take over human jobs. And then I think about what we do or what our counterparts in counseling do or counterparts in therapy do. And while AI can certainly be harnessed to make our jobs easier, there's no replacement for a person to sit across from you and provide you with emotional support or comfort or guidance.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:11:21]:

Yeah. And I I think coming out of COVID, we were that was even reinforced with us, wasn't it, Jill? That As much as we found that we could do long distance or or through a screen or through other modes of communication, so many of us were so anxious to get back to an environment where we could actually have coffee with students, where we could actually be in the lounges of the residence halls, where they could come to our office hours Because of that, the sort of genuine nature of that caring relationship that is engendered by being in person.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:53]:

Absolutely. And For me, those who have worked with me at previous institution or have read any of my recent LinkedIn stuff, I I'm very much a proponent of the remote and hybrid work space for higher ed. So I think that there's an interesting balance for how we take care of ourselves and also show up in our best way for students. And I really think that's hybrid going forward because we can do both. Right? We can give people the flexibility, that they need to live a whole life and then also be there for students when our students need us.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:12:20]:

Well, and it has to be both and. Right? And we learn so much about what we can do differently that it's important that we not simply revert back to what we were comfortable with, especially those of us who are older and have been doing this a long time, but that we say, so how do we take the best of what technology offers us And a hybrid world offers us, and also hold on to the things that have always been dear to us.

Jill Creighton [00:12:44]:

I wanna talk a little bit about your publications. You've had quite a career publishing books on a number of things, including theory to practice, ethical decision making, executive transitions. What inspired you to write on these topics?

W. Houston Dougharty [00:12:57]:

Well, all of those opportunities came about because of Colleagues that I've had through NASPA, folks who are faculty friends, who were once colleagues, who then wanted a practitioner to join them in a scholarly exercise. And I think if you're referring to the case some of the case study books I've helped work on, I think in many ways, there's no better training Then trying to think about how one applies through the practice. I also was invited to be part of the executive transitions book that, You know, it was all about sort of going from the world of AVP or dean to VP. And, again, the chapter I helped write with Joannes Van Heke In that book was about how you take change theory and how you take a theory around leadership and apply it to the practical nature Of understanding a new campus and understanding a new role on campus. So that space of theory and practice link has always really intrigued me, And I've been so thankful, Flo Hamrick and me and Benjamin and and, you know, the folks who have invited me to really be a practitioner or scholar and join them In writing about that theory and practice world.

Jill Creighton [00:14:10]:

Because you have participated in a book literally with the word transitions in the title, I would love to know if you have any nuggets that you'd like to share for current practitioners that are looking at that switch from number 2 to number 1.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:14:23]:

It's a fascinating time in one's professional life when you think about that shift. And and I distinctly remember having conversations about Never wanting to be a VP because I loved being an AVP or a number 2 so much. And I was always afraid That if I became a vice president, and then, of course, I ended up being a vice president for almost 20 years, that I would lose contact every day with students. And what I realized was that that was my responsibility, that that there was no institution that could take The posture that as a VP, you can't hang out with students as much or you can't be in their lives as actively. But that's a choice I had to make. And, consequently, as I looked at VP Jobs, I had to make sure that I was taking a position At an institution that shared that value of mine, that value and that vocational dedication to having relationships with both undergraduate and, when possible, graduate students. And I basically found that at the 4 places where I was an SAO. I was able to make that part of my life, and it was still really foundational for me since I was So often the only person at the cabinet level who knew a lot of students by first name and knew their experience, and my job was to help represent them.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:15:48]:

Right. So I'm so glad that I didn't shy away from advancing to the vice president seat, But I'm equally thrilled that I did so with a commitment to staying in touch with the student experience.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:02]:

When you think about how your roles evolved in your career, how did your relationships with students transition as you kind of moved up the proverbial ladder.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:16:11]:

At several places, I was known by students as the vice president who doesn't seem like 1. In that folks who may be listening to this, you know me know I'm not a very formal person. Now I grew up in the southwest where we say y'all and where it's laid back and where it's unusual to wear a tie. And and I was able to take that to lots of parts of the country. When I was offered the job at Hofstra right outside of New York City, there were other administrators there who thought, well, maybe this guy's not gonna be a very good batch because he's he doesn't act or look very vice presidential. He's not very, serious, or he's not very, buttoned up. And what I found is that at all of the institutions where I was lucky to work, there were students who loved the fact that I was Informal. And that and that doesn't mean I didn't take my job incredibly seriously and that I didn't realize that my job was was helping build buildings and hire staff and and enforce policy.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:17:07]:

But again, before this notion of both and, that it can be both and. I could still be my Rather casual, friendly self and also be a very competent and a very successful administrator. And then in fact, Having the opportunity to be in the student section at ball games and at lectures and concerts and plays with them and Sitting with them and having lunch with them and having weekly office hours made me better at being a competent Administrator because I was in more in touch with what the student experience was.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:45]:

One of the reasons I love serving in the CSAO COC is because I get to learn from our students every day. I learn so much from our population here at my current university. We come from so many diverse grounds. Wondering if you can share with us maybe a nugget that you've learned from a student over the years.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:18:03]:

Sure. I have particularly loved Getting to know student leaders. And I've, you know, I've advised student government and so I think particularly of 1 student who I worked with very closely at Sure. Who was I haven't been a member of a a group led organization. She was the president of Panhellenic, and She taught me a sense of language, a sense of understanding values around fraternity and sorority life, but also how to mediate. We were working on a building project, and the ways she mentored me And helping represent the administration with students who are so passionate about space and about their organizations. I was made a much better administrator for spending the time with Reba and having her be feeling like I could sit back and say, Reba, this is your expertise. These are the people that you know so much better than I do, and you know their organizations better than I do.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:19:02]:

I'm gonna take your lead As we try to compromise on some situations here, and then she just did brilliantly. And as I think about mentors I've had, I have her on my list of mentors as someone who is and then she went on to do our our graduate degree at Hofstra. And coincidentally, through four 3 or 4 years after she graduated, she also saved my life by donating a kidney to me when I was in a health crisis.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:26]:

Oh my goodness.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:19:27]:

And she was one of 75 or 80 students who volunteered to be tested when I was in the last stages of renal failure. And, you know, she she came to me and she said, from the first Time I met you at orientation, I knew I wanted to be a vice president for student affairs someday. And even if I never become 1, my kidney will be. And, you know, it's just remarkable that this student who has a 19 or 20 year old impacted my life so remarkably As a professional, Nao has sort of become part of our family by literally giving up herself to save my life.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:59]:

That's amazing.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:20:00]:

That may not have been the answer you were thinking about when you thought about what I've learned from a student. But

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:06]:

This is exactly why we ask open ended questions. We always get these rich stories. It's beautiful. Houston, you're now in the retired space, and I'm wondering tell us about that experience of moving from what is a very fast pace and demanding job at the CSAO level into a life where you can make a lot more of your own choices.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:20:28]:

Well, in some ways, I was benefited by having COVID be the few years right before. I will and also have this medical leave from my kidney transplant because My wife, Kimberly, and I were actually really concerned about what life would be for me after retirement because student affairs has been for me a lifestyle, not just Not and it's been a vocation and a lifestyle, not just a job. And she always said, what are you gonna do without a campus? You have had a campus for 45 years. And so in many ways, having the world sort of slow down around me with COVID, I realized that there are things I love to read. You know, I've always been very interested in the arts, and I've been very interested in athletics. I was able to dive into those in a way that I didn't realize that I hadn't really had the time to do that while I was on a campus as fully engaged. And don't get me wrong. I absolutely loved that engagement.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:21:23]:

I wouldn't have traded that for anything. But what it did was it taught us both that there is life for me Off campus and yet I've spent 40 years as someone who has embraced a vocation of service And now I'm figuring out ways to embrace avocations of service. Just today, I spent 3 hours volunteering at The local food bank here in Santa Fe, and I'm getting involved in Big Brothers, Big Sisters. I'm on the board of the New Mexico NPR Geek Geek, so The KUNM radio station I'm on the I've been appointed to that board. So I've been able to sort of find ways, and I'm Still finding ways. I mean, who knows what that will be in the next 20, 25 years of my life. But service to others is important to me, and so it was really important To Kimberly and me that we find ways coming back to my hometown. I don't think I mentioned that, but I grew up in Santa Fe, New Mexico.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:22:16]:

I left for 44 years and then we bought a house Five blocks from the house I grew up in, and so I'm rediscovering my hometown through sort of a lens of service. Yesterday, I volunteered at a college fair at the high school I went to Santa Fe Prep. In 2 weeks, I'm going to be at homecoming at Puget Sound because I'm on the alumni council. So you can't really get me off campus. I'm also doing a little bit of consulting. I'm doing some executive coaching with a vice president in Pennsylvania. I'm gonna be working with Some folks in student affairs at University of New Mexico, but just in sort of a consulting kind of space. So I read 5 newspapers a day every morning.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:22:52]:

We love that. I walk my dog for 6 or 7 miles every day. My wife and I have nice long conversations and have time to go to dinner in a way that we haven't for the last 35 years. So that's sort of how I'm conceptualizing. I'm only 3 months in to formal retirement having left New York on June 1st and coming back home to Santa Fe.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:13]:

It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:19]:

Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world. And as always, there's a ton of things happening in NASPA, And I always love being able to share with you some of the great things that are happening. The NASBA Foundation is pleased to recognize outstanding members of the student affairs and higher education community through the pillars of the profession award and one of the foundation's highest honors. This award comes from you, our members and supporters, as a way to pay tribute to your fellow colleagues who represent Outstanding contributions to the field and our organization. The NASPA Foundation board of directors is honored to designate the, pillar of the profession to the following individuals, Teresa Claunch, associate vice president for student life and dean of students at Washburn University, Danielle DeSowal, clinical professor and coordinator of the higher education and student affairs master's program at Indiana University, Martha And Cezzle, associate vice president for student affairs, California State University Fullerton. Amy Hecht, vice president for student affairs at Florida State University. Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs, University of Michigan Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:29]:

Kimberly Lowery, director of college leadership and impact, the Aspen Institute. Edward Martinez, associate dean for student affairs, Suffolk County Community College, Jukuru or KC Limimji, vice president for student affairs, Southern Methodist University, Ramon Dunnech, associate vice president, University of Nevada, Reno. Adam Peck, posthumously awarded Assistant vice president for student affairs at Illinois State University. Christine Quamio, interim assistant vice provost for diversity and inclusion, University of Hawaii at Manoa, Darby Roberts, Director, department of student affairs planning assessment and research, Texas A&M University, Marcela Runnell, vice president for student life, and dean of students at Mount Holyoke College. Tiffany Smith, director of research, American Indian Science and Engineering Society. Don Stansbury, vice president for student affairs, Clayton State University. Belinda Stoops, associate vice president for student health and wellness at Boston College. Mary Blanchard Wallace, assistant vice president for student experience, University of Alabama at Birmingham, and Leslie Webb, Vice provost for student success in campus life, University of Montana.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:38]:

If I accidentally said the names of these amazing The Jewel is wrong. I am so sorry. I want to say thank you to all of them for all of their unwavering support, for our association, for the profession, and congratulations on this amazing honor to each and every one of them. The pillars of the profession program also allows for you to be able to help The foundation in many different ways. You can give a gift in the name of one of these pillars to support them and also to Support the NASPA Foundation and all of the great work that they do to be able to push our profession forward. I highly encourage you to go to the NASPA website to the foundation's page, and you can give a gift of any amount in the name of any one of these pillars to support them. You can also support multiple pillars if you want to. Highly encourage you to go support Pillars today and be able to continue supporting our foundation in so many different ways.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:45]:

Also, on top of the pillars of the profession, the foundation also Selects a distinguished pillar of the profession award. The 2024 John l Blackburn distinguished pillar of the profession award is given to 2 different individuals, including Sherry Callahan, retired vice chancellor for student affairs at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro, and posthumously to Teresa Powell, vice president for student affairs at Temple University. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening And allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers Or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself Where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to Think beyond what's available right now to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association because through doing that, all of us are stronger and The association is better.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:35]:

Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:39]:

Chris, it's always such a pleasure to hear from you on NASPA World and what's going on in and around NASPA. So, Houston, we have reached our lightning round where I have about 90 seconds for you to answer 7 questions. You ready to do this?

W. Houston Dougharty [00:28:53]:

Let's do it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:55]:

Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

W. Houston Dougharty [00:29:00]:

Can I offer a couple?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:02]:

Sure

W. Houston Dougharty [00:29:02]:

I'm a huge fan of the blues, and queen of the blues, Koko Taylor, has a song that I absolutely love called let the good times roll, And I feel like my career has been a lot of good times. And then I I'm also a huge Talking Heads fan, and so whenever Talking Heads burning down the house Comes in, I'm ready, so I'd offer those too.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:21]:

Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?

W. Houston Dougharty [00:29:25]:

When I was five, I either wanted to be a farmer like my grandfather, or I was starting to think maybe I would be the governor of New Mexico.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:34]:

Not too late for that one. Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?

W. Houston Dougharty [00:29:40]:

I would say, if I could rattle off a couple, The 1st person who gave me a break in student affairs after having spent 10 years in admissions was Kathy McKay, Who was the dean of students then at Iowa State University.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:53]:

And I know Kathy.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:29:54]:

Okay. So Kathy and I are are very, very close. And in fact, she now lives in Denver, so we're only 5 hours from each other. So Kathy's who gave me my big break at Iowa State back in the day. At Iowa State, I learned so much from Nancy Evans, who was on the faculty there, and she and I both have clear research and research about students with disabilities in our areas of interest, and I learned so much from her and Ronnie Sandlow. I learned so much from Ronnie and and then Susan Pierce, who was the president of Puget Sound when I came back here in the Dean's student's office. Those are the women that come to mind most quickly for me. Sorry. I couldn't limit to one. And and there's so many others that I would love to include.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:34]:

So fun fact, I was working at CU Denver when Kathy was the dean at Metro State University of Denver. Yep. And then also when I took the ADP dean of students job at WSU, I replaced Cathy who was doing it internally. So I love these weird connections in student affairs.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:30:50]:

Isn't it Funny.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:51]:

Let's move on. Number 4, what's your essential student affairs read?

W. Houston Dougharty [00:30:55]:

Well, I'm very interested in sort of alternative notions of leadership, These are not new books at all, but there are these little thin books by a guy named Max Dupree. One is called Leadership is an Art And the other one is called Leadership Jazz. And I'm a huge blues and jazz person, so I particularly love that little volume, which basically talks about Great leadership is like leading a jazz band where everybody gets a solo, and I just love that notion of blending the notion of music and jazz.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:23]:

Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:31:26]:

So the hospital I was in in Manhattan had BBC America. I found this really great show called Grand Design where people dream about Where they would like to live and they renovate a space. And if you ever have connection to BBC Grand Design, It's just lovely, and it's British, so it's sort of witty. And I can't do anything with a hammer myself, so I love it when other people do.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:54]:

Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:31:58]:

The moth. I love to hear people tell stories, And so I've sort of gone back into the catalog of The Moth, and so I love The Moth.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:07]:

And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional?

W. Houston Dougharty [00:32:11]:

Oh my gosh. Of course, my family, you know, my loving wife, Kimberly, and our kids, Finn and Ali, who are amazing and and who grew up on college campuses across America, And I am so thankful to them for doing that. And in our preinterview chat, we talked about interns that I had, like Dave, and colleagues I've had, like Jim Hoppe and Debichi at Puget Sound. I mean, just and, you know, the amazing students who've really become part of my family. And 2 of them were in Santa Fe 2 weekends ago to seizes Oprah Byrne, which is a huge thing we do in Santa Fe. 1 came from Boulder, and 1 came from Boston. And, I mean, it's just, You know, we work in student affairs, and you will never be lonely because you're able to make these wonderful connections with people who are so dear.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:54]:

Houston, it's been just a joy to talk to you. So I know that, you know, we just met for the 1st time today, but I already feel like I know you a little bit, which is, such a lovely, warm feeling. And if others would like to connect with you after this show airs. How can they find you?

W. Houston Dougharty [00:33:07]:

Sure. Well, probably the easiest way is on LinkedIn, w Houston Dougharty, and I also, today, I was at at big brothers, and they said that we're gonna Google you. What are we gonna find? So I I went home and Googled myself, and there are a lot of student affairs related things. So you could Google w authority. You'd see all kinds of interesting things, and I'd love to reach out or talk to anybody who'd like to be in touch.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:28]:

Houston, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today.

W. Houston Dougharty [00:33:31]:

Thank you for the opportunity. It's been a real treat, and it's great to meet you.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:35]:

This has been an episode of essay voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This though is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at essay voices at NASPA.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show, and please like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, eye or wherever you're listening now.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:09]:

It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger casting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill l Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by Liu Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, Dr. Jill Creighton hosts Dr. Yisu Zhou, an accomplished university professor from the University of Macau. Dr. Zhou shares his unique journey from being an international student to becoming a professor and provides insights into the transitions in higher education, particularly in China and Asia.

The episode begins by introducing Dr. Yisu Zhou's background and educational journey. He highlights his early experiences as an English teacher in rural China, which sparked his interest in education. He pursued his PhD in the United States, which ultimately led him to his current role as a professor at the University of Macau.

Dr. Zhou emphasizes the impact of internationalization in higher education, discussing how the economic growth in China over the past two decades has created a demand for high-quality education. This demand has led to an increase in Chinese students pursuing undergraduate and graduate degrees abroad, especially in the United States. He also touches on the various stages of this trend, starting with Chinese students seeking doctoral programs overseas and later expanding to undergraduate programs.

The podcast delves into the differences between teaching styles in the West and East, highlighting the smaller class sizes and active communication in Western universities compared to the more lecture-focused approach in many Eastern institutions. Dr. Zhou suggests that educators and student affairs professionals should understand these cultural differences and proactively support international students in adapting to the new learning environment.

Dr. Zhou encourages student affairs professionals to be patient and understanding when working with students from different cultural backgrounds. He explains that while students from Asia may initially appear passive, they are actively processing information and sometimes take longer to initiate help-seeking behavior due to cultural differences.

The podcast concludes with Dr. Zhou emphasizing that international students can be valuable assets to higher education programs, as they bring strong work ethics and a commitment to academic excellence. He also highlights the need for international students to develop skills for navigating diverse and complex educational systems, which can differ significantly from their home countries.

This episode offers valuable insights for student affairs professionals and educators, providing a better understanding of the challenges and opportunities that come with the internationalization of higher education and the diverse cultural backgrounds of students.

Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]:

Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 9 on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, And I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Welcome back to another episode of SA Voices from the Field, where today I'm delighted to bring you a conversation with an accomplished university professor from the University of Macau. Isoo Cho is an associate professor at the faculty of education and by courtesy, the department of sociology at the University of Macau. He earned his PhD team from Michigan State University's College of Education. Joe's doctoral dissertation focused on the teaching profession, specifically out of field teachers and utilize a large scale survey from OECD. Before attending MSU, Joe received his bachelor's degree in statistics from East China Normal University and worked as an English teacher in rural Shanxi province from 2005 to 2006, where his passion for understanding the educational process bloomed.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:06]:

Joel employs a sociological perspective when examining various policy issues, including school finance, teacher professionalization, and higher education cation reform. His work has been published in Discourse, Sociological Methods and Research, Chinese Sociological Review, international journal of educational development, and other notable journals. Zhou has also been feasted on various Chinese media outlets, such as the paper Peng Pai Xing Wen, Beijing News, Xing Jing Bao, and China Newsweek, Zhongguo Xing Wen, Zhoukan. In the University of Macau community. Joe is deeply committed to teaching and service. He created the 1st generation course aimed at raising global awareness for undergraduate students across all majors and departments. And with an innovative approach to nurturing students from diverse backgrounds, this course is widely accepted by those students and running at full capacity every year. Professionally, he's actively engaged across the university and scholarly community, and he received the outstanding reviewer award from occasional researcher in 2015.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:04]:

Joel's service work reflected his thinking of higher education as an ecology of knowledge experts. He's penned a 5 year strategic plan, advise on a library strategic plan, and architected a doctoral of education program. He is the recent recipient of the faculty service award for 2017, 18, and also so 21/22. Isu, we're so glad to have you on the show today.

Yisu Zhou [00:02:25]:

Thank you very much for having me, Jill.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:27]:

And even better for me that we're in the same time zone, that as a gift I don't get on the show a lot. Yes. Yes. You had lots of international people appearing on our show.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:35]:

And you're at the University of Macau, how so folks know listeners who are not familiar with the geography of China. Macau is in the southern part of China. It's a beautifully warm place. It's also famous for casinos, amongst other things.

Yisu Zhou [00:02:48]:

Like Orento, Las Vegas, if you want a short metaphor.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:52]:

You can even go to, like, the MGM in The Venetian in Macau.

Yisu Zhou [00:02:55]:

It's actually the same.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:56]:

But that is not the reason you're in Macau. No. So So we're glad to talk to you today about your experiences as a professor of higher education studies. And normally, I think our listeners are exposed to professors of higher ed who are pretty western centric. So this is a great opportunity to learn more about higher education and the study of higher cation in Asia. But before we talk about your expertise in the transformations and transitions of higher ed in China, I'd love to talk to you first about how you became a professor.

Yisu Zhou [00:03:25]:

Oh, yeah. No problem.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:27]:

So what's the story?

Yisu Zhou [00:03:29]:

I think you can say part of that is is running through the family. So both my Parents are academe, working in the, academia, which give me some exposure to how institutions work in the Chinese setting when I was little. But I I didn't actually made up my mind before well, I think well into my PhD program. When I grow up, I wanna be a scientist. So I think in college, I study, statistics. So, kind of the applied field of, mathematics in a sense that I wanna things, and, I wanna run data. I'm really interested in data as a kid, when I grow up. But, after college, I also wanna get some exposure about Interacting with people.

Yisu Zhou [00:04:07]:

I'm kind of, you know, in that, gap sort of a mentality, that I'm interesting a lot of things, but I really I had a mid in my mind about what I'm going to commit my life to doing. So I spent a year actually teaching in a rural village in the Western China, which kind of a place they have a poverty line, which give me a lot of experience working with, rural children, rural parents. And I taught English at 6th grade, in that particular school, for the year. So I really start to think about how I can observe social life, Particularly school life. That is, I I think the main motivation and the main sort of event that, direct me toward a study of education. So after that year, I went to the United States. I, went to Michigan State to do my PhD degree. I first Enrolled in, psychometric program because of my statistics background, and people really want me to contribute to that.

Yisu Zhou [00:05:03]:

And after 2 years, I found that my passion and my interest has, sort of shifted toward international and competitive education. So I'm trained as an international comparative, educator in my PhD program. And, well, Macau sort of come as a supply because I am the part of the, post, What we call, 2008 survivors of the, economic meltdown so that many, US universities, freeze hiring during the time. It's been actually, they fed. It's quite, last quite, for some time. So when I was in the job market in 2011, The the domestic job market is basically so competitive that there are only very handful places openings in that particular year. So when I was searching the catalog job postings on Chronicle, this place called University Macau sort of, appeared in my search. I actually have never heard of this university before, And this is really a new experience.

Yisu Zhou [00:05:59]:

I know places in Hong Kong because they are more established. They have university of Hong Kong and Chinese university of Hong Kong are the 2 sort of the star universities in a region, and people already know that. But never heard of University of Macau. So I did a little bit of research. I think, well, maybe I should try that mostly because it's close to home And it's an international environment which allows me to conduct international research and to teach in English and, had the opportunity to with a lot of, international colleagues. And, well, when I I didn't expect a lot, you know, when I submit my application, but think, like, 2, 3 weeks later, I got a call from my former dean, and he says, he just moved from, University of Virginia, actually, to Macau. And he's really looking for people who have received a very rigorous American style academic training to work with him. So, you know, we had a nice conversation.

Yisu Zhou [00:06:48]:

And he invited me over for a job talk. And, well, the rest is history.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:53]:

And you have since become quite an accomplished publisher share amongst many other things. I would encourage all of you to go look up Zhou Isu on, Google Scholar. You can see he's just got quite picture related to education in the Chinese region. But thinking about what you're studying now, what's your focus now in your work?

Yisu Zhou [00:07:12]:

So because I'm getting older and my also my role with inside institutions sort of transitioned toward more of the administrative side, I've been involving a lot of, program administration, my faculty administration, and, of course, some university side of business, which I think it give me a kinda unique Sort of an insider perspective in terms to understand how institution work. So my interest gradually shifts toward this institutional perspective about university, I think higher, education because my current working situation and the network I've been building because of my professional lives. So I think recent years, my interest gradually shift toward, understanding, higher education development in China, in Particular internationalization of higher education in China. I think that's one thing currently I'm doing some research at the moment.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:00]:

The institution I'm working for currently is a great example of internationalization.

Yisu Zhou [00:08:05]:

Exactly. I really had a privilege and opportunity to visit DKU during the summer. And it's really impressed me and opened my mind. We have so much to learn from you guys, a top elite private institution and working in China And catering to a lot of Chinese student demand and, to really establish yourself as an em embracer of this movement of, internationalization of higher ed in China.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:29]:

And the joint venture universities in China are varieties of years old. We have a neighbor, Shaqingqiao, Liverpool, which is much to older than us, but our closest most similar university, NYU Shanghai, is the same age as us, and that's a decade. So it's to a wide variety. There's also the University of Nottingham Ningbo down the road, which, again, also much older than us, Wenjoking, and then some that are younger than us like Tianjin Juilliard. So it's all over the map.

Yisu Zhou [00:08:54]:

Yeah. It is. It's it's all over the map. And I think from a policy perspective, China really sort of embraced In, multifaceted, you can say, strategies in terms of working with international partners. We have American University, European University, Right. Coming to China, setting up joint ventures. There are also several, Hong Kong institutions. They have different levels of cooperation in China.

Yisu Zhou [00:09:16]:

Right. They have joint ventures. They have sites like campus. But most of them actually have a research institution set up in China.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:22]:

So let's go back and think about the transition of the movement to begin opening doors for internationalization of education in this part of the world. What can you tell us about that history?

Yisu Zhou [00:09:34]:

I think from our perspective, there is a demand and the, sort of, the need for a high Quality, higher education really came, dates back to early 2000 when, economically, China took off, Which cultivated a very strong local base of parents who have done business with, western, partners, Or they have traveled the world. They have seen places elsewhere, and because of free flow of information allows them to understand and to see how Western education sort of, opens up a different kind of possibility for their child. So I think this is so, you know, if if if you count that, it's been about 20 years up to this point. And I think we can divide it into, like, several stages because at first, it's most about sending your kids overseas. And that trend first started with the PhD programs because most parents just cannot afford, Right. A 4 year, college life for their kids in the United States. And the PhD and some master program, they do offer very generous, scholarships For those academically talented Chinese students, so you know? But the the numbers are usually not very large, right, because their Resources is all are always limited. And then starting, I think, a decade into the 1st decade of 21st century, really sees that Chinese parents, they, they become richer, and the opportunities really open up.

Yisu Zhou [00:11:05]:

Because if we count the kind of international program that is available to Chinese student, Australia and the UK are the 1st large market that sort of opens fully embrace, you know, to the, Chinese student, and they embrace them very Politically in the US because the selectivity and different tiers and such large and diverse system also is very attractive gradually to Chinese student. And because I I think one big attraction about the US higher education is this economy. It's so robust and it's so diverse, which means the student can always think about, right, what I can do after graduation. That, you know, if you go to some smaller places, 2, 3 years later, you need to find a job. Right? And that might not be enough those kind of high quality jobs around. So I think the the 2010 really sees kind of a a higher peak for Chinese student, undergraduate student going overseas. And, of course, this trend also spill over to other segments. So we also, you know, if you read the news, there are Private high schools, in US or even public schools, they cater to international student.

Yisu Zhou [00:12:13]:

Chinese student, of course, because of the large number, A Korean student, a Japanese student, a student from Middle East, you know, these places where they see a large economic booms and a student wants to have an different opportunities. So I think that sort of these trends sort of coalesced together, making the 2nd decade of 21st century really, really is about international students going into US and going into other western market sort of in large numbers.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:40]:

So with that transition of of this trend of students going abroad, when they come back with those skills, How has that impacted always of life, always of being with that education and skill set coming back?

Yisu Zhou [00:12:54]:

I think from my own traction with students and my observations with private business owners or, just talking to graduates coming, you know, Having obtained a western education degree, I think this is really a process of different cultures kind of, mingling together And creating a kind of a hybrid person that they many Chinese students still have a very strong Chinese identity, you know, growing up And coming back to home, but their years, in America, in Australia, or in other places sort of open up their horizon in a sense that they understand, Things such as diversity, things such as, critical thinking. These things are not did not play such an important role in a domestic higher education. So, You know, when we compare them and with their friends who didn't choose to go to abroad.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:45]:

And we have some incredible universities around this region as well places like Tsinghua, Peking, Pudong, etcetera. What do you see as the biggest difference between the different styles of teaching in the undergraduate frame.

Yisu Zhou [00:13:58]:

1st, I I think the institutional setting is really different. Right? So the one thing with DKU and, and, for instance, NYU really struck me is the how small the class size are. The class size are really small, which means individual instructor can give a sort of a tailored Or individualized time to a student to catering to a wide range of needs. Right? Questions you can ask a question immediately. All Almost always. Right? And you can get instant feedback on these kind of things. But I think in China, kind of a broader if you wanna situate this question in border eastern Asian context, A kind of lecture style larger classroom is the standard format of teaching and learning. And in that kind of format, Students' own diligence and their own hardworking is kind of required by default.

Yisu Zhou [00:14:46]:

So no matter what kind of questions you Have you need to think about the solution your by yourself first. This is the, like, your first option. And then if you can solve it, maybe you can try to look for help from the instructor. Right. So the teacher's role really different because of such large classrooms and because I think mainly towards in century old kind of educational philosophy about how people should learn. But I think the, institutions such as DKU and, like I said, NYU, they offer us a different kind of possibility of how teachers can interact with student and how teacher a student can learn. And based on my Oh, understanding. Student really love that.

Yisu Zhou [00:15:23]:

And, that sort of enriched their experience and helped them to overcome a lot of, difficulties, I didn't go study.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:30]:

You've also been an international student yourself, and I'm wondering if you have any advice for our student affairs professionals who are listening on how best to support tuning into US education or US study or even just living in a new country.

Yisu Zhou [00:15:44]:

I think study abroad is really a very important lesson of my life. I have a lot of struggles, but I think overall, it is a very positive experience. I think for, student affairs, colleagues working in the US, you need to understand that student from the east and China and other parts of the, Asia, they're coming from quite different cultural background, Which means the student are accustomed to the kind of expectations in their home country or home culture. Most of these places sort of a Student are expected to follow an authority to not to sort of challenge the authority and not to break or to question the the rules the rules of the classroom, the rules of the institution, or even interhuman kind of, rules. So they might seem like these student are a little bit passive. I think the student, taking myself as an animal, we're always actively thinking about the situation, trying to decode a situation. It's just that our experience situate us through a certain kind of conditions that we Convinced essentially our mind convinced us, oh, you shouldn't ask this question at this particular time. You should find another, point.

Yisu Zhou [00:16:52]:

But I think in the US, it's always the communication part is always real time. Right? You can always throw a question. You can always seek any clarification. You can always seek help. This is not something embarrassing. This is actually supported. And, many institutions actually have developed and have very capable professionals to try to help student to do that. But I think the first step is I mean, the the expectation is the student need to make the first move.

Yisu Zhou [00:17:19]:

Right. They need to go out to reach out to seek clarifications, but that first move sometimes can happen quite late. Not the first day of the orientation may be not even the 1st day of the class. Might you know, it happened 2 or 3 weeks after class sort of started After some, after the student is confident enough that they convince themselves they have interpreted the situation correctly, and then they they trying to go out to say, Hey. I can't I don't really understand this. Can you really help me? So I think a lot of hand holding and to opening up yourself to the international student is really something very important.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:53]:

I really appreciate that advice because the perspective taking of what I might expect from an authority figure in my home country is truly very different in the US compared to a lot of cultures in this part of the world, which means that help seeking behavior here that we're always trying to draw out of our students. We might need to go an extra step or 3 in order to explain why that's appropriate and why that is culturally spected.

Yisu Zhou [00:18:17]:

My own experience tells me that in many cases, in the question and answer sessions, in orientation, in a big event When we sort of prepare a lot of materials, we tell the students, sometimes we don't receive sort of a warm kind of a response It which might happen actually in the US context. Right? The US student are most time, they are very active, and they won't hesitate to throw questions at you. But in this Part of the world, sometimes the student a little wants to sit back and they want to deliver their questions in different channels. So that's something I think for any student affairs officers or people who travel, to this part of the world to teach and to engage with student, I think they should realize That's kind of the cultural difference.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:00]:

Are there any other thoughts you'd like to share on the transitions of higher education that you study in in China, in East Asia, or just any thoughts for our mostly western audience.

Yisu Zhou [00:19:09]:

I think the Chinese student and many, Asian student, they will be a big asset to the program. These are hard workers, and they sort of really cherish the kind of, academic excellence because they have been expected to perform at relatively high level since they're a kid. The kind of things I think they will learn, and definitely, I think that's that's something they should learn, is the communication skills, the kind of skills how to navigate themselves in a very complex system from the studies of a competitive education. This is one takeaway message that US education system is so different. A comprehensive high school system actually gave the student quite early on experience. I mean, It's not all positive, but it gives most student experience to navigate through a bunch of peers, which are heterogeneous. Right? And they have very diverse interest, And they formed little clicks, and then you need to find your best friend and find the resources and to find the teachers that you can work with. And most Asian students, they don't actually learn that until the university level because they have been segmented in a sort of uniformly set up format throughout a lower secondary an upper secondary school.

Yisu Zhou [00:20:19]:

So this is really a challenge for them. That is for them to develop the kind of skills to work in a diverse environment.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:27]:

And that's not to say 1 is better or worse than the other, just the systems are entirely unique and different.

Yisu Zhou [00:20:33]:

Exactly.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:34]:

And that means the students are coming with different skill sets. So you might have, you know, 1 student who's better at help seeking behavior, but the other who is just quite a lot better at absorbing information. And it just depends on the strength that we need in the moment.

Yisu Zhou

Definitely.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:46]:

It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Christopher Lewis [00:20:52]:

Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world. And as always, there's a ton of things happening in NASPA, and I always love being able to share with you Some of the great things that are happening. The 2024 Dungey Leadership Institute DOI faculty application is currently live. The Dungey Leadership Institute is a signature initiative of the NASPA undergraduate fellows program with the following learning outcomes for fellows gaining Foundational knowledge of the history and functions of student affairs in higher education, gain knowledge of contemporary issues in higher education, Participate in intergroup dialogue around issues of equity and social justice, collaborate with peers to research and present ethical resolutions to current administrative and leadership issues in student affairs. Reflect on and articulate the influence of personal identities and histories on effective student affairs leadership and engage in professional networking with student affairs faculty and administrators. DLI directors, selected faculty members, and NASPA staff plan this 6 day leadership institute to develop leadership skills, enhance cultural competency, and prepare fellows for a career in student affairs. Specifically, faculty will colead a cluster of 8 to 10 students through the DLI experience And provide support to all students attending the institute.

Christopher Lewis [00:22:16]:

Travel, meals, and housing are provided by NASPA and our host institutions. Faculty within this program are all current NASPA members. Applicants need to have at least 5 full time years of professional experience post your masters at the time of application. NEUF alumni are also eligible to apply with at least 2 years of professional experience post masters. If you apply for this, you must be available June 20th through 26, 2024 for the actual institute. You can apply through Friday, November 13th, and go to the NASPA website to be able to submit your demographic information, your resume or CV application questions and reference information for consideration. NASBA is currently looking for committee members For the mid level administrators steering committee. In 2022, NASPA established the mid level administrators A steering committee to partner with NASPA staff to shape the ongoing development of NASPA's mid level initiatives.

Christopher Lewis [00:23:17]:

The steering committee works To ensure that mid level relevant programs are offered during regional and national events, NASPA's mid level administrator steering committee Strives to encourage excellence in the mid level positions through professional development, knowledge creation and sharing, networking opportunities, and recognition aimed at the roles of mid level administrators. The steering committee is comprised of 24 mid level administrators who serve at A wide variety of institutional types throughout NASPA's 7 regions. Steering committee members will serve staggered to your terms. If this sounds like something that you're interested in, I highly encourage you to go to the NASPA website to learn more about this. Typically, the time commitment is about 2 to 3 hours per month. I highly encourage you to consider this. Think about it as an opportunity to be able to give back to the association And help to steer NASPA toward providing quality professional development opportunities for mid level professionals. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association.

Christopher Lewis [00:24:23]:

So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within One of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself Where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself In that knowledge community, I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to Think beyond what's available right now to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, All of us are stronger, and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:44]:

Another wonderful NASPA world segment from you, producer Chris. Thank you again and again for giving us the updates on what's going on in and around NASPA. Alright. Isu, we have come to our lightning round. I have 7 questions for you to answer in about 90 seconds. You ready?

Yisu Zhou [00:26:01]:

Wow. I'm ready. Yes.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:03]:

Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Yisu Zhou [00:26:09]:

It's gotta be Oasis. I've been a fan since 1994.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:13]:

Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Yisu Zhou [00:26:17]:

A scientist.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:18]:

Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Yisu Zhou [00:26:21]:

I gotta be my PhD supervisor, Amita Sugar. Professor Sugar, if you're listening, you really made my world. You've taught me about professionalism with and care to the student, a true role model.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:33]:

Number 4, your essential student affairs read.

Yisu Zhou [00:26:36]:

I think any educator will benefit and read from John Dewey. I've been rereading Dewey a lot for our research project. And for nonfiction, actually, this summer, I've been reading a lot of La La Gwynne. She's my favorite American author, and her fantasy series, Earthsea, really gives this kind of a feminist kind of a perspective about how to approach different people.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:55]:

Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic.

Yisu Zhou [00:26:59]:

The slow horses on Apple TV starring Gary Old man.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:03]:

Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Yisu Zhou [00:27:07]:

Okay. There are 2. So there is a Chinese podcast. It's called left You're right. It's a very good conversational kind of intellectual podcast. The English podcast I spend most of time I think it's from NPR. I'm a big fan of their all sounds considerate Podcast. I've been I've been following them for over a decade.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:23]:

And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional?

Yisu Zhou [00:27:27]:

I wanna give a shout out to my student, my master and PhD student. No matter if if you are crunching numbers in your little cube or doing field interviews or working on Guys, I hope really hope that you've been enjoying the studies in these universities or anywhere in the world.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:43]:

It's been a wonderful and donating conversation today. I know I learned a lot from you. I'm sure that others have as well. If anyone would like to contact you after the show, how can they find you?

Yisu Zhou [00:27:52]:

I think the easiest way is to To search my name, Yisu Zhou on Twitter. I have a Twitter handle. You can also send me an email by, yisuzhou@gmail.com.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:00]:

Thank you so much, Isoo, for sharing your voice with us today.

Yisu Zhou [00:28:03]:

Really happy to be here. Thank you for hosting me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:07]:

This has been an episode of SA voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd Like to reach the show, you can always email us at essay voices at NASPA.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show, and please like, rate, and review us on Apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:47]:

This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill L. Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Assistance by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this episode of "Student Affairs Voices from the Field," Dr. Jill Creighton welcomes Brian Medina, the director of Bias Incident Support Services at the University of Maryland, College Park, for a conversation on transitions in Student Affairs. Brian, an openly queer genderqueer and Latinx sexual assault survivor with multiple disabilities, discusses zir journey and experiences.

Brian started zir career in student affairs in resident life and student conduct, eventually transitioning into the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) space. They emphasize the importance of authenticity and finding one's true self in the workplace, highlighting the role of supportive colleagues and institutions in this process.

They also share zir experience of transitioning in terms of gender presentation, including using gender-neutral pronouns (zee/zir) and embracing a more authentic self, both personally and professionally. Brian's journey has been marked by self-discovery, self-acceptance, and gaining the confidence to bring zir full self to work, which has been transformative.

Brian discusses the evolving landscape of bias response work in higher education and its intersection with Title IX regulations. They emphasize the importance of building solidarity across different identities and experiencing intersectionality in tackling power-based violence.

The conversation also touches on the regional differences in student affairs work and the impact of state legislation on diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts in higher education.

Brian reflects on zir transition from a career in residence life to DEI work, highlighting the challenges and successes along the way. They acknowledge the frustrations of job searching and the importance of resilience in navigating the field.

As co-chair elect of the NASPA Gender and Sexuality Knowledge Community (KC), Brian talks about the KC's activities and its commitment to expanding its reach by collaborating with other KCs, fostering inclusivity, and encouraging involvement from a diverse range of professionals in the field.

Brian wraps up the conversation by encouraging listeners to embrace transitions as part of life's journey and to remember the resilience and progress made by previous generations in creating a more inclusive world.

Overall, this episode explores the theme of transitions in higher education, emphasizing the importance of authenticity, self-discovery, and solidarity in the field of student affairs. It also highlights the evolving nature of diversity, equity, and inclusion work and the significance of regional context in higher education.

Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]:

Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season nine on transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your essay Voices from the Field host on today's episode of Essay Voices, I'm pleased to bring you a delightful conversation with Brian Medina. Pronouns z here. Hears.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:31]:

Brian has been a social justice activist within higher education for nearly two decades. Brian has worked in New Hampshire, Maryland, Ohio, and is now the director of Bias Incident Support Services at the University of Maryland, College Park. As an openly queer genderqueer and Latinx sexual assault survivor with multiple disabilities, zee advocates for marginalized communities to center those harmed by systemic oppression and trauma. Brian is also the co chair elect of the NASPA gender and sexuality knowledge community. Brian. Welcome to the pod.

Brian Medina [00:01:04]:

Thank you. Lovely to be with you.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:06]:

I'm so glad to talk to you today about your transition story. When we reached out to the KC leaders in NASPA, your response was one of the ones that immediately stood out because you've had so many experiences with transition in the last couple of years and we always love to start by getting to know our guests. You're at UMD now you're also leading in the KC space. So what was your come up both in the student affairs realm as well as in the KC realm?

Brian Medina [00:01:31]:

Thank you for asking. Brian Medina z here and heres and coming up through resident life and student conduct and then also now being in the De I space, the last three years have certainly been a journey. I wouldn't have said if you asked me when I first started my career where I would end up. This would be where it would be. And I'm so grateful and delighted that I can be in this space, particularly, actually, in some ways, very connected, the KC space. I started out with the gender and sexuality casey, different name at the time. And then have been involved with multiple other tam KC. Menamasculinities KC.

Brian Medina [00:02:06]:

And trying to really see the kind of connectedness of not just the work that I do, but my full existence and my dignity and an authentic self, not just at work, but beyond as well.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:38]:

One thing you just introduced really resonates with me, which is how do you find your authentic self and feel like you can show up with your whole being at work every day? You mentioned your pronouns are z here, hears. And then also when you reached out to us, you let us know you've had some transitions in your gender presentation in the last couple of years. So I'm wondering if you're willing to tell us about how that impacted your ability to show up at work finally as your whole self and also what you want the profession to know about supporting other professionals who are going through that transition.

Brian Medina [00:03:07]:

It's a wonderful question. Thank you. For me, over the past decade or more, I have been out as genderqueer. I've been using these pronouns z here and heres for about eight of those years. And I will say that it's been mostly in the last three, three and a half years. Although, obviously, that's overlapping with our COVID existence. That being in space, certainly virtually, but in physical space with folks to explore a bit about, my body to check in with and fortunately, with my university, my supervisor, my colleagues. Have been so supportive and really showing up for me and alongside me in zir own authentic selves, thus giving me in some way, some invitation and welcoming space.

Brian Medina [00:03:46]:

So, yeah, the last couple of years have certainly been an exploration of I'm extending myself with I wear dresses now exclusively. And I wouldn't have said that four or five years ago, wearing dangly earrings, as I have on right now, and I wouldn't have said that a few years ago. And for me, it has been a combination of both the opportunity and the kind of welcoming space that I have at my current institution. But I will say that some of it has come more internally of feeling confident to be able to bring my full self and share and support various populations on campus in a different way. And it has been the best part of my life over these last couple of years, for sure.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:20]:

Part of our theme of transitions on this season of the Pod is really thinking about transitions from all perspectives. And you are really our first guest who's come on this season to talk about that internal transition as the biggest driver for other areas of success. So let's hear more about what that internal transition has done for you in terms of your professional development internally.

Brian Medina [00:04:42]:

I think another factor that I want to make mention here is that I'm also a student in the School of Social Work at the University of Maryland, Baltimore, and that has coincided a good bit with my work related activities and certainly my responsibilities. I'm in charge of all bias response for the entire campus. And I will say that showing up in classroom settings, in one sense, showing up in work settings has caused me to reflect right, not just on an intellectual basis, but a true connection with my body, checking in with other folks and how they're feeling in space as we talk about marginalization writ large. And so that internal processing for me has been ongoing, for sure it has been over decades. But I will say the last couple of years I've had the encouragement and the kind of exploration also with a really good therapist and some good friends who've checked in on me and kind of allowed me that space to be able to express myself and therefore I'm much more readily interested and be able to explore that with them as well.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:36]:

I think the work you're doing at UMD is really difficult work. Right. You're looking into all areas of bias, and we've seen a lot of transition in the way that we're managing our university and institutional responses to that work in the last couple of years. And we're also expecting a major Title IX rule drop to change and rock our worlds one more time. I'm really crossing my fingers. It's the last time that doed makes that happen. But can you talk about your transitions in that space as well, given the way we talk about bias and response to bias now is just really different than even the way we would have framed it in 2013.

Brian Medina [00:06:10]:

Yeah, my first inclination and thinking is as you're referencing the regulations coming out for Title Nine soon, and in 2011 when I first really started doing work around sexual misconduct and sexual response, sexual assault response, that was kind of on the earlier days of me even coming out as a survivor of sexual violence. And so thinking about that transition coming out in a different lens than it would be in a queer space, and then kind of maybe a couple of years later sharing about my gender identity and sexual orientation as well, I think they really combined. And it was at a time and place, I think, in our society where there was a lot of momentum and drive to make change, but also maybe a lot of confusion as to what that meant. We got this guidance, but what does that apply? How do we actually launch programs and offices and Title IX offices? And even for De and I spaces, many offices didn't see the interrelationship of power based violence, sexual violence, as well as how that affected queer folks, BIPOC folks very uniquely. So, I will say over these last couple of years in that space, specifically in this kind of back and forth. Back and forth because of administrations and certainly across the country, many states who are enacting legislation to harm a whole host of populations, including trans folks. I will say that I think the center of mine for me has been building solidarity across difference rather than this simply being a movement inside one's identity, but across identities, folks that experience similar harms. So I'll use the comparison with sexual violence work.

Brian Medina [00:07:43]:

Being a survivor, I've actually been a volunteer for the largest national group, reign as a sexual violence hotline. I've been a volunteer for eleven years there, and that work and supporting survivors uniquely on a hotline like that has been so instrumental for me to be able to hold space, provide space, resources, checking in with folks who are experiencing other identity based harms like anti blackness, like anti trans sentiment on our campuses. So I see them as very much connected as how we address trauma by holding space and support for folks uniquely in zir identities, but also seeing that we are more full amongst one another rather than just in ourselves.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:24]:

You've transitioned also all over the country. You've been in the Midwest and the East Coast and a couple of other places. Do you see the work shifting its orientation or its priorities as you move around the country?

Brian Medina [00:08:36]:

Absolutely. And I think that many of my peers and friends in the field would acknowledge that depending on what state you're in or region of the country you're in, not only does the state legislation afford or deny you opportunities, and access within your identities and your existence. It also kind of more broadly provides either a chilling effect or an emboldening effect for folks to make change, to do programmatic risks that maybe they wouldn't have taken some other spaces. So I'll note a couple of pieces. When I first started off in resident life, it was up in New Hampshire, a very white space, but also progressive in some areas around sustainability, not so much around racial justice. And so I really entangled that because most of our students of color were student athletes and trying to navigate how to support students uniquely in zir identities but also seeing the friction that they're finding in the community was very much top of mind. And that actually aligned very similarly to my experience in Ohio in a very rural white space. Whereas in Maryland, being a much more perceivably progressive state, I found a much different experience where folks were much more open, interested in gaining resources and also promoting a bit more progressive ideals to support marginalized populations than I had in the other spaces.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:49]:

That must really shift where you put energy in terms of training for your campus community and also how you're able to frame responses. So with that all kind of put together, what is the common thread between all of those experiences?

Brian Medina [00:10:05]:

I don't know if I can pull out one specific common thread. One of the things that I came to find early on in the career. Granted, I was in resident life spaces and so I was often doing social justice or de. And I work on the side either for RA trainings or for recruitments, doing programming, advising on the side from what folks perceived as a generalist position that I had to do many other things. And I'd say that that common thread of showing empathy, compassion, concern for the other. I was also a philosophy major, so I should share that from the share there from the get go that as a philosophy major I was always intuiting and thinking through and processing and reflecting. And now as a social work student, kind of that common thread around psychology and caring for full well being, if there is a common thread, it really is seeing the fullness of one of many of society as interconnected and there be no way for us to completely disconnect that from one another. And so in these various career points I would say that De I and social justice was a common thread, even if it wasn't my actual position, responsibility.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:10]:

Societal structures and pressures are fairly consistent within the culture of the United States. They can be similar to neighboring countries. I can tell you from my own experience living in Asia now our structures around justice and our concepts around justice, marginalization, oppression, they don't apply at all here. It's the wildest thing to break my brain in that way and to stop looking at certain situations through my Americanized justice perspective has been a real interesting challenge. And I've come to the conclusion that dei work is so important in the US. Because of the structures of the way the organizational kind of hierarchies are created in the US. And then when I got here, it was like square pay, ground hole. Some of the concepts are similar in terms of wealth, wealth gap and things like that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:55]:

But the idea of race is different here because it is kind of a fairly monoracial society. Ethnicity plays a much larger role. Individual achievement stands out even though it's a collectivist society. It's so fascinating. So it's interesting to hear you talk about it from that lens as well. I wanted to hear more about your transition from a res life professional to deib professional. More or less that res life space is one you occupied for 15 years, and a lot of times it can be both difficult from a job search perspective and difficult from an emotional perspective to leave res life and to go into other areas of higher education. So tell us about that.

Brian Medina [00:12:31]:

I appreciate this invitation and in all vulnerability and honesty, that road was filled with potholes and filled with roadblocks and filled with turns and detours. If you would have asked me when I first started my career if I would have been in res life for 15 years, I would have said absolutely not. That didn't make any sense, there's no way. But as I continued to grow in that, being on call was always a challenge. But I will say that I adapted to it. Different institutional structures. Being going from a smaller private liberal arts college in New Hampshire to then a more mid sized institution of Towson University in Maryland allowed me, I think, a different perspective because there's a much different resourced institution, public institution. I will say that part of my journey, because of thinking about this and around going to De I work specifically at Towson.

Brian Medina [00:13:20]:

That was where I came out in a lot of settings. That's where I found student groups that even though I wasn't a student, I was advising a couple of student groups within the queer community. I was attending social justice retreats and then helping to facilitate them. And so I think that even though I was very heavily as a position as a resident life director, being in Res Life, I was very much tapped into the ethos and the mores of deib in a way that I don't think most of my peers had access to. And that was a privilege that I had, but also something I sought after. Folks had kind of encouraged me and mentored me. I will say, as I continued through my Res Life career going on to be Assistant Director, then Director, associate Dean in Res Life, each of those elements of social justice had a ring to it, but it was mostly in those other institutions because they were smaller. Me bringing it to those institutions rather than me learning as I had at Towson and now being at University of Maryland, being the largest state school in the state, being at a place know, recently give them a little bit of props, they recently were named number one for LGBT students.

Brian Medina [00:14:18]:

Acceptance across the country from the Campus Pride Index. To see that there's not only an acceptance and embrace about who I am and my fullness, but also that students can get that experience also brings me joy. So I'll say that some of that transition from Res Life to Edib was organic in its own. And if I were to admit to you, I applied to many Res Life jobs to be a senior leader within ResLife and got turned down. And so there's much about failure as it was success throughout the process.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:49]:

That's a really important message in that job search transition. There are so many reasons that maybe the universe is pointing us in some directions sometimes, and other times it's just really, really frustrating. So I just want to give a shout out to all of you who are trying to make that next move up in the student affairs funnel. It is a real, real challenge when you're moving from that mid level professional and that assistant and associate director to that director space, because that funnel gets really, really tight at that level of organization. So I just want to cheer you on a little bit and let you know that I empathize. I understand.

Brian Medina [00:15:18]:

And you got this agreed. We can do this together.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:21]:

I want to chat a little bit about the gender and sexuality. Casey, you're currently occupying a co chair seat. Can you tell us more about the hopes for this year's KC activities, what spaces you're providing, and really how listeners and NAFA members can also find authentic space for themselves in the KC?

Brian Medina [00:15:41]:

I would certainly shout out to Antonio and Clint, our current KC chairs. I'm actually the chair elect. I'll be taking on this starting in March. But a lot of those responsibilities we've been sharing throughout this year as a know, as a small group that have really cared for one another, not just in terms of the tasks that we do for conferences and programs and receptions that is all important, but really holding space for each other throughout the year. When something is tragic on one campus, it's tragic for the rest of us as well and also uplifting. So going back to the job search process, when we see folks promoted or getting new positions, we also hold folks in that celebration and joy. One of the things that I'm really looking forward to in the gender and sexuality Casey is the expansion for us to connect with other KCS in collaborations. So the last few KC chair rotations have been a building up of that of building relationships with the Latinx Aokc, indigenous peoples, KC Wisa, women XKC, and to be able to see us as a gender sexuality KC be as kind of a point to various intersectional identities.

Brian Medina [00:16:43]:

To hold space within the KC, but also across NASPA and different other KC spaces has been a joy. I anticipate even more so as the years to come. So that's one of the target interests that I have. So folks listening out there want to get involved and they're eh this KC may be all one identity or maybe kind of stereotypically all gay white men. It is very much not at this point and certainly won't be in the future. We're recruiting a lot of folks and we'd love to have you as a part of that revolution toward more broadening of queerness.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:12]:

You also did an Essay Speaks very recently. Can you tell us, especially for those who are unfamiliar first, what is Essay speaks and how can folks find your conversation?

Brian Medina [00:17:22]:

Essay Speaks starting with what it is. It really is equivalent to what a Ted Talk would look like. So it's a ten to twelve minute talk. It's an opportunity for presenters. Rather than sharing kind of research or anything like that, it's really integrating our stories of who we are alongside kind of takeaways for audience members. And this is at the annual conference itself. So this past year in Boston and April I did share that from the topic of embodying gender fluidity, which in some ways is very relevant to the topic we're talking about in transition. I shared a bit of my journey over the course of my career and how I presented myself in my gender, how my gender fluidity and gender queerness have shown up in workspaces, but also other spaces given interest to anybody in the audience, those that are listening.

Brian Medina [00:18:05]:

And the video is out there if you want to check it out. NASPA has that available for folks to explore on zir own campuses, where they can advocate alongside zir trans non binary colleagues and students seeking some opportunities for healing. But also some joy along the ride. So I really encourage, if folks want to check that out, please do. So. Going into just sharing about that experience, jill and I shared off script a little bit about how different, how so much goes beyond the production and so much goes into the planning of this was a nine month planning cycle of creating a twelve minute sharing of one soul and heart. And so for me, it was a lot of work. I also have multiple disabilities, but one disability impacts my speaking when I'm public speaking.

Brian Medina [00:18:47]:

And so for me to put myself out there on the stage with hundreds watching, other thousands perhaps watching at home at some point was super nerve wracking, especially when a lot of complications happen last minute. So I just want to firm for those folks out in the audience that may be fearful to do these kind of speaking engagements. I am with you. I was there, and I certainly encourage you if you would like to have another support as you're exploring this opportunity to tell your story and who you are in your fullness. I would love to be there alongside you for that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:16]:

Brian, any other thoughts on the theme of transitions in higher ed or for yourself as a human?

Brian Medina [00:19:22]:

I guess I'd love to share a little bit about how transitions, fluidity, as I just was talking about gender, fluidity transitions are happening all the time, right? We talk about transitions for our students coming in and off campus, graduating and going off about zir lives, transitions for us in the job market, transitions as I shared about gender and understanding how I present myself. But I want to encourage so much of our talk about transitions, talk about the tense, the tenseness and kind of feeling of anxiety that is present there. It's the fear, and some of it rightfully so because of our world and how much we can be harmed in that transition and showing who we are. But I also never want to forget how much we are taking upon our ancestors to get to where we are today. The transition of a more human wide transition to be in a place and space where I can be who I am and be present even on this podcast with you and alongside you is dedicated to many of those folks well before me, marcia P. Johnson, Silvio Revellitrera, who could be kind of conduits and revolutionaries in zir own right. I would love to for the next generation to see many folks alongside me, not just me, but to provide transition opportunities and emboldening us to be better and do better for our work.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:35]:

It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Christopher Lewis [00:20:41]:

Thanks so much, Jill. Glad to be back in the NASPA world. And as always, there's a ton happening in our association, and I'm really excited to be able to share some of these things with you. One of the first things that I wanted to share with you is that the 18th Manassa NASPA Conference will be hosted by Qatar University April 20 eigth to April 30, 2024. Right now, the call for programs is open, and the conference registration is open, and the early registration is open until January 31. The Manassa NASPA Conference provides student affairs practitioners with the knowledge and skills to effectively address and support college students. Higher education is witnessing a wide array of changes, especially in the era of fast technological evolution. This conference coming up.

Christopher Lewis [00:21:36]:

The theme of it is Student Affairs changes and Challenges in the Era of Emerging Technologies. It's a three day conference put on by NASPA and the Middle East, North Africa and South Asia or Manassa area. This is an opportunity to connect with colleagues both regionally and abroad, and the conference provides you with a space for discussing innovative ideas, adaptive approaches, use of technology, best practices, lessons learned, and provide tools to understand the next generation of student affairs. Definitely want to take advantage of the early registration rates that are open right now, and if your campus is in the Manassa region and would love to be considered for the 2025 Manassa NASPA Conference, the bid for that conference is currently open as well. You can find out more about this conference on the NASPA website and the bid for the 2025 hosting of the conference. Deadline for that is on February 15, 2024. You can find the Manassa NASPA Conference campus host Bid, the secure platform on the NASPA website. You can put in a bid right there to be able to be considered.

Christopher Lewis [00:22:59]:

The Fall 2023 Leadership Exchange magazine has been sent out. If you didn't see the email or haven't checked it out yet, I really encourage you to check it out. The theme of this issue is consolidation. Fosters collaboration. Advancing student success at a newly integrated institution. Inside of this issue, you're going to see a ton of great articles that are tailored to Vice Presidents for Student Affairs and other leaders in Student Affairs administration. Even if you're not at that level, I still encourage you to read the articles in this. They will challenge you, they'll push you, and they will encourage you to think about things in a different way.

Christopher Lewis [00:23:40]:

Also inside of this issue, you're going to find conversations about the college mental health cris. Also, you'll be able to learn what it's like to be a Vice President for Student Affairs through the lens of four new VPSAs and also thinking about holistic advising approaches to student success. This and more are a part of this Leadership Exchange, and I really encourage you to go and check it out for yourself. Go to the NASPA website, click on Publications, and go to the Leadership Exchange magazine.

Christopher Lewis [00:24:13]:

We're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Because the association is as strong as its members and for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit? Where do you want to give back? Each week. We're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in. That knowledge, community. I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better.

Christopher Lewis [00:25:33]:

Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:37]:

Another fantastic NASPA World segment. Producer Chris, we continue to appreciate you and all of your work to keep us informed on what's going on in and around NASPA. Brian, we have reached our lightning round. I have seven questions for you in about 90 seconds. Ready to do it?

Brian Medina [00:25:52]:

I love it. Let's do it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:53]:

All right. Number one, if you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Brian Medina [00:25:58]:

The entrance music that I already use. Crawling by Lincoln Park.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:02]:

Number two, when you were five years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Brian Medina [00:26:05]:

I wanted to be a soccer star.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:07]:

Number three, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Brian Medina [00:26:10]:

My former supervisor, Brenda Ice.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:12]:

Number four, your essential student affairs. Read.

Brian Medina [00:26:16]:

Student affairs must read. I would have to say cast by Isabel Wilkerson.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:22]:

Number five, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic.

Brian Medina [00:26:25]:

I have to admit that I haven't been watching many full shows lately, but I am a sucker for any historical docuseries, so please send your recommendations.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:34]:

Number six, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Brian Medina [00:26:39]:

While I clearly love the SA Voices podcast, I also want to give a shout out to a friend of mine, Tracy Guy Decker, who recently developed a podcast called Deep Thoughts about Stupid Stuff but replaced the word stuff with something we're not allowed to say on the air.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:54]:

And finally, number seven, any shoutouts you'd like to give, personal or professional?

Brian Medina [00:26:58]:

Always love to give shout outs to my peers and friends in the gender, sexuality, casey and other Casey's, and certainly. To my partner for continuing to hold space for me as I have shared my fullness on this podcast and beyond.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:10]:

Ryan, I'm sure there are many listeners who would love to chat with you after the show airs. How can they find you?

Brian Medina [00:27:15]:

I'm less on social media. I would love to hear. If you'd like to send a long letter, send it snail mail or you can send an email at bamadina at. Umd.edu.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:28]:

Ryan, it's been such a pleasure to talk with you. I always love getting to know other leaders in NASPA. There's so many of us, we don't always get to connect. So I want to say thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today.

Brian Medina [00:27:38]:

Thank you so much, Jill. It's been a pleasure.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:41]:

This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field, brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at savoices@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L. Craighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:10]:

And please, like, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, spotify or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible role in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill L. Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:29]:

Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to Duke Kunshan University and the University of Michigan, Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this episode of "Student Affairs Voices from the Field," Dr. Jill Creighton discusses transitions in Student Affairs with her guest, Dr. Chrissy Roth Francis, who made the leap from student affairs to a career in the tech industry. The episode highlights the challenges and opportunities faced by student affairs professionals considering a pivot into adjacent roles. Dr. Creighton emphasizes the importance of this discussion, acknowledging the diverse experiences within the field.

Dr. Chrissy Roth Francis shares her journey through higher education, starting as an involved undergraduate student, pursuing a master's degree at New York University, and eventually landing a dream job at the University of Southern California, where she worked with international students. She later became the Director of New Student Services at UC Berkeley, overseeing orientation for a growing number of students. However, the transition to a "welcome week" structure became a significant challenge and contributed to her decision to pivot out of higher education.

The conversation delves into why Dr. Roth Francis chose to pivot into the corporate world, specifically in talent development at LinkedIn. She highlights the transferable skills gained in higher education, such as problem-solving, strategic planning, and public speaking, which have proven valuable in her new role. Dr. Creighton discusses the various options available to student affairs professionals, including staying in the field, changing the field from within, or pursuing opportunities outside higher education.

Dr. Roth Francis emphasizes the need for clear boundaries and work-life balance in her new career, a departure from the long hours and weekend commitments common in student affairs. She discusses the practicality of her decision, citing the desire for a better lifestyle and higher income as motivating factors. Both hosts express appreciation for student affairs professionals and the essential work they do in supporting students.

The episode concludes with a discussion of career trajectories, with Dr. Roth Francis sharing her experience of initially taking a step down in her career to gain experience in the corporate world. She highlights the importance of recalibrating and expanding one's skill set while also acknowledging the financial benefits of her decision.

Dr. Creighton emphasizes the need for higher education to adapt and connect with industry to prepare students with the skills necessary for success. She encourages SA professionals to explore all available options, connect with others who have made similar transitions, and conduct thorough research before making career decisions.

In summary, this episode provides valuable insights for student affairs professionals considering career transitions, whether within or outside higher education, and highlights the importance of self-care and financial well-being in making such decisions.

Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]:

Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season nine on transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your essay, Voices from the Field. Host today's episode of Essay Voices from the Field is one for all of you who are considering a pivot into an industry that takes your well earned and well honed student affairs skills into adjacent roles. 

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:37]:

So I'm pleased to introduce you today to Dr.Chrissy Roth Francis, who is a loud and proud former student affairs professional. In 2018, with a master's, a doctorate and eleven years of higher ed experience, she packed up her diplomas, conference name tags and pictures of orientation teams. She shed some tears and then ventured into the tech industry with her eyes and ears wide open. Chrissy is now the Director of Talent Development at LinkedIn, where she leads a team that onboards and develops the company's 3500 people managers. Chrissy has been an outspoken voice on LinkedIn for higher ed expats and for those still working on college campuses, but considering a pivot elsewhere. I want to acknowledge the importance of today's episode in Centering, the total experience of being a student affairs professional. For all of us who are thriving on our campuses, this is an episode that we're hoping you can hear where others are positioned for transition. And for those of you who are figuring out that maybe you are looking for other opportunities, maybe this one can be practical for you.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:33]:

But to all of you, we appreciate you and all of the work you're doing to support our students on all campuses worldwide. Chrissy, we're so glad to have you on SA voices today.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:01:43]:

So happy to be here.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:44]:

We know each other through a mutual friend, dDr. Kelly Alvarado Young. So I'm going to give her a shout out right now. Kelly and I work together at WSU. So Kelly, if you're listening, hello.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:01:54]:

Hey, Kelly, Chrissy, we really love to.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:56]:

Start with getting to know our guests through your very excellent come up story. We'd love to hear your journey through higher ed and also the journey to your position now.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:02:06]:

So happy to share it. Jill thank you for having me. My journey starts like almost everybody's journey in Student affairs. I was an undergrad. I was a super involved student. I love doing all the things at my college. And at some point I had that moment where somebody pulled me over and said, I think you should consider this as a professional. Go get a master's degree.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:02:26]:

And I didn't know anything and I said, okay, let's go for it. Right? Like that story is very true for so many of us. Ended up getting a master's degree from New York University. Fantastic way to continue my involvement in a college and a university setting. Learned so much working all across that area. And then I ended up getting an incredible job at the University of Southern California. I really think this was the dream job that any entry level professional like me could only hope for. It was in the orientation space, but specifically it was working for international students.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:03:04]:

So I had the honor of getting to onboard every new student to that university, but having a focus on students coming from all over the world and learning so much from them as they shared with me their cultures. I stayed several years at USC, and then I was ready for the big job. Ended up getting the big job at UC Berkeley, where I was the director of New Student Services. So still in the orientation space, which I really loved, this was the space that I focused on as an undergrad. Stuck with it all throughout my time in higher education. So when I was at UC Berkeley, I oversaw orientation for what started out as about 6000 students when I got there in 2013, 6000 students annually. By the time I left in 2018, we were onboarding about 10,000 students annually.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:00]:

That's quite a scale up.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:04:02]:

Yeah, it was a big transition over several years. But the biggest transition of that time was that when I got there, we had a summer orientation. So you all know the glory. Small groups cranking out session after session all throughout the summer. And at one point our higher up administration decided, let's go ahead and change it to a welcome week. Typically, welcome week orientations are only seen on very small campuses, medium campuses at the biggest. Definitely not common among large public universities. That was, I believe, to this day, one of the biggest challenges I will ever see in my career was shepherding our entire campus through a two year transition to get us to be able to successfully onboard 10,000 students in a welcome week structure.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:04:56]:

It was a great endeavor. I had so much fun learning how to do it. And I'm not going to lie, it took everything out of me. And it is not at all a coincidence that I left soon after doing that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:07]:

So I think you're talking about what a lot of us are facing in higher education, which is extraordinary shifts in our work, high expectations from all of those around us, and likely working with some fairly limited resources. And this is all pre pandemic.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:05:24]:

Yes.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:25]:

So thinking about that and your journey, can you talk a little bit about what led you to pursuing the Pivot that you did? So we hear about higher education professionals going all sorts of places, customer success, sales, talent and development. The list is actually fairly long because our skills end up being quite transferable if we package them well. So how did you decide on L and D?

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:05:48]:

Yes, so you're absolutely right. When I was in higher education, I saw all those constraints all the constraints that probably all of us feel and see in the field and throughout my time there. Because of those constraints, I very much attribute my skills and my experiences to those constraints. So because of those constraints, I built up this massive portfolio of skills problem solving, navigating, tough times, working with stakeholders, public speaking. What about large scale programming with very little money, training leaders, switching directions because of politics or because of a strategic change in the university? All those things, right? Because of constraints and because of the skills and experiences that I accumulate, I believe it helped me be quite successful pivoting into the corporate world. So I now work, as you know, at LinkedIn in learning and development, talent development, where I get to leverage many of those skills that I use on a daily basis in higher education. So when I think about onboarding new students, we onboard new employees to LinkedIn every single week. When I think about training those student leaders on a weekly or a monthly basis at UC Berkeley and University of Southern California, I get to train people at LinkedIn also on a weekly basis.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:07:10]:

When I think about problem solving, event planning, strategic planning, all the things that we used to do, I get to do that at LinkedIn all the time. So what I learned was that the skills were very much transferable. If anything, I very truly, strongly believe that we develop more skills in higher ed than probably any other industry.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:33]:

That's a bold statement.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:07:34]:

Oh, I mean it. I really do mean it, because given those constraints, we wear so many hats, and we have learned to be so successful and so resourceful with very few resources. And in other industries where you have the resources, you don't need to be that scrappy. You don't need to be so resourceful. You don't need to stretch yourself in all the different directions. So I do mean it, Joel, and I know it is a bold statement.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:59]:

I really appreciate kind of hearing the confidence boost of the transferability of skills. I'm wondering if we can back up a little bit and talk about you said that it had taken everything out of you, and I think a lot of us can relate to how that feeling is. Sitting with many parts of the profession right now. There are some of us that are choosing to persist forward and power through that exhaustion. There are some of us who are looking to change the profession from within to make that not a thing as part of the culture of student affairs and higher education. And there are some of us who are going maybe there is greener grass in other places. I'm wondering if you can tell us about your decision to go for that third option rather than one of the first two.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:08:39]:

Those are a great way to map out the three options. I have definitely been very public about my opting out for greener grass. And I think that all those options are fitting and perfect for whichever one that you want to choose. For me, it was a matter of I was recognizing that I wasn't living the lifestyle that I wanted to live. Meaning I had two little kids that I birthed when I was at UC Berkeley and I was struggling to find time with them between weekend trainings or night trainings, weekend retreats, or the three weeks straight where I nearly lived in the office because it was time for a welcome week. I also didn't make enough money, frankly, to really pay for my family and our growing needs. So for me, it was very practical. We were not able to do the things that we wanted to do.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:09:31]:

I had been paycheck to paycheck my entire career, and now that I'm no longer paycheck to paycheck, I feel much more comfortable saying I was paycheck to paycheck. But back then, I don't think I was ever really free to verbalize how much of a struggle it was for me and my family to sustain on a higher education income. I also think about the people who are like, let's stay in, let's rise to the top, let's make it better, let's really fight to make higher education what it can be. And there are incredible people in higher education who I worked with closely, I adore, and they are in very high up positions, and I know that they are going to make the best that they can possibly do with the situation at hand. And by the way, I never even worked in higher education since COVID so I know it's only gotten more difficult for those people to be able to turn it around. For me, aside from the practicality of wanting a better lifestyle, I really left higher education because I didn't see a path forward for me, I loved working in orientation and I also knew that I wanted to keep climbing or keep moving around. And as I looked moving around, different types of jobs, not physically moving around, which also is very common in higher education. So when I thought about what could be next for me, I scanned my university, I scanned all other universities in the Bay Area, and I couldn't see or envision any jobs out there that would have been a pay increase, a level up, and that I would have appreciated or that I would have enjoyed.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:11:08]:

So I looked at our Dean of Students, our VPSA, other high ups who I think most up and coming student affairs professionals aspire to become. And the more I worked with them and the closer I watched what their job was, the more I wanted to run away from that job. I just didn't want the crisis, I didn't want the budget woes, I didn't want a lot of the yuck that comes along with those jobs. And it takes a really special person to do those jobs and it simply wasn't for me. And that was how I really decided it was time to go find that greener grass outside of higher education.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:44]:

Sometimes I call my portfolio trauma and drama.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:11:47]:

It's a great description.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:48]:

I wish it were not true. But part of the joy of the work is getting to hold space for students who really need an ear for their development. And then part of it too is caring for my well being and those things sometimes can't align, and then the question is what gives? And I think that's very true for a lot of people sitting in the CSAO or the Dean of Students seat. For me especially, I know that working with families of students who have passed away is the number one thing that weighs really heavy on my mind, on my heart, and on my mental health. And that is something they don't teach us how to do in graduate school. We figure it out along the way. And that is a special skill set and honestly, one that I wish I didn't have to have had developed over time because of what comes with it.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:12:33]:

Jill, it's the perfect description of why you and people in like positions are so incredible and why I needed to bow out. I knew I didn't want to do it. I knew it wasn't right for me, and I don't even know if I would have been good at it because I didn't even want to give it a try.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:50]:

So that transition space for you. I've heard you talk about this on a different podcast about being okay with a squiggly line for a career trajectory. Because in higher ed we often measure success by did you up level. And I don't know that that's a great measure of success because I also think in student affairs especially, we don't necessarily do a good job of succession planning from a skills up level. We teach people how to do their jobs and then we say, you're really good at your job. That means you must be ready for the next thing. We didn't necessarily develop the talent from a truly skills basis, whether it be management skills, leadership skills, scaling skills, all of those things. And so you've talked about it's okay to move, quote unquote, down a level or left, right, sideways, diagonally.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:38]:

Tell us about that.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:13:39]:

Absolutely. When I was in higher ed, as evidenced by my previous answer, I felt like I had to move up, had to out of pride, had to out of continually expanding my skill set and my opportunities, and also had to simply to garnish a higher salary. And what I learned was that there are other ways to be successful. And jumping outside of higher education, I knew that I was going to have to take at least a step down because I didn't have corporate industry experience. I didn't have the direct learning and development experience that HR professionals of six years had, even though I was much older and experienced than them. So I knew that I had to take a step down. I was a director and assistant dean at UC Berkeley when I left, and I knew that I wasn't going to become a director right away or I wasn't even going to be able to manage a team of individuals in the corporate world. So what stepping down allowed me to do was look at a variety of positions, take a lot of pressure off of me, and allow me to learn a brand new industry, expand my skill set, and really get comfortable in another space and also prove myself.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:14:56]:

So I feel quite confident that because of the step down I took, I was able to launch myself a lot stronger and faster than other folks. So, yes, I needed the time to step down and recalibrate, but it very much paid off in the end. I will also say that my step down from higher education into the corporate world was leaps and bounds higher of a salary than anything I ever would have been making in higher education. So that, of course, made my step down a lot more palatable.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:29]:

Thinking about all of the things that you did to transition, I know you've written a blog post I referenced, so I'll let folks know. Please check out Chrissy's blog on LinkedIn. It's called how higher ed pros can find greener grass by Dr. Chrissy Roth Francis. If you just Google for that, you'll be able to pull that blog up easily. Chrissy gives some really practical advice for those of you who are pivoting and if you want to go back and listen I think it was almost three or four seasons ago now. We did a crossover episode with the podcast pivoting out of with Dr. Jamie Hoffman, dr.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:58]:

Tom Stuttert. They're both pivoters who took their doctoral degrees and entered the corporate worlds very, very successfully. So if this is you, please check those things out. Chrissy, I'm wondering if you can give us any advice for those that are persisting through the profession and know it's the right home for them. Things that you wish higher ed was doing now that you know what the corporate world is also doing.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:16:21]:

There's just so many things, and I think for me, it starts out with folks in higher ed like me went to college, went to grad school, got all their jobs, and never left a college campus. So they don't have any clue what else is out there unless they have close friends or a spouse possibly, that work in the corporate world. So I've been quite surprised, happily surprised, by what I've seen outside of higher education. Things like people's well being are actually taken care of. Like, I shut down my laptop at 05:00 every day, and I don't worry about an on call or I don't have to work a weekend retreat. So for me, the work boundaries are much more firm and I don't have to worry about my student affairs life bleeding into my personal life. So that's a big deal is having people really be able to honor their boundaries and take care of themselves in a much more holistic way. You've heard me talk about salary quite a few times and when I was in higher education, I wasn't comfortable thinking that I deserved or that I needed a higher salary.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:17:34]:

That to me was anti higher ed. Higher ed where we believe that we are sacrificing everything, including our family's lifestyles and our salaries to do the job. I would love to see people throughout all levels of higher education or education in general get paid much better commensurate with the work that they are actually doing, because the work is valuable and necessary and requires such a tremendous skill set and education that people should be paid accordingly. And I want to see that happen, which really means higher education needs to be restructured financially. And that's many more podcasts for you, Jill.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:13]:

I think we just had an interesting conversation with Eric Stoller on kind of an adjacent topic and it was all about the transition and transformation of the digital space for higher education. And those two things for higher education to keep up with industry is going to be critical, especially because of the gradual but continual loss of faith in the value of higher education as a market for what people need to pursue after high school. We're seeing that decline happen in a lot of places, and for me, I believe that is because we've done a poor job of really telling the story of what an education can do or working in higher education can do. I'm still a firm believer. Higher education has a huge ROI, and that is because of the way it teaches you how to think about problems and solve problems with elasticity that you can't see if you go straight for other types of training. So that's the value for me, but we don't sell it well and we also aren't really connecting with industry well on what are the skills that students need to come out with with their degree in order to make it happen for them.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:19:10]:

I think you hit it on the head right at the end there. It's that higher education is not connecting it with the industry. So we know what various industries need and are looking for, and higher education sometimes is a bit old school and traditional compared to what tech or other industries want. And when I think about a well rounded liberal arts education as a human being, I think that is absolutely the right way to go. I want someone who knows how to problem solve, who understands the history and who understands culture and different types of people. And when it comes to doing a job, some companies just want someone who knows how to code for example. And that's a gap, right? And I don't think either one is more right, but it is a gap that somebody needs to go ahead and be able to fill or at least sell how they're filling it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:01]:

And I'll give it a shout out to our career services colleagues because I know that they are doing it and creating that bridge. Yes, for sure.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:20:07]:

Absolutely.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:08]:

Chrissy, any other thoughts for our SA pros who are both persisting through the profession or those who are really thinking that maybe it's time for a shift?

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:20:17]:

When I started thinking about leaving higher education, I believe I knew about five people who had successfully left higher education because nobody talked about it back then. So I left in 2018, and back then I wasn't able to have conversations with people and let them know, this is what I want to do, help me build the skills or help me build a network to get there. Now, I hope that higher education is at a place where it's more open and even this podcast is evidence of that, that we can talk openly about people's needs and desires or even just thoughts about leaving higher education. So what I want people to know is there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people who currently work in the corporate world from higher education. And you might not know us all because you're in your higher education bubble, but we are out there and we are thriving, and we are showing folks across various sectors that higher ed expats can do really well, and if anything, that we are incredible and we have an incredible skill set. So reach out to folks, get to know folks, learn what is out there. I didn't know any types of jobs. I didn't know different companies.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:21:32]:

I didn't know anything when I was trying to get out there. And I wish back then that I had the network of higher ed expats that I do have now. So do your research. Take it as a second job for a few months and get to know people. Ask them what they do. Ask them about their company. Start learning about what you might want to do or what's important for you as you are looking to pivot out of higher education. And in those conversations, you might learn that, yes, indeed, it is time for you to jump out and you're going to learn some strategies on how to get out.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:22:07]:

Or you might learn that you really love working in higher education and you do not want to leave. I've talked to people who were interested in Pivoting, and by the end of my conversation, I'm like, they are never going to leave, and they shouldn't leave because they got it going and they've figured it out. You need to make the best decision for you. And I just hope that you are able to make that decision based on all the data that you can accumulate.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:31]:

And whether you are persisting in the profession or looking elsewhere. I want to express my gratitude to you personally for everything that you're doing to make student affairs and higher education a place that's really being the catalyst of change on our campuses and the safest places for the students. So thank you to all the out there.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:22:50]:

Great job, everybody.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:51]:

Keep it up. It's time to take a quick break.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:53]:

And toss it over to producer Chris.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:55]:

To learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Christopher Lewis [00:22:57]:

Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back again in the NASPA world and as always, lots of things happening in this association really want to focus a little bit on some of the focus areas of NASPA. And many of you have been members of NASPA for a long time. You may think you know all that NASPA does, but I'll bet you that there are some things you might not know and some focus areas that you might not always be thinking about. Today, I would highly encourage you to go onto the NASPA website and there is a link at the top of the webput site, at the top of the website that says Focus Areas. If you go there, you're going to see that there are eight different areas that are focused on and NASPA is working to serve as a leading role in the innovations that are shaping the future of student affairs in many different areas. The focus areas that you're going to see on the website include career and workforce development, civic engagement, justice, equity, inclusion and diversity, student financial, wellness, health, safety and well being, policy and advocacy, student success, and supporting the profession. If you go under that tab on the website and you click on any of those different focus areas, you're going to learn more about each of the different areas.

Christopher Lewis [00:24:23]:

Each of those will be broken down and will allow for you to see different types of resources, different types of events, different types of blogs and awards that are available for you as a professional. So, for example, you click on Career and Workforce Development, you're going to see what that focus area is all about. You'll see some books that tie into that. You're going to see events that are specific to that specific focus area, some articles in the blog that are tied directly to that specific focus area, as well as some awards and initiatives that the association has that to encourage you to think about these focus areas in a different way. Again, not all of us are working in all of these different areas. Not all of us are thinking about these different areas. But through this resource on the NASPA website, you're going to be able to find out a lot more about what NASPA is doing, but also about resources that are available to you so that you can become more adept at these areas, as well as a better support for students in these areas. The other thing today that I'm going to talk about is a little bit of a breakdown of how NASPA is structured.

Christopher Lewis [00:25:39]:

All of you live in different areas of the world, and each of those areas is broken down into different regions and areas. And if you don't know what region you're in or what area that you are in based on where you live and what you do, I highly encourage you to go again to the NASPA website, click on Communities and go to Regions and Areas. And if you go to that, you're going to see that NASPA is broken down into regions within the United States that range everywhere from region one to region six. And you're going to find that of those regions, there are seven different areas because region four is broken down into east and west. Beyond that, there are two international areas that are broken down. The first is called the Lac or Latin America and Caribbean. And the other is Menasa, which is Middle East, North Africa and South Asia. If you want to find out more about what's happening in your region or what states are in your region, if there's specific things that are happening in the states that you live in, I encourage you to go and check out the regions or your area and learn more.

Christopher Lewis [00:26:57]:

Because there are directors of those regions, there are other leaders in those regions and areas that can help you, to connect you, to get you involved in different ways based on what's happening. And it's a great way to connect with people in your area that you can work with, on common goals, common vision, try to identify best practices, and more. Every week we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Because the association is as strong as its members and for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit, where do you want to give back? Each week. We're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in. That knowledge community.

Christopher Lewis [00:28:18]:

I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within. The association, because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:48]:

Chris, once again, you're always such a wonderful voice for our NASPA World segment. Thank you for teaching us what's going on in and around NASPA. Chrissy, we have reached our lightning round on the show, which is about seven questions in 90 seconds. You ready to go?

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:29:03]:

It's timed. You didn't warn me it was timed. Okay, here we go.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:09]:

We don't put like a 60 minutes ticker on the back end or anything.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:29:12]:

I'm going to accept the challenge here.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:14]:

All right. Number one, if you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:29:18]:

Thunder.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:19]:

Number two, when you were five years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:29:23]:

A mail Judy. And by that I mean our mail person. Her name was Judy, and I wanted to be her.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:29]:

Number three, your most influential professional mentor.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:29:32]:

I'm not going to say one. I'm going to say there are a collection of people that I look to for different reasons and in different capacities who all have inspired me in very different ways.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:43]:

Number four, your essential higher education. Read.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:29:46]:

You know what? I was always a very big fan of Schlossberg. We're talking about transition, and I worked in orientation, so for me it was all about schlossberg.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:54]:

Number five, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:29:57]:

I just finished watching. Is it still the pandemic? Does that count?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:02]:

I think so now.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:30:04]:

Okay. I just finished watching Suits. I have never binged such a long show because it is multiple seasons, multiple years. Great to actually learn what that show was all about. I loved it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:15]:

Number six, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:30:19]:

I am a big fan of Reed Hoffman's masters of Scale. Reed Hoffman is the founder of LinkedIn, and he features different companies who have really figured out how to get big very quickly. So it's been a great education for me to learn more about the corporate world.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:35]:

And finally, number seven, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:30:39]:

Shout out to everybody who is doing all the great work in higher education. Shout out to all those folks who have helped me along the way. Get out. And like you talked about Dr. Tom Stutter, so didn't mention earlier, he was actually my very first boss outside after I graduated with my master's. So it's quite fun that we have both ended up on this side. I'm going to give another shout out. I'm just going to go through all my people.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:31:04]:

Andreen Kaibi, who was my very first boss, who actually encouraged me to go into higher education. And then lastly, I will say Dr. David Serat, who was a critical person for me in higher education as I considered leaving higher education.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:19]:

It's been such a pleasure to have this conversation with you today, Chrissy. I'm sure that there are many others that would like to connect with you. How can folks find you after the show airs?

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:31:28]:

Y'all can find me on LinkedIn. You can find me at Dr. Chrissy Rothfrancis. I post a good amount on LinkedIn. A lot of it is targeted toward folks in higher education considering to get out of education. So find me on LinkedIn.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:41]:

Thank you so much, Chrissy, for sharing your voice with us today.

Chrissy Roth Francis [00:31:44]:

It's been my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:47]:

This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at savoices@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L. Craighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:16]:

And please like rate and review us on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill L. Creighton SAP Mi. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by Lu Yongru.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:37]:

Special thanks to Duke Kunchan University and the University of Michigan, Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this episode of "Student Affairs Voices From the Field," Dr. Jill Creighton welcomes Dr. Eric Stoller, the VP of Marketing and Digital Content at territorium, for a conversation about the evolving landscape of higher education and the role of technology in student affairs. They discuss various trends in higher education technology and how it impacts both academic and student affairs divisions.

Dr. Stoller traces his journey from his early experiences as a marketing specialist at the University of Illinois, Chicago, to becoming a respected thought leader in the higher education technology space. He emphasizes how technology has become an integral part of the entire higher education experience, noting the importance of CRM tools, mobile apps, and the shift toward hybrid and remote learning during the pandemic.

The conversation delves into the changing value of higher education credentials and the importance of measuring and verifying outcomes related to critical thinking, skills development, and employability. Dr. Stoller discusses the growing focus on micro-credentials, badges, and the idea of a learner's "digital wallet" to showcase skills and experiences.

They also touch upon the need for interoperability in higher education technology and how data and analytics will play a more significant role in student affairs, helping institutions understand student needs and provide better support.

The episode concludes with a discussion of the evolving role of student affairs in helping students navigate diverse pathways to success, emphasizing the need for personalized support and pathways for learners, regardless of whether they complete a degree.

This episode sheds light on the transformative impact of technology on higher education and how student affairs professionals can adapt to these changes to better serve students in an evolving landscape.

Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!

Transcript

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]:

Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season nine on transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your essay, Voices from the Field host today on SA Voices, I'm pleased to bring you a conversation with Eric Stoller. Eric is the VP of Digital at territorium with over 20 years experience in higher education and education technology. As a Strategist writer and thought leader, he founded and led a global higher education consultancy from 2010 to 2019 and created the Student Affairs and Technology blog for Inside Higher Ed.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:46]:

Previous Ed Tech roles include leadership positions at list. Ed tech element 451 and Gecko engage. Earlier in his career, he was an academic advisor at Oregon State University and a marketing specialist at the University of Illinois, Chicago. Eric. Earned an associate's degree, a BA in Communications and an EDM. In College student Services Administration. Eric, welcome to SA Voices.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:01:07]:

Thanks so much for having me, Jill. Great to be here.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:09]:

It's really great to see you. For our listeners, Eric and I met, I'm going to say 2005 maybe.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:01:16]:

I think dinosaurs were just still roaming the earth. Yeah, it would have been 2004. Five Oregon State University in Corvallis, Oregon.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:25]:

I think we were just escaping the trends of dial up internet and smartphones weren't smart yet in that time. So Eric and I actually worked together in the Office of Student Conduct when we were graduate students. So it's really lovely to see old friends and see careers blossom. And I'm really looking forward to talking about your transition today because I think you have a really unique one for someone who received their master's in Higher Ed. So would love to start with if you could tell us about your current position. And we always like to begin with a good come up story. How did you get to your current seat?

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:01:57]:

A good come up story, I love that. Well, so my current role is Vice President of Marketing and Digital Content at territorium, which is a global ed tech company that is all about bridging education to employability. And we'll probably get into that later on in the show. And it gets highly technical and I can't wait to dive into that. In terms of how I got into this seat, it is a long, winding story that started on a gravel road in Iowa, and I'm not going to bore your listeners with the full, you know, I went to community college, went to university. I thought I was kind of done with higher education. And then I actually started working at the University of Illinois at Chicago way back in the day in marketing and just loved the work. I was located within Student Services, and that's when I sort of first learned about what student affairs was even all about.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:02:42]:

And was, as I am today, still very much into technology back then. And even I remember calling up Kevin Krueger, who's now the executive director for NASPA or the president of NASA. I'm not sure the exact titles nowadays, but Kevin and I had a conversation when I was very new to the field, and I said to him, why is the information Technology knowledge community, as it was known then, why is it gone? Because they had just gotten rid of it. And his first thought or question know, who are you? And I said, yeah, I'm just new professional, kind of bothering this leader of this association, or at the time, I think he was the associate director. Anyway, I went out to Oregon State, as you referenced, and I got my master's degree in higher education. Worked in a variety of different areas from enrollment management, financial aid, registrars, kind of a stint at Student conduct, was an academic advisor. And then during that time when I was an academic advisor, I started writing for Inside Higher Ed. I started the Student Affairs and Technology blog and just loved that experience as a writer for Inside Higher Ed.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:03:41]:

And it was also at that time when I started getting invitations to go out and do some freelance work and consult for institutions and speak at events. So I stopped working full time for Oregon State and I became a consultant for nine years in the US, the UK and beyond, various global events and working with institutions all over the place. And the focus was all around digital engagement. This was when sort of social media was kind of coming into its own still and really focusing on how student affairs divisions could just transform what they were doing with all things digital. Because the origin story of student affairs is one that it was all about face to face, one on one experiences with students. And technology was seen because my Grad program, it was what, 2004, when I started, and technology was seen as this kind of gets in the way of that student experience. You fast forward to today, almost 20 years later, and the idea that technology would be separate from the student experience is something that people would never think about. It's really connected deeply.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:04:40]:

And so I had this nine year experience as a freelancer, and then I started working for a higher ed chatbot company that was based in the UK and Scotland and did that for a little while, went back to Freelancing, and then I worked for a higher ed CRM company. You're getting kind of a theme here in terms of my Ed tech experience, right? Sort of chat bot to CRM. And then we moved to the Netherlands in 2022 from the US. And so I was doing Freelancing again, and a connection of my wife, professional connection, started talking to me about this potential marketing role at territorium, and they were launching their kind of US presence. territorium as a company has its origins in Monterrey, Mexico, and we're all over Latin America in terms of providing testing and a learning experience platform as well as our comprehensive learner record. But we hadn't really had as much of a presence in the US. And so we launched this US team back in December of last year that's for listeners on the call. I can't even do the math now.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:05:42]:

Right? 2022. And so been with territorium since then and leading on all things marketing and digital combination of leading, strategy, producing, execution, go to market, a lot of things that are not part of our Master's degree program that Jill and I went through, but connected to both my undergraduate experience as a PR and marketing major. And then of course, my deep connections and network into higher education have kind of got me to this place.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:10]:

So I'm going to just do a quick backup to a terms definition. You mentioned CRM, which might not be a term that's familiar to those in Higher Ed. Can you define that for us?

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:06:18]:

Of course. So this is where things really get interesting because as you know, every institution in the US kind of does things differently. If they're a college, they're a university, they're a community college. The structures, the systems, some institutions have divisions of student affairs, some have smaller sort of scale depending on their organization. But the one thing they all have in common is they all recruit students, they have admissions and they have recruitment. And whether they use a higher ed specific CRM, which is back in the day, it would have been a Customer Relationship Management tool, which is effectively how you keep track of who you're trying to recruit and communicate with them and engage them on a level from maybe they're a junior in high school or if they're an adult. Learner how you're connecting with those folks through a variety of communication vehicles like email, SMS or maybe a chat bot. How it's all interconnected.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:07:10]:

So there's the Gargantuan CRMs out there like Salesforce or I happen to be working for Element 451, which is a much smaller shop, but they have quite a few clients as well. That's the CRM. I think the interesting thing about being in Higher Ed is I always say that you live in an acronym soup because you've got all the associations for higher education, all the different tools and platforms. You've got the SIS, the Student Information System. I mentioned the Comprehensive Learner Record, which is shortened down to Clr, which is a record of skills and experiences and credentials for learners. That goes far beyond the transcript because it goes inside the classroom and outside the classroom. So that's the clr. And so, yeah, if we need to, we can have a glossary of Terms attached to this podcast.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:07:53]:

In terms of all the acronyms that I might mention, I think for Higher Ed pros, most of these things you're already familiar with, you just didn't know. That's what it was called in corporate land, but things you're quite familiar with. I think the one that we've been using lately is Slate in terms of our CRM for prospective students. It's quite a popular rising one right now. So you do know these things. You just maybe got a new term to associate with it.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:08:15]:

I think if you work in enrollment management, if you're in the admissions side, you're in these tools on a daily basis. I think it's one of those things if you're in student conduct or academic advising or every sort of functional area has its set of digital tools that it uses on a day to day basis. But when I was at Oregon State as an academic advisor, I was in banner every single day. And so that was the tool of choice. That's from Elusion. In terms of providers, I'll try not to too much name dropping, but I think that in terms of the Edtech universe, there's so many different providers because so many different functional areas require just different tools to help with the work that they're doing.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:53]:

One of the reasons I was really looking forward to our conversation is because you can talk about transitions in the digital space. A lot of the conversations we've had this seasons are personal transitions in career, which you've certainly had. But I think one of the things you've always had your finger on the pulse of in higher Ed is how digital kind of arenas, the digital vertical for higher education has really changed and reshaped the way that we do the work in our campus based positions. So I'm wondering if you can talk to us a little bit about that process and what you've seen in terms of trends and bed tech field is really new 2030 years in terms of its boom. So any trends that you're seeing in terms of how educators are using these tools really well, yeah.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:09:34]:

I mean, I think it's always good, like you said, to kind of look back where things were. When I was writing for Inside Higher Ed, I remember going to EDUCAUSE a couple of different times. The annual Educause Conference, which is kind of a giant ed tech convention. And most of the providers back then, those events, they were very much focused on the academic experience side of things. There weren't a lot of providers that were doing things that would even slightly sort of go into the student affairs areas. And now you fast forward to today and Edtech providers are in kind of every single space within institutions. As we've already referenced, the CRM tools have become extremely important because with the approaching enrollment cliff for that traditionally aged population, which is kind of a loaded phrase anyway in terms of what is traditional, but that sort of 18 to 22 year old, that population of university, that's a decline. There's just not as many young people that will be going into higher education.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:10:33]:

And so the CRM becomes a tool that is even more important as you communicate, as you hone your message, as you try to showcase the value of your institution, of the degrees that students will receive and earn and other systems as well. I mean, it used to be the digital experience was much more based on the staff or administrators who were at their desk with a big screen and students would come to their office and they would sort of navigate a system on behalf of the student. And then mobile apps kind of really entered in in a meaningful way. And no longer are students sort of tethered to an individual and their desk and their office, but they can look things up on their phone and they can access a variety of services. They can ask questions to 24/7 chat bots. They can look at their course schedule. They can look at various activities and events on campus. Now, of course, when you said this, you referenced the question.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:11:29]:

You kind of framed it as on campus. I think what the pandemic did was it showcased the need to serve and support students who weren't necessarily going to be on campus, or at least accelerated. Maybe more of a hybridized environment where students were on campus for a portion of the time, but they were also on their computers at home because it used to be that all your lectures were in a big auditorium. And then the idea of the sort of the flip classroom came into play. Professors were recording their lectures and students could listen to a lecture at home and so that the discussion would actually happen when you went to the classroom. And then with the Pandemic, it sort of said, okay, everything's going to be remote for certain people. And it was interesting because you start thinking about how did student affairs serve learners, who historically student affairs would have been saying, okay, in res life, there's no such thing as remote. Students are actually physically located on campus.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:12:27]:

But then say, what about the other side of our institution that was serving adult learners or online only learners or people that were coming in for micro credentials, they were never going to set foot on campus. They maybe came once a year, if that. And so technology has really embedded itself throughout the entire higher education experience because the higher education experience has changed. It's such a blended, multimodal thing where students are learning through their phones, they are communicating like we are right now through zoom or other media like this because you don't have to be bound to a certain geography. You could be in Iowa and studying an institution in Oregon, or you could be in Berlin and studying at an institution in South Carolina. So the variety pack now and I think that's where I think back to our higher education master's program. And the fundamentals that we were taught were still very much constrained to a sort of model that was still constrained in some ways. It's like know, we were on a basketball court, for example, and we knew where the boundary lines were for everything, and we knew, like, okay, here's the two baskets, and we know how things work.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:13:39]:

But then all of a, you know, I live in Europe now imagine if that basketball court was transported to a football pitch, which is enormous in size and different boundaries and different scope and scale. And I think that's where higher education finds itself. It's having to, as a sort of nebulous thing, now recruit students that in the past might not have been recruited because, like I said, that enrollment decline for a certain demographic, and so all these technologies are really coming into their own. For instance, the territorium, one of the things that we've been really talking about a lot is this idea that why do people go to college? Why do people pay the bill? Why do the people get into debt? Most of us were not financially wealthy enough to just pay for school right away. You have to get a loan. You pay your student loan off over the course of a lifetime or however long it takes. And what's the value of higher education? Right? Yes. It's the experience.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:14:30]:

It's about giving back to your community. It's about access. But by and large, most people go to university because they want to improve their overall employability or their chances for a career that will perhaps lead to financial stability because that's why they're doing it. And higher ed, I think, for the longest time, hasn't really talked about that. We shy away from that. We shy away from the fact that people are going to get their BA in English, for instance, and they're going to get in $50,000 worth of debt. But they're doing it because they love writing, they love the work, they love the art. But at the same time, is there a connection to employment at the end of that journey, or are universities just leaving students in debt? And so I think that's where you may have heard people talk a lot about the skills based economy.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:15:16]:

And I went to community college for my first two years. I got my Associate of Arts. My brother, he went to the same community college. He got a two year technical degree. That's what he has, a technical degree. And he has done really well for himself career wise. And I think one of the things, when people hear the word skills based economy, they think, well, that's more technical or community college workforce based. But universities are really getting into that space now when it comes to micro credentials and badging and trying to sort out the sense of, okay, it's not just about a pretty campus.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:15:48]:

It's not just about a winning football team. It is about what's the direct correlation to you get this degree or you get this credential and it's going to have a direct impact on your success? Because right now I think there's something like 39 million Americans have some college but no degree, and yet that accompanies that with a ton of debt, right? So there's a lot of issues there. And so how do you take folks who have maybe some college but no degree and let them showcase the sort of skills that they have, even though they don't have the diploma, because they might have a transcript that shows that they've taken five classes, but at the same time, how do they show that to employers? Because employers look, traditionally, employers wanted to see the diploma or that you've earned your 40 year degree or you've earned your Master's or whatnot. And so I think that part of the things that higher ed has had in the past is, okay, we've kind of built this foundation of these are our core technologies. But I think there's this transition to, okay, what are some of those core technologies that might need to change, might need to evolve? Because if you're a registrar, for example, you need something more than just a transcript because you're no longer just awarding ABCDF, you are awarding micro credentials. You're giving badges away to students. Faculty members are sort of looking at, okay, my students are learning these skills during the course of this particular class, and now we're going to award them badges that never would have happened 510 years ago. And now you've got employers saying, hey, we are going to hire students based on these skills that they have that are verified by the institution.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:15]:

Those are really important points because what we're seeing is a transformation of the value of higher education that's not just US. Based, that's globally. Because when we look at what a degree means, I believe it means something extremely different to those of us working in the academy, to those folks that are outside of the academy looking to employ people who need individuals who can demonstrate critical thinking, problem solving skills, technical knowledge, all of those things. And that's part of what the degree is designed to do. But I would believe that, especially at a liberal arts institution like mine, we're teaching ways to think, not just facts and figures and things like that. And you need both. So the question is, how are we transitioning not only our offerings at the university as a whole from a credentialing perspective, but how are we also doing that in student affairs? And how can technology support those transitions for what the work needs to look like? So I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on that.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:18:12]:

Yeah, well, I think part of it has to do with the fact that because you mentioned critical thinking, critical thinking is a huge part of the experience of higher education and a lot of student affairs programs the underpinnings of those programs definitely includes critical thinking, equity conversations, cultural diversity conversations. And I think that all those aspects, they just weren't measured in the past. Right, so what did you actually learn throughout your experience that wasn't in the classroom? NASPA, for as long as I can remember, has always talked about learning reconsidered. Right. That learning happens throughout the experience of a student, regardless of where they are on campus, off campus, in a class, outside of the class. And so I think that is part of the work that student affairs is going to have to do going forward, because there's a lot of scrutiny right now, obviously, on institutional budgets and outcomes. And the two big R's, of course, are recruitment and retention. And student affairs plays a big part in both of those areas.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:19:08]:

And so I think that the student affairs side of things in terms of transforming kind of what was done to what is being done and what will continue to be done, is going to be verifying and measuring those outcomes so that there's a tangible way to sort of I mentioned badges earlier. How many student affairs divisions are awarding badges to students? You think a lot of times about badges is maybe coming from the academic affairs side of the house. I think that look at Career Services shops, look at the evolution of Career Services because like career centers, they have probably one of the most important roles at institutions. And yet for the longest time, not so much now, but for a long time it was, okay, I'm a junior or a senior, I'll go and talk to career services kind of at the end of my institutional experience before I graduate. And now you see Career Services, they're front loading their engagement with students. So they're at orientation, they're there at first year experience courses, and they're also working alongside employers to connect students to this idea that this is just a step in your journey and we're going to try to help you along. And so I think we're going to see a lot more student affairs divisions awarding badges and getting into the LMS, getting into the badge systems, either coming directly out of a clr or it comes from another provider. I think that's the other thing with this is Ed Tech providers have been very insular in the past.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:20:28]:

Like, we've got a platform and it only works with our platform. And so student data is kind of stuck in this database that's very proprietary and an organization called Oneed Tech, unless you're really deeply involved in sort of the Ed Tech space, you might not be aware of them. But one of the big facets of their work is interoperability sort of this idea that all these digital assets that students have are like Lego and that you can kind of plug and play them independently of a certain system. So, for example, if you have a digital wallet, that has all of your badges and has your skills, your credentials, all that stuff in there, you can take it to another institution. Kind of how students transfer from community college maybe to a university, but usually that's with a traditional transcript. But the overall vision will be learners will have this wallet of all of their verified skills and experiences and credentials that they carry with them in an interoperable plug and play type way. And so the sort of sovereignty of learners becomes a much bigger part of the conversation because there's a lot of data that has been part of this as well. And in student affairs, we don't really talk about data.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:21:36]:

We don't talk about sort of the technical piece because we've been so much about the soft skills, the one to one. If you want to be a dean of students, you're not necessarily getting into a huge portion of the data unless maybe it's connected to retention or some other issue on campus directly. But the Ed tech space, there's so much data that is coming out of that. And so the thing I think will be interesting to see with student affairs throughout every functional area will be the various dashboards and analytics and outcomes coalescing into a space where you can sort of see, okay, where are students at? What do they need? What kind of support do they need? How is that going to influence things that we're doing programmatically as well as for the next as a student goes to another institution for the kind of a handoff, so to speak, because it won't just be your data is stuck at some institution. It's going with you. It's actually traveling along with you, and it might be enabled in some sort of bitcoin wallet that's kind of independent from an institution that's kind of a buzword. But at the same time, that's kind of the ultimate goal, I think, for a lot of companies that are thinking more about the openness of all this. I mean, when you think about the space that I'm currently in and how we interface into higher Ed, it's not just know, NASPA and Acro are playing a big part in this.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:22:53]:

Acro is the Admissions and Registrars Association. They're kind of the home of registrars professionally and technically. Usually that's where the transcript resides. The Lumina Foundation, the big organizations focused on learning and outcomes over the years to even Walmart, because Walmart, I think they're the largest employer in the US. And one of the largest globally. They employ a huge number of people. And so they're thinking about the pathways from higher ed into different careers. I think the pathways piece is one I also want to introduce to this conversation, because it's important to give learners pathways even if they don't graduate, so that people aren't just left with debt and a handful of credits.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:23:31]:

What is it they're actually going to be able to get, even if they don't finish. Because as you know, Jill, sometimes success for one person is just a couple semesters of college and that is like a hugely successful outcome for them. Whereas for a lot of other people, maybe it's graduation, maybe it's master's degree, maybe it's a certificate. Success is very much an individualized thing.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:51]:

Still, it's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:57]:

Jill's, so excited to be back again in the NASPA world. A ton of things happening in NASPA. So many of us have been hearing a ton about artificial intelligence. We are starting to explore it or delve deeper into it on our own college campuses. And in the most recent Leadership Exchange magazine, which you all have access to as a member of NASPA, the editors and authors of that magazine did delve deeply into artificial intelligence in the Metaverse and really asked a broader question of whether our profession, whether student affairs is ready for this. It was a fascinating article and definitely a fascinating magazine. To delve much deeper into this topic. I highly encourage you to go to the NASPA website and you can go under publications to the Leadership Exchange magazine and log in and be able to read that for yourself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:03]:

If you want to check out all the different professional development opportunities, and I know I share a lot of them with you on a regular basis, but if you go under the Events and Online Learning tab, you're going to find everything that is happening within NASPA and around NASPA, all the different professional development opportunities that are available. And this is a great way for you to be able to find things that connect with your professional growth and professional learning that you want. And it will open up opportunities for you to be able to see different ways in which you can grow and learn in your own professional journey. So lots of things happening in NASPA, lots of ways to stay connected with NASPA. Start at the NASPA website, naspa.org, and go and check it out for yourself. Every week we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Because the association is as strong as its members and for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:24]:

And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit, where do you want to give back each week? We're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas. That will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that, or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:19]:

A wonderful NASPA World segment as always, Chris, we really appreciate you keeping us updated. What's going on in and around NASPA? Eric, we are now at our lightning round. I have 90 seconds for you to answer seven questions. You ready to roll?

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:27:31]:

That's like one of those if a train leaves Chicago heading 5 miles an hour kind of questions. I'm ready to go, Jill. Let's go.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:36]:

All right, question number one. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:27:42]:

Well, I've been a conference keynote speaker for many different events, so I always like to go with the Glitch mob. They were always pretty good.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:49]:

Number two, when you were five years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:27:52]:

When I was five years old, I was a little kid in Iowa on a gravel road. I think I wanted to be probably an NBA player because then I would have pavement.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:01]:

Number three, your most influential professional mentor.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:28:04]:

Gosh, there have been so many. I'd say one of the most influential professional mentors I've ever had. Just one. So Kevin Krueger, when we were doing our pre show talk, he's been an instrumental part of my career over the years, and I always appreciated his leadership at NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:20]:

Number four, your essential higher education. Read.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:28:23]:

I would be remiss if I did not say Insidehired.com. I Know that Scott Jassic is retiring as Editor co Editor Of Inside Higher Ed. It's still, in my view, one of the best sites out there for comprehensive coverage of what's going on in higher ed.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:37]:

Number five, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:28:40]:

Oh, gosh, that was years ago now. The best show? Well, my second son was born during the pandemic, and I watched ridiculous amounts of things late, late at night. I would say some sort of Scandinaro thing on Netflix, because that was kind of what I was into at the time.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:56]:

Pandemic's been over for years for you. It's only been over for eight months. Where I'm at. Number six, the podcast you spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:29:04]:

I would say anything from the Enrollify Podcast network. I like the work that they've done. I feel like their shows are really put together nicely, and there's always interesting topics in terms of higher ed innovation and technology.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:17]:

And finally, number seven, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional?

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:29:20]:

First of all, I'd just like to say thank you to Jill for asking me to come on the show. I think that it's always nice to reconnect with folks from Oregon State. So I'll just give you a big shout out because it's been a blast to follow your career sort of vicariously through social networks and social media know you've been just a huge leader around the globe. I mean, you've been everywhere, it seems. So I'm going to give Jill a shout out because I don't think she probably gets enough on these things.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:45]:

Thank you. Appreciate it. Eric, it's been such a joy to catch up with you. I've also followed your career just on social. This is the strength of weak ties. I'll cite Granavetter here as a scholar that I read a lot in my public administration doctorate program. But the Strength of Weak Ties, we haven't spoken maybe ten years probably, but it's so lovely to understand and see how we're both contributing, knowing we started off as babies in grad school. And it's very nice to see what success looks like and means for various people from that time in our lives.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:15]:

And if folks would like to reach you after the show, how can they find you?

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:30:17]:

Territorium.com? Or you can always just Google Eric Stoller. Something will come up, most likely. My email is Eric@territorium.com.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:25]:

Eric with a C. Exactly.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:30:27]:

E-R-I-C.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:28]:

Thank you so much for sharing your voice with us.

Dr. Eric Stoller [00:30:30]:

Thanks so much, Jill. It's been great.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:32]:

This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at savoices@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn. By searching for Dr. Jill L. Craighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:58]:

We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show. And please like, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill L. Creighton Seth Me produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by Lu Yongru.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:23]:

Special thanks to Duke Kunshan University and the University of Michigan, Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Welcome to another episode of SA Voices from the Field podcast. In today's episode, we have a special guest joining us, Kenneth Samson. Kenneth is not only a first-generation American college student, but also a new father. 

Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]:

Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season nine on transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your essay, Voices From the Field host today on Essay Voice, we welcome Kenneth Sampson, a first generation American college student, also known as a 1.5 generation student. His parents have college degrees but graduated in the Philippines. While maneuvering through college.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:36]:

He had a little help from his parents, who had no experience navigating the American college system. He attended Pasadena City College, transferred to California State University, Los Angeles, and graduated with a BA. In English with little help from academic counselors, not because he did not want help, but because he did not know how to ask for help. He's taught English to medical school and high school students for over a decade. Many of those students are first generation American students and 1.5 generation students. He's most recently graduated from the educational counseling program at USC with a Master's of Education in hopes of serving students by promoting help seeking behaviors while increasing outreach for first generation and marginalized students in Southern California Community College. He's beginning his new career this fall as a counselor at Long Beach City College, as well as a counseling instructor at Rio Hondo College, East Los Angeles College and Pasadena City College. Kenneth is also a new father to his two month old son, Kenji.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:30]:

Kenneth, welcome to SA Voices.

Kenneth Samson [00:01:33]:

Hello, Jill. Happy to be here.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:35]:

We're doing our season all on transitions, and you have quite a few of them, and I'm looking forward to getting into your story and what you've learned. But we always like to start our episodes by asking our guests how you found your way to your current position.

Kenneth Samson [00:01:48]:

So I'm in transition right now, so I have a few current positions. I'm actually a teaching adjunct counseling instructor at Pasadena City College, also East Los Angeles College, also Rio Hondo College, and I will be getting actual counseling hours as an adjunct counselor at Long Beach City College. I honestly got that through networking. I graduated from the educational counseling program at USC, and I honestly got it through networking from USC. The USC network is very strong, very powerful. Educational counseling program is also very strong, and I would not have any of these jobs if it was not for that program.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:25]:

So that is a lot of transition happening for you. You also have transition happening in your personal life, right?

Kenneth Samson [00:02:31]:

Yes. I am a new father. My son is two months old. His name is Kenji. Hello, Kenji. If you ever listen to this in the future yes. So that's brand new, super exciting. I also just graduated my program, so going from student to professional and then basically also to fatherhood.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:51]:

So that's a lot happening all at once. So my question in this area is really about how you're managing all of these transitions, what you're thinking about, what is working, what is scaring you, all of those things. So why don't we start with how are you finding yourself managing through all of these transitions?

Kenneth Samson [00:03:07]:

I think the biggest thing is Google Calendar. I'm not sponsored by Google. This is not product placement, but because when I was doing my grad work, I was using my calendar on my phone. I was using Google Calendar. I was using Calendar on Outlook, and I had three different calendars going at the same time. And I learned from that mistake. Someone told me, just put it all on one calendar. I was like, okay, which 01:00 a.m.

Kenneth Samson [00:03:31]:

I going to use. The most accessible and easiest one to use for me was Google Calendar. So I just have it all there. Easy for me to see. In addition, my partner can see what I'm doing, what site I'm at, right? Because I'm at four different colleges. So it helps her. Also.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:46]:

That's an interesting part of your transition, too, that you didn't just move from student to professional. You moved from student to professional with four different work environments. And so daily or weekly, you're transitioning.

Kenneth Samson [00:03:57]:

Through those as well.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:58]:

So tell us about how you found yourself able to settle into each community, knowing that each community is a little different.

Kenneth Samson [00:04:05]:

So knowing the they're all in Southern California, right? And when you are adjuncting, especially at community colleges, right. They call you a freeway flyer. So I'm definitely a freeway flyer, right. Flying from one campus to another. How I really got with this community was honestly through again, that network at USC, the educational counseling program, being able to build from that and meeting people through there, getting support through there and then having people from that program. Connect me with other people in the career center or in student affairs or at the transfer center. Just building that community within those college spaces.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:43]:

And what about your first couple of days at each space? How did you ensure a landing that worked for you?

Kenneth Samson [00:04:50]:

So for some of them, I have not started yet. Right. I just got hired at HR. Interesting. For the ones that I have been able to land, actually, I was also interning there beforehand, so I mentioned Pasadena City College. I was actually a student there way back when. I was a community college student, eventually transferred, so I felt home there. That's definitely where I want to end up.

Kenneth Samson [00:05:14]:

But I'm open to ending up any community college, supporting any population or any specific group of students. But that's really where I feel at home, because that's actually where I met my partner. So we were actually freshmen first semester, right out of high school. We were in something called a block program, which basically was like a cohort model. And I noticed her, she noticed me, and we've been together ever since, basically now we have a child together, right. And she actually works there as well. So she's a full time tenure English professor over there. So for Pasadena City College.

Kenneth Samson [00:05:47]:

Really felt home there. East Los Angeles College is the other place where I'm also familiar with I was an intern there at the transfer center. Everyone just talked about how great this graduate internship was at the transfer center, and really I learned so much there. The director over there, Kirby Dominguez is it. He really wants you to learn and really isn't intimidating and allows you to ask questions. Right. To make sure you're giving the best information and the correct information to students, especially when it comes to transfer.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:17]:

What does that mean for you to move from that intern space to that professional space?

Kenneth Samson [00:06:22]:

For me, it's huge. It's definitely a shift. The biggest jump or the biggest change is the paycheck. Obviously you're like, oh wow, all of a sudden I'm making good money. So that was interesting. But in terms of the professional space, both places, honestly, I didn't feel like an intern because neither one of those places, they don't really call. On paper, you're an intern, but the title that they give you when you're there, it's not intern. At PCC Pasadena City College, I was a success coach.

Kenneth Samson [00:06:52]:

And even their interns or their hourly, they don't call hourly or interns. They call them professional experts. So they already gave you that idea of, oh, hey, you're a professional, you know what you're doing here? We hired you for a reason. Same thing at East Los Angeles College, even though it's unclassified paid. Intern is what they're called right. At the transfer center. The transfer center, they call us transfer mentors because we're mentoring these community college students to transfer to a four year university, whether that's in state, out of state, private.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:19]:

Have you had to do any redefining of your relationships with colleagues that knew you as that success coach that are now seeing you as an instructor?

Kenneth Samson [00:07:26]:

No, honestly, and I think because they know my past. I actually was a K through twelve teacher for quite some time after getting my bachelor's, so I didn't go back to get my master's until a decade later, basically. So I was in the professional space in K through twelve for a while. So they knew that, oh, he has teaching experience, which is probably why I've gotten so many classes at three different colleges. Right. Lucky enough that helped me leverage my experience, helped me leverage getting those positions.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:58]:

That K twelve space to higher ed is a jump that I hear a lot from K twelve educators who are looking to break into the higher ed space. Do you have any advice for others who are trying to make that leap?

Kenneth Samson [00:08:08]:

Yes. And this is the advice that someone gave me. If you're going to do that leap, jump in the deep end, jump in headfirst all the way. Right. I had a full time position going K through twelve teaching, and I decided that, oh, I want to work specifically at the California Community College level. And someone told me, if you're going to do that, you have to go all in and you have to really do the internships, you have to really invest your time and it'll pay off. And that's what I did. I left my full time job with benefits, took a huge pay cut, right.

Kenneth Samson [00:08:40]:

I was doing like two, three internships, but still, that was nothing compared to what I used to make. And also I was paying a USC tuition, so luckily I had some savings. But it was definitely a shift economically for me. But that's my advice, because at the end it'll pay off. And really what you'll learn as an intern is invaluable, and it's so much easier to ask, I think, administrators, deans, oh, I'm a student and I want experience in this. Right. The thing is, if have a full time job, when will you have the time to ask for that, get that experience?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:13]:

And that is definitely an amazing thing that you're able to do. And at the same time, I know there's a lot of folks for whom that would not be economically possible. Do you have any advice for those who can't maybe take that leap as deeply scholarships?

Kenneth Samson [00:09:25]:

That's something I learned not just at USC, but even as a transfer mentor at East Los Angeles college scholarships. Right. Apply to any and all of them. Don't tell yourself no, let them tell you, you know, there's a scholarship for anything and everything under the sun. In addition, there are scholarships. Even if you don't identify with that specific group, if you're supporting that group, they'll recognize, oh, this person is helping our community. They're giving us something, why not give something back to that individual?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:52]:

What about mindset? Transitions, transitioning from that k twelve space where you're teaching children to the collegiate space where you're teaching adults. How have you shifted the way that you think about teaching?

Kenneth Samson [00:10:04]:

I teach at a supplemental education center also, so I still actually teach just a few classes on the weekend to K through twelve students, middle school and high school specifically. And I think being in the program and seeing the college space that they're hoping to get into has changed my mind into not necessarily hammering them with content, but helping them develop ideas. Because before at the supplemental education center, I teach grammar and writing, right. And I teach grammar to first generation students and also 1.5 generation students. And it's something where their parents really want them to learn the grammar and syntax of the English language because maybe they're not getting it at home. And so initially, that's how I kind of hammered it down, even with their writing, even with their reading comprehension to break it down, grammatically syntactically for them to understand. But with my counseling training and even entering the college space, I've learned that they're going to get that eventually. There is time for that.

Kenneth Samson [00:11:01]:

But thing is to build up their confidence, allow them to come up with ideas, not make it seem like college is so scary. Because I think when I was a high school teacher and before I entered the college space as a professional, it was like, oh, well, college professors, college instructors, they're going to expect this from you and that from you. And being in that space, it's like, oh no, actually they're compassionate as well as compassionate as I was in the K through twelve. Right. They understand life circumstances. They understand that life happens and that they're human. Also. It's not that, oh, because you're in college now, there's some type of rigor that they won't be used to.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:37]:

I want to co sign something you said about encouraging people to come up with their own ideas. And it sounds like what you're really teaching is bravery. And I read an article recently that bravery is the number one trait or skill set that we can help instill in young people, to help create a kind of a forward thinking human being or encourage a forward thinking human being. More so than anything else, there's all these articles about resilience and critical thinking and all these other things, but bravery is really that number one.

Kenneth Samson [00:12:03]:

Yes, empowering students, and not just empowering students, but giving them that space to feel empowered I think is important.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:10]:

Absolutely. So in all of these transitions that you're experiencing, is there anything that you can look back on and say, I really wish I would have known X, Y, or Z before starting the transition process, or anything that you wish you would have done maybe a little differently?

Kenneth Samson [00:12:24]:

I really wish I would have prepared more. I think before graduating, I knew what jobs I wanted to apply to and I knew what colleges I was going to apply to and doing that preparation into the professional world because I had a resume, I had a cover letter, and it was kind of generic. It wasn't tailored to that college that now I know, oh no, you need to tailor it to that college, to that program. It was difficult for me because then I had the time right before I graduated to do that, but I didn't take it because I was like, oh, I worked so hard in my master's program, I'm going to kind of coast till the end. Well, after I graduated, my son was born. And then it's like, oh, you don't have time to work on your resume or your cover letter or these applications like you wanted to. You should have done that earlier. Right.

Kenneth Samson [00:13:10]:

So just definitely pre planning, especially since I knew he was coming, maybe had.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:16]:

A little advanced notice.

Kenneth Samson [00:13:18]:

Yeah.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:19]:

And with that in mind, the transition to parenthood is a major shift in any human being's life. How have you managed the transition to balancing the needs, your family and also the burgeoning career that you're developing?

Kenneth Samson [00:13:31]:

Yeah, I think definitely carving out time that is dedicated to my family and telling my coworkers, my colleagues, and even my friends, oh, this is my family time. Right. Because with all those jobs, with those classes that I teach and those counseling hours that I will eventually be covering, I want them to know, oh, when I'm there, I'm there for you wholeheartedly. I'm there 110%. You have my undivided attention. But then when I'm home, that's home time for my family to make sure because I want to show my son that he can do all of these things right. But I also want him to know me as well. I don't want to be the parent that, oh, he comes home at like 08:00 P.m.

Kenneth Samson [00:14:07]:

And then leaves at 08:00 A.m. Or even 07:00 A.m. Because right. I'm in Southern California, in Los Angeles area, so traffic is crazy over here. And he's gone to I can tell now, but it's summer, so I'm excited for the semester to start. But I'm also sad because I know I'm going to see less of him, but I want him to you know, that's my dad. He's here, he's got me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:28]:

And is there any other major transition that you're going through right now? And we've talked about family. We've talked about graduating, starting new positions, and even switching industries. There's just so many transitions that you're reflecting on. Is there anything that we're not talking about?

Kenneth Samson [00:14:45]:

I hope that's all. If there's anything else, I think that kind of covers it. I think that's enough.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:51]:

Oh, absolutely. Is there anything in all these transitions that didn't go well for you?

Kenneth Samson [00:14:56]:

Yeah, going back to application process, I did apply to one specifically that I really wanted to work at, and it didn't pan out. I didn't even get an interview, and I was like, One of my Femtors works there. And I was like, how awesome will it be that I'm going to work under my Femtor at this college? And it basically didn't happen. And that really hurt me a bit. Kind of shattered some dreams because that application in all the application pools was the first one to open. So right after that, I was kind of discouraged. I didn't know I didn't even get an interview, and I thought I was a pretty competitive candidate. That one really still hurts.

Kenneth Samson [00:15:35]:

But I was lucky enough to do meet with my Femtor, get some feedback, not just on my application, but my cover letter as well and my resume. I'm like, oh, I know I'll eventually end up there. I'm going to apply next year and keep applying.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:48]:

That's a really wonderful approach to that kind of disappointment. It's not a question of beating yourself up about it. It's a question of how can I improve so I can be more competitive in the future, and we just don't know what we're up against often in those job pools or what it is about our materials that weren't necessarily attractive to that search committee in that first round. So I just really appreciate your approach of going, okay, let's turn this around and just look a little differently.

Kenneth Samson [00:16:12]:

Yeah. And after that, right now, I'm at four community colleges. I'm like, oh, so maybe I wasn't the right fit for them at that time, but I was the right fit for these other community colleges right. That needed me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:24]:

Is there anything else that you want our listeners to hear about your advice for transitioning?

Kenneth Samson [00:16:29]:

Maybe as cheesy or as corny as this sounds, honestly, follow your dreams. Like, I'm living proof. I'm working at where I started my higher education career as a student. I'm an adjunct instructor there now. Also, don't be afraid. I was very afraid to leave my job, leave my full time job with benefits. But if it's something that you want to do and something that you're passionate about, go and do it, because it's better to see how it turns out than live in regret, I think, right? And for really, it's no regrets.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:03]:

It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:09]:

Jill's so excited to be back again in the NASPA world. A ton of things happening in NASPA, and it's exciting time to be a part of our profession because there's so much going on. And it's an exciting time just on campuses because fall has started. We're back into the mix of things, and there's definitely a lot happening on our campuses. Sometimes it's hard to stay on top of things. I know that. I sometimes feel that way. I'm sure that you feel that way as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:39]:

But it's always important to try to stay connected with what's going on in the profession broader than our campus. And there's a ton of ways to do that. There's ways to do that and getting involved at the association level. You can get involved in different knowledge communities in different divisions and groups. Lots of ways to be able to not only give back your own talents, but also lots of ways to stay connected. And when I say get involved, that doesn't mean that you have to take a leadership role. It could just be reading what's being sent out. It could be being a program reviewer and giving a little bit of time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:17]:

There's lots of ways. One of the things that I always encourage people to do every fall is to log back in to your NASPA portal. And when you go to the NASPA website, you'll see a login button at the top of the screen. You just log in there. And when you log in, one of the things to do is to review all of your information so you can click on my NASPA and where it says Edit my profile, click on that and review all your information. Make sure that all your information is correct. And if your membership is coming up too close to be due, you want to make sure that you do renew your membership, but also set those notification preferences on your profile. Make sure that you're signed up for the knowledge communities or the areas that you want to get information from because this is a way for you to be able to stay connected.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:13]:

And if you're not connected, if you haven't signed up for any of the different engagement opportunities, then you're not going to end up being able to get information from those. So make sure that you go in and I say to do this at least once a year to make sure that everything's up to date. And then you'll be up to date. You'll be getting all the information and be in the know, talking about being in the know. One of the other things that I have talked to you about in the past, but I encourage you to do on a regular basis, is go back to the NASPA website, go under the latest and under the latest. This is where you can find not only all the past episodes of Essay Voices from the Field, but this is where you can find the blog for NASPA, all the statements that NASPA puts out, the press releases, other projects and initiatives that they're working on. But on the blog you're going to see up to date information that will keep you in the know of new things that are happening within our association, within higher education and beyond. Urge you to keep an eye here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:31]:

All of the knowledge communities try to keep this up to date. Many of the different areas within NASPA try to keep it up to date with blogs and articles to be able to engage you as members. And these are written by members of the association like yourself. So jump on here, make sure that you stay in the know and be able to see what is happening within the profession. So lots of things happening in NASPA, lots of ways to stay connected with NASPA. Start at the NASPA website, naspa.org and go and check it out for yourself. Every week we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:24]:

Because the association is as strong as its members and for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself. Where do you fit. Where do you want to give back? Each week? We're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:36]:

Chris, thanks so much for keeping us updated on what's going on in and around NASPA. We really appreciate you putting together those segments every week. Kenneth, we have now reached our lightning round time. I have about 90 seconds for you to answer seven questions. You ready to go?

Kenneth Samson [00:22:50]:

Yeah. Let's do it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:50]:

All right, question number one. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Kenneth Samson [00:22:56]:

Bohemian Rhapsody.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:57]:

Number two. When you were five years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Kenneth Samson [00:23:00]:

A karate instructor.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:01]:

Number three. Who's your most influential professional mentor?

Kenneth Samson [00:23:04]:

Dr. Robert opentile.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:06]:

Number four. Your essential student affairs.

Kenneth Samson [00:23:08]:

Read anything inside the higher ed.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:10]:

Number five. The best TV show you binged during the pandemic.

Kenneth Samson [00:23:13]:

The Big bang theory.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:15]:

Number six. And I know you commute a lot, so hopefully you've got a good one for this. The podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Kenneth Samson [00:23:22]:

American capitalism or capitalist America?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:24]:

And finally, number seven. Any shout outs you'd like to give? Personal or professional?

Kenneth Samson [00:23:27]:

Yes. Shout out to Juliana Sampson, my wife. I love you so much. Shout out to Kenji Sampson, my two month old son. I love him so much as well. I do everything for you all. Shout out to my family, friends. Shout out again to the USC Educational Counseling program.

Kenneth Samson [00:23:45]:

I would not be where I am without all of you over there.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:47]:

Kenneth, it's been such a pleasure getting to know you better on the show here. If anyone would like to reach you after this airs, how can they find you?

Kenneth Samson [00:23:53]:

LinkedIn is probably the best way to reach out to me professionally. So it's basically LinkedIn.com. Kennethsampson. That's K-E-N-N-E-T-H-S-A-M-S-O-N. That's probably the best way to get to me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:08]:

Thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today.

Kenneth Samson [00:24:10]:

Thank you, Jill.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:12]:

This has been an episode of Essay Voices from the Field, brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at savoices@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn. By searching for Dr. Jill L. Craighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:37]:

We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show. And please like, rate and review us on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill L. Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to Duke Kunshan University and the University of Michigan, Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Welcome back to another episode of SA Voices From The Field! In today's episode, we have a special guest, Hyunmin Kim, who will be sharing their insights and experiences in the field of higher education and student affairs.

In this episode of the "Student Affairs Voices From the Field" podcast, Dr. Jill Creighton interviews Hyunmin Kim, the assistant director of residential life for the Courtyards at the University of Maryland. Hyunmin shares his journey into student affairs and his recent transition into his current role.

Hyunmin's journey into student affairs began with a personal connection to residential life, as he grew up in a family housing unit on a university campus. He found his passion for working with students while in college, leading him to pursue a master's degree in public administration with a focus on educational leadership. His career path eventually led him to become the assistant director at the Courtyards.

During the discussion, Hyunmin reflects on his first 90 days in his new role, highlighting the challenges and learning experiences. He emphasizes the importance of taking time to reflect and recharge, especially in a field that can be emotionally demanding.

Hyunmin also discusses his approach to supervising professional staff and the transition from supervising paraprofessionals. He values building close relationships with those he supervises and believes in a balance of professionalism and personal connection.

Looking ahead, Hyunmin discusses his plans to focus on building a strong culture and traditions within the Courtyards community. He aims to engage upperclassmen residents and establish a legacy of involvement and participation. Additionally, he explores ways to use social media to connect with students and meet them where they are while maintaining the university's educational mission.

In conclusion, Hyunmin encourages others in the field to smile, remember why they chose student affairs, and be innovative in their approach to engage and support students. He also stresses the importance of setting a positive and inclusive culture within residential communities.

Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]:

Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 9 on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on SA Voices, we're pleased to feature Hyunmin Kim, who is serving as the assistant director of residential life for the Courtyards at the University of Maryland. He was born in Seoul, South Korea, but was raised in Nashville, Tennessee. He has a master's in public administration from American University with a focus in educational leadership. At the courtyards you could always find him joking with residents and looking to find new and interesting ways to interact with residents. Hyun Min, welcome to the show.

Hyunmin Kim [00:00:48]:

Hello. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:50]:

And we're talking to you today from Maryland College Park.

Hyunmin Kim [00:00:53]:

Yes? Yes. That is correct.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:54]:

Well, we're glad to get to know you today in our theme of transitions. And one of the things that we love to kick off our show with is asking someone how they got to their current seat. So what is your come up journey to being the assistant director at Maryland College Park?

Hyunmin Kim [00:01:08]:

Yeah. I love giving a good old origin story. I think it's a pretty common story amongst higher educators. I think when I started college, I had A little bit of, like, an idea about, like, something that I wanted to do. And then I got to college, and I realized that it just really wasn't for me, and I had no passion for it. So it was time for a bit of soul searching. Right? Because, obviously, it's just like I work my whole life for a specific goal and then just goes down the drain. So I kinda started to think back about kind of experiences that I had growing up that I really enjoyed.

Hyunmin Kim [00:01:35]:

So my parents immigrated from South Korea. My dad did his PhD in Nashville at Vanderbilt University, And we lived in a residential college then, like a family housing unit. And I remember as a kid just kind of being a part of that community growing up, just going to those events at the rec centered with my father, and it was I think it was a lot of fun for me as a kid. So then I got involved on our campus, you know, through hall council. It's very you know, the classic higher ed store. Hall council, RHA, the desk, and all that. Then kinda slowly, I just realized that I had a real passion for it, so I did my master's in public administration and leadership Development. And then did my grad work, and then I just ended up at the Courtyard at the University of Maryland, and I just kind of ended up as the assistant director.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:12]:

And how long have you been in that assistant director seat now?

Hyunmin Kim [00:02:16]:

Since May of this year, so not too long. Not too long. Very fresh, the position.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:19]:

Absolutely. And before that, you were in the coordinator position at the same university. Yes?

Hyunmin Kim [00:02:25]:

Yes. I was a resident director.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:27]:

So one of the things we're gonna be focusing on for you today is the 90 day story, the 90 day transition because you're basically just coming out of the other side of that 90 days, right about now. And interesting for your transition that it happened really in the summertime, which is a much more chill time to transition a position in our industry than it would be if you did it in, like, October or something. So tell us about the beginnings of the transition in terms of wanting to interview with your current colleagues for a position because I know that that can be a really nerve wracking space.

Hyunmin Kim [00:02:57]:

I think the first thing that I really thought about was when when they approached me, like, hey. Like, this This position's opening up. Would you be interested? It's a less formal interview process because we know you, but would you still be interested? And I think I really thought it's like, Am I qualified to be the assistant director? Right? Because I'm I think I'm on the younger side, for higher educators. I'm, like, coming into, like, Year 2 of it, so I was a resident director for a year, and then they approached me at this position. And I think that was the first thing that I thought was, like, am I ready? Can I actually do it, and what do I actually what does an assistant director actually do? And I talked to my boss who was the assistant director at the time, And she was like, you're ready. I mean, you you worked underneath me. You can do it. It's just a matter of getting there and just showing up for the job and following through and and learning as you go and Kind of understanding how the role plays a part into the community as you continue to work in the role.

Hyunmin Kim [00:03:46]:

So, you know, I go through the process. I think now that I've kind of been that 90 day, as you said, it's I feel like now I'm slowly getting comfortable as to what I'm supposed to do. The qualified part, I think every day, that's a struggle just, like, knowing if I'm doing the I think if this is actually making a good impact for my student staff or the students that I work with, I think it was overall a very interesting transition, and I think a lot of time for Self reflection on my part about my years as a director.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:09]:

So in that self reflection, how did you come to the determination that you were ready and you didn't wanna apply?

Hyunmin Kim [00:04:14]:

I think my life's Motto has always been, you gotta try it first. And if it doesn't work, then, like, you'll know, but, like, you gotta at least try. And I'm a very hands on guy. I've always been more of human, and I've just really enjoyed getting my hands deep with the students. So I think my mindset was is if I'm just in my head space constantly fighting demons, that I I really never will know, and then it'll go to someone else who may not know the community as well as I do, who may not know my students as well as I do, who may not know the needs as well as I do. And I think I came to kind of the conclusion that I do know what my students need and what my students staff especially need. So I was just like, alright. We're gonna run with it.

Hyunmin Kim [00:04:48]:

We're gonna do it. And, If it doesn't work, then we're gonna grow, we're gonna improve, but I won't know until I try. So I just kind of jumped in a little bit. I turned off my brain a little bit.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:57]:

And you made that leap from 1st entry level professional into that mid level, like, as you said, pretty quickly. So what are the skills and abilities and knowledge areas that you needed or the KSAs in order to really start to think about the conceptualization of how your regular work and your mindset towards work need to change in that jump.

Hyunmin Kim [00:05:16]:

Yeah. I mean, I think as a resident director, you really are I mean, I've, you know, much love for all the resident directors. It's just you're really out there with the students. You're the 1st line of defense in the trenches, and I think sometimes it's easy to lose sight of the bigger picture as you're always just so, like, knee deep with students. And I think that year of Maybe with my RAs, it was just like I was just so knee deep with them. It was sometimes hard to see the bigger picture as to why sometimes my supervisors were making the decisions that were being made. I'm like, why why are we why we doing this, and I think going to my 1st NASP, interacting with, you know, the KC, but also just kind of, like, talking to other friend other colleagues and friends in the area. I had to kind of take a step back and kinda distance myself a little bit from my students who I enjoy so much just to kind of See the bigger picture.

Hyunmin Kim [00:05:58]:

Right? Because it's not just student staff that I work with or it's not just students that I work with. It it's the collective body of the courtyards, and and it was just trying I had to kind of just take a step back and be less hands on, be a little less turn off brainy, and actually turn on my brain a little bit more to see what the bigger picture was and to understand what it meant to To kind of make the harder decisions, the harder calls, and I guess transitioning my mindset to be a little bit more broader focused rather than so narrowly focused on Just like one specific sect, I guess, of higher ed.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:26]:

And when you think about working with the students, which I think is why almost all of us got into higher education is we're really passionate about working with developing adults. How has that changed your relationship with the students in your community given now that you're not in the day to day and you're in that mid level leadership space?

Hyunmin Kim [00:06:42]:

Honestly, I think especially right now because it it has been my and now, like, the school year started, I'm not doing as much up front interaction with the residents. It's a little lonely. Like, I'm not gonna lie. Like, middle management is great, but also I think there's a little bit of loneliness at the top. I see them a lot less, and I can't interact with them as much. So I find myself talking to them more, which I don't know if they want that from me, but, like, I get a lot more Excited now. So I find myself actually just going up to them a lot more, asking my RD, like, what's the deal with this resident? What's the deal with this RA? Like, I think I try to Stay in the notes, stay in the loop more. I I find myself spending more time at programs.

Hyunmin Kim [00:07:18]:

Like, I'll just kinda show up and just kinda sit there and be like, alright, guys. Just do your stuff. Like, I'm just gonna be here. I just wanna See what's going on. I just wanna know what's happening. So I think I've had to become a lot more intentional with how I interact with students because it really is kinda why we all do it. When you are middle management, you see it a lot less, And it's a lot more paperwork and which is so much fun. But leaving that office is like, let's talk to people. But yeah. So just being a lot more intentional in my interactions with them and Approaching them a lot more and making them talk to me a lot more.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:45]:

So that 90 day space is a really critical upstart time for anyone in a new position. And even if you've been at the same institution, there's a lot to learn. So can you tell us about how you approached that 1st day of entering into that new space, you know, mentally coming onto campus and knowing, okay. Today, I'm the assistant director. And then how did you strategize for yourself looking ahead in those first

Hyunmin Kim [00:08:05]:

90? When I transitioned, all of us were transitioning into new spaces as well. So my supervisor, who is still my supervisor, she's now the associate director, like, of the courtyards and the commons, and And we were looking for a new resident director. So within that 90 days, it was just a lot of hat juggling for me. It's like, are you still kind of the resident director? You're still kind of the assistant. My boss is busy. Like, I don't know where she is. Like, I'm just juggling hats here. And I think it was really just I have to hold down the fort 1st, cover all our bases, and then I can kind of process what it means to be an assistant director.

Hyunmin Kim [00:08:39]:

So I think for the 1st 45 days, it was just me, like, Cutting out fires, just making sure that, like, everything was, like, fine and ready, you know, for the move in process to start, like, late July, like, early August, just all of that. Like, make sure that all of that's ready. Making sure that my resident director is prepped and ready to go, thinking about what type of supervisor that I wanna be. So the 1st 45 days is just like, Like, the sky is literally falling. And then I think after those 45 days, after we got an a new resident director, I started to kinda have that mentorship responsibility. And I think It really hit me that day. It wasn't even the 1st day. I don't even think it was, you know, like, the 1st 45 days.

Hyunmin Kim [00:09:14]:

It was, like, the 1st, like, 60 days. My resident director just kinda sits out of my office. She kinda plops out. She just goes, How do you have all the answers, dude? I'm like, that was literally me last year. Right? Like, I was like, I got nothing for you. If you told me, hey, Hamdan, what's this policy? I'd be like, ask Olivia, who's my boss? And she just goes, how do you know everything? And I think During that conversation where she kinda felt like, I feel a little out of place because I feel like I don't know enough. And, you know, we were kinda able to have that Talk about, like, new employee kind of, like, loneliness, new employee, like, imposter syndrome that you feel when you're a new employee. I think helping her talk through that was kind of that, like, oh, I am someone's supervisor now.

Hyunmin Kim [00:09:53]:

And the kind of the pressure and the responsibility that comes with it, I think that it was that around that conversation when that hit. And that and that's kinda when, like, my mindset became less resident director and more assistant director.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:03]:

Are you supervising professional staff now as well?

Hyunmin Kim [00:10:06]:

Yeah. I have 1 resident director that I with us.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:08]:

Okay. So you've gone from supervising all paraprofessionals to supervising 1 full time professional. Tell us about that transition and how you've adjusted your supervisory style and maybe any reading or research that you've done on how you can be a good supervisor for that person.

Hyunmin Kim [00:10:21]:

I think I prefer professional Staff member a little bit more because I think with RAs, we're friendly. We have fun, but we there's, like, a line that you can't cross. And I still have to be, like, conscious of them. I I mean, we're all developing, but they're, like, in that extremely, like, developmental stage of their lives. So I Think any and all criticism and, like, feedback that I give to them, I like to just kinda be a little bit more mindful with it. And I think with a professional staff member because it is their full time job, we kinda talked. I was like, hey. Like, so So what do you need from me as your supervisor? And after I kinda learned that and I knew her previously because she was my RA, actually.

Hyunmin Kim [00:10:55]:

She She transitioned from that. We all just kind of did a little bit of a small leap over. So carrying that relationship over, having that preexisting between professional and paraprofessional to professional and professional. There was a lot for me to learn. So I think I obviously I talked to some of my bosses. Right? I talked to some of my other colleagues. Started doing a little bit of reading, like, as to because since I did do my master's in, like, management, like, leadership, stuff like that, I went back to my readings, went back to some of the essays that I wrote just Like, what was I thinking in grad school? Like, do I still think that way? Right? Because I I think it hasn't been too long, but I think just working with students, I think your thought process is subject Change a lot. And then I watched The Office.

Hyunmin Kim [00:11:33]:

I'm not going to lie. I just kinda sat down. I just kinda watched The Office, which is it's always a show, but it's the show that American workers voted, like, was the most relatable to them because it just kinda felt like The Office. So I just Sat down, and I just kinda started watching Michael Scott, Jim Halpert. Just though those people just going through their day to day, supervising each other, and Kind of like how interesting, like because I'm a big pop culture guy, so just kinda synthesize that pop culture element with that academic element to try to Synthesized that, and then I talked to my supervisee about it, and then we just kinda worked out that relationship that way.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:05]:

I think that's really fascinating that you use the office as kind of a Control case study on the work in higher ed. Because I think that, you know, the the core of Michael Scott as a character is that he's a horrible supervisor for most of his work, but he also deeply cares about his employees. He knows all the names of Angela's cats and things like that. Like, when Sprinkles dies, he doesn't even have to ask which cat. He just knows It's sprinkles. And so I think those things are are fascinating to learn. Like, oh, you can care deeply as a manager and still be a terrible manager, or you can be fairly decent as a manager, but your employees might not like to you. And there's probably a balance in there.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:36]:

I like Radical Candor personally, where it's been challenged directly and care personally. Those things I I think are critical, but we're all learning how to operationalize them even if we believe them in philosophy.

Hyunmin Kim [00:12:46]:

I would say I'm doing alright, but, you know, I'll have to ask her tomorrow. It's like, can I have a do it? But it was fun.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:51]:

So reflecting on that 1st 90 days now that you're you're through, is there anything that you wish you would have done a little differently to set yourself up for success?

Hyunmin Kim [00:12:58]:

I think I should have taken some more time to breathe in the 1st 90 days. I don't remember my 1st 90 days, if I'm gonna be completely honest. I blacked out For those 90 days. So if you told me what happened from May till, like, now, I'd be like, I couldn't tell you. There's isolated incidents, but I think I should have taken some more time to breathe. I'm a pretty reflective person normally, but I don't think I took as much time for myself to reflect During those 90 days, I think during that 1st week and stuff like that. I mean, obviously, I think thinking too much wouldn't have been great, but I think I just kind of, like, sped run it and just kinda push through it. So I think I just kinda overwhelmed myself to the point where, like, I think there was, like, a couple weekends back where I just had to, like, turn off, Every single device, like, every phone, I was like, hey.

Hyunmin Kim [00:13:41]:

I can't be on duty. Someone else can be on call. It's not me today. I just slept for, like, 18 hours, and And I was just like, I can't do this today. And I just ordered it and just, like, had a a me day, but I think that was long overdue because I think I should've Taking more time to take care of myself throughout that 1st 90 days. So Did you take a break at all between the RHD role and the assistant director role?

Hyunmin Kim [00:14:02]:

I had, like, a week and half home, which I think comes with other responsibilities. So when I'm home now, it's gotta help. I'm the eldest son of an immigrant family. Obviously, my parents, I'm very grateful. I think I have a less classic immigrant story than some of my other colleagues because my father is an English professor. So he's very fluent in English. I've never had to translate for that man. Like, that man speaks better English than most Americans do.

Hyunmin Kim [00:14:24]:

But it's just other responsibilities just being home, part of that community. So home is home, but it's not fully relaxing because you still gotta help your parents, your siblings while you're there, you know, the members of your community while you're there. So it went from, like, Helping 1 community to the next community. So by the time I got back, I was just, like, exhausted.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:42]:

So resting is a great tip. And then looking at your journey in the last 90 days of what's been really amazing or what's gone really well for you, what's something that you would definitely repeat when you make your next 90 day jump?

Hyunmin Kim [00:14:52]:

This was by accident because we were like, our offices were under construction, but I had to share an office with my RD for, like, a month. So we had, like, a fun little buddy cop set up where, like, both of our desks We're, like, pushed together so, like, we'd face each other at work.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:06]:

So you'd wait in gym?

Hyunmin Kim [00:15:07]:

Quite literally. I mean, we actually kinda have that dynamic as we play jokes on each together. It's very fun, but I don't know how feasible I would be in the next 90 day job because that would be a little bit of a higher position. But I really would wanna spend A lot more close time with the people that I supervise more so because those 30 days of me getting to know my RD a lot more Closer than when I knew her as an RA. It was just so much fun. It was in a very real time because she's my boss, like, question. And can we talk about this? Let's figure this out. We, like, interviewed our race together, like, in that office.

Hyunmin Kim [00:15:38]:

So it was a good time to kinda, like, very personally get to know her so I could have that professional, but also Have that, like, heart behind it. So now I can be like, alright. You better turn the center again. I'm gonna fire you, like, tomorrow. And she's like, yeah. If you would. And then we just, like, banter back and forth. We have, like, a very, like, Quippy and quirky dynamic, but I think that 30 days of sharing the office, I think, for me was extremely meaningful.

Hyunmin Kim [00:15:58]:

I don't know if she liked it, but I'd so if I could do that again, I'd wanna spend more time with the people that I supervise and a lot closer. Even if that meant I don't get to use my Nice office for a little bit. I just wanna spend as much time as I could with my supervisees before we hit the ball running again.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:13]:

So you've shared a lot of wisdom related to your own transition. Is there anything else that you wanna share regarding the last 90 days?

Hyunmin Kim [00:16:20]:

I would just say, like, smile. Like, just smile and just kinda remember why you started higher ed. And I think that was a big thing for me. Because this job, I feel like the field can get tiring. Student affairs is is inherently a tiring role because it's a people role. Our job is people. Our job is emotion, and our job is care. And we're all humans, and I think we all have that breaking point of when we give too much of us and there's not enough of us left.

Hyunmin Kim [00:16:44]:

And I think just smiling, remembering back why you started, going back Pure roots. Even for me, and I haven't been in a position very long. Sometimes I forget why I started. It sometimes just feels like a job, and it is. But at the end of the day, it was a passion project that I started that's been with me since I was a kid, and I think I just remember back to that level of joy that I had as a kid just growing up in a residential facility, but then as a college student, just all the fun times with the residents. Just What other position can you just yell on the quad at strangers? And that's fine. And it it's higher ed. Right? It's just such a fun, quirky, just Charismatic field where there really aren't as many borders as you'd like to think, but it's the fields continuously growing.

Hyunmin Kim [00:17:22]:

So I would just say smile, remember why you did it, and just remember to, I guess just be really innovative in what you do. Just because there's a set precedent about what higher it's supposed to be doesn't mean that that's the precedent we're supposed to always follow. And I think being a little unorthodox with it, there's nothing wrong with that. So if you're listening, smile, remember back, and be a little chaotic. A little bit of chaotic. It never did anyone wrong, I think, as long as metered, obviously, but that would be my words of advice for anyone who wants to start or who's in that transitionary period.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:50]:

And I'm hearing that as kinda smile for yourself, not like smile because other people are asking you to smile. Just to clarify. Absolutely. That's what I'm hearing. Thank you so much for the wisdom in this area. So let's look ahead for a second. You finished your 1st 90 days, like, moments ago. What are you looking at in the future 90 days?

Hyunmin Kim [00:18:09]:

Culture building is my next thing. So I'm a big believer in tradition and culture and fun rituals. So this idea got shut down, but I wanted to start, like, a ResLife Twitter account so we could, like, tweet other, Or I guess it's x now. But so we could start, like, talking to other resident halls so we could just casually hit up North Campus, be like, hey. Soccer 1 v one. Just kinda have that fun little banter between residence halls. They said we couldn't because, you know, like, it it'd be a problem. They're like, that's too professional.

Hyunmin Kim [00:18:34]:

I'm like, alright. My bad.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:36]:

Wendy's do it.

Hyunmin Kim [00:18:37]:

Right. That's what I'm saying. Imagine you wake up one day and 1 dorm's calling and another dorm's stinking, and it's like, oh, this is funny. Like and then you kinda see, like, what knowledge each storm has. And, you know, I think that would raise resident engagement and interest because you don't see that very often, but they wouldn't me. So it's okay. I'll figure it out another way to do it. But, no, I think tradition and culture establishing what it is to be, like, at courtyards, I think for me is is really important because COVID stopped a lot of that.

Hyunmin Kim [00:19:02]:

A lot of those older traditions and and, like, I think we had some good traditions, but I think as we need to, we need to evolve, we need to grow, and we need to Be hip with the times as as one might say. Woah. Woah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Hyunmin Kim [00:19:17]:

I know. My students are gonna kill me for that one. But, yeah, establishing tradition and and real culture, like a courtyards culture is, I think, what I'm looking to do now. So I guess right now is just assessing the needs of our students, and I don't mean the needs educationally. They got enough education going for them. I am not trying to, like, school them anymore, but How can I educate them in other ways, socially, right, culturally, just athletically? And our students just love sports. UMD is a great school in regards to Sports. We have great intramurals.

Hyunmin Kim [00:19:45]:

So I think something that we're trying to establish is a ResLife Soccer League or football for other people in the world, but, like, kind of just Setting a precedent for what it means to live at the courtyard because we do have primarily upperclassmen, and we have been known to be called the retirement community and which is fine. Our on call structure is great because they don't cause us as much problems, but it's that stigma. Upperclassmen don't care about ResLife. They don't wanna do anything. And I think How to embrace that apathy and make them care, but not care enough, but care enough to where they wanna do it. So establishing that culture of upperclassmen, I think, is What we're really looking to do, setting up legacy too. So our student recruitment process is gonna start very soon, so finding younger RAs and, like, obviously, I wouldn't discriminate based on age, but I think I have a little bit of a goal of trying to get a bit younger faces, so maybe sophomores, maybe juniors, where they can do 1, 2 years, not just 1 year and they're out, but, like, one, years 3 years even so that we can kind of set that legacy, set that tradition, set that precedent so we can kinda just keep building back. And we'll keep building now that that lockdown period has been over, but setting culture, setting legacy, setting a precedent as what it's like to live at Courtyards.

Hyunmin Kim [00:20:50]:

This is my next 90 day journey.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:51]:

You also mentioned something really important with the social media aspects, whether it be on a specific platform or not, which is just kind of trying to meet our students where they're at, which which has been a mission of student affairs professionals since the inception of the field. But I think what that means now for Gen zers is kind of embracing that Gen z humor that we see that some of us understand very well and some of us don't understand at all, but that Gen z humor is also relatable. And then balancing that line of we are still your university that's here to develop your student journey. And we know this research from millennials, but millennials hated it when their university was on Instagram and Facebook. And so it's also important to recognize that maybe that's how Gen z is engaging, but that's not how they wanna hear from us. So it it's kind of this fine balance of how we find it.

Hyunmin Kim [00:21:36]:

No. I think that's a really good point. It's like, how do we approach them? Because Gen Z is a little dark. They're a lot darker than, I think millennials, then they're very grind mindset heavy, but also, like, very, like, dark humor. So, obviously, it doesn't land well professionally Most of the time because you really can't say it in a professional setting. But I think finding that nuance of how to approach Gen z on social media has been An ongoing struggle with me because for us to really meet Gen z where they are, we do have to forego a lot of our preexisting notions of what it means to be a university account on social media. And fair enough, I think we're just scared of what the backlash is gonna be if we do start to adapt a little bit. Are we trying to be too hip? Like, Are we forcing it, or are we just unhinged, and are we offending people? And I think rightfully so, they stopped my idea, but I think it's our job also to try to figure out how we should modernize And meet them where they are or at least try to meet them where they are.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:27]:

It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Christopher Lewis [00:22:34]:

Thanks, Jill. Really excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a lot going on in NASPA. One of the things that I wanted to share today was a statement that NASPA put out just recently, the DACA ruling from the Southern District of Texas. If you didn't see that in your email, I am going to read it to you today to make sure that you are aware of NASPA's stance. A second ruling was issued in the middle of September by judge Andrew Hanon of the Southern District of Texas On the revised deferred action for childhood arrivals or DACA that sets up a likely return of DACA to the Supreme Court. Judge Hannon's decision reiterating his initial position that the program is unconstitutional signals a continued legal battle And holds in place a block on new recipients from applying, limiting the program's protections to current Recipients only. The Department of Homeland Security issued a final rule on DACA that should have gone into full effect on October 31, 2022. However, while an injunction from the US District Court for the Southern District of Texas remains in effect, DHS is prohibited from Granting initial DACA requests and related employment authorizations under the final rule.

Christopher Lewis [00:23:57]:

The political gamesmanship involved and the ongoing legal And legislative attacks on the DACA program continues the ambiguity experienced by an estimated 400,000 undocumented immigrants in higher education. NASPA supports the possibilities created by the DACA program, which provides educational and career pathways for immigrant students, faculty, and staff and creates a more robust and inclusive higher education community. We wish to amplify advocacy efforts by experts and organizations such as the President's Alliance on Higher Education and Immigration and the American Immigration Council Who are supporting students and advocating for permanent comprehensive legislative solutions. Reform is possible, full. Demonstrated by the introduction in this congress of the Bipartisan Dignity Act and the American Dream and Promise Act. Consult NASPA's position for immigration policy and higher education on the NASPA website for resources on advocating For a permanent solution with your lawmakers on the hill. We also encourage our members to download your state data 1 pager And the higher education immigration portal to develop evidence based talking points. You can go to the higher education immigration portal by going to to the following web address, higher ed immigration portal, all one word, .org.

Christopher Lewis [00:25:25]:

There's lots of deadlines coming up For the NASPA annual conference in Seattle, which is coming up over the next few months, and you wanna make sure that you're watching your email for those dates. One of the dates to keep in mind is November 3rd. That is the date that you do have to put in any request for non NASPA sponsored events, including events that might be from your own institution or from other organizations that you're a part of. So if you are planning to have a meeting or reception that you haven't put in yet, make sure to put that in soon. Also, watch in early October for the housing information for the conference. You know that those tend to fill up quickly, So you wanna make sure that you get your housing request in as soon as possible. And if you haven't registered yet, now is a great time. It's gonna be a great conference with tons of programs and a great way to reconnect and come back together To celebrate everything that is NASPA and everything that is higher education in student affairs.

Christopher Lewis [00:26:33]:

Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So We are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able To get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself Where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself In that knowledge community, I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to Think beyond what's available right now to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association because through doing that, all of us are stronger and The association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:58]:

Producer Chris, thank you so much for your wisdom always in the NASPA world segment. We really appreciate you continuing to keep us updated on what's happening in and around NASPA. And, Hinnam, we've reached to our lightning round. So I've got 7 questions for you to answer in about 90 seconds. Here we go. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, What would your entrance music be?

Hyunmin Kim [00:28:20]:

Requiem by Mozart.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:21]:

Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up?

Hyunmin Kim [00:28:25]:

A paleontologist.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:27]:

Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Hyunmin Kim [00:28:29]:

It'd be Hady Fultz at Kennesaw State University.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:33]:

Number 4, your essential student affairs read.

Hyunmin Kim [00:28:36]:

Rainbow Fish, I don't know.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:38]:

Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic.

Hyunmin Kim [00:28:41]:

How I Met Your Mother.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:42]:

Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last fear.

Hyunmin Kim [00:28:46]:

The Daebak Show podcast with Eric Nam.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:48]:

And finally, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional?

Hyunmin Kim [00:28:52]:

The listeners. Hi. Thank you for listening.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:54]:

Alright, Hyunmin. You've made it to the end of our show. You've done an amazing job telling your 90 day transition story. Thank you so much. If listeners would like to reach you after the episode comes out, how can they find you?

Hyunmin Kim [00:29:05]:

My messages on LinkedIn are always open. I'm always open to connect with people. You guys can just type in Hyunmin Kim at the Courthouse University of Maryland. I should pop up. There's a picture of me smiling awkwardly because that's what I do. Or you can email me at h kim atcocm.com, and I'll get back to you.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:21]:

Hyunmin, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today.

Hyunmin Kim [00:29:24]:

Thank you for having me. I had so much fun.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:27]:

This has been an episode of SA voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible well because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at thesis@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and please like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:08]:

This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill l Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by diversity and the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this episode of "Student Affairs Voices from the Field," Dr. Kevin Kruger, President of NASPA, discusses his upcoming retirement and the transitions in student affairs. Dr. Kruger reflects on his 30-year journey at NASPA and the reasons behind his decision to step down as president. He emphasizes the importance of retiring on his own terms and while still making meaningful contributions to the field. Dr. Kruger also discusses the challenges and opportunities facing student affairs professionals, including the need to close attainment gaps for underrepresented students and navigate financial pressures on higher education institutions.

He highlights the importance of staying intellectually engaged in retirement and shares his interests in history and leadership. Dr. Kruger also expresses his hope for NASPA's continued role in supporting student affairs professionals and advocating for the value of their work in higher education. He discusses some of the initiatives and partnerships NASPA has undertaken during his tenure, including the Center for First Generation Student Success and efforts to secure external resources to benefit NASPA members.

Dr. Kruger concludes with gratitude for the privilege of working in the field of student affairs and the incredible people and teams he has had the opportunity to work with during his career. He reflects on his love for the work he has done and the positive changes he has witnessed in student affairs over the years.

Dr. Kruger's unwavering dedication to NASPA and his desire to leave a lasting legacy have guided his decision-making process, ensuring a smooth transition for the organization as it enters its next chapter.

Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!

Transcript

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]:

Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season nine on transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your essay Voices from the Field, host today on SA Voices, it's truly my pleasure to welcome back Dr. Kevin Krueger, president of NASPA, to this season of Transitions. We've introduced Kevin a couple of times before. He's our only three peak guest on the podcast, so I'm not going to read his bio again, but just know that this is probably the last time we're going to have Dr. Kruger on the podcast as he has announced his own major transition. I really hope you enjoyed this episode, Kevin. We're so glad to have you back on SA Voices.

Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:00:50]:

I'm super thrilled to be here, and I understand I'm the only person so far who has had three podcasts with you all. So it's exciting to be doing my number third podcast.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:00]:

Yes, you are the only three-pete, so far in the history of the show. There's a couple two Peters that we've got, but we're so glad to have you on for the season on Transitions. And I think this was actually a really apt theme given everything that's going on for you personally and for NASPA. So for those who have not yet read their NASPA email, kevin has announced a really, really big transition, which is coming very soon. And Kevin, do you want to tell us what that is?

Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:01:24]:

Yeah, sure. So I've made the decision to step down in my role as President of NASPA. There's some sort of timing around that that made sense for me. My contract ends this March of 24, and June 30 of 24 will be my 30 year anniversary of working at NASPA. So it made sense to lots of different personal ways as well as some professional ways to use that as an opportunity to open up a transition for NASPA. So me being here for 30 years and being serving as president for the last twelve, I think, creates a really unique opportunity for some new leadership of a great organization like NASPA that is a huge transition. And some of this is personal. Right. I've had a philosophy about my career for a long time and talking to people who have retired before me. And not to be kind of cute or clever about it, but I wanted to retire on my terms and when I thought I was doing my best work, when I was declining. Because there's a natural cognitive decline that occurs when you age. And so it was important to me to kind of do this in a time when I was still doing what I think is my best work and not to do it at a time when people are wondering, like, when is he going to go? Isn't it time. So that was important to me. So I've given a lot of thought to this over the last several years about what the best time was. And to be honest, I might have done it a little earlier, but the Pandemic, of course, created some serious organizational challenges for every association and business in the world. And so it was also important to me that I leave NASPA in the best possible financial position coming out of the Pandemic. And so I've been spending the last three years with my team trying to find out what the new kind of normal is for NASPA as an organization in terms of membership and programs and relationships with outside entities. And I feel like at this point, in a pretty good place, we've come out of the Pandemic in a very, very strong position. And so I feel like I'm able to hand off this organization to someone else who have a new vision in not having to worry about finance and organizational structure in the early goings of their term.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:14]:

That's a gift.

Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:03:15]:

Yeah. I've thought a lot about sort of legacy and what's next. And Gwen was executive director. A lot of folks who knew Gwen and were around Gwen talked about Gwen being the right person at the right time when she came in and what she brought to NASPA. And I think in some ways I think of myself in the sort of same place. My strengths played very well to the opportunities that were presented when I came into NASPA as the President. And I think while I could continue to do that work, I think it's a great time for someone else to put their brand of leadership and vision on this great association and great profession. We've gone through a lot of transition over the time I've been here in twelve years. I mean, here's just a couple of markers. When I started as president, I think we had about 17 staff. We now have 95 staff. And that's in twelve years. That's a tremendous amount of growth. That's due to lots of different things. But clearly, I think my tenure at NASPE as the President will be a period of taking advantage of the opportunities that student affairs had, which is to expand its portfolio and its influence on campus. In a lot of ways, NASPE has been alongside the field in that way. And so I think that the next phase of NASA may not have that same kind of growth but will build off of where we are right now today as a profession and the challenges that we're facing. Right. So I think that's important as well. Last thing I would say is that I'm very cognizant of the fact that I have one of the best jobs in higher education and it's an enormous privilege to have that. And I also feel like it's such a good job that someone else should have a chance to do it. And so if I would work into my 70s, which people do yeah. I would just not create that opportunity for someone else to have their shot at this kind of really incredible job and opportunity. And I'll say something else that sort of doesn't preclude anybody from applying for this job. And by the way, I'm not involved in the search at all, nor should I be. But I think student affairs as one of the most, if not the most diverse sectors of the higher education world or the academy, I think that I have been able to lead with some integrity as a white male in this space. But I think that we need the next leader should represent who the field is demographically in a more significant way. And so I think it's time for a woman or a person of color or a woman of color to lead NASPA because I think that's important that we reflect who our field is. And the times have changed. And so I think that that is I really want to open up the opportunities for all kinds of new leadership that can come into NASPA. And so I give a lot of thought to that as well. As a person with enormous privilege as a white man who has had great opportunities that have come my way, I think it's time to step aside and let new leadership come into the space.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:42]:

That's a lot of intentionality behind the why retire and why now? Questions. I'm wondering if you have advice for others who are considering that type of transition on how to identify that time that's not necessarily financially motivated. And I understand that that is probably the number one factor in determining when someone can successfully retire is that hopeful number or magic number, whatever they call it. The rule of 24, I think. Rule of 25 in your bank account. And that feels very unattainable to me. And I know a lot of other student affairs professionals, but let's pretend the financial piece is not in the picture. What are those factors that really led you to this space?

Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:06:17]:

Yeah, I think for me, this kind of job is all encompassing. It's a seven days a week. It's not 24 hours. But I mean, you're never not on this job. I'll give you a quick anecdote. We were I was on vacation and with my wife, something big happened in the United States. It was a terrible incident and had a racially motivated but it wasn't a higher ed incident. And so I knew that right away that I had to mark to my team and we were going to say something to our members about this incident. And in the middle of my vacation and my wife, who was not a higher ed person, she's in the sports broadcasting business, she was like, Why are we even commenting? And this has nothing to do with higher ed. I'm like, Because it matters to our students. It matters to the people in our field, and it doesn't matter that I'm on vacation. This is what you do. So my point of the story is that there's an exhaustion that just occurs when you're in a senior leadership role like this. That is part of the reason I've thought about retired hiring, because I just came back from a trip overseas, which is great, but I spend the first two, 3 hours of every day, even on vacation online doing work, because that's the nature of this job. And anybody in these kind of jobs does this. I'm not the only person that does this. Vice President affairs do this. AVPs do this. Directors do this. Lots of people do this. But after doing it for so long, I feel like it's time to step away and do something else. I'm also very thoughtful about this notion of passages, and your theme about transitions fits for me. It's a time in my life when I want to spend more time doing things that are personally renewing and a little less on the professional side. But I will tell you, the dilemma is we know that from people who study aging and people who are in this life transition space, that happiness is also tied to staying intellectually engaged. How do you step away from this but still do something that has meaning and that still engages me professionally and where I can also still give back where I have something to offer. So I've spent the last five, six years not just thinking about where I want to retire and in what place I want to retire and what my hobbies might be. But I've spent time actually literally interviewing people I know who have retired and asking them, what worked? What's working? What do you wish you had done more of? And lots of different approaches that people have had at this transition. So I was just given a lot of thought to basically have been a student of retirement. Yeah, the money part, of course, is a piece of it, but for me, it's more about what is the next phase of your life? What do you want it to look like? And I remember listening to someone was talking about retirement since maybe seven or eight years ago, and they were saying, when they ask people, Retire, what are you going to do? And they say, Well, I want to travel. And they would press a little further and say, well, how many trips are you going to take in that year? I'm like, maybe one or two trips. All right, 52 weeks. Let's just say you take two, two week vacations. What are you going to do for the other 48? Eight weeks? And I think that's an important thing to think about, right? Because yeah, sure. Do I want to travel? Of course. I love traveling. I have the privilege to have some resources to allow me to travel. But what am I going to do when I'm not traveling. So you have to think about a life that has meaning and richness to it, that goes beyond just going to London or Ireland for a two week vacation. And that's what I've given a lot of thought to. So where does that meaning come and what is it, and how do I want to spend my know? So I will be somebody, I'll tell you sort of maybe this is a question you might have asked me, but I'll tell you, I'm going to be someone who won't disappear. So I'm going to try to find the right space between giving the person who takes the presidency of NASPA who has that job, all of the space they need to do the job without me sitting near them. But for me also to use over 45 years of higher education experience to offer some perspectives that I have about the work and about the field without the constraints, perhaps, of the position of president. I mean, I can say things post presidency that I can't say in the presidency. So I'm kind of looking forward to maybe exercising my voice a little bit in ways that are not in the way of NASPA or not in the way of the new president, but sort of might have some value for the folks that I know in the field who are doing the work. So that's something I've given a lot of thought to, but I don't want another full time job. I've had people come to me and say, well, do you want to run this organization or you want to do this? No, I already have a great job, a great full time job. I'm not looking for another one. But I think it is important for me to find some spaces where I can stay intellectually engaged. I can't imagine a life where I don't think about higher education or I don't think about the work and think about how we can continue to serve our students.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:18]:

I think the intellectually engaged component is so critical. I will wish my father a happy birthday. We're recording on his birthday today, and he is deep into his retirement life as well. And one of the things that both he and my mom talk about is that retirement doesn't mean you're done. It means that you get the freedom to do what you want to do. And they take classes at the university nearby. They go to lectures at their local art museum. They're huge theater buffs. They're deeply intellectually curious readers, and that intellectual engagement. They're also in very excellent physical health. But for the ages that they are, they don't look or act like people typically would expect them to at those ages. And I think that is truly because of that ongoing intellectual curiosity and also staying socially engaged and not just sitting around existing. You're working to live in a different way. I totally get that.

Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:11:07]:

Yeah. Health and money are the two big variables about retirement, some of which you have control over, some of which you don't. Right. So there's a gift if you're physically healthy. So far I am. But this notion of there's actually an organization that calls it so this is not my language, but of your encore career of what are you going to do? Post the work that you have now, where making money isn't necessarily the most important thing. Right. So when I talk to the people I know who are still engaged, some of whom you know, who are retired in the field but are still doing work, they're doing it because the love of the work rather than the necessity of the work, and they're not in the kind of the drive that we would necessarily have. So I think that gives you some opportunities to be creative and innovative in the way you want to live your life.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:47]:

So I think I'm hearing blogger in your future.

Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:11:50]:

No, not blogger. I do think I want to write, though. I enjoy writing. I've always been a writer. This job has forced me to write in certain kinds of ways. But I think I'll think about I haven't quite figured out where and how in what way, but maybe I shouldn't say no blogger, but I mean, that's some kind of writing that would allow me to reflect on what's happening in higher education from a different seat. So I think that's part of it and some of it maybe not necessarily outward facing, might be just more inward facing. So I've always been intellectually curious. You talked about your parents being intellectual, and I've always been that way. And many of the people listening to this well, have heard me speak before. So you know that I spend a couple of hours every day reading. And right now I read mostly higher ed stuff. I mean, that's just the nature of it. But I have a lot of intellectual curiosity about other things in our world. Higher education is one of them. But when I go into a bookstore, which is kind of anachronistic theme right now, but Barnes and Noble still exists, when I go in Go bookstore, I'm just struck by how much stuff I want to read. I just walk through the nonfiction section. I'm like, I want to know more about that. I'd love to know more about that. I'd love to know more about that. And I think that that will be part of my journey, will be also be just continuing my lifelong education about lots of things that want to know more about. And some of that has nothing to do with higher education. So I think one of the things I'm most excited about is being able to explore some of my own intellectual interests that aren't higher ed oriented, where now I don't have the time to do that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:06]:

Do you mind sharing what those are.

Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:13:07]:

Strong ones for me. I was a European history major in college. So history has always been a part of my kind of curiosity. And so I'm very, very drawn to the lessons that we can learn from understanding history, and particularly sort of in geopolitical sense. So as we think about where our world is today, a lot of that has roots in history. And so there's more of that kind of analysis that I'm interested in understanding just as I try to make sense of this complicated world we live in. So that's one of them, for sure. The other one is my second job in the field was running the leadership program at the University of Maryland. And I don't know how that came about. I kind of stumbled into it to some degree. But I understood very quickly that I had a really huge interest in understanding how people I've been very introspective about myself, my own leadership style over the years. And so I'm fascinated with reading about how people are successful in organizations. And so that's another place where I've spent some time as well thinking about.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:58]:

All of the things you're excited about for the future in your own world, in your own life. You also mentioned kind of excitement for the field as well. So I'm just wondering if you have any future wishes for where NASA will go next.

Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:14:10]:

Well, I think that student affairs is at a little bit of a nexus right now. So I think post pandemic, there's elements of the work that we do that have been elevated in some important ways. And then I think, as we think about some of the really serious challenges that institutions face around addressing what I consider to be the most important priority for higher education, and that is, how do we close attainment gaps for low income students, first generation students, students of color in particular, black students, Latinx students, some portions of the API community, indigenous students. These things have been around for decades, these attainment gaps. And there seems to be a lot of energy in higher ed now about addressing some of these issues. We call it now student success. And I think student affairs is at the table for that conversation with its economic colleagues. I think that's great. So I see a lot of really high priority areas where student affairs and the value of his work is recognized. At the same time, the financial pressures facing higher education are enormous and financial challenges are coming to almost every institution in the country, and some of that will affect student affairs. So how do we do our best? Work is work that is so important for our society at a time when financial structures are being challenged. I'll give an example without naming the institution. So this institution, maybe seven or eight years ago, understanding this sort of challenge around attainment issues and student success created a Student success center and hired a team of student success coaches. It's a strategy that works, has been proven to work very effectively, particularly with some of these populations that I'm talking about. That particular institution is one that's in a part of the country that's experiencing enrollment challenges and demographic challenges. And so they had some budget challenges and one of the first moves they made was to fire almost all those student success coaches. It probably seemed like it was a more recent ad. They didn't want to cut an academic program. The challenge that college presidents and boards are facing today. But that very decision works against the goals that the institutions have about increasing enrollment for low income, first gen students of color. And so I think that these are the kind of really tough decisions that institutions have to make. And sometimes student affairs is going to be negatively affected by that. And so when I get in front of an audience of student affairs folks, I talk about this sort of dual challenge, the work and the money, the resources. And everybody's asked the same question, well, how do we do this? How do we do this? So NASPA, this is a long answer to a short question. So I think NASPA has to be part of helping institutions and student affairs professionals guide them through how you can maneuver these dual challenges. It's not easy, right? And I think we need examples of institutions have done this effectively and how they have reorganized or reoriented the resources to address some of these challenges and still do the good work where they've had to make tough decisions about doing a little less of this and a little bit more of that. And so I think NASPA has always been sort of shoulder to shoulder with our field in helping the field sort out how to address some of these challenges. And there's no simple answer to this, but I can think of examples. I was at a program that we ran summer before last. And so I have said this in some of my speeches. I've said that student affairs is going to have to make the difficult choice to move resources to the students who need us the most and away from students who don't need us as much. Okay? So there are students who are highly privileged economically and perhaps for other reasons as well that simply don't need almost any support in their journey through college and they will thrive. And there are others who have enormous barriers facing their progress. So higher education, which was built on serving the elite, we've always been sort of tilted sometimes to serving population of students, sometimes who don't actually need the services we're in, the support we're providing, can we shift that to a place where we're providing more resources for students who need us more? Simple thing to say. So at this meeting, one vice president of student affairs said, we did this. And they talked about the things that they did to make that difficult change. And this person shared some of those examples. And then at the break, after I was done with this particular session, it was like a crowd gathered around this vice president who's like, tell us how you did this. That's the NASPA story. Okay, so the NASPA story is, how do we find these examples and help others think about strategies to get there? So that's what I hope for NASPA. And I think that to some extent, I think that I would also say that the future for NASPA and NASPA's role is the same one that existed for my tenure here. And that is that the work that we do with students, I think is enormously important and sometimes isn't valued in the same way by the academy. And so I have spent twelve years getting in front of presidents, chief business officers, admissions officers, procurement officers, facilities people. I've been on a tour of higher education to try to lift the understanding of the value of what we do, not for our own sake, but because I believe it's important, because I believe it makes a difference. And I believe that the best institutions have figured out a way to marry this curricular academic world with a rich, out of class, cocurricular, whatever you want to call it, world. And that those institutions have created that secret sauce that allows students to thrive. And I think sometimes people just don't understand what we do, and it seems like wasted resources. So I think the next phase and aspect is a continuation of taking advantage of the megaphone that we have to talk about why what we do is important, why it exists, and what makes this so unique that it's worth investing in the resources.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:26]:

I'd like to take a moment to talk about legacy a little bit. And I'm just wondering if there's anything in your tenure at NASPA and you came up from a mid level position into the presidency over a period of time, but anything in particular that you're extremely proud of or a program or service or an idea that you were on the team of leading that you feel like has really changed the profession positively?

Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:19:47]:

First of all, and I don't say this casually, my legacy is the profession's legacy. It's the team that I've worked with. I've been gifted to work with unbelievably talented people at NASPA and still do. So I think I never have thought about it as my legacy as much as helping student affairs as a field move in directions that are in the best interest of serving our students. So I can give you a couple of examples. I think I'm enormously proud of the work that we're doing with the center for First Generation Student Success, working with over 300 institutions now to lift up first generation status and student as an asset for campuses and how we can help campuses think about their policies and their programs and the way they support students in order to increase attainment for those for first generation students. A highly intersectional population, right? Of we're disproportionately low income and of color. It's personal for me. I was a first generation student myself, and so obviously I'm a long ways away from those challenges with the enormous privilege I have in my life. But I can speak to those issues and I know that that's important for us to pay attention to. Enormously proud of the work we've done in lifting up health, safety and well being initiatives on college campuses over the last ten years. Something that now is sort of a given in our conversation about the work that we do about the work we do around well being and mental health and sexual violence and a variety of other components. But that wasn't necessarily a given 15 years ago. And so I think the work that our team has done in the health safety wellbeing space is enormously important, not just for helping student affairs folks, but also for guiding the academy forward in those areas. I think that those are two that really stand out. I think when I became president, I said to my team at the time, if the educational philanthropic community doesn't want to fund the work that we are about in student affairs, that says a lot about how the world views student affairs. And so part of my priority also has been to engage the educational philanthropic community in important ways to support initiatives that are serving students through the work we do in student success and student affairs. And we've been successful at that. We are one of the three coordinators of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation's post secondary education initiatives. We coordinate the advising reform movement in higher education through the Gates Foundation. We've done incredible work with Alumina foundation. Strada Cresky. I mean, there's so many folks who are interested in funding the work that we do to serve our campuses and our students. And I think that is also something I'm extremely proud of. In the depth of the pandemic, everybody had to shift to online work, right? We all did that immediately and right away, myself and our team was like, well, I wonder who's doing it the best? What are some really good examples of how we can lift up examples of how campuses have pivoted so quickly to provide outstanding service and support to students? And so we went to the Gates Foundation, said, hey, we have this idea, would you be willing to fund it? Yes. And so that borne this sort of project where we actually gave money to campuses, to twelve campuses who were doing exemplary work in providing online student services. But that comes about through a relationship you can have with the educational philanthropic community. And so that's something I'm really proud of. And our team has been very successful in bringing in resources, external resources, which has also. As an aside, allowed us, for example, to not raise individual membership dues for almost ten years. Something that we don't really talk a lot about, but we kept our membership dues kind of flat. And we were able to do that because we're able to bring external resources to the organization, which allowed us to serve our members in as cost effective ways as possible. Registration fees for conferences. We're probably, if you list 20 organizations at the bottom in terms of registration fees, they're still high. But we've been able to do that because we have been successful in seeking external resources. So I think those are some things that I think provide some real support going forward. Another thing I'd mention, though, is NASPA has been a very entrepreneurial organization. The Placement Exchange is a good example of that, which now is virtual. But at the time when we partnered with a Kuoi in that we created a new vision for how we can bring together multiple associations together. The idea of hiring the best possible people in our field, that was kind of a revolutionary idea at the time. Now everybody sort of knows about the Placement Exchange. That's something like that. We saw opportunities to serve populations that we hadn't been serving. So, for example, we have continued with a partnership. Initially, from the University of Louisville, we created the Military Connected Student Conference, now the only place in higher education where people who work with veterans and military connected families and military connected students can come together to talk about how we can serve that population. So I think that the legacy is seeing places where there have been needs and then trying to create programs and resources and research and opportunities to serve those needs in ways that perhaps weren't around maybe ten or 15 years ago.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:15]:

Any final thoughts for the NASPA community on this transition?

Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:24:19]:

Well, it's not a thought. It's really gratitude. I mean, I have been unbelievably privileged to work in this field. I loved the work I did on campus, and I have loved the work I did at NASPA. And part of what I love about NASPA is really two things. One is I'm going to say three, the belief in what we do, amazing people that I've gotten to meet over the last twelve years, just for sure. And then the incredible team of people that work at NASPA who are committed to this work and who wake up every day thinking about how we can serve our members and serve our students. So I have a lot of gratitude about just what an incredible opportunity that has been for me personally. And to have had a front row seat on the evolution of student affairs over the last 30 years. We're not what we were 30 years ago, and we're not where we were ten years ago. And so to be in this chair has been enormously privileged. And so I have enjoyed literally every single day I've come to work. Just leave you with that thought. I mean, very few people have a job where they come to work every day, and they love what they do every single day. And I've had that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:18]:

It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:24]:

Welcome back to the NASPA World. Really excited to be able to talk to you again today. There is a ton of things happening this fall that I know I want to make sure that all of you have the access to taking advantage of and you don't miss out on. One of the things that's coming up here in January of 2024 is the 2024 NASPA Symposium on Military Connected Students. This is an annual event, and in this event, it is running from January 30 to February 1 in Louisville, Kentucky. The Call for Programs deadline for this great event has been extended, and you have now until October 2 to be able to put in a proposal. You can showcase your expertise, research innovative ideas to people that are completely supportive of military connected students. So whether you have a comprehensive program, insightful research findings, or best practice to share, we definitely want to hear from you and have you submit a program for this amazing conference. If you don't have a program that you want to submit, you can also be a reviewer of the programs. And if you'd want to be a reviewer for the program, again, the deadline is October 2 as well. And you did get an email about this from NASPA, but if you didn't, you can also go to the 2024 NASPA Symposium on Military Connected Students website. On the NASPA website under events to be able to get more information. It's a brand new term, and that means that all of us have different goals, things that we're doing professionally, personally, to be able to extend our own learning as well as doing more to be able to connect with our students. One of the things that I always encourage people to think about is your own professional development. And one way to be able to grow and learn is through books. So this is a great time of year to be able to go to the NASPA Bookstore and be able to discover or rediscover the joy of reading. And as a special treat, the NASPA Bookstore is providing NASPA members with a remarkable 30% discount on their catalog of books spanning various subjects. So whether you're a devoted reader, an inquisitive learner, or searching for the perfect gift to a colleague, the NASPA Book Collection has something for everyone. So don't miss out. Use promo code Fall 23 at checkout. And that's all one word, Fall 23, to unlock this exclusive offer and enrich your reading experience. Another conference that's coming up in December, december 7 through the 9th in Washington, DC, is the 2023 NASPA Racial Equity and Social Change Conference. This was formally known as the Multicultural Institute. The NASPA Racial Equity and Social Change conference fosters dialogue on Equitable campuses. The shift to a racial equity framework amplifies the focus on dismantling racialized systems for broad benefit. This inaugural conference emphasizes content centered on promoting racial equity, equity leadership, institutionalizing justice and equity through organizational change, as well as creating a climate of care for staff and students. The program looks to have amazing program, amazing sessions, but one of the featured speakers that was just announced is Bettina Love, who is the William F. Russell professor at Teachers College of Columbia University. She's also a best selling author of We Want to Do More Than Survive in 2020, and the Kennedy Center in 2022 named her one of the next 50 leaders making the world more inspired, inclusive, and compassionate. Registration for the conference has an early registration deadline of October 6. So if you're ready to make plans to come to Washington, DC. For this upcoming conference in December, you definitely want to take advantage of that early deadline and jump in right away. Every week we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Because the association is as strong as its members and for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit, where do you want to give back? Each week. We're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in. That knowledge, community. I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:04]:

Chris, it's always great to hear from you on what's going on in and around NASPA. Kevin, we have reached our lightning round, and as our only three Pete guests, we have completely unique lightning round questions for you that our audience has never heard. So you're in for a ride.

Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:31:18]:

You ready? Ready.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:20]:

All right. Question number one the album or song you can listen to on repeat forever?

Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:31:25]:

Oh, wow. Ramble on by Led Zeppelin.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:28]:

Number two, what was your graduate degree or degrees in and did you use it in your job?

Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:31:34]:

I'm laughing because my graduate degree was in counseling and personnel services, basically a master's in PhD in Higher Ed student affairs. And yes, I have used it. I use it every day.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:44]:

Number three, your guilty pleasure book series.

Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:31:47]:

I love reading mysteries, so Harlan Cobin would be the one I would pull out. I've read every single one of his books.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:53]:

Number four, if someone visits your city, Washington, DC. What is the top tourist destination they have to see?

Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:31:59]:

The Madagascar cockroach exhibit in the Natural history museum.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:03]:

Number five, the best advice someone ever gave you?

Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:32:05]:

Gene Ward, Director of Housing at Southern Methodist University in 1982, when I was getting ready to leave go from being an area coordinator, and I applied for a job at the University of Maryland, and he said, I was really worried about that, I hadn't finished my work and I had more to do. And he said, Kevin, stick your finger in a glass of water and then pull it out and you see there's no hole left, is there? He said, Organizations will always adapt to you moving on. And that's how I feel today. That's perfect advice for the mind. NASPA, I will leave and ask will continue to live and thrive.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:31]:

Number six, any new podcast recommendations?

Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:32:34]:

Yeah, I just on my ride to North Carolina, listened to Scamanda, which is this staggering story about a woman who raised all this money going through her journey with cancer, and it turns out she never had cancer. It was just amazing.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:48]:

Oh, I'm adding that one immediately. And finally, number seven, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional?

Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:32:55]:

This is so many people that I would shout out to, but I have to really kind of come back to the people that have supported me in my life. My wife, Lisa Hansen, who was beside me through this entire journey of being national president. We started dating, actually, when I applied for the job, so she's been here with me the whole time and in some ways, in a weird way, my kids. My daughter just graduated from the University of Maryland and is working, and my son graduated in the Pandemic. And so I've had them both as a proud father, but also as sort of watching their journey through college in real time. And I think that's helped me be more effective in the work that I do.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:29]:

Well, Kevin, it's always a pleasure to have you on the show. Since you are going to be with NASPA just a little while longer, what's the best way for folks to get a hold of you?

Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:33:36]:

So you can always go to the website and find my email address, but I'll tell you what it is. It's KKR Uger Kruger@naspa.org. I answer every email personally, so if somebody finds anything I had to say here. Interesting. I want to expand on it. I'd love to have a dialogue with you about it. So just write me a note. It's easy to find me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:52]:

Well, thank you so much for your service to the profession and to NASPA over the years. And of course, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today.

Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:33:58]:

It's been great being with you. Jill, thank you.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:01]:

This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field, brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at savoices@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L. Craighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show. And please, like, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill L. Creighton Seth Me produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to Duke Kunshan University and the University of Michigan, Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Welcome back to SA Voices From the Field. In this episode, titled "Discovering Resilience: Clarissa Mae Calimbas' Story of Professional Transformation," we are joined by Clarissa Mae Calimbas, Assistant Director for Student Organizations at San Jose State University. Clarissa Mae takes us on a journey through her professional career, from her early days as a transfer student to her current role overseeing 350 student organizations. She shares her experiences of being terminated from her first professional position during the height of the pandemic, and how she found the strength to rebuild her professional confidence.

Through her story, Clarissa Mae reveals the importance of finding the right fit and staying true to one's values, even in the face of uncertainty. We also delve into the topic of transitions in Student Affairs, exploring the challenges faced by professionals and the various opportunities for growth and development.

Join us as we dive deep into Clarissa Mae's inspiring journey and gain valuable insights into navigating transitions, building resilience, and finding one's voice in the world of Student Affairs.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]:

Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season nine on transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your essay, Voices from the Field. Host

Welcome back to a new episode of SA voices where our Transitions guest today is Clarissa Mae Calimbas. Clarissa Mae is the assistant director for student organizations at San Jose State University, or SJSU. In her role, she oversees the recognition and compliance processes of 350 plus recognized student organizations. She did her undergrad at SJSU, where she majored in Child and Adolescent development and completed her master's in Educational leadership at Old Dominion University. Clarissa Mae is also a current first year doctoral student studying Educational Leadership at SJSU. Outside of work, Clarissa Mae enjoys going to Orange Theory Fitness and learning how to DJ. You can connect with her on Linkedin. You can find her on Twitter @_Clarissamae or on Instagram @_Clarissamae. Clarissa, welcome to the show.

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:01:14]:

Hi.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:15]:

How's it going for our listeners? Clarissa and I met, I think, two annual conferences ago, maybe two or three annual conferences ago now when we were doing some sort of I think it was a scavenger hunt for discord. Does that sound right?

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:01:27]:

Yeah, it was like a discord group.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:29]:

And I ended up finding you in person at the Apikc Social.

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:01:33]:

Yes. Now I'm starting to remember. Yeah, that tracks.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:35]:

We're glad to have you today to talk about your transitions in higher education. We always like to kick off our episodes by asking our guests how they got to their current seat.

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:01:44]:

That is such a good question. I've been really reflecting on this because this academic year is my fifth year as a professional, and I also currently work at my alma mater. So it's been exactly ten years since I first attended my current institution that I work at. How did I get there? I think I first came in as a transfer student. Didn't really like, there wasn't much for transfer students to get involved, and I kind of put myself out there because all my friends were out there, and then people took notice and were like, hey, you're good at this. You should do this field of student affairs. And they always told me, if you're going to go do this, you have to go away before you come back. And so I went to grad school across the country before coming back to my home state of California, worked at a couple institutions. Before I came into my current position, I've been in an interim role, and then I came back as a coordinator, and then just this past May, actually, last week was three months into my new role as an assistant director.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:49]:

Congratulations. That's a major, major thing to especially get that interim title taken off it's.

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:02:54]:

Been surreal to kind of been in two interim roles before coming back and being able to permanently be an employee.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:00]:

That interim space is one of the reasons I'm really excited to talk to you about your transitions on the show for this season. I think that interim space for people who have never been in it is a little bit nebulous. And so I'm wondering if you can talk about why you decided to take an interim position, as well as what it's like to transition into a space that, you know, is a bit ephemeral.

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:03:21]:

Yeah. So I had actually done my first interim appointment in 2017, and it was the first it was kind of my first paraprofessional job at the time. They had offered it to me as a way to prepare me before I went off to graduate school, and that is exactly what it did for me. And I finished my grad program, came back to my home state, worked at other institutions, and in 2021, I was actually terminated from my first position as a professional. And it was tough because it was like, at the peak of COVID and I wasn't sure if I was going to come back into student affairs. And so I took a job working as a sales associate at Orange Theory Fitness, where I would sell memberships and help set up the equipment for the coaches and whatnot. And another position at my current institution had opened up. A search had failed, so they had to move people around, and there was an opening, and they reached out to me because they knew, of course, it got terminated. She's searching, she's grinding it out. And they reached out to me and had offered me an interim appointment. And I work at one of the California state universities, so I work at one of the 23 campuses. When you're appointed an interim role, it's anywhere between four to six months. And I had just started at Orange Theory. I think I was like one or two weeks in when they called and were like, hey, we want you to come work for us. And I had actually interviewed for a job there and didn't get moved on as a final candidate. So for me, I had some animosity, but I was like, I have nothing to lose at this point. I needed the insurance, I needed the benefits, and it was a place that I was so familiar with, and I felt safe enough to kind of rebuild my confidence as a professional. And so I took the job, and I was also applying to other institutions for a permanent role. And so once I had landed a permanent role at another institution, I ended my interim appointment, and I worked at this other school for six months. And once they opened up the role for my first permanent position at the institution I'm at, I jumped at the opportunity to apply. So I was with institution B for six months. And then I moved back to Institution A, which is the institution I'm at now. And I was also told, hey, you've applied for this job you've interviewed. You deserve to be here. And I had done the work before and that was kind of like that common, like, we want you and I want you. So to be in that interim space is really scary because it's like for me, I felt like I was on a time crunch to apply, apply. But also I think for me it was a scary time, right. Because it's like you're not guaranteed permanency. You're not guaranteed the idea of, oh, that safety net of having a permanent job. And so being in that unknown professionally is just really scary. When your livelihood is on the line.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:10]:

You said something really important and very real for American student affairs professionals, which is when you don't have a job, you may not have health insurance. And that puts an interesting crunch on a job search that doesn't exist for professionals in many, many other parts of the world. So I think that puts a lot of pressure on these types of transitions, more so than you might see other places. So I actually want to back up a little bit to the moment where you started to figure out how are you going to get on your feet after that first job came to an end and you ended up in a sales associate position. So just not necessarily aligned with your training and your master's degree and things like that. So how did you make the determination that sales was the place that you wanted to get on your feet?

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:06:51]:

Yeah, so I was let go in early May and I used all of June. I wasn't going to apply. I was just going to really sit and process and also going back to the whole thing about health and the benefits. I was told your benefits were going to end like that end of the month in May. So I took advantage and booked all my appointments to make sure that I was going to use it until I was covered that whole like two or three months. When I didn't have healthcare benefits or insurance, I knew I could go into sales. And I chose Orange Theory specifically because I was a member of the studio. And so I kind of had always had so much respect for the people that worked at the front desk. I've had a lot of respect for some of the coaches. Some of the coaches were actually student affairs professionals. Like this was their side hustle. And I'd always joked around like, hey, I want to be a coach one day. Maybe this will be my side hustle. I'm currently in a doctoral program, so this Orange Theory side hustle for me is after the doctorate. But I knew I wanted to go into Sales because I knew the money was kind of there. I knew we were going to be paid on commission and it was biweekly, so I knew I would have some sort of security, like financial security and financial stability coming through until I could get fully on my feet and figure out everything else.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:11]:

So then you decided, okay, I'm going to head back into the land of higher education. Thought process did you go that? Yes, you were going to make that decision?

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:08:21]:

I wasn't sure if I was going to go back into higher ed. I just want to give a shout out to everyone in Apikc that who knew what was going on to me at the time. They were sending me job postings. They knew I was location bound. They were helping me with my resume, all the interview prep. As much as I thought my heart wasn't in it anymore, other people could see that I was really meant to be in the profession and I'm really meant to be in the field. And I think if I didn't have that community and that network, I for sure would have been out of the field by now. So I think it's so important when you're going through transitions, whether it's personal or professional, to really have that network and have that community of people that just hold you accountable.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:04]:

And so when you're thinking about the things that mentorship did for you and your support in this process, what are some of the best pieces of advice you got from mentors?

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:09:13]:

The best piece of advice that I had got from a mentor was that and I learned this the hard way, it was that my first job was not going to be my dream job. And I think I had had these rose colored glasses in the time that I was in that first position where I was like, oh my God, I'm actually a student affairs professional. It's all great and whatnot, and when that plug gets pulled, suddenly it's a wake up call. And I realized once someone pointed it out to me was I had seen it as a dream job, but that wasn't the case based on how I was being treated, but also just how much I was putting in and not really seeing the payoff there. I think one of my favorite pieces of advice was that all of this happening to me was just building character in the end. It's not the end for me, but I think had I gone through this later on in my life, I probably would have left the field and not looked back. And I think to be able to go through this so early in my professional career, like first job, I think it's built that grit and resiliency that they don't really teach you in grad programs. And that's also the first time where I really learned what Fit meant and how important and how it's okay to really put into perspective what is important to you, like what are your values and whatnot? Because I felt like I lost so much of my values and what mattered to me in that first position, just trying to fit in and trying to be the perfect employee that in the end it didn't work out and who ultimately lost it was me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:45]:

And I always like to be careful about the word fit because how it can be weaponized to marginalize people. But what I'm hearing you say is there was a values misalignment between what you were hoping to do and what the institution maybe was looking for.

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:10:59]:

Yes, that was something hard to sit with. And I think one of the earliest red flags for me was watching the other color of people leave on my team. They all had left within the first 88 days of me starting in this role. And it's so easy to count because we were on a 90 day probation when you first get hired. And so every month since I had started in that role, someone had always left and it was always someone who was of color. And so when you're the only person of color and a predominantly white team working at a very marginalized serving institution, I felt like I had the worries of my students on my backs and trying to carry that and bring it to the table and advocate for them was tough.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:45]:

Then we are really talking about fit in that kind of coded, pushing out marginalized populations kind of way. And I think that's something that we need to remain conscious of in student affairs and really in all professions on how that can be used as a weaponized tool to further marginalize those who already struggle systemically to be included. So you've then decided that, yes, you are going to employ that grit for yourself and you're going to try again, you're going to reenter the field. You did this interim role, you took a second position after that. So how did you take that grit that you've self described as well as the things that you process to say yes to coming back into student affairs?

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:12:28]:

That was such a good question. I think after processing everything and the grit and that resilience, I think it's knowing that this is my own experience and no one has the same experience as me and the same thought process and being able to take that and bring it with me wherever I go. I used to be so ashamed to talk about what had happened to me and now I'm not afraid to speak up about it and talk about it and lead into how it's made me into a better professional now. It's helped me better understand every different things and different issues students go through. I feel like I came back with a thicker skin, which I think is so important to have in this field. And I think now coming back and feeling like I'm a little stronger, and I'm a little more. I have wisdom, and my opinions and my thoughts really matter. It's given me the opportunity to speak up more. I used to be so scared to speak up. I used to be so scared to talk about my ideas. But I think the experience of all these transitions and all of these experiences, good and bad, has just kind of made me into the person that I am now, where I'm a little more unapologetic now.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:36]:

As a professional, we always need women of color to be less apologetic.

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:13:39]:

Yeah. Period.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:41]:

So as you've grown into your career, now you're sitting in an Assistant Director seat. I believe you went from being a member of your team to being part of the leadership team in your department. Is that right?

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:13:50]:

I started in the office May 2022 as a coordinator, and then in May 2023, I started as the Assistant Director. So they treated it just like a typical search, where it was like the job posted and I applied and interviewed. And it is so hard and so scary to interview in front of your coworkers because they know you and they know your personality. And I think to be able to do that and get over that fear and to also be in this position I've been in this Assistant Director role for three months. And then just full context, our Director has just started last Thursday, so we have a brand new Director. We have an interim Associate Director, and a couple of openings on our team.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:36]:

Tell us about how you prepared to interview with people that you already know and who know you.

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:14:41]:

I think what carried me through in that preparation was I knew what was on the line because the previous role that I was doing, it was a coordinator for Student orgs role, and it's one person that oversees 350 student organizations. It's a lot of compliance work, and I feel like misunderstandings where no one really knows what you're doing. And the easiest way that I explain it to people is that, oh, I just look at spreadsheets and I grade canvas quizzes and I email people, but there's just a lot of behind the scenes that nobody really gets to see. And so I knew personally what my role consisted of as the coordinator, and I knew what the coordinator needs from the Assistant Director. And so I carried that thought process with me as I was preparing for the interview. Preparing for the presentation was like, if there's anyone that knows what this job is going to need, it's going to be me. And being a woman of color, where's the line between being cocky and being actually confident was something that I had struggled with, like preparing for the interview. And also the role that I'm currently in is also brand new. So I'm like the first person, so I feel like there's a lot of weight carried on in terms of, like, I have to perform a certain way. I said I would do XYZ Am I going to be able to do it? I don't have a coordinator underneath me, so I feel like I put a lot of pressure on myself to really be great, but also not let anyone down on my team.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:12]:

And you prevailed, so your strategy was a good one.

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:16:15]:

Yes, and I'm surprised it worked. Why? I think because of just feeling like I'm always misunderstood and no one really kind of understanding my thought process and how I process things. And so I think to be able to articulate it in a way where people actually understood it in this one moment in this presentation that I had to give for my interview, where in my head, I feel like I'm fighting for my life. I will never forget when I came back to work the next day, there was a lot of buzz with the team. I didn't know you could be this confident. I didn't know you can bring it like that. I think a lot of the times people just kind of see me as really laid back and kind of quiet and minding my business. And I think the person they saw in that interview was someone who doesn't really show out that way on a daily basis.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:03]:

And now that you've occupied the role for a couple of months, how has that changed the way you approach your team and the work?

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:17:10]:

It was interesting because they consider it a promotion, which I understand. For me, the way that I approach my work has shifted significantly because I'm also in the doctoral program. So I'm balancing work, I'm balancing school, which is really exciting. But I remember being offered the job, and I was told there's going to be some dynamics that change, and I didn't understand that at the time. Sometimes I feel like I'm excluded from my coworkers. Now they're on the coordinator level and I'm on the assistant director level. And in our office, if you're an assistant director or an associate director or the director, you're considered the leadership team. And I understand that that is part of the process of being a leader. It's hard. I'm such a people person, and so being excluded kind of hurts sometimes. But now I'm beginning to understand that that's okay because I have other besties and other friends and partners across campus who are in the same parallel position as me, where it's like we also are on leadership teams for our offices, and we can't just vent down, and so we just vent across to each other.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:18]:

That's one of the most interesting things about coming into mid level leadership, is that you're a part of many teams, a junior member of some teams, you're a senior member of other teams, you're in the middle of some teams. And that really changes the way that we process and talk about information, I think, either consciously or subconsciously.

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:18:33]:

I think since joining the leadership team at work, I've definitely been a little more conscious about what I share and what I open up to the team in terms of operations or what's going on with other coworkers, just because I now understand that some things are better kept private. Or it's like, I would rather you find out from senior leadership than from me because I'm still brand new.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:57]:

So kind of looking at the culmination of all the transitions you've had over the last couple of years, what would you like to say to past Clarissa when these transitions all began?

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:19:07]:

Oh, my God. I would tell Past Clarissa that everything you're going through, it's not the end of the world. You're going to be okay. Take a deep breath. I feel like, at the time, I thought it was the end of the world. I thought it was the end of my professional reputation, and I thought no one was going to want to hire me because I just had so much trauma. Like, I was carrying that with me professionally. And I think I would tell Past Clarissa, too, that everything you want is on the other side of fear. You just have to be able to get over it, whether that's going to therapy, whether that's just kind of facing it head on. There's good people out there that will always be in your corner and support you. And I know this process of transition and coping and processing, it's not possible to do this all alone. And I'm just so thankful that so many people just had my back and really pushed me to, like, hey, you need to get uncomfortable. You're wasting your own potential by not going after this job, by not coming back into the field.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:10]:

That is such a word. Everything you want is on the other side of fear. Good nugget, Clarissa.

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:20:15]:

Thanks.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:16]:

So let's look at it in the other direction, too. What do you want to tell future Clarissa two years from now Clarissa or three years from now?

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:20:22]:

I would love to tell her to just not stress, and I just say that very candidly because I'm going through a lot of health issues right now, and I know part of it is just all rooted in stress. And I would love to tell future Clarissa, like, hey, you made it through all this. Let's take care of ourselves now. And I think the most exciting thing that I would want to tell my future self is, like, you got everything you want because you worked hard for it, and don't ever let anyone undermine the work that you've put in to.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:53]:

Get to where you are and then thinking about your kind of holistic perspective as well. Is there anything that you would definitely want to repeat in terms of identifying how to transition successfully?

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:21:04]:

I think speaking about it is so important. I used to be so scared and so embarrassed to tell people, hey, I'm going to apply for this job. Or like, hey, I'm thinking about making the jump from this functional area to that functional area because I was so afraid of what people would think about me or think about, like, oh, I don't think you're making the right career choice. And I think if there's anyone that's going to know you best, it's yourself and your instinct and your gut. And I think as much as I say I've had good people that have supported me, a lot of it has also been my instinct. I knew I could do this work. I know that I'm good at this, and I think that's also carried me. So I think from a holistic approach and thinking about all these transitions, I think your instinct carries you through it. I think talking about it too to the people that you know would support you and keep it very candid and honest with you are the ones are the one thing, two things that I could say have helped me in the.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:03]:

Last four or five years and also thinking about this whole process. Is there anything you wished you would have done differently? You mentioned talking about it, but anything else?

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:22:10]:

I think what I wish I could have done differently, I wish COVID didn't happen. I graduated in 2019, so I had that fall semester in person and then 2020 to 2021, 2022, it's just a blur. And I just say that because I feel like it just took my prime years as a professional away. And so I've always been told that your first year to your fourth or fifth year is like your new professional years. And I felt the Pandemic really took my new professional years where I kind of only know things as remote and not really pre COVID. But I think the lessons that I learned through the Pandemic really helped. And going back to grit and resilience, if it wasn't for the Pandemic, it wouldn't have built all of these personality traits and these values for me. So it's kind of like good and bad.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:00]:

Also just state for the record that grit and resilience traits, oftentimes for women of color, come out of a system that wasn't built for us, and we have to figure out how to navigate that system. So I think it's awesome that you found yourself being able to build those traits. But I also would encourage and challenge anyone listening to the show today who has authority over a system to really look at how that system is built for people and not built for people. Because that's really the driving. Force behind real inclusion and real progressive deib for your organizations and all of the values that we talk about a lot and sometimes we struggle to operationalize.

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:23:39]:

I love that. That was great retweet.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:43]:

I'm completely off of Twitter now, or X or whatever the heck that it's called. I had enough. I think my account I still own my username because I don't want anyone else to have my username, but haven't been active in a little while.

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:23:55]:

Yeah, it's been tough with that whole change with X.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:58]:

More transitions.

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:24:00]:

Yes.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:00]:

Any final advice you'd like to give our listeners on their own transitions or wisdom from yours?

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:24:05]:

I think transitions can be such a beautiful thing. I think it's just how you look at it, because again, everything you want is on the other side of fear.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:13]:

It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:20]:

Welcome back to the NASPA World. Really excited to be able to talk to you again today. And there's a lot happening in NASPA. I know I say that every week, but it's true. So many opportunities to learn, to grow, to expand your horizon to the future that you have in front of you. And one of the things that is coming up in January january 24 to 27th in Atlanta, Georgia, is the 2024 NASPA Institute for Aspiring Vice Presidents for Student Affairs. We are currently seeking dedicated professionals to apply for the 2024 NASPA Institute for Aspiring Vice Presidents for Student Affairs. Make sure to block off a few minutes in your calendar as you look at the deadline that's coming up on October 15. This institute is a four day program for professionals considering or seeking to learn more about the Vice President for Student Affairs role. This application based program is an institute so unlike conferences where you may choose to participate or not in concurrent session, during this institute, all attendees will participate in the same cohort experience and are expected to engage fully in all aspects of the program. This is a powerful program that definitely prepares individuals to look at becoming a Vice President for Student Affairs. The ins, the outs, the positives, the negatives, everything in between, and you have a ton of great mentors that support you throughout the Institute and beyond. The institute faculty include claire Brody, Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs at Anna G. Mendez University jose Luis Riera, Vice President for Student Life at the University of Delaware pauline Dabrowski, Vice President for Student Affairs at Stonehill College. Sheila Higgs Burkhalter, Vice President for Student Affairs at Winthrop University brian Mitra, Vice President of Student Affairs and Enrollment Management at Queensboro Community College melissa Shivers, Senior Vice President for Student Life at the Ohio State University and Alvin Sturdavant, Vice Provost for Student Development at Seattle University. If you think you want to be a Vice President for Student Affairs in the future, I highly encourage you to consider this great opportunity. And just remember, the deadline for applying is October 15. Another great professional development opportunity that really falls into our last season of the podcast is the fifth European Conference for Student Affairs and Services. ASPA is partnering with Ayuka, which is. The European University College Association and Perodus College American Farm School as they all invite you to the fifth annual European Conference for Student Affairs and Services that's going to be held in Thessaloniki, Greece on November 9 through 11th. In a world where the availability, functionality and accessibility of technologies are growing exponentially and where new realities such as the metasphere appear, education providers need to reimagine their role in what is starting to be called the onlife world. Student affairs departments are well placed to support students in gaining invaluable experience, to get to know themselves better, and to grow and mature in this program. You can find out more about this program on the NASPO website. As you delve a little bit deeper, you're going to find that there are many different topics within this conference, including student affairs, staff preparation and professional development, career readiness and preparation for the future, mental health and well being and cultural skills and inclusive learning. The conference will definitely open your eyes to the broader world of student affairs outside of the United States and will open you to being able to consider perspectives that you may never have considered before. Highly encourage you to take a look at this conference and see if it's a right fit for you. Every week we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Because the association is as strong as its members and for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit, where do you want to give back? Each week. We're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in. That knowledge, community. I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:50]:

Chris, always appreciative of your work with the NASPA World segment, keeping our members updated on what's going on in and around the association. Clarissa, we have reached our lightning round, so I have seven questions for you in 90 seconds.

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:30:04]:

You ready to go oh, my God, yes.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:06]:

I promise you already know the answers. Okay, question one if you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:30:15]:

Probably the man by Taylor Swift.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:17]:

Number two, when you were five years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:30:20]:

A pediatrician.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:21]:

Number three, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:30:24]:

Her name is Dr. Sanja Daniels. She's the associate vice president for Campus Life at San Jose State University.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:30]:

Number four. Your Essential Student Affairs.

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:30:32]:

Read it's. The purple book from Anaspa. Asian Pacific Islanders. Knowledge, community understanding. I don't know the full title, but the Purple Book, that's what I call it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:43]:

Number five, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic.

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:30:46]:

This is gonna say so much about me, but Tiger King.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:50]:

Number six, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:30:54]:

It's a split between Call Her Daddy by Alex Cooper and the True Crime Podcast.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:59]:

And finally, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or?

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:31:02]:

Oh, that's a good question. I just want to shout out my partner, Joshua Cruz, for letting me use his setup. I just want to give a shout out to the team at San Jose State University and student involvement. And I just want to give a shout out to my family, my mom, my had, my sister for being super supportive of me being in the doctoral program and just for letting me be in student affairs.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:21]:

And I know everyone can't see Clarissa's setup that borrowing from her partner, but it is kind of an epic, twitch streamer kind of situation.

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:31:28]:

Yes.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:29]:

Got a lot of anime posters and giant professional microphones, so I hope that you're enjoying her audio quality today.

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:31:37]:

Yeah, apparently this is supposed to be, like, smooth and crispy, like a microphone quality.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:41]:

Clarissa, if people would like to reach you after the show, how can they find you?

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:31:44]:

I am on LinkedIn. Just look up Clarissa May. That's M-A-E Columbus. And then I'm on Twitter or X at Underscore Clarissa May. And then I'm on Instagram at two. Underscores Clarissa May. I think that's the only three social media platforms I use.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:02]:

Thank you so very much for sharing your voice with us today.

Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:32:05]:

Thank you. I had so much fun.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:08]:

This has been an episode of Essay Voices from the Field, brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at favoices@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L. Craighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show. And please, like, rate and review us on Apple podcasts, spotify or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill L. Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to Duke Kunshan University and the University of Michigan, Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this episode of "Student Affairs Voices from the Field," Dr. Jill Creighton, the host, welcomes Dr. Chicora Martin as the season premiere guest. They discuss transitions in higher education and leadership within NASPA (National Association of Student Personnel Administrators). Dr. Martin shares her personal journey into student affairs, highlighting her circuitous path from aspiring to be a judge to finding her passion in student affairs.

Dr. Martin praises the podcast for its role in bringing forward the student affairs profession and shares how her chance meeting with a graduate student reflects her commitment to mentorship. She emphasizes the importance of seizing opportunities, even if they seem serendipitous, and how her own journey into student affairs was influenced by unexpected connections and experiences.

Dr. Creighton and Dr. Martin reminisce about their first meeting at the University of Oregon, highlighting the interconnectedness of the student affairs profession and the smallness of the community, which can be both a benefit and a challenge, especially for newcomers and those from underrepresented backgrounds.

They delve into Dr. Martin's transition into her role as NASPA Board Chair, discussing the selection process and the responsibilities associated with it. Dr. Martin shares her approach to this role, focusing on community engagement and connecting with NASPA members to ensure that the organization remains member-centric.

The conversation then shifts to Dr. Martin's experiences with transitioning between different types of institutions and geographic locations. She emphasizes the importance of remaining open to learning and adapting one's experiences to fit the new environment. Dr. Martin shares a valuable lesson about recognizing that her way of doing things is not the only way, citing an example from her time at Mills College. She acknowledges that leadership requires understanding and accommodating different individuals' tolerance for change and making decisions with grace and collaboration.

The episode concludes with Dr. Martin's reflections on the importance of building trust within her team and being open to feedback and adjustments in leadership decisions.

Overall, this episode highlights the significance of embracing transitions, seizing opportunities, and fostering inclusivity and trust in leadership roles within the student affairs profession and organizations like NASPA.

Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!

Transcript

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]:

Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season nine on transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your SA Voices from the Field. Host.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:24]:

Welcome to SA. Voices thank you so much.

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:00:27]:

I'm excited to be here with you.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:28]:

We're so glad you agreed to be our season premiere of season nine, transitions in Higher Education. Think you're the perfect person to kick off our season because of your professional transitions, your institutional type transitions, and also your leadership transitions within NASPA. But as our season premiere person, that also means that we get to explore the direction of where we're going to go. And one of the things we will always keep consistent though, is we like to start our episodes with your come up. So how did you get to your current seat both at your institution and in NASPA?

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:00:59]:

Well, first of all, let me congratulate you on nine seasons of bringing forward our profession in a way that's really accessible to folks and interesting and lets us tell a little bit deeper story about what we're doing. So that's an amazing opportunity for you, for NASPA, and for Student affairs. So super excited to be a part of it. How I got here, I was just actually meeting with a grad student. So I have a general policy that if a grad student reaches out and wants to connect, I try to make that happen because I feel like that's an important part of the profession. So I actually had lunch with a graduate student last weekend who happens to be in the Atlanta area doing some work this year. And that was one of their questions, like, what was your student affairs journey? And I said, first, I said, I think I'm still on it. I'm not quite sure. Trying to figure out what I'm trying to do. But I went to college and really was as a first gen student, really with very little college knowledge. Got to my undergraduate because my mom's best friend's husband coached football there. That was part of my decision making factor in Student Affairs for thinking about the work we do around recruitment and trying to get students to come to our college. I'm sure all of the admissions professionals out there who hear this are going to cringe that. That was part of my college decision making journey. But alas, I got there and I was on a career trajectory to be into law and be a judge. That's what I wanted to do. That was my original career aspiration. So I got involved with the honor know, that seemed like a good extracurricular fit with being a judge. Right? And summer of my sophomore year, this person calls me in July. In the summer I'm working. They're like, hi, I'm your new dean of students at ECU. East Carolina is where I went my undergrad, and I'm going to be working with you next year. Really excited. I'm like, who calls you in the middle of the summer? I'm like, not even in the college frame, but alas. So that person was Dr. Karen Boyd, and she ended up being my dean for several years. Is actually a great friend of mine. At my wedding, we vacationed together even 30 years later almost. So it was because of her making me realize the opportunities available to me. I did want to go home for the summers back to my house in Virginia Beach, so I got connected with orientation so I could work. No real intention of it being a career. Hey, it was a job and a place to live and three meals. And I met the wonderful orientation director at Carolina, Beth Am. Pretty. And it really just went off from there, I think. I got a job in student affairs and got into law school the same week right when I was getting ready to graduate. My mom was a little surprised. You're going to do what? You're not going to go to law school? You're going to do this thing. I don't understand. But I did. I thought it was the right thing for me. I said then that I can always go back to law school. So yeah, so that's how I got into student affairs. It was sort of a circuitous serendipitous, I guess, is the better word for it, route. And I just kept taking advantage of opportunities and decided I wanted to go to grad school. So I had to wait a year, took as many advantages as I could where I was at ECU to do different jobs. I worked in admissions, I worked in the student union. Really cool opportunities. And I went to grad school so I could do this as a job. And my family, many of which have still not gone to college, are always like, how is school? School's still good? As if I'm still enrolled. I don't know. I don't know what they think I do, but it's really cute because they're always like student of life. Student. Exactly. I'm like school's still great. I think they think either just always in school or maybe I'm the principal, I don't know. But yeah, so that's why I got here. And I've just continued to have really great opportunities.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:20]:

The reason you heard me go, oh, wow, is I know Karen as well. Clearly not as well as you do, but I grew up in the conduct world, so Karen has been quite a presence stalwart in the conduct world for so many years.

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:04:30]:

It's true. I say she's always been really committed to this work and is a great connector, so it doesn't surprise me. Right. She's a great connector. She's always introducing people to each other. And I think I also, thankfully have learned that a little bit from her. So I try to do the same thing with people that I work with or mentor, just connecting them to the great people in our profession, for our.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:48]:

Listeners, Shakur and I on each other's journey. We met actually at the University of Oregon in 2000.

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:04:55]:

A long time. Sometime between somewhere. Yeah. Mid 2000, I think.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:02]:

Student affairs always comes around on itself, and I think it's a really great example of how small the profession can be, good, bad or ugly. But Shakura actually interviewed me for a job at one point when I was a much younger professional. So we all stay connected regardless of how those things turn out. I didn't end up working with Shakura on a full time basis, but we're still definitely in the Nasca space. You know, like, we're all those of us who've been around the block a few times, the six degrees of separation gets tinier and tinier.

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:05:29]:

It's true. I tell that to new professionals all the time in our field, is we have really tons and tons of amazing opportunities, and it's still a really small profession. And to your point, that can be good and challenging, I think good, because sometimes that sense of connectedness also is how we take care of each other. We look out. But I also know if you're coming from the outside and or you have identities that are not historically represented in our work, it can feel like you can't get in. Like, it's sort of an inside outside club. So I think we nurture that, but we also recognize it can feel a little clubbish, and we have to work on making sure everyone feels like they'd be a part of that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:04]:

Absolutely. And on our theme of transitions, you have now transitioned into the Nasca board chair role. You're in there a couple of months now, so I'm hoping you can talk to us a little bit about your come up in NASPA specifically and then also what that transition has been like from being, like, a general leader or a volunteer to suddenly sitting as the leader of the board.

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:06:25]:

Now, I appreciate that it's accidental leadership. If you heard, I giggle because when I remember talking to my partner when I was first approached about this opportunity and I said, it's a great thing. I mean, I won't get elected or anything. They probably won't even put me up. But it's a cool thing to be nominated or recognized, just to be to someone to reach out and say, hey, you're doing great things. We see you. So she laughs at me still that's, you know, you say that, and here you are doing you know, my role of work at NASA actually kind of parallels my work in student affairs in that I got my job. At the University of Oregon, and I was there in August, and Laura Blake Jones, who was the Dean of Students there at the time, said, hey, by the way, a bunch of us are on the Portland. It was a regional conference planning committee, and now you are yay. So welcome. I love being volatile. It was amazing. It was a very important job. I was in charge of parking.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:22]:

Oh, that was on a college campus. Do not underestimate the importance of parking.

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:07:26]:

I know it's true. I joke about it, and people are like, well, but if they can't park, no one can come. I was like, It's true. And parking in downtown Portland is not like most major cities. It's really challenging. But it's interesting though. I decided, like, okay, one thing, I was going to take that beyond and sort of my personality too. I was like, oh, what else can I do? So I had like, bus routes, and I got some free bus passes as giveaways. I just went and did all kinds of transportation things. So parking and transportation is important and fun, and I made the best of it. But I also said, hey, I know there's an LGBT knowledge community. I'm connected at that time. I was just I call it like a listserve member at the time, right? I got the emails and I said, I'd like to also provide some resources around LGBT things to do at the conference. And folks were really excited. So I took on that piece as well and just kind of ran with it. And it was a great opportunity. I met wonderful people in NASPA. It was really my first big involvement. And I think for the early part of my career, I was involved in both NASPA and ACPA fairly equally. ACPA was much bigger at my graduate institution, and I stayed connected to both. I think each organization has really valuable pieces for professionals and having each organization and lots of other ones, and I'll talk a little bit about that later, but that really benefit your professional development. So it's cool. Got connected to cool people and just stayed involved. Really got involved in the LGBT knowledge community. And that's what it was called at the time, right? And worked with that group and some wonderful leaders around some of the cool changes that we were working on as far as the organization being more inclusive, being more welcoming, and stayed connected there as well as the standing committee for ACPA. So it was really cool in working, and then as many of us sometimes do, I kept volunteering with NASPA, reviewing programs. That was one of the things I've constantly done. People are like, how do I get involved with something right away? I'm like, offer to review program proposals. It's one of the easiest ways, but really meaningful ways. You really help sculpt the professional development curriculum of our organization. So I've done that for years and generally was just open, especially when NASPA was close to us. So if it was close to me in an area as a relatively I'm not going to use the word poor that I don't think that's appropriate. As a relatively lower income employee at the time, I really couldn't travel nationally, so it was really taking advantage of whenever NASPA came by. The Bay Area first story. Get another bay in heights. So I was really excited in looking at my trajectory as a mid level professional and how you get to become into sort of a vice presidency. It's not a very clear process. It's somewhat opaque sometimes. How do you get the skills and experience? So I think my first really big opportunity to engage was when the faculty director of Manicure, which is a wonderful institute to help support women to get into VP positions, I would say argue sometimes to decide they don't want to be a vice president, which is a completely appropriate reason to also do it. Mamta Akapati reached out to me, and Mamta and I have known each other for a long time, more from afar. She's an amazing leader, really, I think sets a lot of opportunity in our community to talk about inclusive leadership in a particular way. And I've always really appreciated her work in that area and said, hey, you want to get involved with this thing, Manicure? I had never been, and not because I didn't think it was important, but because of my gender identity. I wasn't exactly sure if it was that space for me. I want to honor and respect spaces that are set for people who particularly have marginalized identities to sort of honor that. I think it's important. I think we can have lots of inclusive spaces, but I think those are vital too. And she moms and I said, let's talk. So we talked, and she really shared with me that this was about folks who are marginalized because of their gender, having a path to a VP position. And that really speaks to me because I would say that one of the reasons that I'm at a historically women's college is because we talk about gender all the time. All the time. You have to. It's what you do. So being able to really do that in a way through the NASPA leadership opportunities was exciting, and I think we had an amazing faculty. It was a really profound experience for me as a faculty member, and I had the honor. So it's every two years, the next two years, usually a faculty member is asked to be the faculty director. And so in 2020, I was able to be the faculty director. And again, just those leaders that I'm connected to the faculty, I have a text chat with all of them. To this day that we chat with each other, and some of the participants I'm still connected to reach out, and we have conversations about their careers, what they're doing, how things are going. It's really exciting. And so that was really my first national opportunity. Besides always being involved with the national conferences volunteering and doing all the things I could. I even remember volunteering at TPE for those of us who were older and remember volunteering at TPE. And mine was the mailboxes. So people asked me of one of my most memorable NASPA experiences is working at the mailboxes, at the placement exchange with folks, applying for jobs and trying to be really so my journey with NASPA was just about saying people, you know, opportunities with different groups and just saying, yeah, I'll try that, I'll help out. I will do whatever that thing is. And when I was approached to be the board chair, I really said, if the NASPA membership feels I can be of service, then I'm there. If they feel my leadership, what I bring, how I approach the work and our profession, then I would be honored to serve in that way.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:46]:

So let's talk about that process a little bit, because I think that too can be a bit opaque. How does one be considered to become the NASPA board chair, and what does that feel like as the person who just went through it and the transition from prospective candidate to candidate to sure.

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:13:01]:

There'S actually it's a pretty thoughtful process. It kind of goes back to what I said earlier about ensuring that we have a process that's clear to our membership, but it feels like there's an opportunity to engage with it at a variety of levels. So NASPA will reach out to folks around being the board chair. You can throw your own name out there and say, hey, I'm interested. They also solicit from NASPA leaders, ideas, folks who might be really interested. And the first part of that conversation is looking at, do we have a good slate of folks to talk with? Right? Are we representing different groups, different regions? That's a huge part, right? We represent a very diverse constituency, have our regions. Of course, I throw that all in the loop as I move across country. But we'll talk about our regions represented, different backgrounds, different functional areas. And then the past chair part of their responsibility is actually to run this process. So you serve three years, incoming chair, current chair, and past chair. So the past chair then reaches out to folks and has a conversation. I remember my conversation with Angela Batista, and it was really, really important because Angela named what would be expected. And I think that's important to really have a thoughtful conversation with yourself, to the demands of them, to have a conversation with your family, your boss, the people who work with you. Because I would say specifically the board chair year, you're going to ask those folks in your sphere of the world to sort of take on more and to support you. So I think in that process, then folks really name, okay, yeah, I'm interested, or it's not my time. And I would say a lot of folks will say that I am very interested, but it's not my time to do that. And I think that allows us to recognize that this is a volunteer position, that all of us have other jobs. You're required to be in a student affairs role while you're in the board chair position. So it is really on top of everything else. And from that, the slate of candidates, those two candidates that rise to the top through this committee selection process, through the interviews, go to the membership, and the members get to vote between those two folks. We do a great sort of webinar kind of conversation. We have to do a video. That two minute video. I feel like it took me 20 hours to make. It is so hard to get everything you want to say in two minutes. That was, I think, the hardest part of it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:09]:

And in one take. That is rough.

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:15:11]:

I know. It was so arduous. My staff will tell you here, I hate doing videos, especially when they're scripted. I don't like conversational. I love having a conversation. But those sort of scripted are when you really and you have to in two minutes, you have to write everything down, because if you don't, at least I I will name for myself. I'll wander off talking about whatever you want to talk about, but that was the hardest part. And then it goes out to the members, and they vote and make a decision about who can lead. And I would know. I ran against Eddie Martinez. He is an amazing human, and frankly, the NASPA would have been in a great hands no matter who they elected. So, thankfully, Eddie is now on the foundation board. I'm glad we've kept him close. He's a wonderful person, and I know he'll really serve that foundation board well.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:56]:

And it's such a delightful thing to think about. Your colleagues nominating you for this leadership role, but also really important to know that there's an interview process that you have to really think about why you want to be in this position and what does it mean to you. And the interesting thing about association leadership, which is much different than campus based leadership, is that you are actually more of a steward of the association for the period of time you're in the seat, rather than kind of operationally leading like you would in a division of student affairs. So let's talk a little bit about the transition of hat that you have to wear between your day job and your board chair job.

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:16:29]:

Yeah, that's a great analogy. That stewardship I describe it as I'm a threat. And one end of my thread is connected to Danita, right. She's already gone through and served our organization and still does this past year. And the other end of my thread is connected to Anna Gonzalez, who will come in next year. And I sort of hold this for a year, but I need to figure out how do I add texture and color to that. That's unique to me and my leadership that really helps serve the organization overall, because that's the most important thing. And I think my leadership style and what I bring to that. But you're right, there's a whole I use the word gaggle, very fondly gaggle of amazing staff at NASPA who do exceptional work to make this manageable for someone like me. I mean, quite frankly, if it wasn't for them, this would not be possible. They are leaders in higher education. Almost all of them have worked in higher education or in something really closely related. Many have. So they understand the flow. And I always joke we have a pretty routine bruton and I schedule throughout the year, but we don't meet in August in the same way. And people are like, oh, we're not meeting in August. I'm like because it's August. And Beth understands what August looks like for most of us.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:35]:

Unless you're on quarters.

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:17:36]:

I know. I bet our term schools are like, in September. I know, but we do try. I think it's important. So the NASPA staff are great, and they're know I think every board chair comes in with a sort of a vision of how do I support the organization? And a big part of mine is sort of being with folks in community. So I've made it a real effort throughout the past summer to be able to go to as many regional conferences, specialties conferences, like our Student Success Conference. I'm looking forward to our Strategies conference in January, our racial equity conference in December. So being there and having conversations, I had wonderful visits with region Two and Three at their regional conferences in June. So I think that's an important part of what I think I'm bringing to that sort of stewardship of the board chair is helping our membership understand that, yes, there's this amazing group of staff, but the responsibility and opportunity of NASPA is with us. It is our organization. And you have a board of volunteers who represent all of the regions, all of the divisions, all the wonderful areas that are so important to us. And they are working really hard to make sure NASPA is your organization. And we want you to engage and participate by being in volunteer roles, reading whatever way you can participate. So that really, I think, is my sort of opportunity to steward the relationship our membership has with not. I would say in some ways, it's not unlike being a vice president in that I spend a lot of time ensuring that everyone understands what the Division of Student Affairs does, the important work and contributions we make to the learning and education for students. But thankfully, in my day job, I do a lot of problem solving. And I would say that generally, the Nasca staff ends up being a great know. Kevin and I meet monthly to do that, and by the time we hear about. They have like six solutions. They're like, here are the six solutions the board can choose. Pick one. So I wish I had that group of people all the time. Although I would say, here my current role. My staff also do a pretty good job of that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:37]:

So when you think about the transitions of institution types, you've also spent time at large publics. You're now at a small private. You changed and transitioned between the east and the West Coast, or really the West Coast to the south. Tell us about those transitions and what you've learned and what made them successful, or I guess also what made them really scary.

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:19:55]:

Does that make me like a sort of student affairs unicorn? When I was talking to someone, they were like, you went from a big public to a small private, from the West Coast to the East Coast. Right. I think it just shows you what we talked about earlier, that our profession, while large, is also small in some ways. There's some consistent things that we think also. For me, transitions are about remaining really open to bringing your experience, but recognizing every position you come into as an opportunity to learn, as opposed to assuming you know all the answers. So I think that's always been a very successful sort of transitions approach for me. I went from a school of 25,000 to a school with less than 2500 and being able open to say, yeah, I've got some great ideas, but I need to also see how I could apply them here. I'll use a funny example. So when I went from Oregon to Mills College, when I got there, they had all these posters and flyers everywhere, and they were all like handwritten and were and I said, well, why don't we create a way so they can create more digital posters or we can get a tool people can use. And I'm thinking this in my head because my policy is when I come to a new position, I'm just sort of soaking it in. And then it only took me about a month to realize that was just an important part of that way that campus communicated that sort of homemade and or high touch approach. It wasn't just that they put these banners up, but the fact that the organization who did them all got together and made them together and then put them up, that was part of the culture of gathering for them sense of belonging. And had I just come in and said, oh, we have these great tools at this big school and we're going to do this thing, I wouldn't have seen or felt that. So instead, I bought them a stencil machine. So little cutout stencils for those of you who have those on your campus, you know, little machine, you hope nobody takes their finger off it. Makes me a little nervous. But alas, then we had little classes. You had to do a little class before you could use the stencil machine. And then I bought, like, every color butcher paper on that cool wheelie thing known to student affairs so that students could just make better posters. They could be clear, you could read them better, they could do them more quickly. They had the right supplies, and we had a little big table in a space where they could do it. So I think that's an example of sort of recognizing that in transitions, we bring a lot of knowledge and experience, but to do it well, we have to be able to adapt it to the community we're a part of. We have to just recognize. And I think this is also one of the things I take away from traveling abroad a lot. You and I have talked about this. We both have this love of travel, and I traveled very young. My father imported spices for a living. That was his job. And so I had the opportunity to be in countries in the Middle East and in Europe pretty young. And I took from that also, like, oh, my way of doing things is just a way of doing things. It is not the way of doing things. And I think that has helped me in every transition to recognize I have great experience, but I need to figure out how to apply that to the benefit of that campus or that volunteer role to make it better and to kind of contain be nimble and also learn stuff. I mean, that's the coolest part. I'm always learning things from those around me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:56]:

Is there a time that you made a mistake in a transition that you've learned from and applied towards future transition.

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:23:02]:

Mistake, opportunity for learning?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:04]:

I don't know.

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:23:05]:

I'm kind of an optimist. No, I would describe as mistakes. You do things in a silo that you are unwilling to own. Like, that's sort of a mistake. For me, everything else is an area where you did probably the best with the knowledge you had, but you have to own when it's just it's not the right thing or it didn't work or you weren't as inclusive. And sure, certainly I think sometimes I get ahead of myself. I'm about recognizing that not everybody has a different tolerance for change and a good leader number one job is to recognize that actually not just to do the change, but to actually recognize folks tolerance for change. I was at Mills College when Mills College merged with Northeastern. Talk about learning. I never thought I would do that in my higher education experience. And I think there were certainly times where it was challenging. Right. It's challenging for an organization to change that significantly. And I learned a lot from trying to apply kind of traditional roles of sort of change management in a way that we've never done before. Right. But it's also having some grace with myself and with others. Around me. So I'd say that's a takeaway. Even when I mess up, which I think the first thing is just I actually not that long ago said to Sioux staff who brought forward, hey, we don't like the way this was going. This is how it's impacting us. First thing is I said thank you for trusting me to bring this to me. That can be scary. I'm your boss. Second, I'm sorry, I hear what you're saying. I wasn't coming from that perspective, we need to do some things, but I see how doing it that way is problematic. So let's get together in the end. I should have gotten together first, but sometimes we get moving so quickly that we don't recognize everyone who needs to be there. And that that change is really important. And as I said to my folks that work with me, hopefully we can build a layer of trust that if I do have to do that, you can trust me enough to know that it's not the typical way I want to make change, but the situation required it. So doing that, naming that, and then what I think that big opportunity always takes is that change is never easy. It sometimes feels a little easy when you're in positions of power and positions of decision making. And information really is just about everything. How we control information, how decisions are made, who gets to make decisions. I think that's the key to not making mistakes and to just learning from those opportunities.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:25]:

It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:31]:

Welcome back to the NASPA World. Really excited to be able to talk to you again today in a brand new season. And there is a lot going on in NASPA. Coming up in only a few days on September 20 at 02:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, is a webinar that is available for members and nonmembers alike called Career Readiness. A shared responsibility between student affairs and academic affairs. At research focused institutions, career outcomes have focused on the first destination, corporate hiring and graduate school enrollment. Today, the measures of student success are more broad than a first destination. Career readiness is now an accepted student success outcome. How do research intensive institutions frame this? Explicitly as tied to institutional learning objectives and a shared responsibility of academic and student affairs? In this webinar, three institutions Stony Brook University, SUNY, the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Minnesota, and the University of Texas at Austin will share their models and approaches. You can still register, so go to the NASPA website to find out more. There's another new volume of the Journal of College and Character that is currently out. All NASPA members do have access to this journal. Among all of the other journals of the association in this issue, there are a number of great articles, peer reviewed articles, as well as opinions and perspectives that range from topics involving career development to university chaplaincy to even considering antihazing messaging. It's a powerful journal that I highly encourage you to check out. It is a part of your membership, and you can take advantage of reading through the different articles from many different authors and practitioners here in the field. Know you get a lot of emails from knowledge communities and other aspects of NASPA, but it's important for you to check those emails, read through them, because there are specific dates and deadlines and things that you need to keep in mind in regard to your membership, in regard to how you can recognize people on your own campus or programs on your own campus. And I don't want you to miss out on these opportunities. One such opportunity is the annual awards process that happens every fall, and the deadline for submitting programs and people for different awards that are hosted by knowledge communities within NASPA or NASPA in general, typically have a deadline of Friday, October 6, 2023. So I want to encourage you to go to the NASPA Awards portal on the NASPA website, and you can go into the NASPA website, go to awards, and find out more. But in there, you can go in, you can look at Knowledge Community Awards, division Awards, dissertation of the Year Awards. There's lots of different awards that are out there and different deadlines, and all the deadlines that are out there as well. Most are October 6. But the Dissertation of the Year award is Saturday, September 30. So I don't want you to miss out on taking advantage of submitting for these awards, submitting others for these awards, because it is a great opportunity to be able to recognize the work that is being done, the people, the programs at your own institutions, and being able to have them potentially get recognized at the national Conference. So, again, the deadline is October 6. I really highly encourage you to at least go check out the portal itself. To make it simple, I know I said you could go to the NASPA website to access this, and you can, but I'm going to make it even simpler. I created a short link for you to follow to be able to check out all the awards, and it's just bitbit lynaspa, 20 fourawards, all one word. So again, bit Lee NASPA 20 fourawards. Every week we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Because the association is as strong as its members and for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself. Where do you fit? Where do you want to give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:21]:

Chris, thanks so much for kicking us off with season nine's very first NASPA World segment. As always, we are so grateful for you putting together this list. And if you're new to the show, we want to remind you that our mission here is to provide free and accessible professional development for you, our student affairs professionals, especially as we know, as our travel budgets are seemingly restricted more and more every year. So we thank you for joining us and we're glad that you're here. And Shakura, we have reached our lightning round time. I've got seven questions for you in about 90 seconds. You ready?

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:31:51]:

Okay, I'm ready. Let's do it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:53]:

All right, question number one if you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:31:58]:

Oh, I have two choices if it's a chill conference. The rainbow connection by Kermit the Frog. If we're going a little more fly it's. I was here by Beyonce.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:06]:

Number two, when you were five years old, what did you want to be.

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:32:09]:

When you grew think? I'm not sure I wanted to be a judge quite yet. I definitely want to be underwater, so I would say maybe I want to live underwater or be a marine biologist. One of the two.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:19]:

Number three, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:32:22]:

Oh, Dr. Karen Boyd. I think, like I said, is the reason I got here. And I would say just about every person I've worked for and with is a mentor to me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:31]:

Number four, your essential student affairs read.

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:32:34]:

Reading the books that we learn from every one of them has a student affairs message. My current one is Braiding Sweetgrass, which is a great context on science and indigenous folks. So that's the one that's going to inform me today.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:45]:

Number five, the best TV show you binged during the Pandemic.

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:32:48]:

All right. The mass singer. That was it. I wouldn't say it's the best, but it certainly helped me get through the pandemic. And the other one was Bridgerton, so we could talk about that. That was a great piece.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:58]:

Number six, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:33:02]:

This is amazing. I don't listen to a ton of podcasts, but my wife does and she tells me all about them. So The Hidden Brain has been a really recent one that she's been listening. I've been listening through her.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:12]:

And finally, number seven. Any shout outs you'd like to give? Personal or professional?

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:33:16]:

Thank you for that. I have one for you for taking the time to do this to my great wife and all of our kids who are attached to us. We have about seven and some grandkids for putting up with us and to all the student affairs professionals who are new to the field and finding your path and journey. There's a place here for you and we're excited to have you with us. And for the folks who've been here a while, leading is challenging, so we're here to support you as well.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:35]:

You made it, yay. Really appreciate you taking time out of your very busy schedule and balancing the time zones that we're currently in. Currently, Shakur and I are recording 12 hours opposite, so very early in the morning for them and very late at night for me. So we're making it work and then we're going to do this for the rest of the season. But this is part of my joy as a student affairs professional, getting to have depth of story with the amazing humans who make NASPA happen and who make our profession work and who are committed to positive change in our profession. So I'm grateful for you and your leadership and looking forward to seeing what the next semester and a half bring in your stewardship of the organization. I think it'll be over before you blink.

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:34:14]:

Oh, it will. Thank you for hosting this and for the opportunity for the world to be able to have, like you said, accessible professional development at their fingertips. One of the most important things we do.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:24]:

And finally, Shakura, if anyone would like to connect with you after the show airs, how can they find you?

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:34:28]:

Sure easiest is LinkedIn. And then if you Google Shakura Martin, you will see my position and the NASPA website. So check those out and then message me on LinkedIn if you have questions.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:37]:

Thank you so much for sharing your voice with us.

Dr. Chicora Martin [00:34:39]:

Thank you.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:41]:

This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field, brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at savoices@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L. Craighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show. And please like, rate and review us on apple podcasts spotify or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill L. Creighton. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to Duke Kunshan University and the University of Michigan, Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

We are very excited to be preparing for Season 9 of SA Voices from the Field. This season we will be looking at things that we do something we do many times in our careers, transitions. Take a listen while Jill Creighton and Chris Lewis talk abmany times in ourout the new season.

Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!

Transcript

Jill Creighton:

Welcome to Student Affairs voices from the field. The podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 9 on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Doctor Jill Creighton. Sheherhers, your SA voices from the field host.

Happy August, Chris.

Christopher Lewis:

It is great to be back and really excited about this new season and new school year. and just new in general.

Jill Creighton:

You've got a lot of major things happening in your life right now about to sun. Well, I'll I'll let you talk about it.

Christopher Lewis:

that we do. And not only with work, but personally, I'm sending my oldest to college. So she is a freshman the university of North Carolina Chapel Hill. She's there. She started, and she is living her best life. So we are stepping back and watching from a distance and doing the whole parent thing. And I'm watching from the pilons and watching to see how student affairs works at other institutions.

Jill Creighton:

It's such a fascinating thing to going from the person who's behind the scenes to the person who's experiencing the thing that we all try to make sure it works. And that's a huge transition for you. I also know that I've got a huge transition on my campus this fall Over the summer here at DKU, we opened 22 new buildings. And I know that is such a wild concept for pretty much anyone in American Higher Ed. But because my institution is only a decade old, we're still building infrastructure. So our phase 2 campus just opened out of 22 of those facilities. 11 of them are under student affairs. And I've got a new sports complex opening, our student union building, which is called our community center. Just came online. And I also have 8 undergraduate residence halls and 1 graduate student residence hall. And, you know, I've opened new buildings in my career before. but I've literally never opened 11 at once. So big transitions for both of us, which got us really thinking, what do we wanna focus on this season? So, Chris, do you wanna make the big announcement?

Christopher Lewis:

Really excited because this season, we're going to be talking about transitions gonna be talking about transitions in our personal life, but we're also gonna be talking about transitions in student affairs to get some amazing guests throughout the entire season. they're gonna be talking about transitions that they've gone through in their careers and the things that worked, the things that didn't work, or might not have worked, and we'll definitely be learning from all of them along the way and pass that learning on to you.

Jill Creighton:

And we want to really take your guest suggestions this season as well. We're always open to them. But if you know someone who's making a transition in their career, whether it be from undergraduate to graduate student pursuing a master's in higher ed or a graduate student to 1st full time position or from a new professional to mid level professional, especially if you're going from never supervising full time professionals before to leading and supervising full time professionals. We're also very excited to be experiencing along with them at the transition to NASA board chair for Doctor Shikora Martin. And then I'll also give a teaser that one of our long time NASA members and pillar of the profession, Doctor. Lori S White, will be coming on to talk about transition from VPSA to a university president, which is a very, very big transition. So all of these folks are going to be sharing their stories and We really do hope to hear from you on other folks who we should be featuring.

Christopher Lewis:

One of the things that I would really throw out there, and they said this at the beginning is that if you know of somebody or if you have had a transition that wasn't the best transition and it wasn't a positive experience, we'd like to talk to you too. because we don't want any of these episodes to come across as being that all transitions are great because they're not. And so many times where you might make a choice you may step into something and it doesn't work out, but you learn from it and the learning that you had from that experience or others have had from their experiences could help others to not make the same mistake and to be able to learn and grow from the steps that you were in or that others were in.

Jill Creighton:

The other type of transition that we'd love to hear from you on is if you're experiencing leadership transition, maybe you yourself are sitting in the same seat, but perhaps the people above you are changing. I know that's happening on my campus. We're getting a brand new chancellor as well as a brand new executive vice chancellor, which in the structure that I operate in, is effectively the COO of the campus. And so having kind of the top two roles that my campus changing at the same time is a major transition. So while my role is staying stable, I don't know what the priorities of the new leadership will be, and I think that's always an thing placed to navigate. And so wherever you are in your organizational structure, if that's happening for you, you would also be a great guest.

Christopher Lewis:

Oh, Jill, I'm just really excited I'm excited to not only be a part of this season, but to learn about from all of the guests because I know there's going to be so much that they're going to share, not only with us, but it's great to be behind the scenes. And I know that you that are listening are going to learn so much from the season as well. And we just love having you listen every week.

Jill Creighton:

So thank you for continuing to come back. We will be releasing our first episode sometime in early to mid-September still on that Thursday drop. So for those of you who are commute-based listeners, and you can look forward to like I said, early to mid-September, and we look forward to, bring you all the content. So see you very soon.

Jill Creighton [00:05:32]:

This has been an episode of essay voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners, we are so grateful that you continue to listen me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L Creighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment tell a colleague about the show, and please like Bait and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals buy the show and helps us after Chris Lewis. Guests coordination by Lu Yongru, special thanks to Duke Kunshan University and the University of Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

This week on  SA Voices From the Field, we interviewed Gian Luca Giovannucci, President of the European University College Association. 

Gian Luca is a lawyer registered with the Italian bar association.

He has been on the board of directors of Collegio Universitario Internazionale di Roma (CUIR) since 1992, advocating for the integration of life skills in the academic curricula and working for national recognition of University Colleges of Merit (Collegi di Merito) to foster academic excellence in Italy. 

Recognizing the added value of internationalization in higher education, Gian Luca promoted the creation of the European University College Association (EucA) in 2006, and he has been its president ever since. During his tenure with EucA, Gian Luca has pursued the association’s growth, and official recognition by European Union institutions of University Colleges’ role in providing a holistic education for students that strengthens their development and employability.

While at EucA, he has overseen the creation and management of European research projects, namely Modernising Higher Education through Soft Skills Accreditation (MODES).

He is a keen supporter of NASPA-Student Affairs Administrators in Higher Education, with which he has collaborated since 2012 in the organization of International Events.

From the beginning, Gian Luca has enthusiastically participated in IASAS's creation. He has participated from the first meeting in 2010 in Venice, with IASAS President Emeritus Roger Ludeman, to his current role as Treasurer.

In 2012, he attended the first IASAS Global Summit in Washington D.C., USA. He organized the second in Rome, Italy in 2014, continuing the collaboration until the Global Summit in Cork, Ireland in 2022.

Gian Luca is a co-author of the volume "Supporting Students globally in the Higher Education", published in 2016 by IASAS and NASPA.

When not engaging with EucA projects and students in Brussels, Rome or other European cities, Gian Luca is an enthusiastic promoter of “made in Italy” products: be it Italian fashion, cuisine or wines, he persuasively argues-as any lawyer does-the advantages of buying Italian goods. 

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