Ditto Foods: Where a pair of hydroponic farmers persevered through 25 rejections before being able to start their own urban farm and invest in the place they call home
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (00:00):
Thanks for joining us. I think you're going to find this first episode of 2023 as fascinating as I did. It's about a pair of farmers named Derek and Brad, who grow about three acres worth of produce in just 320 square feet. They're using hydroponics to, as Derek put it, replicate Mother Nature at its finest. And for an old dirt farmer like me, it was really fun to talk with them about the science behind this technology. But in between all of the talk about soil science and chemistry and light spectrums, I hope you don't miss the story of endurance and entrepreneurship, perseverance, and above all, the meaningfulness of investing in the place you call home. Enjoy.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (00:45):
Welcome to More Than a Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmers market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than a Mile, and thank you for buying local food. That's one critical step in making an investment in food for future generations. All right, well, I'm really excited. My guests today are Derek Drake and Brad Schiever of Ditto Foods. Really excited to have you guys. Thanks for joining.
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (01:32):
Thanks for having us.
Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (01:33):
Yes, thank you.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (01:33):
You know, some people farm just because they have to, some people get to choose to farm because they want to. And a few people farm because they want to change the world or their corner of the world. And I've been looking forward to this conversation because that describes, I think both you and I, Derek. But our farms look very different.
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (01:56):
Oh yeah.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (01:58):
So how big's your farm?
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (01:59):
It is a 40 foot shipping container, so 320 square feet.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (02:04):
And where is it sitting right now?
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (02:06):
It's in our driveway in the back of our house
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (02:10):
In the south suburb of Chicago.
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (02:12):
In the south suburbs of Chicago. Yes. On our property. So we take up a very small footprint.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (02:17):
How many cows can you get in that shipping container? I'm just kidding.
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (02:20):
Oh, probably about five.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (02:25):
Ok
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (02:25):
They won't be able to move around, but
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (02:27):
Not a whole lot of grazing inside there,
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (02:29):
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (02:30):
This is a fascinating journey. I want to start from the beginning. So 2020, Covid happens. You are senior staff at Kellogg, Northwestern University mm-hmm.
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (02:47):
Well, I've always been one of those folks that goes to, all right, what's the next right move for me. In grad school, I've created a business plan for a food truck concept. And it was kind of marrying food truck meets tiny home. And after the furlough, I was like, okay, I want to see if I can do something with this. And started down this long rabbit hole of looking for developers, manufacturers of food trucks and tiny homes and seeing what we can do. And went to Brad and said, all right, I'd like to go down this route. And so I started the search and found this company out of Boston called Freight Farms that manufactures these shipping container farms, and went to Brad and said, I think I wanna be a farmer. I think this is the next right move. And he thought I was crazy. And we started the journey.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (03:52):
And today you're a farmer,
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (03:54):
And today I'm a farmer in a shipping container. Yes.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (03:57):
Take that Brad
New Speaker (03:59):
Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (04:00):
Right, Right? It was interesting. It was interesting to say the least for Derek to say, we're gonna grow three acres of farm and three acres of crops in 320 square feet. It took a lot of, a lot of convincing and a lot of research and understanding of what exactly that meant to be a farmer, especially without soil.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (04:21):
Well, I, I want to dive into that for sure. Because I'm a farmer with soil and a lot of it. And and this whole concept is fascinating to me. I think it'll be fascinating to our listeners too. But before we get there, I just wanna, there's a part of this story that I wanna make sure is told because Derek, you are an experienced leader and an executive with an MBA. But you couldn't get bankers to believe that this was a legit business, could you?
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (04:52):
No. Well, you have to, you know, there are a lot of intersectionality going on in that conversation because a.) Trying to first teach them and educate them on what the hell hydroponics was in the first place, and then talk to them about growing in the back of a truck, essentially. And then they were also dealing with the pandemic. So they had PPP loans, and so they weren't sure of what was happening. And then we were telling them, our customers are restaurants, and every restaurant was shut down,
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (05:40):
So do you know how many banks said no? Like how many, how many no's did you have to take?
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (05:47):
- Wow. And those are the ones that actually got back to us that we actually talked to. Cause there were, there were several that never even returned an email or a call.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (05:57):
But the 26th one decided to bet on you, huh?
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (06:01):
Yeah. Yeah. The one yes, that we got, actually, ironically enough came from our second No. After they gave us a no, he reached out to us about three or four months later and was like, you know, I, I really think you guys got something good here. I like what you're trying to do. I have a colleague of mine at another bank, they're a little bit more lenient to lending to startups. Do you mind if I send your information to him? I was like, send whatever you need. What does he need? I'll, I'll send it myself.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (06:34):
Did you ever give up hope?
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (06:36):
I did. Yeah, I did. But I knew what we were trying to accomplish. I knew that it was something good and I knew that if we had it, if we got it, it was gonna be something that was a.) Change our lives and our kids' lives, but also be impactful for the community that I wanted to impact, which is where I grew up in my hometown of Fort Heights. And so that was really what kind of kept us going. But absolutely, after you get No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's really hard to stay going.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (07:13):
So, New Year's Eve, 2021, your farm arrives
Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (07:27):
So we had it delivered December 31st, 2021. And it sat unattended, essentially. Because of the length of this process, we really did not, you know, we anticipated putting the first farm in Ford Heights, and because of how long it took to get financing, multiple changes had taken place with Ford Heights, with the mayor and the board, et cetera. And so when we got approved for the loan and the loan came through in October, we then called Freight Farms and said, you know, we're ready to make payment on the farm. And they said, okay, we can have it to you in a month and a half
Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (08:25):
We didn't plan on moving until summer of '22. And we found this house pop up that had been on the market over a year. And we'd been on Zillow multiple times, never came up until this came up. And Derek's like, look at this. Let's go check it out. So the next day we went and checked it out and as the realtor and I are in the house, we have no idea where Derek's at. And here's Derek in the backyard playing with the neighbor's chickens that decided to come running over. And so we looked at the agent and said, okay, you have a month to make this happen cause we have a farm to drop here. And so it was dropped on New Year's Eve and we were able to get into it finally mid-February. And the first seed was planted March 1st of '22.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (09:14):
When most people say they want a farm and they have to move to farm, they're moving to a place, you know, that is a farm.
Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (09:31):
Exactly. We had to make sure we could have a farm delivered to where we were living. You know, the great part is where we found essentially is a farm, was a farm, at one time. And so we found, ideally what we had thought we were never gonna find as we thought about moving, which was an acre of land and a place that we could drop a shipping container.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (09:55):
Do you have a well or are you on city water?
Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (09:57):
We are on a well, but we have a water system that produces some of the best water out there at the moment. Our crops are well watered with fantastic, fantastic quality water.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (10:11):
So you said seed in the ground in March. First crops in April?
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (10:14):
Well, not, not quite in the ground.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (10:17):
Well,
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (10:39):
Same process. We have growing trays that we start our seeds in, but the growing media that we use is not soil. It's peat moss/coco coir mix. And we plant our seed, put the humidity domes on, and we germinate, you know, essentially just like,
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (10:58):
That's exactly what I do. Yeah, ok.
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (11:00):
We germinate the same way, except instead of putting it, once it's ready to go, instead of putting it in the ground, we put it in a eight foot tower,
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (11:08):
A tower. Tell me what else is different. So this, this medium, it's not soil, but it's a medium. It's somewhat absorbent, right? It allows the moisture to get to the seed and the roots. What's the plant eat?
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (11:22):
Nutrients. What we do is we replicate the nutrients that they would get from the soil. So the minerals and all the macro and micronutrients that they would get from the soil. And any fertilizer that you feed into the soil, we actually introduce that to the plants through the water, which is, you know, essentially what hydroponics is. It's using water as the conduit to bring the nutrients to the plants.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (11:47):
Okay. And tell me what kind of plants are growing in your farm right now? Lettuce, I assume. Anything else?
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (11:54):
Lettuce, leafy greens, herbs. We've grown root vegetables like carrots and radishes and different types of lettuce. We have about six or seven different types of lettuce, a couple of different types of butterhead, some frisee, lots of different herbs. This time of year we're doing sage, rosemary, basil. So we got a variety, nice variety of things that we grow.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (12:21):
Carrots and radishes too.
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (12:23):
Mm-Hmm.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (12:45):
That is really cool.
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (12:46):
Yeah. And we're currently right now also trialing cucumbers.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (12:51):
Wow. A vining cucumber. How so? I'm assuming like your lettuce is cut and come back. Some of the other things are single harvest, like your root vegetables mm-hmm.
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (13:10):
It's TBD
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (13:26):
It's not space efficient.
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (13:27):
Exactly.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (13:28):
Not very space efficient
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (13:30):
And in a vertical format as well. So there's a lot of rigging that we'll have to do once the vines themselves get too heavy to mm-hmm.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (13:51):
That is really impressive. And that's exactly what entrepreneurship is about. Right? It's like, ready, fire, aim, Hey, let's try cucumbers,
Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (14:15):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. There is a, I don't want to necessarily use the term clean, but there's a freshness to the lettuce that comes out. The kale specifically has just a raw, crisp flavor to it. The texture is incredible. The lettuce has a great flavor and moisture to it. And the best part is that when you're doing full head, once they're harvested, especially for those that we sell, the root is still on. So those nutrients, it's not dead when it's at the store, even delivered to the customer's home, it's still living, put in a cup of water and it's gonna stay fresh and crisp for two weeks or more.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (15:02):
Oh, that's great. Yeah, because that's the biggest thing with store bought lettuce is you start the clock when you take that thing off the shelf. Exactly. Yeah. Sometimes the clock's already been running a little too long while it's on the shelf
Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (15:14):
Well, and a lot of it is, especially some of the bag lettuce, has been cut and harvested and washed, and it's two weeks old by the time you pick it up in the store. So when you get it home and you open it up and you wonder why it lasts two days, well, because it's been dead for quite some time
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (15:29):
On our farm, we had just started this year, a greenhouse, it's a high tunnel. We're doing some winter growing, spinach lettuces kale and broccoli as well. But we're still using the sun for our light source. You are in a dark shipping container. It is opaque by design. Tell me, is there any reason why you don't augment light with maybe like a clear cover on the, on the container ship? Is there a particular benefit you get by being able to control the exact spectrums of light that you're producing inside your farm?
Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (16:05):
Yeah, the plants need the red and blue light for photosynthesis. And with the sunlight it has all of the other colors it has to fight through to get exactly what it needs. And so the best part of container farming and hydroponic farming is we give the plants exactly what they need. And so we're giving them 18 hours of pure red and blue light for the strongest photosynthesis possible, which allows us to be able to produce a crop from seed to harvest in six weeks.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (16:47):
So you can accelerate the growth by concentrating on only the light spectrums that that plant's gonna need to produce the leaves that people are gonna eat.
Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (16:57):
Exactly. And the cool part about the farm that we have from Freight Farms is we have their most recent model. And so they have three different modes to it, essentially, which we're running in performance mode currently, which allows for that six week growth cycle. It's getting the exact light, nutrients and water that it needs, while still being sustainable, even though it is in performance mode.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (17:20):
What about the light spectrum needed for this, it's a fruiting plant flowering and fruiting is what cucumbers are. A lot of people don't think of cucumbers as fruit, but, the science geek here, it's a fruit. And that takes a different spectrum, doesn't it?
Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (17:36):
A little bit different temperature necessarily. So with the farm, we can go ahead and program in there what we're growing. And so it has built in automatically what's called recipes. So wow. Right now, because we're experimenting with root vegetables, the farm is still set to grow lettuce and leafy greens, which is a cool weather crop, essentially. Mm-Hmm.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (18:22):
How will you handle pollination?
Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (18:24):
So there is actually the ability, it's pretty basic. It's taking just like a toothbrush and rubbing it against the flower.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (18:32):
Yeah. So you'll manually pollinate.
Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (18:34):
It will be manual pollination. But again, the flowers that we're seeing are incredible right now.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (18:42):
I assume you don't want to release a hive of bees inside of your container ship.
Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (18:47):
No, no. We're gonna try and control that part of it as well.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (18:50):
Controlled environment's gotta be the most beneficial there. I have a hive on our property. But definitely try to steer clear of it. I wouldn't wanna be inside a container ship with it.
Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (19:02):
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (19:03):
This is really fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing and just educating us on hydroponics. Is there anything else I've not asked? What do you find the most surprising about growing this way versus backyard gardening even?
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (19:20):
I would say the efficiency and how fast the crop grows. When you're replicating nature, we're replicating nature at its best. So it is always a perfect sunny day. It is always the perfect air temperature. It is always the perfect amount of air flow. So we're replicating nature at its finest. And when you do that, you're literally given the plants exactly what they need, even from the red and blue lights. They don't have to fight through the full spectrum of light to get the lights that they need for photosynthesis. We're giving them those, that exact amount of light that they need for the full 18 hours a day. So if you're traditional farming, you're not getting 18 hours of perfect sunlight. That does just, doesn't happen on a year round basis. You're not giving them the perfect 73 degrees with a nice gentle breeze flowing over their leaves every day, all day for 365 days a year. You're not doing that. So when we talk about efficiency and the output, in my opinion, and because we are hydroponic farmers they just can't, can't compete.
Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (20:34):
No. When we look at what we are in control of, we're using less than five gallons of water a day. And essentially there is no runoff to the water that is given to the plants. Whatever the plants don't absorb is put back into the tank and recirculated once it's re nutrient again. And we have 320 square feet to grow up to three acres of land, which is over 8,800 plants at one time in there. And so the fact that we can control it and achieve a 99% germination rate from the very start, gives us full control of the quality and a consistent quality of products that we produce.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (21:16):
That sounds amazing for somebody over here who's, you know, dealing with 70 to 80% germination in the soil. My hands are dirty. This sounds almost too good to be true. I can't wait to come visit it and see it. My brother lives in Chicago, so on the next trip up, I'm gonna have to get off a little early near Ford Heights. So let's talk about Ford Heights. You put this in a location that, well, anywhere you're gonna put a container ship near the Chicago area is an atypical place for a farm. But Ford Heights what's the draw there? What's the connection? Why on the south side of Chicago?
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (21:55):
To me, that's home. You know, my mother still lives there, so when I go home, that's where I'm going. The house I was born and raised in, my grandmother passed away almost two years now, and she left me the house. So I own a house in that area. So for me, it's going home and it's also reinvesting in home. A lot of folks talk about the bad that comes out of these communities, but they're not doing anything to change the bad. I wanted to change the narrative of what's coming out of that community. I came out of that community and I know lots of folks that came out of that community that I grew up with that are doing really, really good things and that are very successful. And so that was the narrative shift, the narrative change that we wanted was. That's why originally we wanted the farm to be in Fort Heights, to actually talk about what was coming out of Ford Heights, what Fort Heights was producing.
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (22:50):
And it will, we will have a farm in Ford Heights. We're currently working with the school there to try to figure that out. But it was that changing that narrative of what's coming out of my hometown. You know, when I go home, that's where I go. And I don't want people to only know the bad, the poor, the this, the that, all of the preconceived notions of what they have about Ford Heights and communities like it. I wanted it to be, 'did you hear about that hydroponic farm that's in Ford Heights?' That's what I wanted the narrative.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (23:21):
That's really neat. And Ditto Foods is a for-profit company, right? You guys are in business, but you've partnered up with several nonprofits. I mean, you are giving back in all kinds of ways. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (23:35):
Yeah. We are working with Cornerstone Community Center out in Ford Heights. They do a lot of great, they do a lot of training for the staff. They do different things to reeducate the folks out there in the community. They also have a food pantry that distributes food to the folks in the community. So we partner with them to provide produce to the community. We also have one of our lettuce blends called the Butta' Blend. Portions of the proceeds from that goes to support the food pantry and goes to allow us to provide produce to the families in the community at a discounted rate. We recently partnered with the school district in Ford Heights to grow out their hydroponic program. They have a garden group there with about 10 kids. And I went and spoke to them and talked to them about hydroponics, and they're all so excited. It's giving back. You can't talk about things that aren't changing unless you're trying to help make that change happen. And so that's what we're doing. We're being a part of that change and we're glad to be part of the change. And I'm excited to work with other school districts to bring this technology and this education to the kids in the community.
Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (24:59):
And when we developed the mission for Ditto Food, one of the main goals with creating access was not just handing over fresh produce to communities, but it was educating the communities. And it all starts at home. And it all starts at the forefront of educating individuals on how to grow your own produce. And that's our commitment with the schools as we begin to partner with garden clubs and other school districts, is teaching them the new way of food growth, which is how do you grow the most in a limited space that's clean and healthy? And so as we continue to partner with schools and educate them and work with the students on where does your food come from? It all goes back to the reason that we started Ditto Foods, which is providing access and education to multi-levels of generation of what does it mean to get your food and what does it mean to grow your own food.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (25:59):
That sounds awesome. I'm really excited for you guys, and I'm grateful fo how you've poured your life, your career into this mission for your corner of Chicago, right? But you're leading and setting an example and it won't be the last, tell me. What's the future for Ditto Foods? Where do you see this going? More containers, more locations, what?
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (26:27):
Our goal is three farms in five years. And so that is what we're working towards. But we also have a grocery store concept, a grocery store business that we created called Your Home Grocer that also takes that whole shipping container and building out a micro grocer using shipping containers. And a farm will be attached to that grocery store. And we're taking this business to communities like Ford Heights to again, bring the access to the community so that the community can produce for the community. So we have a big, big plan. We have big plans for the business as a whole. So there's the farm, there's the grocery store. We even have a laundromat concept that we have called Buddy Annie's Laundry. When I was a kid, my grandfather managed the local laundromat in Ford Heights.
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (27:23):
And we don't think about it, but that's a thing that most, a lot of those communities don't have. And so they have to get on a bus to travel to the next community or the next town over just to wash their clothes. And so again, when we talk about access, bringing access to the community. So those are the three things that we're looking to build out within the next five to 10 years is to continue to grow the farm business, building out our micro grocer, Your Home Grocer, and the laundromat, your Buddy Annie Laundry.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (27:56):
Wow. Well, you have a fascinating farm in and of itself, and what you're doing is really interesting and thanks for sharing a little bit of the science behind it, how it works. But you've got an even more compelling vision. I'm sure that a lot of our listeners are going to want to be able to follow your story. So if people wanted to connect with you online, follow what's going on and just support you how are they gonna find you?
Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (28:18):
So they can go to our website at dittofoods.com. Support, it can be done through Market Wagon and purchasing directly through them. We also have a seedling program on our website that allows customers to purchase a seedling that's been germinated, and they can start to grow their own produce at home as well. And then you'll see Derek all over TikTok and a new YouTube series of growing in your home with the seedlings as well.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (28:50):
Very, very cool. Derek Drake, Brad Schiever, thank you so much for sharing your story with us on More Than a Mile.
Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (28:57):
Thank you.
Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (28:57):
Thank you so much.
Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (29:05):
Thank you for listening to this episode of More Than a Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market wagon at marketwagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More Than a Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, castbox, podchaser, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Thank you for continuing to support local food.