More Than A Mile

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (00:00):

Thanks for joining us. I think you're going to find this first episode of 2023 as fascinating as I did. It's about a pair of farmers named Derek and Brad, who grow about three acres worth of produce in just 320 square feet. They're using hydroponics to, as Derek put it, replicate Mother Nature at its finest. And for an old dirt farmer like me, it was really fun to talk with them about the science behind this technology. But in between all of the talk about soil science and chemistry and light spectrums, I hope you don't miss the story of endurance and entrepreneurship, perseverance, and above all, the meaningfulness of investing in the place you call home. Enjoy.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (00:45):

Welcome to More Than a Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmers market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than a Mile, and thank you for buying local food. That's one critical step in making an investment in food for future generations. All right, well, I'm really excited. My guests today are Derek Drake and Brad Schiever of Ditto Foods. Really excited to have you guys. Thanks for joining.

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (01:32):

Thanks for having us.

Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (01:33):

Yes, thank you.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (01:33):

You know, some people farm just because they have to, some people get to choose to farm because they want to. And a few people farm because they want to change the world or their corner of the world. And I've been looking forward to this conversation because that describes, I think both you and I, Derek. But our farms look very different. .

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (01:56):

Oh yeah.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (01:58):

So how big's your farm?

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (01:59):

It is a 40 foot shipping container, so 320 square feet.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (02:04):

And where is it sitting right now?

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (02:06):

It's in our driveway in the back of our house

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (02:10):

In the south suburb of Chicago.

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (02:12):

In the south suburbs of Chicago. Yes. On our property. So we take up a very small footprint.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (02:17):

How many cows can you get in that shipping container? I'm just kidding.

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (02:20):

Oh, probably about five.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (02:25):

Ok

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (02:25):

They won't be able to move around, but

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (02:27):

Not a whole lot of grazing inside there,

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (02:29):

. Ok. No,

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (02:30):

This is a fascinating journey. I want to start from the beginning. So 2020, Covid happens. You are senior staff at Kellogg, Northwestern University mm-hmm. . And that comes to an end with a furlough related to Covid. Tell me what happens from there.

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (02:47):

Well, I've always been one of those folks that goes to, all right, what's the next right move for me. In grad school, I've created a business plan for a food truck concept. And it was kind of marrying food truck meets tiny home. And after the furlough, I was like, okay, I want to see if I can do something with this. And started down this long rabbit hole of looking for developers, manufacturers of food trucks and tiny homes and seeing what we can do. And went to Brad and said, all right, I'd like to go down this route. And so I started the search and found this company out of Boston called Freight Farms that manufactures these shipping container farms, and went to Brad and said, I think I wanna be a farmer. I think this is the next right move. And he thought I was crazy. And we started the journey.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (03:52):

And today you're a farmer,

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (03:54):

And today I'm a farmer in a shipping container. Yes.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (03:57):

Take that Brad

New Speaker (03:59):

.

Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (04:00):

Right, Right? It was interesting. It was interesting to say the least for Derek to say, we're gonna grow three acres of farm and three acres of crops in 320 square feet. It took a lot of, a lot of convincing and a lot of research and understanding of what exactly that meant to be a farmer, especially without soil.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (04:21):

Well, I, I want to dive into that for sure. Because I'm a farmer with soil and a lot of it. And and this whole concept is fascinating to me. I think it'll be fascinating to our listeners too. But before we get there, I just wanna, there's a part of this story that I wanna make sure is told because Derek, you are an experienced leader and an executive with an MBA. But you couldn't get bankers to believe that this was a legit business, could you?

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (04:52):

No. Well, you have to, you know, there are a lot of intersectionality going on in that conversation because a.) Trying to first teach them and educate them on what the hell hydroponics was in the first place, and then talk to them about growing in the back of a truck, essentially. And then they were also dealing with the pandemic. So they had PPP loans, and so they weren't sure of what was happening. And then we were telling them, our customers are restaurants, and every restaurant was shut down, . So they were like, so who are you gonna actually sell this stuff to? So we had to shift and pivot our business model. And yeah, it was a challenge. It was a challenge. And then you have to throw on the fact that we couldn't actually go in there and talk to them.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (05:40):

So do you know how many banks said no? Like how many, how many no's did you have to take?

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (05:47):

25. Wow. And those are the ones that actually got back to us that we actually talked to. Cause there were, there were several that never even returned an email or a call.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (05:57):

But the 26th one decided to bet on you, huh?

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (06:01):

Yeah. Yeah. The one yes, that we got, actually, ironically enough came from our second No. After they gave us a no, he reached out to us about three or four months later and was like, you know, I, I really think you guys got something good here. I like what you're trying to do. I have a colleague of mine at another bank, they're a little bit more lenient to lending to startups. Do you mind if I send your information to him? I was like, send whatever you need. What does he need? I'll, I'll send it myself. . And that was the one yes that we got.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (06:34):

Did you ever give up hope?

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (06:36):

I did. Yeah, I did. But I knew what we were trying to accomplish. I knew that it was something good and I knew that if we had it, if we got it, it was gonna be something that was a.) Change our lives and our kids' lives, but also be impactful for the community that I wanted to impact, which is where I grew up in my hometown of Fort Heights. And so that was really what kind of kept us going. But absolutely, after you get No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's really hard to stay going.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (07:13):

So, New Year's Eve, 2021, your farm arrives , which just sounds so funny for me to say. Your farm arrives. How long did it take before your farm was producing food?

Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (07:27):

So we had it delivered December 31st, 2021. And it sat unattended, essentially. Because of the length of this process, we really did not, you know, we anticipated putting the first farm in Ford Heights, and because of how long it took to get financing, multiple changes had taken place with Ford Heights, with the mayor and the board, et cetera. And so when we got approved for the loan and the loan came through in October, we then called Freight Farms and said, you know, we're ready to make payment on the farm. And they said, okay, we can have it to you in a month and a half . And so at this time we're, we're living in a townhouse in Bolingbrook, definitely not a place to drop a 40 foot shipping container. And so we were able to very quickly looking through Zillow one morning, found a house pop up.

Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (08:25):

We didn't plan on moving until summer of '22. And we found this house pop up that had been on the market over a year. And we'd been on Zillow multiple times, never came up until this came up. And Derek's like, look at this. Let's go check it out. So the next day we went and checked it out and as the realtor and I are in the house, we have no idea where Derek's at. And here's Derek in the backyard playing with the neighbor's chickens that decided to come running over. And so we looked at the agent and said, okay, you have a month to make this happen cause we have a farm to drop here. And so it was dropped on New Year's Eve and we were able to get into it finally mid-February. And the first seed was planted March 1st of '22.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (09:14):

When most people say they want a farm and they have to move to farm, they're moving to a place, you know, that is a farm. . You had to move to a place that you could deliver your farm to.

Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (09:31):

Exactly. We had to make sure we could have a farm delivered to where we were living. You know, the great part is where we found essentially is a farm, was a farm, at one time. And so we found, ideally what we had thought we were never gonna find as we thought about moving, which was an acre of land and a place that we could drop a shipping container.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (09:55):

Do you have a well or are you on city water?

Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (09:57):

We are on a well, but we have a water system that produces some of the best water out there at the moment. Our crops are well watered with fantastic, fantastic quality water.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (10:11):

So you said seed in the ground in March. First crops in April?

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (10:14):

Well, not, not quite in the ground.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (10:17):

Well, . See, you can't get it out of my lingo. I can't, I can't not say it. So tell me. Alright, let's do this. Tell me about this process because I start seeds in trays in soil and trays, indoors, ready to be transplanted or we'll direct sow into the soil in our farm. What does seeding look like for you?

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (10:39):

Same process. We have growing trays that we start our seeds in, but the growing media that we use is not soil. It's peat moss/coco coir mix. And we plant our seed, put the humidity domes on, and we germinate, you know, essentially just like,

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (10:58):

That's exactly what I do. Yeah, ok.

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (11:00):

We germinate the same way, except instead of putting it, once it's ready to go, instead of putting it in the ground, we put it in a eight foot tower,

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (11:08):

A tower. Tell me what else is different. So this, this medium, it's not soil, but it's a medium. It's somewhat absorbent, right? It allows the moisture to get to the seed and the roots. What's the plant eat?

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (11:22):

Nutrients. What we do is we replicate the nutrients that they would get from the soil. So the minerals and all the macro and micronutrients that they would get from the soil. And any fertilizer that you feed into the soil, we actually introduce that to the plants through the water, which is, you know, essentially what hydroponics is. It's using water as the conduit to bring the nutrients to the plants.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (11:47):

Okay. And tell me what kind of plants are growing in your farm right now? Lettuce, I assume. Anything else?

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (11:54):

Lettuce, leafy greens, herbs. We've grown root vegetables like carrots and radishes and different types of lettuce. We have about six or seven different types of lettuce, a couple of different types of butterhead, some frisee, lots of different herbs. This time of year we're doing sage, rosemary, basil. So we got a variety, nice variety of things that we grow.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (12:21):

Carrots and radishes too.

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (12:23):

Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And the carrots that we grow, they're not your typical long carrot. They're bulb carrots, so they kind of look like a cylinder radish . So we tell our customers that they can use it just like a radish, like slicing it really thin and using it that way. But yeah, you can grow root vegetables.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (12:45):

That is really cool.

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (12:46):

Yeah. And we're currently right now also trialing cucumbers.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (12:51):

Wow. A vining cucumber. How so? I'm assuming like your lettuce is cut and come back. Some of the other things are single harvest, like your root vegetables mm-hmm. , but a cucumber. How long will that vine live? How will it be determinate? Or will you be harvesting off of it over a long period of time? What's that process look like?

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (13:10):

It's TBD . Cause this is our first time, so we don't really know. Typically in this sort of environment vining isn't an ideal crop.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (13:26):

It's not space efficient.

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (13:27):

Exactly.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (13:28):

Not very space efficient

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (13:30):

And in a vertical format as well. So there's a lot of rigging that we'll have to do once the vines themselves get too heavy to mm-hmm. to hold themselves up. We'll have to do some rigging and figure that process out. But like I said, it's new for us. We just recently transplanted some cucumber plants, so still working it out.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (13:51):

That is really impressive. And that's exactly what entrepreneurship is about. Right? It's like, ready, fire, aim, Hey, let's try cucumbers, , . If the vine gets too heavy, then we'll put a different wire in there, I guess. Yeah. Just figure it out. Yeah. Very cool. Tell me can you notice any difference in the flavor or taste or quality from what comes out of your shipping container versus what may come out of the soil?

Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (14:15):

Oh, yeah. Yeah. There is a, I don't want to necessarily use the term clean, but there's a freshness to the lettuce that comes out. The kale specifically has just a raw, crisp flavor to it. The texture is incredible. The lettuce has a great flavor and moisture to it. And the best part is that when you're doing full head, once they're harvested, especially for those that we sell, the root is still on. So those nutrients, it's not dead when it's at the store, even delivered to the customer's home, it's still living, put in a cup of water and it's gonna stay fresh and crisp for two weeks or more.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (15:02):

Oh, that's great. Yeah, because that's the biggest thing with store bought lettuce is you start the clock when you take that thing off the shelf. Exactly. Yeah. Sometimes the clock's already been running a little too long while it's on the shelf .

Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (15:14):

Well, and a lot of it is, especially some of the bag lettuce, has been cut and harvested and washed, and it's two weeks old by the time you pick it up in the store. So when you get it home and you open it up and you wonder why it lasts two days, well, because it's been dead for quite some time

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (15:29):

On our farm, we had just started this year, a greenhouse, it's a high tunnel. We're doing some winter growing, spinach lettuces kale and broccoli as well. But we're still using the sun for our light source. You are in a dark shipping container. It is opaque by design. Tell me, is there any reason why you don't augment light with maybe like a clear cover on the, on the container ship? Is there a particular benefit you get by being able to control the exact spectrums of light that you're producing inside your farm?

Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (16:05):

Yeah, the plants need the red and blue light for photosynthesis. And with the sunlight it has all of the other colors it has to fight through to get exactly what it needs. And so the best part of container farming and hydroponic farming is we give the plants exactly what they need. And so we're giving them 18 hours of pure red and blue light for the strongest photosynthesis possible, which allows us to be able to produce a crop from seed to harvest in six weeks.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (16:47):

So you can accelerate the growth by concentrating on only the light spectrums that that plant's gonna need to produce the leaves that people are gonna eat.

Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (16:57):

Exactly. And the cool part about the farm that we have from Freight Farms is we have their most recent model. And so they have three different modes to it, essentially, which we're running in performance mode currently, which allows for that six week growth cycle. It's getting the exact light, nutrients and water that it needs, while still being sustainable, even though it is in performance mode.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (17:20):

What about the light spectrum needed for this, it's a fruiting plant flowering and fruiting is what cucumbers are. A lot of people don't think of cucumbers as fruit, but, the science geek here, it's a fruit. And that takes a different spectrum, doesn't it?

Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (17:36):

A little bit different temperature necessarily. So with the farm, we can go ahead and program in there what we're growing. And so it has built in automatically what's called recipes. So wow. Right now, because we're experimenting with root vegetables, the farm is still set to grow lettuce and leafy greens, which is a cool weather crop, essentially. Mm-Hmm. . And so the light, the water, the nutrients its delivering is based upon lettuce. And so that is one thing we're working with the cucumbers, is not just the vining, but it's also a little bit of a different environment. Mm-Hmm. . Yep. We're still having wild success with the strength of the vine itself, as well as the amount of flowers being produced out of it.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (18:22):

How will you handle pollination?

Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (18:24):

So there is actually the ability, it's pretty basic. It's taking just like a toothbrush and rubbing it against the flower.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (18:32):

Yeah. So you'll manually pollinate.

Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (18:34):

It will be manual pollination. But again, the flowers that we're seeing are incredible right now.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (18:42):

I assume you don't want to release a hive of bees inside of your container ship.

Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (18:47):

No, no. We're gonna try and control that part of it as well.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (18:50):

Controlled environment's gotta be the most beneficial there. I have a hive on our property. But definitely try to steer clear of it. I wouldn't wanna be inside a container ship with it.

Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (19:02):

. No, I don't think so.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (19:03):

This is really fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing and just educating us on hydroponics. Is there anything else I've not asked? What do you find the most surprising about growing this way versus backyard gardening even?

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (19:20):

I would say the efficiency and how fast the crop grows. When you're replicating nature, we're replicating nature at its best. So it is always a perfect sunny day. It is always the perfect air temperature. It is always the perfect amount of air flow. So we're replicating nature at its finest. And when you do that, you're literally given the plants exactly what they need, even from the red and blue lights. They don't have to fight through the full spectrum of light to get the lights that they need for photosynthesis. We're giving them those, that exact amount of light that they need for the full 18 hours a day. So if you're traditional farming, you're not getting 18 hours of perfect sunlight. That does just, doesn't happen on a year round basis. You're not giving them the perfect 73 degrees with a nice gentle breeze flowing over their leaves every day, all day for 365 days a year. You're not doing that. So when we talk about efficiency and the output, in my opinion, and because we are hydroponic farmers they just can't, can't compete.

Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (20:34):

No. When we look at what we are in control of, we're using less than five gallons of water a day. And essentially there is no runoff to the water that is given to the plants. Whatever the plants don't absorb is put back into the tank and recirculated once it's re nutrient again. And we have 320 square feet to grow up to three acres of land, which is over 8,800 plants at one time in there. And so the fact that we can control it and achieve a 99% germination rate from the very start, gives us full control of the quality and a consistent quality of products that we produce.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (21:16):

That sounds amazing for somebody over here who's, you know, dealing with 70 to 80% germination in the soil. My hands are dirty. This sounds almost too good to be true. I can't wait to come visit it and see it. My brother lives in Chicago, so on the next trip up, I'm gonna have to get off a little early near Ford Heights. So let's talk about Ford Heights. You put this in a location that, well, anywhere you're gonna put a container ship near the Chicago area is an atypical place for a farm. But Ford Heights what's the draw there? What's the connection? Why on the south side of Chicago?

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (21:55):

To me, that's home. You know, my mother still lives there, so when I go home, that's where I'm going. The house I was born and raised in, my grandmother passed away almost two years now, and she left me the house. So I own a house in that area. So for me, it's going home and it's also reinvesting in home. A lot of folks talk about the bad that comes out of these communities, but they're not doing anything to change the bad. I wanted to change the narrative of what's coming out of that community. I came out of that community and I know lots of folks that came out of that community that I grew up with that are doing really, really good things and that are very successful. And so that was the narrative shift, the narrative change that we wanted was. That's why originally we wanted the farm to be in Fort Heights, to actually talk about what was coming out of Ford Heights, what Fort Heights was producing.

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (22:50):

And it will, we will have a farm in Ford Heights. We're currently working with the school there to try to figure that out. But it was that changing that narrative of what's coming out of my hometown. You know, when I go home, that's where I go. And I don't want people to only know the bad, the poor, the this, the that, all of the preconceived notions of what they have about Ford Heights and communities like it. I wanted it to be, 'did you hear about that hydroponic farm that's in Ford Heights?' That's what I wanted the narrative.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (23:21):

That's really neat. And Ditto Foods is a for-profit company, right? You guys are in business, but you've partnered up with several nonprofits. I mean, you are giving back in all kinds of ways. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (23:35):

Yeah. We are working with Cornerstone Community Center out in Ford Heights. They do a lot of great, they do a lot of training for the staff. They do different things to reeducate the folks out there in the community. They also have a food pantry that distributes food to the folks in the community. So we partner with them to provide produce to the community. We also have one of our lettuce blends called the Butta' Blend. Portions of the proceeds from that goes to support the food pantry and goes to allow us to provide produce to the families in the community at a discounted rate. We recently partnered with the school district in Ford Heights to grow out their hydroponic program. They have a garden group there with about 10 kids. And I went and spoke to them and talked to them about hydroponics, and they're all so excited. It's giving back. You can't talk about things that aren't changing unless you're trying to help make that change happen. And so that's what we're doing. We're being a part of that change and we're glad to be part of the change. And I'm excited to work with other school districts to bring this technology and this education to the kids in the community.

Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (24:59):

And when we developed the mission for Ditto Food, one of the main goals with creating access was not just handing over fresh produce to communities, but it was educating the communities. And it all starts at home. And it all starts at the forefront of educating individuals on how to grow your own produce. And that's our commitment with the schools as we begin to partner with garden clubs and other school districts, is teaching them the new way of food growth, which is how do you grow the most in a limited space that's clean and healthy? And so as we continue to partner with schools and educate them and work with the students on where does your food come from? It all goes back to the reason that we started Ditto Foods, which is providing access and education to multi-levels of generation of what does it mean to get your food and what does it mean to grow your own food.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (25:59):

That sounds awesome. I'm really excited for you guys, and I'm grateful fo how you've poured your life, your career into this mission for your corner of Chicago, right? But you're leading and setting an example and it won't be the last, tell me. What's the future for Ditto Foods? Where do you see this going? More containers, more locations, what?

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (26:27):

Our goal is three farms in five years. And so that is what we're working towards. But we also have a grocery store concept, a grocery store business that we created called Your Home Grocer that also takes that whole shipping container and building out a micro grocer using shipping containers. And a farm will be attached to that grocery store. And we're taking this business to communities like Ford Heights to again, bring the access to the community so that the community can produce for the community. So we have a big, big plan. We have big plans for the business as a whole. So there's the farm, there's the grocery store. We even have a laundromat concept that we have called Buddy Annie's Laundry. When I was a kid, my grandfather managed the local laundromat in Ford Heights.

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (27:23):

And we don't think about it, but that's a thing that most, a lot of those communities don't have. And so they have to get on a bus to travel to the next community or the next town over just to wash their clothes. And so again, when we talk about access, bringing access to the community. So those are the three things that we're looking to build out within the next five to 10 years is to continue to grow the farm business, building out our micro grocer, Your Home Grocer, and the laundromat, your Buddy Annie Laundry.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (27:56):

Wow. Well, you have a fascinating farm in and of itself, and what you're doing is really interesting and thanks for sharing a little bit of the science behind it, how it works. But you've got an even more compelling vision. I'm sure that a lot of our listeners are going to want to be able to follow your story. So if people wanted to connect with you online, follow what's going on and just support you how are they gonna find you?

Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (28:18):

So they can go to our website at dittofoods.com. Support, it can be done through Market Wagon and purchasing directly through them. We also have a seedling program on our website that allows customers to purchase a seedling that's been germinated, and they can start to grow their own produce at home as well. And then you'll see Derek all over TikTok and a new YouTube series of growing in your home with the seedlings as well.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (28:50):

Very, very cool. Derek Drake, Brad Schiever, thank you so much for sharing your story with us on More Than a Mile.

Brad Schiever (Ditto Foods) (28:57):

Thank you.

Derek Drake (Ditto Foods) (28:57):

Thank you so much.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (29:05):

Thank you for listening to this episode of More Than a Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market wagon at marketwagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More Than a Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, castbox, podchaser, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Thank you for continuing to support local food.

 

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Thank you for tuning into our holiday episode. Today you are going to hear a great story of Jody. It’s an entrepreneurial success story in small town America. Jody is a farmer’s wife. Her family wanted to reinvigorate the dying downtown of a small Indiana community. So they started a small homey business and they called it The Homestead and it’s just grown from there. They’re in two locations now. They have a blossoming eCommerce business. But the origin story is due to this farmer’s wife being a busy mom—they had 5 girls in 6 years—and she didn’t want to be stuck in the kitchen any time they had friends or family over. So she learned some tricks about how to have frozen meals ready to pull out and heat up and today she’s sharing those with you. As CEO and chief cook of The Homestead, she’s going to talk about some of her tricks. We’re going to talk about one of my favorites, the Indiana state pie, a delicacy called the sugar cream pie, so listen in for that. She’s going to have some inspiring advice for would-be entrepreneurs and letting you know why it’s important to know where your food comes from. Thanks for tuning in. Enjoy.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Welcome to More Than a Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmers market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than a Mile, and thank you for buying local food. It's one critical step in making an investment in food for future generations. My guest today is Jody Bahler, the CEO, founder and chief cook at The Homestead. Jody, thanks for joining us.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Hi Nick. How are you?

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

I'm doing great. Good. So we are doing this recording virtually, but we could have gotten together. You are just an hour away from where I'm at in Indianapolis, up in Remington, Indiana. Right? Yep. I know that you've got a background in farming. Do you and your husband still farm?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Yes, absolutely. That's Mike. And Mike farms with his two brothers. so it's a hundred year farm here in Indiana and that's where we've lived since we've been married and raised our five girls.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

That is so cool.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

I grew up on a dairy farm and married a hog farmer, so I got an ag background myself, .

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

So you grew up on a dairy farm where at?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

I grew up in Kansas, little town of Lamont, Kansas. Teeny tiny town near Emporia State University, Kansas State University. So that was where I began.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

So I grew up on a dairy farm too. Not really heavy in production because we had gotten rid of the milking equipment. So I just bred. What did you raise? What, do you know what breed? Holsteins, of course.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Yep.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Yeah. Very cool. So you were no stranger to the farm life when your husband, Mike decided to whisk you off to the farm life in Indiana?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Nope. Absolutely not.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

How'd the two of you meet?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

We actually met through our church. We did a lot of traveling and back and forth with our church network across the United States, and we had met through that. And so that was, that was, yeah, that was primarily how we met and got acquainted.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Oh, that's neat. So moved Indiana, how many daughters did you say?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

We have five girls.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Five girls. Are they, are any of 'em still in the house or have they moved on?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Our oldest is still home. Um, she's 26, and then we have twin girls that are 25. Then we have, we had two girls after that. So youngest is, is 20, they range anywhere from 20 to 26. And the oldest is the only one single and living at home still. She's an RN and works in Lafayette,

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

So she's a nurse. So she took that on after you as well. I'm understanding you're a nurse.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

She did, she did. She followed in my footsteps. .

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Cool. So tell me a little bit about what it's like to raise five girls on a farm in rural Indiana.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Well, it's been a good life. I wouldn't trade it. We love the country life. We love, we loved being able to raise our girls on the farm and to know what hard work means. It's all I've known, it's all my husband Mike and I have ever known. So it was, it's a life that we love and cherish and we're thankful that we were able to raise our girls on the farm. So it's a lot of hard work. It's not a nine to five job, but it's, it's hard work and there's a lot of, of variety and diversity. Um, and so yeah, it was, you know, they weren't necessarily involved with the, the farming operation and neither was I. I was actually working as a nurse at the time that the girls that we were raising our family, um, stayed home with them for a few years, but then I went into school nursing once they started into school, but however, they weren't, um, specifically involved. They, they did some, some things but not a lot. Because my husband actually farms with two other brothers and there was, you know, it's, it's a large operation, so there was not a lot that they really helped with, but they were definitely involved with the day-to-day activities that were going on.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

It's an extended family farm, it sounds like.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Yep.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Got a lot of nieces and nephews involved in the operation?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

There's some nephews that are, that are involved now that they're a little bit older. Yes.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Got it. Now, as you, um, you were a, a working mom, your husband is working hard on the farm, your kids are in school, but I understand that kind of a background here behind The Homestead as a business is just this desire to have good family dinners, right?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

It is, and that is something that's always been important to me, raising my girls. I love to cook and bake and the years that I did spend at home, because we had five girls in six years, I was a very busy mom at home for several years before I went back into nursing. But I would spend my days preparing quantity food and freezing them to be pulled out and used for later date when I had an extra busy day when there was harvest and there was meal, you know, late meals and whatnot. It was the way I kept myself organized and it was nice to just know that I had food prepared in the freezer to pull out for those specific things or, you know, if there were guests that dropped by, I was prepared. So I also did some catering for various friends around the area and it was an interest of mine. I just really liked to do that. Those ideas were kind of the first beginning baby steps. Little did we know at the time, but that was really the, the reason that was really the, the way we founded Homestead was kind of that beginning. How can this help other families do the same thing that we did?

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Where did you learn to cook Jody?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

I learned to cook from my mother, of course, yeah, my grandmother. Both my grandmothers were very good cooks as well as my mom. We're not gourmet cooks, we're just good, you know, Midwestern down home cooks. But I definitely learned from my mom. I also self taught a lot of things as I was married and moved away from home. And it's interesting because I collect cookbooks, which of course is probably to be expected, but I read a cookbook like a novel, and I just, I just, I enjoy it and I feel like I learn something every day and I, you know, especially my early years of marriage when I was really learning, I would sit down when Mike was out late, I would read these cookbooks and I would meal plan and prep, and I really learned a lot about organization that way. I learned how to kind of mix and match recipes to kind of create my own and so, you know, it just kind of became a real hobby almost.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Now, some of the recipes I'm sure that you had passed down that you learned from mom and grandma were designed to come straight out of the oven onto the table. Was there, was there a lot of learning and adaptation to take a recipe that would go from the kitchen into the freezer, out of the freezer, into the oven to the table?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Not necessarily. There are some that you, that just aren't really adaptable to that, but a lot of recipes, and people would be surprised by this, because there are just a lot of, most things that you can freeze and be successful with. My mom did a lot of that as well. So I guess, you know, she kind of taught me those, the foundation, the basics of doing that and you know, how to be organized in that way. And then, it just grew from there.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

So it sounds like the idea was preparedness. You, you wanted to be able, when you had a busy day or you said, when guests show up, right, to just be able to say, Hey, stay for dinner.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Right. Or, you know, we host a lot of company, we have a lot of friends that come in, family come from out of town or whatever. And it was much less stressful to me to be able to prep ahead, know that I had the food prepared in the freezer I would pull out later to thaw. And it, it just created a lot less work for me, um, busyness in the kitchen while I had guests. And so, you know, I could relax and enjoy my time with my company or my family without stressing over, 'man, I gotta make this from, from beginning to end.' You know, it, the hard work was done, the kitchen wasn't a disaster, , and it just really made my life a lot easier.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Well, I think for a lot of people, you know, hospitality is somewhat of a lost art and one of the most stressful parts about having folks over for dinner is, is the dinner part, right? It is, 'oh, I'm not much of a cook, and that's so much work.' But you really had some intentionality to be prepared in advance so that you could be that hostess.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Right. That was my goal. Um, that was your goal and it seemed to work for us.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Now you are sharing that ability with others. So you took this idea of a family meal around the table that's simple without a lot of stress, and you turned it into a product that you could help other people have at their tables. Tell me, when did you start doing that? When did that become the idea?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

So we started thinking about this in 2000, really the fall of 2009. We honestly had never thought about creating a business, so to speak with this in mind. But there was a property that was available in Remington and part of our family had an interest in doing something to help our downtown kind of invigorate the town, do something. We just kind of tossed around some ideas. Is this something we even want to get involved with? Then the idea was born. My sister-in-law who was also involved in some of these decisions really liked the bulk food concept, which you see in a lot of, um, Amish type communities that, you know, you buy everything in bulk and, and then package 'em down. A lot of the candies and the gummies and the chocolates repackaged down into sellable quantities that people are gonna wanna grab and go.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

And so, you know, that was her interest. We kind of paired that together with like, hey, okay, I love to, I love to cook, I love to bake, I love to cater. And I've kind of dabbled in that with friends around the area and we've also got five young daughters growing up. Could this really be something that we could create moving forward as a family business and do something worthwhile for our community? And so that was when the idea was born. In the fall of 2009, we created the business that we named The Homestead. We wanted to have a very homey feel, I guess just so to speak, something that had a little bit of meaning behind it. We launched The Homestead in the spring of 2010.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

And we were happy with what it was. We created the, you know, we wanted a warm, homey, welcoming atmosphere. We, we had, looking back, you know, it's been a journey. We started out with very minimal few options. Looking back at photos, the store looked very sparse. So it's just, you know, it it is what it is, right? That's part of growing a business. And so in, in these last, you know, since 2010 we've just continued to grow and expand. We realized that there was really, I guess it sort of started out with more, we were more in the mindset of kind of a hobby business. Not really, not really, let's go for the gusto, just more of a let's let's have a fun thing to do, you know? And then we quickly realized that there was more need for that, what we were offering.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

And I still remember the very first casserole that I made to sell to customers was the chicken and rice casserole. We still sell it today. It's still a very much a top seller. That was the one that I remembered trying and we'd make just, you know, I made just a few and stuck them out in the freezer and the concept just took off and people were loving the ability to come in and find something that was ready made and ready to pop in the oven. So, um, you know, that's, that was, we've just, we've just kind of taken one step at a time and grown from there. And, you know, now we offer quite a few items.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Was there ever a point in the last, you know, 13 years now since you've had this idea, was there ever a point where you, you said to yourself, maybe this isn't worth it? Uh, maybe, maybe, uh, maybe I was crazy

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Honestly, yes, probably more than once. . But, you know, I also believe that anything worthwhile is hard work. And I also believe that nothing worthwhile comes easy. Starting a business is not for the faint of heart. It's a difficult road. And, you know, just trying to find what works for your business, what works for the demographics in your area, what customers are gonna want, you know, dealing with all of the costing, the inputs, the math, figuring all that out as a young entrepreneur, which is something I didn't go to school for, my husband didn't go to school for. That was very much, it's been very much a learning curve and at times, yes, felt exasperating, you know? Because it is not an an easy road, but when you see the momentum behind it that what is happening and it, you know, it just, it just makes it worth it all. It really does.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Yeah. I think it's one thing to know how to make a delicious meal at home. It's another thing to know exactly to the penny, what that meal costs per serving, and then know what to charge for it at the door. Right?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, also when you're dealing with small home recipes, although I was multiplying and doing freezer food ahead, it's nothing like we do today as far as quantity, you know? So getting all that figured out has been quite a journey for us, quite a process. But it is, looking back, we've come a long way

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

If there's anybody listening right now who has a love for cooking just like you do, loves to organize and wants to be able to share that gift with others, what's one piece of advice you could think of to share with a cook, a chef who's thinking about jumping out and doing just what you did 13 years ago and hasn't quite taken that leap. What's one thing you wish you could tell 2009, Jody?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

I think what I would say is if you truly have a heart passion for something and you have your eyes set on a vision and a dream, move forward and don't look back. There's just something about, at least for me, that sense of satisfaction that I am doing what I love, although hard, and not easy. It's still something deep within that I know I'm supposed to do. We've just, you know, we've felt, um, you know, sometimes you wonder, is this the right thing to do? Should we do this or do that? But it, you know, it seems like about the time we always wonder, something falls in place that just gives us that little glimpse of hope that, okay, we're on the right track, we need, you know, let's just keep putting one foot in front of the other and move forward.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Very cool. I think that resonates with a lot of entrepreneurial stories is, I always say, ready, fire, aim. Right? You know, you know where you want to get to. Yes, you may not have all the details worked out, but starting is the hardest part. So yeah, I'm glad you started. Now, somewhere along the way, this must have been going pretty well, because now you're in two locations. So you opened your second location in West Lafayette. Tell me, you know, how did you grow to double the size of your business that way?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

We had an offer, somebody actually showed up in our Remington store one day. It was an owner who had some property in West Lafayette and he had a space lease available that was open for a restaurant-type of business. And he approached us, had heard about us, and wondered if this was something that we would want to expand in. And it really is something that we had thought about, you know, growing our business outside of Remington, but just not sure how that would look. We again, we just kind of took that step of faith. Faith plays a big part in this role. It just, it's just, like I said, you kind of step out and you just trust that this is the right decision. We opened that store, totally reset the store and opened that location five years ago and it immediately took off. It's in West Lafayette near Purdue.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Go Boilers.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Go boilers. And it's definitely, you know, it's a different demographics down there. Yes, it's an ag community, but not quite as closely related ag as we are here, right in, you know, right in the country roads of Remington. But you know, you got a lot more working people and Purdue close by and it really caught on.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

So you've got more like busy professionals as opposed to other fellow farmers coming by and and picking up dinner from you?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

We do, and I would tend to say that here in Remington we have a lot more folks that are probably stay-at-home moms that maybe do their own cooking. That's just what they're used to, where maybe in Lafayette, west Lafayette area, you have probably more working class people that don't take the time to cook at home. Knowing they have something they can stop for has been a big benefit to them. So we actually outgrew that location and then a couple years ago we actually was it just, it was just last summer my, um, yeah, , it was just last July because we just had our one year anniversary in that location. We actually moved to a larger location on Win Hentschel Boulevard in West Lafayette, and we were able to put in a large 16 foot salad bar. So that was an addition to the location that we had there. It was a great move. We're happy there. We love it. It's got great curb appeal and it's done very well in that location.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Very cool. So shifting gears just a little bit, what percentage of your customers do you know, uh, I guess personally or that you could recognize when they walk in, you've got a connection and you know who they are and you've seen 'em before?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

You know, here in Remington, I would say I would say 60 to 70%.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Yeah.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

But we also pull a lot of people off the interstate, people that see our sign that, you know, are drawn in.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

You get some almost tourist traffic in there?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

We do. And it's just grown so much that I don't know if that's as high as it used to be, but new faces every day in both locations. Now, I personally don't know as many in West Lafayette just because of, I don't live in the area, but, you know, we definitely have our repeaters every day. We've got new people coming in. What we have found is the best way to advertise is word of mouth. You have a good product, you have good service, that word gets out and people will come.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Now, what's your favorite recipe? If you were to take something from your inventory at the, at the store, if you were to be your own customer, take it home and that's gonna be dinner for you and your husband, what would it be?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

My personal favorite is the chicken broccoli and rice casserole, and that is our number one seller. So apparently other people like it as well. So many favorites of mine because obviously my favorites are the ones that I'm gonna tend to offer to our customers. So I like, I love them all. As far as the pie, the sugar cream pie is probably one of my favorite pies, which is the Indiana state pie. That's

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Is it?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

It is.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

I knew it was an Indiana thing. Yeah. Did you make sugar cream pie when you were living in Kansas? Or did you discover that recipe when you became a Hoosier?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Discovered it as a Hoosier. I had never heard of it in Kansas it's introduced in Kansas now.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Oh. Oh, I bet you better take those home to some family gatherings, right?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Sure, Yep.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

I would bet that more than half of our listeners have never heard of a sugar cream pie. And you are missing out. You're missing out.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

You are, you are. Yep. So I love 'em all. I'm like my father. He says he likes two kinds of pie, hot or cold. And that's kind of the way, that's kind where I'm at, really

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

, two kinds of pie, hot or cold. I love that. . So as far as local food goes, I mean, you're a fixture in your community. You're in Remington and West Lafayette, and for those of you who are listening, you are not familiar with Indiana geography. They're not far apart. You're really plugged into your local community. And you even said you wanted to start this because you wanted to revitalize downtown Remington, so the downtown may have been getting a little, a little sleepy.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Yeah.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

So, what about on the producer side? We've talked about your customers, but where do your ingredients come from? Do you get anything locally?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

We do get some things locally. Most of our ingredients come from a small town, a small family-owned supplier, Stanz Food Service, which is originated out of South Bend. We have several vendors that we purchase from, but that's probably the biggest one that we purchased from. As far as some of our ingredients come from, like our flours and our sugars come from, Dutch Valley out of Pennsylvania, which is a large Amish settlement. And, in that area that there's a large production of those types of things. That's where a lot of our gummies, our chocolates, our bulk stuff comes from. We buy a lot of our flours and sugars out of that area delivered. A lot of our jar goods come from Holmes County, Ohio, which is another large Amish settlement. There's canneries out there that actually can our jar goods like our jams and jellies and salsas and that sort of thing. Our peaches, our pears. Those are canned out in Ohio and shipped to us.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Wow. That's fantastic.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Yeah, we don't actually make those things, those things are shipped to us, but we are making, we're making the frozen line here in Remington.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Your canned items in the flour and sugar, you said you don't, you don't make those, but you know the people who do right?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

We do, yes. Yeah. Yes, we buy our noodles. We buy our noodles from an Amish family up in Middlebury, Indiana. We've actually watched them make them, and so, you know, there's, we definitely do use some fairly local items.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

It sounds like it. And even if they're not right there from Indiana, local isn't just a matter of where it comes from, although, you know, that sounds like it'd be the key thing, but knowing just a relationship to the source of where it comes from. To say, 'oh, we know this community in Pennsylvania and we know what they do together and we know how they produce the food.' And that's where you've chosen to get your bulk items from. I love that.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Absolutely. Yep.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Is there anything that you guys grow on your farm yourself that gets made into food at The Homestead?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

So we use some of our own ground sausage, some of our own pork because we are pork producers. We definitely use some of our own pork in our store. Not a hundred percent because it depends on, you know, market time and all that when there's hogs ready and available to go in. So it's not a hundred percent, but we definitely use a lot of our own ground pork in our recipes.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

That's awesome. Jody, it's been so great to learn about your business and how your passion and just your leadership and your family has now bled over into blessing tables far and wide, now through Market Wagon delivered all throughout central Indiana. Do you connect with people who maybe you don't even see their face in your store in Remington, but through Market Wagon? Are you connecting online with more and more families?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

We are. It's amazing. We've been, we have been affiliated with Market Wagon now for a little over a year, and it's been, you know, we started out, our first pick ticket was 20 items. Now today we've brought as high as a hundred items for delivery. So it's definitely growing and expanding. We see a lot of repeat customers, which we feel like is great because that means they love our products and hey're buying again and again and again. So we've been really happy with our Market Wagon association. It's been a great way to expand our product line into areas that we can't get to personally with our own stores.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

And at the time we're recording this, we are just a couple weeks away from Thanksgiving, and then of course, Christmas right around the corner. The holidays are a time when food really brings people together. It's a glue right, that, community and family bonds are built around. So your recipes are no doubt gonna be on Thanksgiving tables. They're gonna be on Christmas tables, there are gonna be holiday get togethers and in fellowship halls and in kitchens and garages where families get together just like ours has for years and years. The Homestead's gonna be there. Do you have any holiday favorites or even some seasonal recipes that might be just released for a limited release this coming couple of months?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Absolutely, we do. We have some seasonal ones that we, we rotate in and out as seasons come and go. Obviously pumpkin pie is one that we do not offer year round, but it's one that we offer October, November, December. Actually I think we even start in September offering pumpkin pie. It is definitely offered on Market Wagon this time of year and as well as several of our pies going into the Thanksgiving season. That will be big sellers for us. We also here in our retail stores offer my mom's holiday dressing or stuffing as some people call it. That's an item that we roll out at the holiday, um, is a great seller. So it's not something that everybody loves to make, and it's just, my mom has a great recipe. It's just something we've reproduced and, and have offered to customers. We also offer the Sweet potato praline or Praline Sweet potato casserole. It's a mashed sweet potato with almost like a candied pecan.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Oh, I'm very familiar. Oh, yeah. This is a staple at our farming family get togethers too. My wife hates it. She's, she shouldn't, shouldn't say she hates it. She does remind me that it's a dessert, not a side. And I tell her no, it's definitely a side dish counts as a vegetable . Um, I think things like that are, they come from rural or farming communities and, it's interesting how my wife, I married an urbanite. Okay. She doesn't, she doesn't relate to the same recipe. She's not as,

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

You can't quite not appreciate it .

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

I, well I'm working on it

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

. Well, sweet potatoes is one of those things. Maybe you either like, you love or you do not like, and, but yeah, it, it, it could almost be classified as a dessert. It's very, you know, it's got that sweet crunch on top and it's, it's fabulous people, people love it. So

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

I've often wondered what the difference in the recipe actually is between the filling of a sweet potato pie and a sweet potato casserole. And I'm guessing they're pretty similar

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

I'm sure they're, they probably have lots of sugar and butter . And one thing I mentioning that, one thing I will note, obviously I mentioned early on is I grew up on a dairy farm. Here at The Homestead, we use only real butter. That's something that I will not, I will not compromise quality and we don't, we don't use any margarine or anything like that. Everything is real butter. So we definitely try to use quality, quality ingredients to create the best, um, quality that we can.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

So, real cream in that sugar cream pie?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Actually, that recipe doesn't actually call for real cream. It calls for milk, but it gets its richness from a lot of butter.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Okay. So it's milk and butter.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Yeah

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Got it. And speaking of pies, are customers able to pre-order their pies for the holidays on Market Wagon?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Absolutely. I believe that we do have some pre-orders. I will have to check on that, but I know that we definitely have them on, um, open and I believe starting this week we have pies available.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Yeah, well, sugar cream pie from The Homestead is gonna be at a Carter dinner coming up in the next couple weeks, if not several

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

. Okay, sounds great.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Jody, does your family back in Kansas still farm dairy?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

My father has retired from the dairy, but my brother, um, farms a lot of acreage out there and dad helps them. So the ag the ag tradition continues.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

That is great to hear because that's a rarity and so I'm really encouraged to hear that.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Yep. It's a good life.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Other than MarketWagon.com, where else can customers find you online? Are you on Facebook, Twitter? Do you have a website?

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

We have a website, HomesteadButtery.com. They can also find us on Instagram, Facebook. We also outsource some of our products. We sell to a few companies. We sell wholesale. Some of our pastries are in all of the Copper Moon coffee shops here in Lafayette. So that's been fun. We sell our scones and sweet rolls and cookies and things like that to all the Copper Moon shops here locally. We sell to a couple of meat markets in outlying towns, and it's amazing how well those products go in these small towns. I think it's just, again, it's another source for something that's quick. They know it's homemade, they know it's got quality ingredients and they can taste the difference.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

So it's become, it's become quite popular in those places as well. It's very humbling to know that something that we have created here in small town Remington has expanded to tables across Indiana. And I don't know that we always realize the impact that that is making on a daily basis, but we have commented to ourselves before, you know, on Thanksgiving Day, how many dinner rolls must be out on people, you know, how many dinner rolls must be, are being served today and that other families are enjoying that, you know, The Homestead's created. It's just such a heartwarming,it's a warm fuzzy feeling to know that you have created something that other families are now enjoying.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

It just strikes me how many, not just how many dinner rolls, but how many times you have enabled a family to sit down around a meal when they might not have otherwise been able to do that. When they may have been rushing out to a restaurant or fast food or takeout or going their different directions. But to have mom, dad, and kids sit down to eat, even if it's in a hurry, I mean, we've got kids in sports, we're rushing out to practice and events and Right. It happens. But, um, to be able to sit down and have a meal together, um, I think is a lost art as a family. And I think that you've empowered people to be able to do that.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Well, I hope so. And it's really a neat feeling to know that, at least our efforts are going toward that cause and it is a crazy world. It's a busy world and we ourselves, we're so on the go. In fact, just this last weekend, our five girls were home and I served breakfast burritos that we had that we make here at The Homestead. And I told Mike, I said, I am really thankful for this place called The Homestead because I can, I could go grab and go. I'm busy, I'm working.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

You're your own client.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

I am, I am. And I, so you know that I do realize how nice it is to have it available.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Jodi Baylor, CEO of the Homestead, thank you so much for sharing your story and just letting us know what life is like for a small Indiana startup entrepreneur like you.

Jody Bahler (The Homestead):

Well, thank you for the opportunity that you've given us to expand our products to that, to the Indy area and down there. Um, and we look forward to continuing to partner with Market Wagon and grow in that way. So appreciate it.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO):

Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than a Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market wagon@marketwagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us at Market Wagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly, friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More than a Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, cast box poder, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Thank you for continuing to support local food.

 

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (00:00):

Hello, and thanks for joining the podcast. My guest today is Dr. Sara Skinner. She's the owner of Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms. And with Veterans Day on Friday, it just seemed appropriate to share her journey to becoming a mushroom farmer because it's directly connected the time that she spent in the Army. And she may have left the Army 12 years ago, but she's never really stopped advocating for veterans. She's now a professor of social work at the University of Georgia. She's even designed courses that help other clinicians working with veterans and military families. And as you're about to hear, while she has no desire to be the mushroom queen, farming itself has really become an important part of her healing process because of the hope that's found in growing things and investing in the future.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (00:46):

Welcome to More Than a Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmer's market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than a Mile, and thank you for buying local food. It's one critical step in making an investment in food for future generations. Well, my guest today is Sara. Sara, thanks for joining us.

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (01:28):

Yeah, no problem.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (01:29):

I love your story. At time of recording, we are coming up on Veterans Day. So it's a time of year everybody acknowledges, you know, the sacrifices veterans have made throughout the generations in our country. Seems like every day's Veteran's Day for you though, right? This is a lived reality.

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (01:48):

That is true.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (01:49):

So we're gonna talk about your service and how that's brought us around to growing mushrooms. I just want to start at the beginning and first of all, say thank you for serving our country to you and your husband.

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (02:02):

Thank you for your support.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (02:04):

Of course. How did you get, you know, today you're a mushroom farmer. You started in the Army. How did you get, how did you decide to join the army right out of high school?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (02:14):

. So I didn't actually, So I grew up as a military brat. My dad was a, um, lifelong Army soldier. Growing up I was very adamant of like, I'm never gonna go in the army. No way. Then after high school, I did one semester in college and it didn't go very great . Uh, and so I was like, Hm, Army's not looking so bad now. So, yeah, after I did one semester of college and then I joined the Army mostly to kind of help me get back to college, but it turns out I loved it. And, uh, I really had a wonderful experience.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (02:55):

I really love that because I grew up son of a farmer and swore I'm never going to be a farmer. Then I dropped out of college and now I farm. So we have a lot of things in common except I didn't join the military. So you grew up in a military family. You met your husband in the military, right?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (03:15):

That's correct, Yeah.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (03:17):

At West Point?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (03:18):

That's right. Yeah. So after I was in the Army for a couple years, so I enlisted originally, and so I was enlisted for a couple of years. And then I was given the opportunity to apply to West Point and I was accepted. And so while I was there, I did meet my husband and we've been married for 20 years now. We just did our 20th reunion this past weekend.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (03:44):

Congratulations.

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (03:45):

Yeah.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (03:46):

And your husband also was in the Army?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (03:48):

Yep. Yep. It's a requirement after graduating. So we both graduated and our senior year was when 9/11 happened. So our senior year of college was 2001-2002. We graduated 2002 and pretty much we were both, you know, immediately deployed to Iraq.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (04:08):

So you're newlyweds on deployment. Is that hard?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (04:13):

Um, the hard part was most, most of the time we were separated. Yeah. But there was a brief point where we were both deployed to Baghdad at the same time. So I was on one side of the river, he was on the other side of the river. And so there were a few times we were able to actually visit. I have this distinct memory of like, you know, sitting on top of a security point with my husband at night watching the tracers, , you know, in the sky overhead. And, and it's something that we kind of go back to in our marriage, you know, when things are going rough or the kids were crazy or whatever, we say, Well, nobody's shooting at us. We're okay.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (04:53):

Yeah. It could be worse. Could be worse. A lot of people say that and you guys really have lived it.

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (04:58):

Yeah, yeah. Like literally nobody's shooting at us. We're okay.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (05:02):

Yeah. Wow. So I want to talk about how this military journey brings you into providing food for your local community. So speaking of things being difficult, you, you also gardened while in the Army?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (05:19):

Yes.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (05:21):

Now I have family in the Army. And you even talked about being a military brat, which indicates, you know, you moved around a lot. Mm-hmm. gardens are usually like, literally putting down roots. Is is that hard to do?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (05:34):

Um, yes. Yeah. But it was, it was a very important part of my upbringing. So yes, I was a military brat. I grew up moving around. But even so both sets of my grandparents were farmers in Michigan. And so every summer I would go and stay with them and help them on the farm, you know, hoeing beans or whatever else, you know, we had to do. And so my mother, when we were growing up, wherever we were stationed, she would always make sure she had a garden. And so I'd help her plant. And so it was a natural thing wherever I was, if it was a house plant was all I could manage. I would do that. If I had some space I would, you know, plant some flowers or some tomatoes or whatever. So I've, I've been doing that forever wherever I went.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (06:25):

Uh, so on, on bases all across the US there's a, a garden in the backyard of some housing unit there that you started. Do you think people kept it up after you left?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (06:36):

Germany... I don't wanna know. .

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (06:39):

You don't wanna know.

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (06:40):

That's the one thing about moving. I've gone back before, you know, to a place I lived and seen that the new tenants have razed my garden and it makes me very sad. So I'd rather just not know and believe that they're enjoying what I left. But yeah. Yeah. So not just the United States. Also in Germany. Even on my first deployment, my mom sent me flower seeds while I was in Iraq. They didn't take, and that was probably a good thing, .

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (07:12):

Yeah, there's, yeah, there's a large body of literature about not sending seeds across to different continents. .

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (07:18):

Yeah. That was probably not a good idea, but it was just such a natural thing for her to do. Oh, sure. Um, yeah. So I appreciated the thought,

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (07:27):

. So when did you decide to leave the Army and how did that take place?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (07:32):

So I left the Army in 2007. I did two deployments to Iraq. I was injured on my second deployment, so we made a decision as a family after that to get out of the military.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (07:50):

So in 2007, you make the decision as a family to get out of the military. Did you have kids at that, did you say as a family? So did you have kids?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (07:58):

Yes. Yeah. So I just had my oldest son. He was eight months old when we got out, so he was a baby. And my husband and I made a decision at that point because, you know, like I said, I did two deployments. He did two deployments. So our first five years of marriage, we had only been together in the same place for four months consecutively.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (08:25):

Wait, cumulatively?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (08:27):

No, consecutive. Four months consecutive.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (08:28):

The longest consecutive time together

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (08:31):

Exactly was four months. And so we knew that if we stayed in, we were going to be separated again. And now we had a baby in the mix. So we decided on top of everything else that we were gonna try our hand at civilian life.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (08:48):

Okay. So you said your first semester at college didn't go all that well, then you became a West Point graduate mm-hmm. . And now, um, is it Dr. Sara Skinner?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (08:58):

It is Dr. Sara Skinner. Yeah.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (09:00):

So tell me about your doctorate work, how you, you went back for a PhD.

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (09:04):

Yeah. Well after I got out of the Army in 2007, I was doing a lot of volunteer work for an organization called Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America (IAVA). And it was through that work that I learned that there was a shortage of mental health workers nationwide. Because that was one of the things we were advocating for is more mental health services for veterans. So at that point I was like, 'Well, why not me?' So I decided to go back and get my masters in social work. So I did that in 2009. And then after a couple of years I decided to get my PhD. and so I came to the University of Georgia here in Athens and got my PhD. in social work.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (09:53):

And does a lot of the social work that you focus on, is it focused on military, military veterans?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (10:01):

It is. So that is something that I've enjoyed researching and a program that I brought to University of Georgia. I developed a course on military social work for the University of Georgia. And it's a graduate and undergraduate level. I also put together a military social work certificate program that we're hopefully going to be implementing soon in order to certify mental health workers in the state of Georgia to work more competently with the military population.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (10:35):

Yeah. That's awesome. And does gardening and growing food intersect with that work?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (10:42):

Maybe not that particularly, but I will say that it was a very important part of my healing after serving in Iraq and after getting out of the military. I have this distinct memory of when I was flying out of the desert for the last time and I was flying into Germany, looking out the window of the airplane, and I could just see the deep rich browns and greens of Germany in contrast to having been in the desert. It just sticks in my mind of all that life that's in vegetation and the soil as being kind of, you know, being home, and being surrounded by living and nurturing myself. So I threw myself into really gardening and growing things and it was very meaningful for me, very healing. I know the same is true for a lot of veterans. There are a lot of programs nationwide that combine veterans and agriculture because it turns out it's actually a really good fit for a lot of veterans working in agriculture.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (12:04):

Not only professionally. I mean, they probably have the experience of hard work, they can do what it takes to run a farm. But it sounds like at a little bit more of a deeper level it's meaningful and impactful work.

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (12:19):

Yes, exactly. We know that farming is hard work, right? And there's a lot of uncertainty. And so veterans are uniquely able to handle the stress of it. But I feel like there's hope inherent in the act of planting something, right? So it's kind of a bet on the future every time you put a seed in the ground or in my case inoculate some, you know, wood with mushroom mycelium. It's the same kind of thing that you're vesting in the future.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (12:54):

Yeah and able to bring about creation and flourishing and not destruction.

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (13:00):

Exactly. Yeah.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (13:01):

Yeah. Wow. So let's talk about mushrooms then.

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (13:05):

Yeah, so like I said, I've always gardened and grew food and that sort of thing. And then when we moved into, not where I'm living right now, but I was putting together my garden and there was parts of my yard or land where it was very shady mm-hmm. . I used up every like square foot of sunlight that there was available. And so I was like, 'Well, what can I do now?. So then I started investigating mushrooms. So I started growing mushrooms probably around 13 years ago, I think now. Wow. I started with the way a lot of people do, like inoculating logs and that sort of thing. It was fun and I enjoyed it and grew some mushrooms for my family. But really once the pandemic hit and I found myself with all this time, that's when I really got serious about it. I did a lot more investigating into indoor mushroom cultivation. It turns out I just really loved it because it is so quick compared to traditional gardening. I can inoculate with oyster mushroom mycelium and from the time of inoculation to the time of harvesting can be four to six weeks. Really? Yeah. Which is really fast.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (14:30):

And so in produce gardening, we have this term called cut and come back. A lot of lettuces are cut and come back. Are mushrooms the same way where you can harvest and then it'll regrow just like lettuce will regrow its own leaves?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (14:43):

Yes, to a certain extent. They will regrow until they consume basically all the nutrients that are in whatever substrate they're growing in. So I can usually get two or three flushes from one of my blocks. Now if I'm talking about logs, you know, those can produce for years.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (15:04):

Got it. What are the nutrients that these mushrooms need? Because I'm thinking entirely in terms of, you know, I raise produce. Yeah. You probably don't need a lot of nitrogen, right?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (15:17):

No, no. A little bit is good, but it's mostly carbon based and carbon and lignin and I feel like I need to go get out one of my mushroom books so that I'm really accurate. But, yeah, mostly if you think of like out the woods or whatever, mushrooms are, for the most part, are denser forest, right? So they're growing on dead or decaying things that are part of the process of breaking down material.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (15:46):

Yeah. They're a primary decomposer.

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (15:48):

Exactly. There you go. That's basically what they need is something to grow on. And it's usually sawdust, wood, almost everything I grow grows on hardwood of some type.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (16:03):

And they don't require the same sunlight requirements that I need in order to get a produce crop so you can grow 'em in a shade. They actually prefer that?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (16:11):

Yes, but not total shade. I think that's a misunderstanding a lot of folks have. There are some mushrooms that can grow or prefer a darkness. I think most of the grocery store mushrooms that you think of, those do grow best in a shade, total shade. But most of the mushrooms that I grow, lions main oysters, those are mushrooms that you would find growing in the forest. So you think, you know, dappled sunlight. And so that's basically what all I need. Not as much as you would need like in a greenhouse or whatever, but yeah, I do have to have light for eight to 12 hours a day.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (16:52):

But nothing that you're selling is foraged, right? This is all cultivated mushrooms.

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (16:57):

Yes. I don't do any foraging. So I'm not sure about other places, but in Georgia you have to have a foraging license.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (17:05):

Indiana is the same. And we have a mushroom here. I don't know if it grows in Georgia, the morels?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (17:10):

Oh yes. Yeah. I get,

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (17:12):

Yeah. Yeah. Do you actually forage some that you don't for your own enjoyment?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (17:18):

I try. Okay. Yeah. I do try to forage. So every time I'm out on a hike, I'm constantly looking for mushrooms and drive my family crazy. Cause they're like, you know, 'could you speed up?' I'm trying to look at under logs and everything. But I'm not really great at foraging. And so I tell that to my customers all the time.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (17:43):

And side note for our listeners, don't eat just any mushroom that you happen to find in the forest. I think most people know that but I really don't want to get sued as the host of More Than A Mile here, .

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (17:53):

Thank you. Well then you can cut this out, but I always say, 'you know, you can try any mushroom at least once.'

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (17:59):

, we can say that as long as everyone knows it's a punchline. You may not be able to try anything after you've tried that mushroom.

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (18:06):

Yeah. But that's an advantage for me of growing my mushrooms cuz I know exactly what I'm growing and what I'm getting. And also I don't have to fight with the bugs because I get to harvest them exactly when they're ready. So I don't have to worry about them being past prime or any of that.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (18:23):

Of course. So do you grow any indoors or is it all outdoors?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (18:28):

No, actually most of the stuff I grow is indoors. So my lions mane and my oyster mushrooms are all grown indoors. Most of my shiitake, though I do have some shiitake outside. I only have a couple types of mushrooms that I have outdoor beds for, and that is reishi mushrooms. I like to grow those ones outside and they do well here in Georgia cause it's hot. I also do wine caps, which is also known as garden giant or the garden wander. It's a wonderful mushroom that likes to grow in mulch. And maitake is another one that I'm kind of experimenting with out in the garden.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (19:13):

Okay. Yeah. Which one's easier growing indoors or outdoors?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (19:17):

Indoors, absolutely. Because I can control the humidity levels. I can control the temperature. I love growing outdoors, but it's sometimes it's a surprise.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (19:29):

You're at the mercy of Mother Nature, right?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (19:32):

A hundred percent. So if you get a dry spell, you're just, you know. Yeah.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (19:37):

What should we picture? Everybody has an idea of what a garden looks like and maybe even what a greenhouse looks like for indoor growing. But can you help our listeners understand what does it look like? Is it a plank of wood that you keep wet all the time? Or what's it gonna look like if we saw your indoor growing?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (19:54):

So no. It's actually it looks like I have a couple grow rooms and those are just rooms that I have shelves in those. And on the shelves are bags and the bags contain sawdust and the mushroom mycelium. And so the mushrooms actually grow out of those bags. And so, yeah.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (20:19):

So you use sawdust instead of logs primarily?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (20:22):

Yes. Primarily I use sawdust. Like I said, some of my outdoor stuff, I definitely use logs, but the indoor stuff is all grown on sawdust and I enriched the sawdust with a little wheat bran or like shredded beet hulls, beet pulp.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (20:39):

Got it. Yeah. What's your favorite?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (20:41):

It changes with the seasons. I'll say in the warm weather, I really love golden oysters. They're kind of sweet, a little nutty, but after the long summer that we've had in Georgia, I'm over the golden oysters. And so I'm starting to get some of the cold weather mushrooms. And so this time of year I love black pearl oysters. It's a hybrid mushroom. It's combination of like a oyster and a king trumpet. Okay. And it's really meaty, very dense. It's got kind of a peppery smokey flavor. It's just amazing this time of year.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (21:21):

Now I'm hungry for fried mushrooms. Do you fry it? Yeah,

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (21:25):

I, yes. If you name it, I will make mushrooms that way. But I always tell everybody if they don't know what to do with the mushroom, then just go ahead and saute it, right? Mm-hmm. . So that's the best way to kinda try to eat a mushroom.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (21:37):

You can't go wrong with maybe a little bit of breading and fry it in butter. I don't think you can do anything wrong that way.

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (21:43):

That's true for just about anything i think.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (21:45):

That's true for anything that's edible. Right?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (21:47):

Yeah.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (21:47):

How do I cook these Pop Tarts? Well, listen, just fry them in butter, you're going to be fine.

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (21:51):

There you go.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (21:52):

. So, you started growing mushrooms just last year 2021?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (22:00):

Well I started growing mushrooms, like I said, it's been probably about 13 or 14 years, but I started Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms a little over a year ago.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (22:09):

You turned this passion into a business a little over a year ago, Classic City Gourmet Mushroom.

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (22:15):

That's correct. Yeah.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (22:16):

Where do you go when you want to sell mushrooms, you say, I'm gonna grow a large volume of mushrooms, how do you find a market for that? Is it a lot of chefs? Was it farmers markets? What did that look like?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (22:31):

I started with farmers markets. I've sold at a couple farmers markets locally, so we're fortunate in our area. We have a lot of large and small farmers markets and so that was a great way to get a feel for the demand. Fortunately the demand was really good. People love mushrooms and they wanted lots of it. I have sold to a couple restaurants locally, um, a couple farm stores. Then of course I sell through Market Wagon, which is my favorite online farmers market.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (23:10):

Thank you. That's great. We love to know that there's a vibrant market for what people produce. We know that Market Wagon is one way that consumers get food delivered to their door. But farmers markets are fantastic. They're a fantastic experience. Great way to meet customers face to face and then to know that there's some chefs and restaurants that support is really important. Where do you want to see this going in the future?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (23:37):

I do feel like I will be expanding within the next few years. But I really desire to keep it very local. I think that's where my heart is.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (23:49):

You don't want to be the mushroom queen of America?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (23:51):

No, I definitely don't. I have zero desire to do that. But I really love the community that I get by being a farmer and being part of a farming community in my area. So when I'm at the farmers markets, it really does feel like being part of a community because I know my other vendors, I know my customers, I see them face to face. I have regulars who come every week. Same on Market Wagon. I have regulars who subscribe to my mushrooms and they communicate with me regularly about what they're doing with them. So that feels really nice. It feels good to have those kind of relationships. I think that's very important to me. I love living here in Athens and in this part of Georgia. And so yeah. I'm very much embedded here.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (24:46):

What about your boys? Are they involved in the mushroom growing?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (24:49):

Yes. Whether they like it or not. ? No, they're, they're wonderful. They've learned every part of the mushroom growing operation. And they've been really helpful at the markets, so they love the opportunity to earn a little bit of extra money. And they're really helpful at setting up and taking down and they know all about the mushrooms and can talk about 'em with customers too, So yeah, it's a family operation.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (25:17):

That's really neat. That's really neat. If our listeners wanted to connect with you more, follow you online, where are they gonna find you?

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (25:23):

We're on Facebook and Instagram and you could of course check out my website, which is ClassicCityGourmetMushroom.com.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (25:33):

Well, Dr. Sara Skinner, it has been awesome hearing your story.

Dr. Sara Skinner (Classic City Gourmet Mushrooms) (25:36):

Awesome. It was good to meet you, Nick

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (25:38):

You as well. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than a Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market Wagon at MarketWagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More Than A Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, castbox, podchaser or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Thank you for continuing to support local food.

 

Season 2 - Episode 1

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (00:00):

Today we're gonna have a conversation with a farmer and her teenage daughter, who are two key parts of the family owned New Horizon Farm and Dairy, as well as Happy Cows Creamery. They're in southwest Ohio, located about halfway between Cincinnati and Columbus. And as they so eloquently put it, the milk you get from them today was just grass two days ago. But it almost didn't happen. If not for a business plan that was drawn up by a 16-year-old girl, the farm would've likely suffered the same fate as the dozen other dairy farms around him, which have gone out of business in the past 10 years. Welcome back for the second season of the podcast. I am so excited to share the Bickel story with you today.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (00:40):

Welcome to More Than a Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmers market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than a Mile, and thank you for buying local food. That's one critical step in making an investment in food for future generations. I am really excited today to be joined by Jackie Bickel and Maggie Mathews. We are gonna be talking about what turns out to be a story of kind of how a teenager's question and ambitious business plan, breathe new life, and another generation into a family farm. With now the expectation that it becomes a third generation farm. So welcome to the podcast, Jackie, More than a mile, New Horizon farm.

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (01:43):

Yes.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (01:43):

Yeah. So this was started by your father-in-law, right? Almost 60 years ago?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (01:48):

Yes, it'll be 60 years next year.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (01:51):

Okay. And while for over half a century he operated the farm under normal business conditions, it sounds like in the last decade or so, things really, really changed. Right?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (02:04):

They did. For decades, my father-in-law, my husband and his two brothers operated essentially a commercial dairy farm where we shipped our milk through a co-op. They came and picked it up by the semi-load every other day. We received pay based on the hundred pound weight, which was established by, you know, federal order. And about 10 years ago, the milk industry went upside down for a variety of reasons. Consumer demand declines, commercial dairies kept getting bigger, family farms kept getting smaller. And with the economy the way that it was, we, at one point we were receiving payment for our milk t hat was the same payment my father-in-law was receiving back in the 1980s. So

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (02:57):

Wow. That's not how that's supposed to go

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (02:57):

. Right, exactly. Yeah. And we knew the demand was there. We just, we couldn't understand it. And my husband was just, he was getting very frustrated and we were talking about an exit strategy, not something that my father-in-law wanted to see happen. Wow. But, you know, putting pen pencil to paper, it just was not, it was not working.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (03:22):

Now the whole, was the whole family aware? Was this a family affair and family conversations around what could happen with the farm?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (03:29):

Well, in 2015, my father-in-law retired and he passed the operation down to my husband. So we rent the land off of the family partnership and we still operate the dairy. 2015 prices were great. It was shortly after that where it started the downturn and we did have conversations with my father-in-law. He didn't wanna see it happen. We were looking for other alternatives. We downsized the herd. We started renting out part of our tillable ground to other area farms to farm themselves to keep our expenses down. And it just, it wasn't gonna work. And Maggie came home from an FFA field trip one day. She was on the dairy judging team, and she's like, I have an idea. And of course, we were not interested because we were very focused on what we were going to do.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (04:29):

And she was 16 years old at the time, right?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (04:33):

Yep. Just turned 16.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (04:34):

Yeah. Was, was there an aspect of let the adults in the room figure this out?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (04:41):

You know, my husband is very hardheaded and I can publicly say that because he's very proud of his hardheadedness. And you know, all he's ever known is milking cows, you know, twice a day. This is how we've done it, this is how my father's done it. And getting outside of that box and looking at other alternatives I know is very scary for him. We've only been married for 10 years. I bring a little bit more outside experience, but he's only worked on the farm. That's all he knows. So it was it was a tough sell at first

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (05:16):

Maggie. So 16 years old, you go to your parents with a new business idea. Where, where did this inspiration come from? How did you come up with the idea?

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (05:24):

So, as she said, I was on our dairy judging team, which included going out to multiple farms during the season, judging other people's cows off of a point system basically. So I just kind of like, I liked the idea. The family was also local and was related to my science teacher as well. And we were doing business plans in ag class one day, and my group partners didn't do their half. So I ended up doing the entire project by myself, .

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (05:57):

And so I used to love group projects. I was the other one. Same ?

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (06:02):

No, I was always the one that did all of the work, which I was fine with it cuz then it, like I got to control how it was done. But I kind of just like fooled around and made a little business plan, like just for the school project after going on the FFA trip. And I was like, Yeah, this actually could be a real thing. Like this could be legit if we put the, put the time and the statistics and everything else into it.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (06:27):

So Maggie, you've gotta convince your dad to change the way that he's been farming. Was that easy to do?

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (06:35):

It was definitely a challenge because not only was it just this silly little business plan I made in FFA class, but I'm also a young woman in the industry who doesn't have nearly as much experience as he does. So it was nagging at him more so than anything else. Just continuously bringing it up and putting the, planting the seed in his mind of there is another option that isn't getting rid of what you've worked your entire life towards. So it was hard, but it was worth it.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (07:06):

When do you think that turning point was? What do you think finally flipped a switch for him to say, Let's give this a shot.

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (07:13):

I was a phone call,

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (07:15):

It was a phone call. Jackie was a phone jumps in. It sounds like you remember where you were when this took place.

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (07:21):

, I was with him and the owner of the dairy farm that Maggie went on the field trip with, decided he was going to go out of business and he was going to sell his bottling operation. And he called to see if Donald would be interested because he had heard through the grapevine that we were looking at that avenue. So my husband spent several months shadowing him, learning the business, deciding how we were going to purchase the equipment, transition things. And it was gonna happen at the first of the year in 2018. And at Christmas the farmer put a little note on his milk shed letting his customers know that he was done and to stay tuned for new ownership and new opportunities. And the media got ahold of it. And needless to say, within a day we received a phone call and he had changed his mind.

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (08:20):

He was going to keep bottling. And that just set my husband back to square one and I'm like, No, no, no, no, no. We've got a plan. We know what we have to do. We know what we have to buy, let, we're gonna keep on going. And it took us a few more months to source the different equipment from another producer and to get where we needed to be cuz we were going back to square one. I told him that, don't let the roadblock stop us. You know, we just need to go around it and keep moving forward. So it took us a little longer than what we had anticipated, but we did find other equipment and we were ready to start rolling right in the middle of the pandemic,

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (09:06):

Right in the middle of the pandemic. So you find the equipment, you raise the money to be able to buy this equipment. So on a farm that's already struggling to make money, you raise more money to invest in something new. Was that hard? How did you do that?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (09:22):

Well, the the producer was bottling milk and making ice cream in Indiana. He heard about our story, I shared with him our struggles and he said, You know what, I will give you this equipment through a milk assignment, which meant that each month when we shipped our milk, a portion of our check was going to him.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (09:46):

So he basically invested in it?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (09:49):

Correct. Wow. Cause he liked, he liked the business plan, he liked what the numbers looked like, he was confident that we would be able, you know, to pull it off. And, you know, we're sitting here essentially debt free with our bottling operation right now

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (10:06):

At the core of local food is relationships and community and that story just punctuates it so well. You mentioned the pandemic a minute ago. It couldn't have been just you guys who were feeling this pinch. What happened to the other farmers that, you know, in the area?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (10:22):

Well, here in Clinton County, Ohio where our farm is, we have gone from 12 dairies to our farm being the only dairy left in the county. And when it got down to one or two dairies, it just made the cause even greater for us to want to succeed so that there was still a local dairy here in our community.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (10:43):

So it's, it's late 2019. You've got your paperwork submitted, you're waiting for the great state of Ohio to approve you to sell milk and bottles. Right. What happens next?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (10:54):

Well the first thing that we did was we established a relationship with Market Wagon and we started to sell meat, eggs, baked goods because we knew that was the venue we were going to use to sell our milk, but we

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (11:14):

Wait, wait, wait. So you did this on Market Wagon, you started selling on Market Wagon, not milk though. You started selling anything else that you or

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (11:20):

Freezer meat

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (11:21):

Because your milk permit hadn't come in yet.

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (11:23):

Correct.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (11:24):

So you just started bootstrapping it.

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (11:30):

Yes. Yes. And we're like we need to get our name out there, we need to establish ourselves as a vendor so that when this comes to fruition it's going to be a very easy introduction to our customer base. And, it was even with the pandemic, it was.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (11:47):

Wow. Okay. So when did you sell your first bottle of milk?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (11:53):

That would've been May 4th, 2020.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (11:59):

May 4th, 2020. approval comes in, you can put bottles on Market Wagon.

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (12:05):

Yes.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (12:07):

How many head of cattle did you have at the time?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (12:10):

At the time we were milking about 50 head of Ayrshires and Holsteins. And we probably had another 75, 80 fresh young heifers

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (12:21):

Ready to get going. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . have you grown your herd size at all since then?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (12:27):

We have not. Okay. But we barely ship milk out bulk anymore cuz we were still shipping milk through the co-op while we were bottling milk.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (12:38):

So let's talk about that a little bit. I understand what you mean. Co-Op selling wholesale by the pound versus bottling on farm. A lot of our listeners might not understand the difference. So explain the typical dairy that doesn't sell on Market Wagon. What are, you mentioned at the very beginning you were selling by the hundred weight, it's a price set down by the USDA, right? Correct. And it's a commodity price, so Yes. Just like stocks can go up and down, price of milk can go up and down, right?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (13:08):

Absolutely.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (13:09):

And you're basically told this is how much money you can get for your milk?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (13:13):

Yes.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (13:15):

And did you say it was 2016 when you were getting the same amount as the eighties?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (13:21):

Yes. Okay.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (13:23):

So to bottle on farm, you're now the master of your own domain, right?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (13:32):

Yes.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (13:32):

What does a gallon of milk sell for on Market Wagon?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (13:37):

On Market Wagon, our regular milk sells for $5. Our flavored milk sells for $6.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (13:46):

So that is a better price than organic milk at the grocery store?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (13:50):

Yes.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (13:51):

And it's straight off of your farm?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (13:54):

Yes. It is literally grass two days before we put it in the customer's bag.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (14:00):

It is grass. Two days before. Yes. That mama cow turns it into milk and goes right into the customer's bag. I love that. That's a great timeline. That's a good way to think of it. Yes. Now the other thing that our listeners will probably have a hard time translating is hundred weight. You got paid what, 12 to $13 for a hundred pounds of milk?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (14:21):

In 2015 when we took over the operation, we were getting about $26 per hundred weight. Okay. Within eight months we were getting $15 per hundred weight,

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (14:35):

$15 per hundred weight. Mm-Hmm. . Now how many gallons roughly? I know it changes based off of the density of fat and the milk, but roughly how many gallons are in a hundred weight?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (14:45):

So a gallon of milk weighs roughly eight pounds.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (14:51):

A gallon of milk, 8 pounds. So about 12? Yes. About about 12 gallons. Mm-Hmm. I'm not the greatest at math, but that's just over a buck a gallon. Yes. Right.

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (15:03):

But we didn't get the whole buck because once take out .

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (15:07):

That's what I wanted to chime into really quick. So I'm going to school in Cincinnati and a lot of the girls I go to school with don't have a lot of agriculture knowledge cuz they just haven't grown up around it. And I brought milk in the other day for them to try and I was explaining prices to them. And I think the biggest misunderstanding of milk prices is at that barrier because for example, when you go to the grocery store, I don't know what's a gallon of milk now, I don't think I've bought one in three years. Like

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (15:42):

I'm sure I would hope not.

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (15:45):

We'll say $2, we'll say a gallon of milk at the store is $2. And then you come to our farm and a gallon of milk is $5. And the immediate question is, why is a local product costing more locally than it is at the store? And the biggest thing is there we are getting that entire $5. That $5 goes for our manufacturing, our processing, our advertising, our marketing, our livelihood. Like we get all of that $5, whereas in the store they're stretching $2 to the milk hauler, the farmer, the processing, the packaging, the product, the marketing, the advertising, the hauling the milk, the getting it to the stores, paying the stores. So you're essentially stretching $2 to about 10 different people that are relying on that money. And that is why so many dairy farms were going out of business is because that is just not, that's not an attainable price to keep for today's inflation especially. So the two to $5 difference is because we're actually getting that entire $5 and that is why our farm is still around and we can still offer that product to people.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (16:59):

And you're raising a product that people can trust and they know that, like you mentioned Jackie, it's grass, right? Yes. Not corn or silage. And the way that you're raising the animals, the way that you're treating your livestock, they can come out and see it. They can know who you are. Absolutely. And you said a couple of dollars, Maggie, but that's the commodity milk at a grocery store that's least cost providers. What your milk compares to is premium grass fed or some of the organic lines which are six, seven, $8 a gallon. So apples to apples, it's a competitive price. And I think the other thing that a lot of people may realize if they've heard the term loss leader is that grocery stores may actually be motivated to not even make any money on that milk and sell it for cost or nearly over cost. Because that's what brings people into the store and then they'll sell the other things. That's where they make their profit. Mm-Hmm. , correct? Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for expounding on that Maggie. So you've got a lot of different flavors of milk now, right? What all do you offer?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (18:14):

We have chocolate, strawberry mocha, vanilla cake, chocolate peanut butter cookies and cream orange creamsicle. We are getting ready to do eggnog through the rest of the year Yeah. For the holidays. And then we'll have specials here and there, special flavors that we'll do for limited times as well.

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (18:38):

Don't forget root beer.

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (18:40):

Oh yes. Root beer floats.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (18:41):

Root beer float. Wow. And you mentioned a moment ago, you're milking Ayrshires, is that right?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (18:48):

Ayrshires and Holsteins.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (18:49):

Ayrshires and Holsteins. Okay. Mm-Hmm. . How did you decide on that breed?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (18:57):

Well, my husband grew up on a Holstein farm and so they were very established as premier breeders here in Ohio. And when he and I were married 10 years ago, the girls and I had Ayrshires. So,

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (19:11):

And one Guernsey, we can't forget my little baby Guernsey.

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (19:15):

And one Guernsey. So part of the dowry was he had to accept our Ayrshires and here we are today with oh, there's probably 35% of the herd is Ayrshires now.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (19:30):

Hey Maggie, do you still have that Guernsey?

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (19:34):

Unfortunately I don't, She was my first animal though. She was a surprise and her name was Maggie. I didn't even name her and she was like my favorite cow ever. She kind of beat me up in the show ring though. Like, I could not control her to save my life. But she is my favorite cow ever. I'll never own a Guernsey ever again because they're not, they're not all there. But Guernseys hold a very special place in my heart because that was my first ever cow.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (20:05):

So you were, did you show in 4H fairs or other show circuits?

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (20:10):

So I've shown collectively at the local level, at county fairs, state level, national level and international level. So I've been to Louisville, Kentucky. What else? We go to state fair every year. I've shown at Wisconsin, World Dairy Expo, which is actually going on right now.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (20:33):

Ok

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (20:33):

Then I also show livestock

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (20:34):

Your show animals, are they part of the production herd there at New Horizon Dairy?

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (20:39):

Yes. Yeah. Our show girls as we like to call them, are also our working girls. So they do a little bit of everything

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (20:49):

That's really cool. A lot of people might not realize that the show circuit in several species, there's been a divergence between the traits that are needed in the show ring and the traits that actually are meaningful in production. But not so in dairy, right?

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (21:07):

Correct.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (21:08):

I showed Jerseys by the way, so,

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (21:10):

Oh gosh.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (21:12):

Hey, hey.

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (21:13):

I don't like Jerseys.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (21:15):

You don't like jerseys? All right, well we're just gonna end the show right now. I'm just kidding. Why don't you like Jerseys?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (21:21):

I show livestock too, so I quite literally show everything like lambs, goats, pigs. Like I understand.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (21:31):

We've got Boer-Nubian cross goats on our farm right now and there's a 4H kid nearby. You can't give facial expressions. It's a great face for radio Maggie. Everyone sees how pleased you are with my Boer-Nubian cross. I'm getting insulted by a college kid on my farming practices right

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (21:47):

Nubians freak me out because they don't have ears.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (21:50):

Nubians freak you out cuz their eyes go in different directions

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (21:53):

And they don't have ears. Am I thinking of the right dairy goat?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (21:57):

You're thinking of, no.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (21:58):

No, you are not thinking of the right dairy goat. No, I thought you showed livestock, Maggie.

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (22:04):

Not dairy goats. They freak out. They freak me out so much, but I didn't like jerseys because I had a bad experience with one

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (22:12):

I think you had a bad experience with a Guernsey, but she still loved her.

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (22:14):

Yeah, because her name was Maggie and she is like the best cow ever.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (22:18):

Oh, well I had a cow named Maggie. I didn't, I just made that up. But I wanted you to love my Jerseys .

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (22:23):

We do Jerseys in the herd.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (22:26):

Jerseys are a really good source of butter fat.

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (22:27):

Yes, we do have Jerseys in the herd now.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (22:31):

Yeah. If you want that good rich milk, you gotta have some jerseys in the herd to add that butter fat, right? Yes. Yep.

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (22:37):

Correct.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (22:38):

Yeah. So that was a fun little detour to most of our listeners were like, why are they trash talking about cow breeds? I don't understand . This just got weird. But little detour into thinking through the actual mix of your herd and the livestock that's there. You guys are crafting the product for your consumers through genetics, through the animals, right? And care for the animals.

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (23:03):

Yes.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (23:04):

Yeah.

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (23:06):

We grow, we grow our own feed, we harvest our own hay. We know everything that it took to make that bottle of milk. Yeah. So when a customer asks, we're very confident everything came from the farm and it does give that consumer a peace of mind when they are looking to support local. And you know, food source is important for a lot of people. They wanna know where, where their food is coming from and that it's safe

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (23:38):

Trust in our food supply is at an all time low because most of what you find at the supermarket, there's no way for you to really know how it was grown or where it came from.

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (23:47):

Right,

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (23:48):

Right. On Market Wagon, do you get customers asking you questions? I mean, do they engage with you, chat with you?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (23:54):

Yeah. Yes. Well we have to remind the customers, because our milk is non homogenized, which means the cream is still in it. Mm-Hmm. . So if they don't shake it up and they pour that first cup out, it, it looks curdled and then they're like, Oh, I got bad milk. I'm like, well, did you shake it? Oh. Oh, okay. Yeah. That, oh this is great. So, you know, we'll get a lot of that. We have a lot of customers that have been customers of ours on Market Wagon since the inception of our bottling.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (24:25):

That is really cool. That is very cool.

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (24:28):

We turned it off one week to go to state fair and we had a customer call the hub manager concerned, where are they? Where am I gonna get my milk at? So we don't turn it off anymore. We figure out a way to get it to the hub even if we can't be there.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (24:42):

Yeah. Showing animals isn't nearly as important as feeding people, right, Maggie? Correct.

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (24:47):

.

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (24:49):

Well, , I'm just kidding. Sometimes I feel like it is more important, but my opinion is different from most.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (25:00):

Well it sounds like on this farm your opinion matters a lot because you get the credit for creating a business that's now feeding thousands of people and keeping the farm alive for another generation. Are you gonna come back and farm Maggie?

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (25:13):

Eventually. so my little brother is seven. Yeah. We have a 12 year age gap, so I'm hoping, and Donald's getting a little senile as I'd like to say. So I'm hoping I get to branch off and do my original business plan and I'm hoping to be able to retire from my career by 45. I'm gonna manifest it and then I can come back. Yeah, I saw the face you just made. I'm a very driven person and I feel like, we made vision board at school the other day. I feel like if I really put my mind to it, I can do it.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (25:50):

I believe every word that you just said. At 16 years old, you came up with a business plan to save the family farm. You can retire by 45

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (25:57):

. Yes. So when I retire at 45 I do hope to come back to my roots, but I will say it just depends on timing in life and what I have going on and what my little brother decides that he wants to do. So

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (26:10):

The important thing is that, I have kids as well, and it was a big thing for me to save our family farm. That's the backstory here for me and Market Wagon. But it's not that I know my kids are going to farm cuz they might not. They have their own, just like you, you have your own aspirations, they're their own people, but that they could if they wanted to. Because when I was 18, it wasn't really a choice. If I had wanted to farm as a career, I couldn't have. And so over the last 20 years I've changed that, on our farm and I'm trying to help other farmers just like you do the same thing. So that when your little brother decides what he wants to do when he grows up, that farming is an option and he can choose to stay where his roots are at and make a living. Yeah. That's very cool.

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (26:58):

So that gets really interesting for me because I have a few friends that are like, well we'll call this friend Joe, so Joe,

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (27:09):

Don't worry Maggie. I'm pretty sure Joe's not gonna listen to my podcast.

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (27:12):

I don't know, I don't know. Joe might. Okay. But Joe came to pick up a pig with me one time and Joe now wants to farm and it's not as easily accessible for people that are like Joe and have not grown up around it and have never done it and have to quite literally learn everything. Whereas there's kids like me, I know some of my friends that didn't get the option to go to college because it's like the farm is here, that's what you're doing. So I'm very thankful that I do have parents that my career path right now is not necessarily being on the farm milking cows. However, I can still help in other aspects. Like I deliver our milk to Findlay market. Like I do other things that aren't directly on the farm, like feeding calves and stuff, but I'm still helping out and my parents are giving me that option. That way I don't feel like I have to stay at the farm. But if I do wanna come back to that at some point in time, that option is there for me. Whereas I have friends who don't necessarily have the option to ever farm and that's what they wanna do. I have friends that do wanna go off and go to nursing school or wanna do other things with their life, but they don't wanna have to lose their farm and they just don't have the option to leave.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (28:30):

Wow. Yeah. Farming is really the last profession that we have that's still passed down from generation to generation. Right?

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (28:36):

Yeah, for sure.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (28:37):

Yeah.

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (28:39):

Yeah. You can't just go to school and learn how to be a be a farmer. It's really a trade that you learn from a young age.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (28:47):

Yep. And there's not a whole lot of Indeed postings for farmers

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (28:52):

. Yeah, for sure. And the ones that do that do have their indeed posting and come out. They don't, they don't normally last very long. It's not like how they see it on TikTok. They have the TikTok farming and they're like, Oh yeah, the wind's gonna blow in my hair as I ride horses to go round up cows. But like they don't show getting cow manure on you or getting kicked by an animal or like, when you have to lose an animal. Like they don't, they don't show the not so beautiful stuff.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (29:20):

Yeah. They don't show how people get scared of Nubian goats apparently. I've never seen it

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (29:26):

. They just creep me out a little bit. Just a little bit.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (29:33):

We only have goats because we don't have very good pasture and the goats will eat, you know, scrub land. So

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (29:38):

Right. That's how, that's how Ayrshires are. Ayrshires will eat anything.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (29:42):

They're not as picky

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (29:43):

Nope.

Maggie Mathews (New Horizon Dairy) (29:44):

I will admire your goats from afar. Okay. I will support your goats from a very, very, very large distance.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (29:53):

Okay. Thank you. That makes me feel so good. This has been a really fun conversation. It's great to meet fellow entrepreneurs. It's great to meet and it's always fun to talk to other farmers and hear your story. If people want to continue to follow you and learn more about you online, where can they do that?

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (30:10):

We are on Facebook. Our page is New Horizon Farm and Happy Cows Creamery. And we also have a website, www.happycowsatnewhorizon.com.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (30:22):

Okay. So for everybody listening at home, if you're looking to enjoy the milk that Maggie and Jackie and I have talked about here for the last half an hour, you're gonna find it online on Market Wagon and at farmers markets and under the name of Happy Cows Creamery. And that's what's gonna be on the bottle in your kitchen as you're enjoying that milk. The milk in the bottle came from their family farm that the Bickel family owns called New Horizon Dairy. So not to be confused, but when you find 'em online, New Horizon Dairy is the farm providing the milk that goes into your kitchen under the name Happy Cows Creamery Jackie. Maggie, thanks so much for coming on and just telling your story with us.

Jackie Bickel (New Horizon Dairy) (30:58):

Thank you for the opportunity.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon CEO) (31:06):

Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than a Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market wagon@marketwagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us at Market Wagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed more than a Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, castbox podchaser, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Thank you for continuing to support Local Food.

 

Episode 14

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (00:01):

Today, we're gonna have a conversation with Andrew VanTil of Bowerman Blueberry Farm and Farm Market. They're in West Michigan and if you have tasted blueberries that you bought from Walmart or Kroger, you probably tasted their blueberries at one point or another. So how does a farm who has national distribution in some of the largest retailers in the country, find the value in connecting directly with you on Market Wagon so that you can know their farm, their name, and chat with them so that you can know where your food came from. Happy 4th of July and enjoy the episode.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (00:35):

Welcome to More Than A Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon, focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmers market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. And I look forward to crafting a generational quilt of farmer stories and experiences, the victories and challenges of individuals, families, and teams doing their part to help democratize food in America. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than A Mile, and thank you for buying local food. It's one critical step in making an investment in food for future generations.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (01:26):

Well, my guest today is Andrew VanTil from Bowerman Blueberries in Michigan. And welcome to the show, Andrew.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (01:34):

Good morning, Nick.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (01:35):

Great to have you here. Thanks for joining. So this is our 4th of July episode. We're coming up on the middle of the summer. Is that holiday, does that have a big spike for you guys or what kind of impact does that have on your farm?

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (01:48):

Oh man. 4Th of July. It's really the start of the season for us. You know, we start harvesting blueberries about a week after the 4th of July. But I think it--I think it really signifies the start of summer for a lot of people. You know, it, here in Michigan, it's, you know, cherries become available right around the 4th of July. We start harvesting blueberries about a week after everybody's out of school, everybody's in summer mode and, you know, for us, it really, it kicks off the summer of amazing Michigan produce.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (02:21):

Awesome. And blueberries are your main thing. Is there anything else you guys grow?

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (02:26):

So we have dabbled in a lot of things. We have grown strawberries here on the farm. We've grown raspberries on the farm, we've grown pumpkins, you know, it's all been a matter of you know, figuring out how to bring customers in, not only during this time during the 4th of July when things are really busy, but you know, kind of extending that experience out into other parts of the summer. So, you know, we used to grow asparagus to kick things off really early. That was--that was hard. I'm not gonna lie . And like I said, we then moved into, we did some strawberries, we've done some raspberries, you know, we've tried a lot of different things. And what we found is that, you know, everything that you grow, everything that you do on the farm, it requires a lot of passion, you know, and for us, our passion is definitely it's definitely in blueberries. So while we have done a lot of different things and we've allocated a lot of different space on the farm for different fruits right now we're back to what we started with, and that is blueberries.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (03:27):

Sticking with the core.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (03:28):

That's right.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (03:29):

Okay. And one of the things I've heard you say, I wanna get a little bit into your family farming background, and I've heard you say farming is family. Tell me about that phrase, how that works into your colloquial.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (03:43):

Yeah. So we know that better than anyone here at Bowerman's, you know we are truly your quintessential family farm. I--right now Bowerman is run by me, my sister-in-law and my brother-in-law. Mom and dad still live here on the farm. They're pushing their mid seventies and, you know, they're honestly still the hardest workers on the farm. And I, I don't think they're ever they're ever gonna quit which is great because we absolutely love having them around. But it, as, you know, as we've grown, we've taken in even more you know, more family members. So now I have another brother-in-law, who's working here at the farm. We're starting to see our nieces and nephews get to the age where they're working at our farmer's markets. They're working at our restaurants, you know all the way from from doing dishes at the restaurant to helping on the back of the harvester here on the farm. You know, it's, it really is a, a family effort. And as it's been harder to get you know, employees and good, good people on the farm sometimes, you know, families who you have to rely on.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (04:47):

Yeah, for sure. Very reliable. And I wanna get into, you've mentioned restaurants and farmer's markets and I wanna get into how you've diversified your business, but for a second, I kind of wanna just lean in on the farm side. So we've talked about all the different things you've grown in the past. Talk to me a little bit about blueberries. This is a permaculture, right? These are bushes. How long do they last? How long do you--how long before you have to replace the plant? What's that process look like on your farm?

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (05:19):

Yeah, so blueberries are a little bit different than a lot of other fruits and trees and that kind of stuff. So our farm was actually started in 1954. The first bushes were planted back in 1954, and some of those bushes are still here today. So...Yeah.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (05:37):

Really? Okay. It's more like an orchard then?

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (05:38):

It, it is. Yeah. And it's you know, it's one of the longest standing industries in Michigan in terms of farming. And there are bushes that are here in Michigan that have been alive and been harvested for the last 80 years. You know, it's, as far as we know, as long as you keep up on, you know, proper nutrition on trimming the bushes and you know, harvesting 'em and that kind of stuff. As far as we know blueberry plants will continue to produce for as long as you take care of 'em, it's not like some other crops where, you know, after 10 or 15 years, you have to rip the plant out and kind of redo it. So definitely a permaculture here.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (06:16):

Fascinating, fascinating. And you know, I've got a small farm in Indy. We've tried to diversify a lot of different things. One of the things we've tried and not done very well with here has been berries. More--we tried blueberries, the deer got all of them. We've tried raspberries and blackberries and we get some, but I think there's a difference between our climate and yours. Can you talk about why Michigan just produces so much in the berry crop and so much better produce?

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (06:45):

? Yeah. Well, and of course I'm gonna be a little bit biased. I'm gonna say the best blueberries definitely come from West Michigan. But there's a lot, there's a lot of different factors that, that go into that. You know, I think the reason why the industry was kind of started here blueberries are--blueberries have an affinity to sandy acidic soil. And so when you're on the lake shore of West Michigan that's what we have here. We have sandy acidic soil. And so blueberries naturally thrive in the soil here. And then on top of that, we have the climate, you know, so blueberries take a lot of chill hours during the winter. So there are some varieties that are grown in Mexico and Peru, and that kind of stuff that are kind of an all season crop. They can grow them and they can harvest them at any time.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (07:30):

But the reason that they've been so successful in Michigan is because the blueberry plant naturally needs to go into a dormancy period. It needs to hibernate for a little bit. And so in Michigan we get those chill hours. We get that winter and then it really needs an even climate. So one of the things that the lake does for us is it helps to moderate that climate a little bit, you know, instead of the big temperature swings if it's really hot out, generally, the lake is a little bit cooler and we're getting a nice full breeze, you know, off the lake. It also delays our crop a little bit. So, you know, here in Michigan when you're closer to the lake shore you're growing degree days and the things that that make your bush ready and mature are a little bit pushed back the closer you are to the lake. And we really are a mile and a half off the lake shore. We're in this perfect storm of climate and amazing soil. And then--and you know, bush blueberries are natural here in the Northern Michigan.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (08:32):

Yeah. I'll keep trying to get berries to grow on our little Central Indiana farm here mainly for our own kids to have to go out and pick through some thorns. It builds character--but I'm still gonna be buying berries from you guys for sure. Because we can't get the blueberries to grow here and there's just a difference in quality--it is appreciable.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (08:54):

Well, and you mentioned of struggling to get any with the deer and stuff. And I get customers every year that come and buy blueberry bushes from the farm and they're like, oh, I'm gonna set up, you know, two or three in my front yard and I'm gonna harvest some blueberries off of it. And you know, I say, well, honestly the, I hope you're there. I hope you're getting 'em for looks because you're gonna fight with the birds. You're gonna fight with the deer. And I think the only reason that we end up with any bit of a crop is just because we have so many that the birds and the deer leave full.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (09:22):

Yeah. I've heard that you have to just plant enough--you can't try and keep the birds and deer away, you just have to plan enough that they get full and you still have something to harvest.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (09:29):

Essentially, yeah.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (09:31):

Really? We, yeah, we fight with the deer a lot. We're in a, kind of an urban forest area. So deer and raccoons. Do you do any sweet corn?

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (09:42):

We don't. Nope, no traditional row crops. We don't do sweet corn or soybeans or anything like that. 100% blueberries and specialty crops.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (09:50):

Cool. Sweet corn is something that raccoon can smell them ripening and it is infuriating . All right. So you said blueberries, it sounds like that's the staple--kind of that's the fuel that drives everything. Are there any other crops, does the, the fall comes along that you're gonna be harvesting? Is there any other specialty crops that you do have there that are--that you're picking?

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (10:14):

You know, for the last couple years we've put a couple acre plot of pumpkins in, and again, this is that's really to kind of enhance and extend that customer experience, you know, to let them come in the fall. We make donuts at our farm market. We do a, you know, like sometimes we'll do a, U-pick pumpkin thing or, you know, just be, be that hub for people to come and get their fall decor, and to, you know, still be able to really visit the farm. And like I said, get some bakery items, get some ice cream, you know, having a family experience.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (10:49):

So we obviously love delivering your food all over the Indiana area and Michigan to customer's doorsteps. We have the online farmer's market on Market Wagon, but sounds like there is quite an experience for the customer to come to your farm. Talk about all the things that if somebody wants to hear this podcast and--in addition to ordering from you on Market Wagon regularly--make a day trip out of it, what would they experience?

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (11:16):

Well. So our farm has been growing over the last couple of years and and so we put a farmer's market here on site that has has a full bakery. So we specialize obviously in blueberry donuts. That's one of our number one products, you know, it's kind of what has put us on the map and made us famous. We put a lot of care and effort into those things. But we've also, I mean, we started making, we make our own pies from scratch. We do things like muffins and breads and, you know, we're--with the addition of the restaurant--we've started doing things like handmade cheesecakes and, you know, different kinds of hand pies and that kind of stuff. But when you come to the farm, you get to not only obviously see the agriculture in its true form, you get to come.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (12:00):

And we have you pick available on the farm. You can bring your family here. You can, you can pick as many blueberries as you want to, to take home with you. We have a full ice cream shop here at the farm. We have a retail store. We do events, you know you know, you talk, we talked a little bit about July fourth. We do a summer harvest celebration pretty shortly after that, you know, we bring face painters and, you know, all sorts of different bouncy house and different activities here to the farm because really, you know, we're in the business of making memories and making traditions, you know, so that, that farm experience, that agritourism that has been growing in the last 10 years we've really embraced that and we're looking ahead to what the next step in that is. And that, you know, sometimes we host a lot of school events and school field trips and that kind of stuff. And I could definitely see us in the future, even hosting things like corporate events and potentially weddings and, you know, like there are so many things that are on the docket to really look at in the future.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (13:04):

That's awesome. That's really cool. I'm gonna have to make a trip up there. It's only a couple of hours. Yeah. So talk to me about off farm. You, you've also gotten, you know, your blueberries are in other bakeries.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (13:17):

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, as a, as a small family farm one of the things that we have to do is we have to carve out a niche in this, in this huge, you know, industrial complex of a, of a produce market. And for us, that niche has been quality. You know, we're, we're a hundred acre blueberry farm which it, you know, it's big, but at the same time, it it's it's very small compared to a lot of the farms that are out there. And so one of the things that we've done to carve out that niche for ourself has been to hyper-specialize in quality. You know one of the things that Market Wagon provides for us is just an amazing logistics network. You know, it allows us to take orders from people all week long.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (14:00):

And the day before we are ready to bring those blueberries down to Indy or to any one of the different hubs for Market Wagon we're out there harvesting those berries that day, you know, so we harvest 'em, we get 'em in the cooler that night. And then the next morning we get 'em packaged into, you know, whether it's a pint or a box that is getting shipped out. And so it's--Market Wagon has been able to reduce the amount of time that it takes to go from field to somebody's fridge. And that's key. I mean, blueberries are a perishable product. They have a great shelf life, but you know, the quicker that we can get 'em into people's hands, the better quality of a product that they're gonna have as well, because we can let those blueberries sit on the bushes a little bit longer, develop a little bit more sugars, get a little bit of that better flavor profile, you know, compared to maybe some other traditional sales methods where, you know, we have to pick 'em a little more ahead of time because we're shipping 'em to Texas and they're gonna be, you know, in a cooler for a week or something.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (15:01):

And if you've gotta put 'em in a cooler for a week that you kind of need to keep them from getting too ripe, right? Cause ripe fruit is tender fruit and doesn't ship as well.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (15:13):

Absolutely. And and not only is it tender, but blueberries specifically are very finicky. I mean, you're dealing with something that, you know, you could have anywhere from 200 to a thousand of them in a pound, you know, compare that to something like apples, where a pound of apples, you might have one apple , you know, and it's, it's really easy. That's a big apple to, yeah. It's easy to do quality control on a single apple, but when you're, when you're doing quality control on a thousand blueberries you know, it's, it's a lot, it's a lot harder. And so our, our machinery, our equipment is very specialized you know, in dealing with that and keeping quality up it's, it's a constant struggle, you know, especially with, with weather, with all the different, you know, different things that can affect quality. It's our job really to, to maintain that. And part of that is maintaining cold chain on the way to the customer and, you know, picking the fruit when it's, when it's at its, you know, peak ripeness, but also, you know, it can withstand the, the little bit of, of bumping that it's gonna take from getting picked.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (16:15):

So, yeah. Tell me, gimme a picture. It was when I think when the average customer thinks of picking blueberries, they see you reaching your hand into the bush and grabbing a blueberry fruit off of there. I'm imagining this is probably a little bit more sophisticated than that. Is it a shaking method with a conveyor underneath or what's the pick method look like?

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (16:34):

So we have several different ones. We do machine harvest some stuff but everything that goes to our retail outlets, anything that goes to Market Wagon or goes to our own farmer's market or anything like that that's all gonna be handpicked fruit and the reason...yeah. The reason for that is quality is so much higher in handpicked fruit. Because like you described, we have machines that can pick blueberries and they go over top of the bush, they shake the bush fairly violently and those blueberries--as they fall onto the conveyor--they tend to get a little bit bruised.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (17:06):

So that's gonna go into my blueberry pancakes, my blueberry donuts?

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (17:09):

Correct. So the majority, I would say 99% of the fruit that we machine harvest goes into our frozen line. So we wash them--the berries--immediately. We freeze them immediately before any of the bruising can really take effect on the fruit. And that's what goes into the five pound bags and the two pound bags of frozen.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (17:28):

But if a, if a listeners, you know, here's this episode it's gonna drop around July 4th happy Independence Day. And, they order Bowerman Blueberries on Market Wagon and get 'em delivered. Those were hand picked for quality and freshness.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (17:43):

100%, 100% of our retail blueberries are hand picked and that's,

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (17:47):

I'm blown away.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (17:48):

That is a challenge in itself. I will tell you, I mean, with a hundred acres of blueberries, we will take on anywhere from 60 to 110 hand pickers in a year to accommodate getting that volume off.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (18:04):

Wow. That's awesome. That's really cool. And, and it sounds like your parents are the hardest workers in that crew, right?

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (18:14):

Yeah. Again, they come from a different generation and you know, dad, when they, when they first started the farm, it was a struggle. And the blueberry industry wasn't well established and you know, they didn't have the logistics methods that we have today. So, I mean, for him, it was--it was growing blueberries during the day, and then it was packing them into a semi and driving them to Detroit at night. It was--and they did all that themselves. You know, we've grown today to be able to specialize in our different roles here on the farm. But I mean, one of the things that I love about being a farmer is that you really learn every different trade aspect, you know, being a farmer, Nick, and I'm sure, you know, this, it makes you become a plumber and an electrician and a builder, and, you know, and a social media marketer and a, you know, logistics, you know, person. I, I mean, there's just so many different

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (19:06):

Facets and a soil scientist too, right?

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (19:09):

Oh yeah. Oh man. Absolutely.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (19:11):

Yep. Test the pH levels and figure out how to amend. Oh yeah. Really cool. And what a Testament to the hustle and the entrepreneurial mindset of that last generation. I mean, like you said, picking by hand, building a market, driving at night to Detroit to get it going. And the legacy is here. It's what you've built today. Just a curious question. So your name is Andrew VanTil--where's Bowerman. Where does that fall in the family tree?

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (19:36):

Oh man. Bowerman. Bowerman lives with my wife. So I married into the family.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (19:41):

I see.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (19:42):

Oh yeah. And, you know, back when I first joined the farm, which was a little over 10 years ago, it was really more about hiring people that they could trust, you know, it was a growing...

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (19:53):

...and they trusted their son-in-law.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (19:56):

Yeah. Believe it or not, believe it or not, you know, marrying the daughter is one thing, but coming to work on the farm over,

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (20:02):

But taking the blueberry farm over

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (20:03):

that? Yeah. That's a whole 'nother ball game.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (20:06):

A whole 'nother set of vows, right?

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (20:07):

Yeah. Oh, trust me, dad was very protective of his daughter, but you wanna talk about being protective of the farm that was a whole nother hurdle to jump .

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (20:17):

Well, he's had those, he's had those plants since 1954, so...

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (20:20):

That's right, exactly.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (20:21):

Yeah.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (20:22):

So, no, but it's you know, I joined the farm about 10 years ago, back then it was a growing industry and a growing farm. And so they needed people that they could trust. And I came from a background of sales and production and marketing. And so that's kind of what I jumped into when I came here. I take care of most of our our sales channels. So things like Market Wagon, things like retail markets and restaurants and stuff, but then also our more, you know, national markets. So we ship our blueberries to all the Piggly Wigglys and the Walmarts and the Krogers of the world all over the country.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (21:01):

Wow. And so that's a direct relationship that doesn't go through, like a produce distributor or anything like that.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (21:06):

We do have a marketing company that we work with that helps us to distribute because again the logistics--what you do on your side of things, Nick--it still amazes me to this day because the logistics side of things, it's a struggle, you know? And I mean, even with rising gas prices nowadays, it's getting trucks to deliver. That's a talent in itself.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (21:29):

So it's, it's a fun challenge. And it's something that we know it's a challenge for farms. You know, you have been able, kudos you guys, to figure out how to be able to get distribution at a scale to, like you said, Krogers and Walmarts. But that direct to consumer relationship is really challenging because really the, the last mile, what we call the last mile distribution in Walmart, or in Kroger is the customer driving their car to the parking lot and putting a cart in their hands and pushing it down the aisle and for us to get it to their doorstep, to do that for them or for a farm to be able to do that, it's really challenging. So we've been excited to be able to bring that solution to farms like yours. And it's a great partnership. We love having you guys on board.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (22:09):

Yeah. And that's definitely our favorite relationship to nurture, you know, for the farmer it is best to go direct to the consumer. And so, you know, whether that be through our farmer's market here on site or restaurant or an offsite farmer's market, or a sales channel like Market Wagon, you know, the best relationship and interaction that a farmer can have is direct to the consumer. And that's the best relationship a consumer can have too, because they then know where their food is coming from and the story behind it. You know, I think, I think the general consumer nowadays is far more interested in where's my, where's my food coming from, who's growing it? And do they care about what they're doing? You know, I mean, I have a four year old daughter that comes to the farm and, you know, she walks right up to a blueberry bush and that's what she wants to eat right off the bush. And so, you know, creating safe tasty produce is what we're passionate about. And I think it's what the people who shop on Market Wagon and the people who are coming to the farm to buy produce and have that experience--that's the type of customer they are. They are far more informed about what they're getting and also just want to develop that relationship.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (23:22):

Yeah. And it's hard to get that relationship or to know, you know, because the shopper going down the aisle at a Walmart, you know, they're gonna feed that to their four year old daughter too, but there's an increasing I guess trepidation around, is this safe? What was put on it? What are the chemicals on this blueberry? And to know that we're sitting here talking to the guy who grows them and his daughter eats them right off the bush. And that means a lot. It means a lot to the people who can know that.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (23:49):

Absolutely. And one of the cool things that Market Wagon offers is it offers that direct communication channel from the consumer, right to the farmer.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (23:58):

So do you get a lot of questions that way? I mean, I know we have a chat right on our website, so customers can just hit you up. Do they light you up a lot?

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (24:04):

Absolutely. And thankfully I have a very dedicated team of people that are there to answer those questions, you know? And like we talked about how the average consumer is more informed. I I'm amazed at some of the questions that I get from people. You know, some of the people want to really know the intricacies of farming and of where again, where their produce comes from and the different farming methods that we use. You know, because again, we take a lot of steps to make sure that our food is safe, that our food is tasty, you know? And and that it's a very involved process that people want to feel like they're a part of.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (24:43):

Very cool. Well, thank you for investing the time to answer those questions, to, you know, entertain that relationship and entertain those questions and the curiosities of the consumers, because it makes--that's what makes the experience on Market Wagon worthwhile. So thank you.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (24:58):

Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We love it. We actually develop great relationships with with customers.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (25:06):

Very cool. Well, this has been a really fun conversation. I appreciate you sharing your time with us. Is there, other than on Market Wagon, we've talked extensively that people can find you online at Market Wagon, they can chat with you on Market Wagon. Where else can people find Bowerman Blueberries and connect with you?

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (25:21):

Oh man. Well, my, my first response to that is--has got to be come to Michigan, you know, come to Michigan. It's, it's such a beautiful state, you know, and we're, we're positioned, like I said, we're about a mile and a half from the lake shore. You can't find a more beautiful town and a more beautiful area--it really is blueberry country around here. You know, if you drive right down the road from me, you're just gonna see acres and acres of blueberries. But we have a lot of different ways that people can find us. So of course, come to Michigan, come see our farm, come pick blueberries directly from the bush, come experience, you know, all the different things that we have to offer. We did just open up a restaurant in downtown Holland, Michigan.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (26:03):

Again, it's an amazing cafe experience. It's beautiful windows wide open. We do breakfast and lunch there, and again, a full bakery and ice cream and all that kind of stuff. Market Wagon is gonna be the most convenient. I'll be honest. You know when you taste our products, you fall in love with them. The easiest way to get them to your front door is gonna be via Market Wagon. You know, it allows us to really spread that net out and reach customers that are in places that we never would've had the opportunity. So I have customers that vacation here in Holland, Michigan, and they fall in love with our products and I find out where they're from and I'm like, 'Hey, you're within a Market Wagon distribution network. So here's where you can find us--jump online, jump on Market Wagon. You know, we can deliver our products right to your door.'

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (26:52):

I love to hear that.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (26:53):

And we also I did mention that we're nationally sold in many different grocery stores. And that goes through our marketer who's North Bay Produce. And again, very passionate people about what they do. Amazing company that allows us to distribute our products all over the country. And again, that's another label that is a very safe and very trustworthy name in the grocery store.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (27:19):

So if we're at a supermarket and we see North Bay Produce, we can know one of the farms that they are putting into those clamshells is from you and others that you know.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (27:31):

Yup, exactly. There's about 11 other Michigan farmers and you know, we're all very close knit. We all help each other. We all keep each other in check and hold each other accountable. And so, yeah, it's a great network.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (27:43):

It's a tight community. Farming is a small community. And I think that in and of itself, the relationship that happens between farmers is also why it's just so relational between farmers and then the consumers that are, that are drinking or that are eating the food you grow. Hey, I've got one more silly question and maybe you'll laugh at me and tell me no. Any chance that there's gonna be a blueberry wine in the future?

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (28:08):

So we actually developed a blueberry wine last year.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (28:12):

No way!

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (28:13):

We did. Yeah. So...

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (28:15):

This was not planned. I--you didn't feed me this question.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (28:19):

No, no, I sure didn't so that's been something that's been on our radar for a long time, and I will tell you that, you know, the licensing process for that, you know, whether it's just to sell a bottle of wine that you created or to have somebody be able to enjoy it on site. That's a--it's a long process and it's very, very involved. And we went, we went through that process at our farm market last year. We had a blueberry wine developed, again, it blew me away. So we work with a lot of different, amazing companies. And when you think blueberry wine, well, I mean, the first thing that comes to your mind is like, oh, it's gonna be a very sweet dessert wine. It's gonna be, you know, yeah...

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (28:53):

Fruit forward.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (28:54):

Yeah, absolutely. And what we developed was a much darker red wine. It definitely has the blueberry notes right up front. It's definitely got an inherent sweetness. But it's a much more traditional red wine and it has, and it finishes like a red wine. And it's been, it's been extremely popular. We've been selling it like crazy over the last year. And we're definitely in the process right now of getting our license for our restaurant downtown, because we believe that, you know, people are gonna want to come and enjoy a slice of pie and a glass of wine at our restaurant, you know.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (29:33):

Well, we have been experimenting as well. And I'll have to check into again, the regulations are a huge hurdle, but we are now delivering Indiana wine on Market Wagon. We had to go through a lot of permitting, a lot of processes, and even change some of our own tech and processes to fit the regulations. Of course we have to check ID and all that stuff. But the other infuriating part about those regulations that they're different state by state. So we will have to start the whole process over again in Michigan, but now I'm motivated. So that's our next project. We're gonna go and check out what the rules are in Michigan, and we're gonna roll out our wine delivery. You heard it here, first folks, we're gonna do it in Michigan. Next. We're gonna figure out to get it done. And first product on the market's gonna be Bowerman Blueberry wine.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (30:21):

Oh, that's awesome. I can't wait. My wife has done several of the, like the mail order wine programs, where they send you a couple different wines each month to try. But if we had the ability for her to jump on Market Wagon and pull them from, you know, different farmers like ourselves, people that are again putting a lot of passion and creativity into what they're doing--I think that's gonna go over really well. I know, I'm also a customer of Market Wagon. I'm not only a vendor but I'm a customer. And my wife more specifically does most of the shopping and does a lot of it from home now--I think is a pretty, you know, common trend. But man, I'm, excited about the wine delivery. That's an awesome thing. If we can, if we can get over the regulation hurdles you know, for some reason America has a little bit of a history with bringing alcohol across state borders. There was something, you know, like prohibition...

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (31:16):

Something roughly a hundred years ago.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (31:17):

Yeah, yeah.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (31:18):

Isn't that weird how 100 years ago that problem is still persisting today.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (31:23):

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Even when getting our own liquor license there's some very some very archaic language in there that you're like, 'what?' What, no, we're not gonna set up a backyard, moon shine still, what is this?

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (31:37):

Check the box. Sign the--yes. We are not using old car radiators in any of our production process. That's for those of you who don't know that was a moon shine process. Alright. This has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you so much for sharing just a little bit of your time and your story about Bowman Blueberries with us. It's so great to hear about a multi-generation family business that is succeeding as your your farm is. I mean, congratulations on having distribution through some of the nation's largest retailers. That's incredible. And yet also taking the time to make sure you're building direct relationships with customers who want to know you personally on Market Wagon. So thank you so much, Andrew. I really appreciate it.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (32:22):

Absolutely. And, Nick, thanks for offering up such an amazing, amazing, you know, network for us to be able to connect directly with those consumers. You know, I can't tell you though how much the, the industry is changing. And, you know, when I, I look to, I look at people like you, who, you know, again, have an entrepreneurial type of soul that really wanna, you know, started with a family farm and want to reach out to those consumers directly. I mean, what you've taken your background and you know, help made it into Market Wagon and what it is today. And we're all using our different backgrounds to really kind of spread out, spread our wings and find different, avenues, different sales channels, different, you know, ways to market to the consumer and different ways to interact with them. So, you know, I really appreciate people like you in the industry. And I think it's really the next generation of farmers and what it's gonna take to to grow in this climate.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (33:20):

Thanks, Andrew. Thanks for joining us.

Andrew VanTil (Bowerman Blueberries Farm Market) (33:22):

Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Nick.

Christina shares her stories of growing up in a multi-cultural food home and what she learned and was inspired by before working in TV with Martha Stewart and other food lifestyle titans. 

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (00:01):

I think you're gonna love listening in to this conversation I had with Christina Deyo. She was my guest on this next episode of More Than A Mile. Christina is an Emmy award-winning producer of cooking shows and segments for Martha Stewart, Rosie O'Donnell, Emerald Lagasse and more. She now runs Cook n Craft Academy near Knoxville. And this is a great opportunity for me and you to learn from her amazing food experiences and about her love of supporting local food. Enjoy listening in to the conversation.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (00:31):

Welcome to More Than A Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon, focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmers market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. And I look forward to crafting a generational quilt of farmer stories and experiences, the victories and challenges of individuals, families, and teams doing their part to help democratize food in America. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than A Mile, and thank you for buying local food. It's one critical step in making an investment in food for future generations.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (01:21):

My guest today is Christina Deyo and I'm excited to talk about her business Cook n Craft Academy down near Knoxville. And guess some stories sounds like we're gonna get a lot of good stories of about the background that led up to this. So I'm looking forward to this welcome, Christina.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (01:40):

Well, hello, Nick. Thank you so much for having me.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (01:43):

You're an Emmy award winner--eight time. You teach kids and adults how to cook but now we can also buy your food on Market Wagon. So there's a lot of ground to cover and I'm gonna start all the way from the beginning though. You're--can you tell me a little bit more about your family background? Where did your cooking come from? Is that is that from history? Family?

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (02:07):

Yes. Mom and dad both cook. So my dad is Italian and he learned cooking from his mom. And so every Sunday I would be sitting with my dad watching him make homemade pasta, homemade sauce, meatballs you name it. It's great. I always say like, I've had the best of all worlds because yeah, you know, I've got the great delicious Italian food and then my mom is Slovak. So I've got the stuffed cabbage, the pierogi and the thing I love about you know, their recipes and how they've taught them to me is I feel like it has kind of linked me to relatives in the past that I've never even met. You know, it's a generational thing. It's a link to our history is, you know, those recipes just as like, what's your favorite dish that you had growing up?

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (03:05):

Me?

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (03:06):

Yes.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (03:06):

Something called hamburger rice casserole, which I've learned as an adult--it's one of those Campbell's soup can dump recipe, things that was basically made up and invented by the Campbell Soup Company in the fifties to try and sell their stuff.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (03:22):

Wow, and sometimes those are the best ones, right?

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (03:24):

Oh, it's just loaded with fat and sodium and it's just fantastic.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (03:29):

There you go!

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (03:29):

There's a lot of people that grew up in, you know, Midwest America, that those seem like the good old family recipes, like green bean casserole, a classic one. And they're inventions of our industrial food, you know, they don't have, they're not really rooted in the history like what you're talking about--coming across from the old world. Traditions passed down from generation to generation. So...

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (03:54):

But now that recipe that you love and you maybe make now for dinner, I'm sure it's something your children will love or do love and you know, years from now, when they have maybe kids of their own, they're going to make it and share it with their kids and so on and so on. Yeah.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (04:13):

Yeah. For all levels allow them to, sure.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (04:16):

Yeah.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (04:17):

So I I'd have to ask my mom where she even got that recipe. I should do that.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (04:20):

Yes, definitely. Especially, you know, we, we celebrate moms this month. I say celebrate them all all month long. But you know, it's interesting. I remember seeing a coffee table book that came out, I guess it was years ago and it's called "My Last Supper," and they got together 50 chefs and they asked them if you had one last meal, what would it be? And almost all of them referred to something in their childhood that mom made. Some delicious dish that mom made. And that's, that's what I take from, you know, my parents, I I'm so grateful for all the great recipes, even recipes that maybe gave me an idea. And then I made it my own and I added this. Yeah. Or that, and, and twisted it around a little bit. I mean, that's the beauty of cooking. And I always encourage, even in our classes or people I just meet on the street--take a recipe, make it your own, add your favorite ingredients. If it's a cheese recipe and you don't like cheddar, add a smoked gouda instead, whatever you like, make it your own.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (05:26):

But that's a level of creative exploration that I think a lot of people are terrified to do. Do you think that you learned that--I know that this is an Italian cooking. I don't know much about Slovak cooking, but in Italian, you, there is a there's--you're not measuring out the garlic. Right. You're smelling the sauce and you're sprinkling it in. You are working without the constraints of it is one and one eighth tablespoon of garlic clove, right? How do you think people who maybe didn't grow up watching their father cook Italian--from scratch every Sunday in the kitchen, how do they gain that freedom to experiment?

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (06:06):

Well, I think it comes with the confidence of cooking all the time or cooking on a regular basis. The more you cook, the more you feel a little bit more confident. I know my sister--now we're in the same family, my sister and I--but she was a little bit more book smart and you know, she's a neonatologist today, so I guess it paid off, but she does not cook. Now we have the same dad teaching us Italian and the same mom teaching us Slovak. But, you know, she doesn't cook because she just doesn't have the time for it. But I'm always telling her, you know, it's as simple as you could take a roast chicken, add a little salt and pepper and roast it slowly, and it's delicious. And it's not, you know, this involved recipe with sauces and things like that starts slow if you have to. But the one key thing which I love that Market Wagon stands for is really taking ingredients that are local to you, especially that are seasonal to you. And when you can buy organic, I mean it, you know. I worked for Martha Stewart for many years and I worked in her kitchen which she had a chef on her show every single day. And the one common denominator that they all really promoted was just cooking with seasonal ingredients. You know, buy what's in season, buy fresh.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (07:30):

Because that constraint actually forces you to be creative. Right? If it's the winter time and all you can get is butternut squash, you have to figure out how to make butternut squash delicious. As opposed to just buying in-- the stuff that you can get from overseas, that is no longer seasonable.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (07:45):

Absolutely. And you know, if you, if you are, can attend a local farmer's market or, you know, you can, you're lucky to buy on Market Wagon. You can buy now. And there's many things you can freeze for the winter, you know, or the months that are, they're not going to be in season take advantage of that.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (08:03):

So you asked me--you put me on the spot--and I told you about our deliciously awful hamburger rice casserole, which I'm happy to share with the rest of you.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (08:09):

It sounds delicious. It really does.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (08:11):

It really is. It's so good. there's not an ounce of nutritional value in it at all. What's your, what, what about you? What about your favorite, Christina? You, is there something that you watched dad make or mom making what's yours?

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (08:25):

You know, it's funny because when that book came out about your last supper, I thought, 'what would my last supper be?' And without a doubt, my mom's stuffed cabbage. It is just, I love it. And it's like, I have six kids and two of my children say that that is their all time favorite dish. And it's not even so much the like, you know, the deliciousness of it, the stuffed, you know, ground beef in the cabbage. I think when I eat it, it brings me back to my childhood and I can remember sitting at the table rolling cabbage leaves with my mom and her telling me about stories from her childhood. Oh my girlfriend and I did this, we ran into the neighbors, farmers backyard and we stole a carrot and ate it, was so good. And you know, just hearing those stories, it, there's just, it's so much nostalgia with it and I think that's what makes the food even that much better. But yeah, stuff cabbage is really my favorite.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (09:21):

Wow. All right. Well, we're gonna have to both share those recipes. I think the same is true for me. I, the hamburger rice casserole, granted it is loaded with salt and fat, which are two things that our bodies just naturally crave. But also I remember whenever I'm eating it, I can remember sitting in the back of the minivan on the side of the road at a--we would take dinner to dad in the fields during spring and fall and planting and harvest. He didn't have, I mean, that's just what it was like. You had to bring the food to them. And so having dad covered in, in you know, corn shaft coming over and sitting down in the car and eating dinner with us, kids in the car because we drove to the fields where he was and this casserole was really easy to transport. I have those memories as well. So you learned how to cook then you went into showbiz, right?

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (10:14):

I did. You know, I always loved cooking, but when I was a young kid, I knew I really wanted to work in TV. I didn't know to what aspect, but I knew I wanted to work in television. And so went to college, studied communication. And I remember my college professor day one my first class, it was a lecture hall. There were 300 students in the classroom. And the professor said out of all of you students, this, the world of communication is so competitive that only three of you in this classroom right now will land your dream job. And I look around the room and I see 300 people and I thought, oh my gosh, I need to be one of those three. How do I do it? So after class, I went up to the professor and I said, excuse me, I wanna be one of those three.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (11:06):

How do I do it? And he said to me, he goes, well, first of all, you've taken the initiative to really want to pursue it and have the passion. And that's the key is to have a passion that this is what I wanna do. This is what I believe in. He said, the second thing is, he said, you really need to believe that you should take your dream job. And if you have to work for free and not get it paid at all, take it. And so he said, start with an internship. So I did, I started with an internship at a local TV station. I loved it. They recommended you do it three days a week. I said, I'm gonna do it five days a week. and right after when I finished my internship, they offered me a job. Now I was a junior in college.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (11:49):

I still had a year left. And when they offered the job to me, I was super excited, but I did what probably any college student would do. I said to the boss, I said, let me go ask mom and dad if I should take this job. And I discussed it with my parents and my parents were like, you cannot take this job. You have to get your degree. You have to finish. And I said but timing is everything. And I may lose this opportunity. And my parents said, get that college degree. You know, reluctantly, I went back and I said, I'm sorry, I can't get this job. But in a year from now, I'm graduating. So I hope that it's available. And you know, and they repeated, well, timing is everything. And so a year later I graduated and I went knocking on the door and sure enough, there was no job for me.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (12:38):

And so I called every single day, I was persistent. I remembered the college professor saying, be persistent. And I knocked and knocked and everyday called. And one day, I guess I bugged them too many times. They said, you know what? We do have a job. They said, it's only a two week window. Somebody's going on vacation and we're gonna have you fill in. And I took that time and I ran with it and I filled in. And while I was there, a job opening opened up and it was actually for a secretary position. And I kind of wondered, well, you know, I went to college, I, I waited a year for that degree. Do I really wanna take a secretary position? And this girl who I considered my mentor said, get your foot in the door, take it. And so I took it. And the first week on the job, I messed up everything you could mess up.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (13:32):

I mean, I the guy, like he ordered a Turkey sandwich, a ham sandwich was delivered,

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (13:38):

Wait, wait, wait, you messed up food? You're not supposed to do that.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (13:43):

I know I, well, I wasn't cooking, but I ordered him. I ordered him a sandwich and the wrong sandwich came. I sent something FedEx. It was supposed to be overnight. It came two day delivery well, anyway, at the end of the week, he called me in his office and I knew it was coming. You're fired. I knew it. I was waiting for it. I'm like, how do I fight the tears? So they don't fall, like, you know, kind of put on your big girl pants and be brave. And he called me in and he said, you know, Christina he said, I have to make some changes.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (14:16):

And I thought, oh, well, yeah, I know here it comes. And at the time he had produced a show called the Morton Downey Jr. Show, which, you know, was kind of this conservative loud mouth radio host who kind of switched to TV. And he was producing the show and he said, you know, nobody on that show gets it. I've gotta let them all go. And I was like, okay, well, I thinking, how does that affect me? And he said, I wanna put you on that show. I think you could do really, really well. I'm gonna move you to that position. And I went and I worked there and based on my intern training, I really did very well. And from there, I like to say the rest is history. I did well, I got moved up to producer and just kind of continued my way in TV and loved it and loved working there.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (15:06):

And still had that love of food and a love of crafts with me. And so kind of went to some other TV shows like the Rosie O'Donnell show, Martha Stewart and kind of always lent myself to producing food segments or craft segments when I could just because I had that connection to it. And so that's how, like, the food just always stayed with me, even though I had this TV career. And so you know, it's, it's a detailed job when you're producing food, you've gotta plan those swap outs and you've gotta plan you know, each detail very specifically. And I use that same training philosophy when I teach at my academy. You know, sometimes when I'm teaching the students don't wanna wait four hours until the stew is finally done. So I gotta swap out for that. So I kind of lend my TV background to my academy, which has worked out well for me.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (16:07):

So let's talk about that and then transition from being a producer to starting your own small business. What was the most surprising thing?

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (16:18):

Okay. The most surprising thing without a doubt is I am not a businesswoman. I am creative. I am a great cook at least in my own mind, I think so.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (16:29):

I'm sure you are right.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (16:29):

My kids they say they are, but business wise, I am absolutely the worst. I don't have any business sense whatsoever. I actually made some scones for a local coffee shop and they said they would carry them. My pricing was so off it--the spreadsheet said you could buy a hundred cookies for a dollar, or you could buy 200 cookies for I think the same dollar. Like I thought I was doing a deal, but I was like hurting myself. I just, like, I was not good. I was like, I need a business manager. And thankfully my husband came in and helped out and helped get me on course. And I've been able to correct my ill ways, but...

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (17:17):

So the creative side of the cooking and recipes and exploring that kind of stuff doesn't always lend itself to running the spreadsheets and the numbers in the business.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (17:27):

Absolutely. And so for anybody who is thinking of, Hey, you know, I wanna start my own business, I encourage it. I think it's great. But wherever you feel you may have shortcomings or maybe you don't know the shortcomings yet, and you say, you know, I need help with this. Or you see you're lacking in a certain area, reach out and get help, like hire somebody or call in a friend or, or something. So it will definitely benefit you.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (17:53):

Where are you--how's the scone business these days?

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (17:57):

The scone business is doing really well. And thank you.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (18:01):

And you're making money at it. You finally got the prices, right?

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (18:03):

I've got my prices, right. We're we are selling them on Market Wagon, which we're excited about. But you know, when I made the scones--I'm not like somebody who's been making scones for 20 years and it's not a family recipe, but...

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (18:16):

Yeah, that's not Slovak and that's not Italian. That's baking.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (18:18):

Yes. So I had gotten a call from a group cuz we do catering as well. And they asked to do a tea party--and they wanted scones. And so I started baking scones and I couldn't figure out why some were falling flat. Some were holding its shape and looking fine. And I just said, well, you know, I've gotta kind of approach this as a producer and research. What makes good scone what doesn't and you know, one of the keys is frozen butter and the butter's gotta be grated really, really well. So the next time you make your scones, Nick...

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (18:54):

Frozen butter?

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (18:55):

Frozen butter, just like a pie would. And so, anyway, so I made the scones--everybody, loved them. Well, one night separate my husband and I went out to dinner and we went for after dinner to a walk to a local coffee shop. And he said, let's go in for dessert and get some coffee. And I said, great. And we walked in and my husband said, what do you have for dessert? And the girl said, we've got bagels. And we were like, bagels for dessert? Like, is that a Southern thing?

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (19:25):

No.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (19:26):

Bagels.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (19:27):

That's not a thing. It's not anywhere.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (19:29):

No, I was like, we, I mean New York, but that's a breakfast thing. So anyway, so my husband said your scones would do really, really well here. They're great for breakfast. They're great. Anytime he's like, let's email the owner and see if they like them. And I, you know--you sometimes I just--me personally, I never think it's good enough. And I was like, no, no, it's not gonna be good enough.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (19:51):

You didn't think your scones were good enough to sell at a coffee shop?

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (19:54):

I mean, I thought they were good. Yeah.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (19:55):

That was currently selling bagels for dessert?

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (19:58):

So anyway, so I, I baked some, so my husband actually emailed the owner and he emailed us back and said, I'd love to try your scones. And so like a week later I go there, I baked three different flavors, my orange, cranberry, chocolate chip, and blueberry. I figure those, everybody likes one of those flavors. And so since I work in TV, I figured I'm a good judge of character. So if you eat that scone in front of me, I can tell, do you really like it? Are you pretending to like it? You know, do you like it? So I brought them and I meet the guy and I'm like, here, go ahead, try 'em. And he said, well, I think I'm gonna take these in the back and try them with the staff. And in my head, I'm thinking, well, that's not gonna work because I'm not gonna be able to read...

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (20:42):

That wasn't the plan.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (20:44):

Can I come in the back with you? So he took the bagels. I mean, he took the scones and he

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (20:49):

Took the bagels. we're not cutting that by the way.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (20:53):

That's please, please. So he took, he took the scones in the back and you know, that night I must have looked at my phone a hundred times waiting for this guy to call waiting me no phone call. Next day, no phone call. Day after that, no phone call. And I'm wondering like, do they have the right number? Well, of course they have the right number. I gave them my business card. So the third day--and I'm kind of annoyed at this point--I thought, well, the very least the guy could do was call me back and say, you know what? They didn't work. They not, for us, not a good fit or anything. The third day, this woman called back from his office and she said, I'm sorry, we didn't get back to you. We've been very, very busy. And I'm thinking, okay, again, but you know, here's this build up to the failure. And she said, you know, I wanna let you know something. She said, the owner is a bit of a scone snob.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (21:47):

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (21:48):

And it was the first time I ever heard scone snob and...

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (21:51):

Right. That's not a thing.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (21:53):

Yeah. And, and it's not a thing, but it, it sounds like it's a thing to like a, a lead up to telling me that it's a no go. And so anyway, so she said, you know, he travels the world, getting different coffee beans and such, and wherever he goes, he always orders scones. That's his thing. He loves scones. And I was like, okay. And she goes, I wanna quote him. He tried your scones. And he said, these are some of the best scones I've ever had. And I thought, coming from a scone snob, I am running with that. I will take it. And so he said, she said, based on your scones, you can sell anything you want in this coffee shop, but please definitely your scones. So we've still been selling our scones there. And, um...

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (22:40):

What else do you sell there?

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (22:41):

We sell our banana bread, blueberry muffins, lemon loafs, a lot of similar things that I've now shared on Market Wagon, which has been doing well. People seem to really enjoy our baked goods, which we enjoy making.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (22:58):

Well I'll I wanna get to that, but you, okay? Yeah.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (23:02):

Are you a scone snob by any chance?

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (23:03):

I'm not a scone snob.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (23:07):

You like scones?

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (23:08):

I do like scones. I do. I like bagels too, but not for dessert. You know what I am a snob of is pancakes and this relates and here's why. It's because the reason I like pancakes is because pancakes are like cooking. You can--you can experiment with them. They're not as temperamental as baking. So, so I've made pancakes with, with sour cream in them, with apple sauce in them. I've cut all the sugar and milk and used just a can of Dr. Pepper for all of the sugar spices.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (23:41):

Oh my gosh.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (23:42):

Yeah. Don't put any vanilla in. Don't put any salt in, put any sugar in and don't put any milk in and just use a can of Dr. Pepper on the rest of your dry ingredients. And it comes with 23 different flavors. Also all the sugar that you're gonna need for it. And it's just a really good flavor. It's it's different. I love doing that. All that to say baking and cooking are vastly different things.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (24:02):

Oh, absolutely.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (24:03):

So you, we talked the whole first half of this conversation about how you learned to cook from your Italian and Slovak parents where you're experimenting and you're dropping new things in and you're not using measuring sticks and you're being creative. You can't do that in baking, can you?

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (24:20):

No, baking...

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (24:20):

Baking is chemistry.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (24:21):

It's a science. You really have to follow those recipes.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (24:26):

Where'd you learn to do that?

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (24:27):

Well, you know, I will say my mom did some baking, not as much with cooking, you know, we had our poppy seeds and nut breads and things like that. Yeah. But you know, I working with Martha for almost 20 years, Martha Stewart she had this mantra, you have to learn something new every day. And so she baked almost every day on the show and I would look at those recipes and say, you know, although I may not have time every day to bake on the weekend. I would say, I wanna try this. I wanna and if it didn't work, I was lucky enough to like go in on Monday and say, Martha, my bread didn't rise. Why not? Yeah. Did I do wrong? Or if she had a chef on the show, I could ask, you know, Emeril or Mario Batali or any of them, you know, tell me about this or Lydia. So I was very fortunate to have that, but you know, today, you know, thanks to the internet, there are so many like cooking videos or baking videos that for anybody out there who wants to try to learn you know, and can't come to Loudon [County] to learn and take one of our classes...

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (25:34):

Or for people who can't answer the question, how did you learn? I give you the question, how did you learn to bake? And I just love how nonchalantly--like it's not even a big deal--You're like, well, you know, Martha Stewart taught me and Chef Emeril. But anybody who wants to can Google it yeah. Okay. Sure,

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (25:55):

Well, I,--you know, I am--I do feel very fortunate to have worked with some of the greatest chefs that are out there and known today. And you know, Martha, she's not a, a trained chef. She never went to cooking school, but she learned from her parents, she learned from her mom. And she, you know, having her chefs on every day learn from them. So, you know, sometimes people will ask me what cooking school did you go to? And I'm like, I went to the Martha Stewart school of cooking where I just, you know, learned something new every day. And--but I'm not perfect. And I--there are recipes that sometimes go terribly, terribly wrong.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (26:35):

So alright. How did we become so fortunate to have your food offered on Market Wagon and delivered to people's doors? How did that come about?

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (26:46):

Well, you know, a friend of mine actually told me about Market Wagon and you know, I think the way she described it was, she said think of--because I do crafts--and she goes, think of crafts being sold on Etsy. She said, Market Wagon is like the Etsy for farmers. She's like, you get all this great seasonal, local food. It's awesome. And it's funny because, I think back in the day there was this commercial where the Hair Club for Men. I don't know if you remember that you were probably too young.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (27:23):

I do. Not only am I the president, I'm also a client.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (27:27):

I'm a client. And so not only do I sell on Market Wagon, I'm also a client of Market Wagon and you know, just starting to buy local seasonal, fresh food. I thought this is great. And a lot of the things I was buying, like I did buy a butternut squash. I thought, you know, I could make a delicious salad out of this or soup and I could then sell it on Market Wagon. And so a lot of the ingredients that we use, I get from your local farmers--again, buying what's in season, buying organic when you can. You know, buying local I will buy from Market Wagon. I often sell our things sometimes just at local farmers markets in town. And when I'm there, I love to hear what's, you know, what they have, what, you know, new things they have, what new varieties of tomatoes that we can add to salads, et cetera. And so when this friend had told me about Market Wagon and I started exploring, I said, this is such a great, great thing and was super excited to find out about it. And I tell everybody wherever I go about it, I said, you know, you've gotta check out Market Wagon and...

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (28:37):

Well, thank you.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (28:38):

Yes. Well, you know, I, I, I kind of like to be this walking advertisement and I, I don't only push my food. That's on Market Wagon. I just tell them, you know, you want a great head of lettuce, go on Market Wagon. You want some great tomatoes. You know, when you taste that fresh, locally grown--like fresh fruits or vegetables, it, it just tastes so much better than, you know, the store bought ones. I, you know, I just, I notice a difference. It's it's amazing. It's, you know it, I tell everybody to, to try it, you know, try it one time. If you, you know, you'll never go back and you try it one time. You'll love it.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (29:16):

Try the scones, maybe a bagel. all right.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (29:20):

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (29:21):

So well, thank you. For sharing your wonderful foods on Market Wagon. We know we can find food from you on Market Wagon. Where else can our listeners find out about what you have to offer and maybe even come and see you face to face?

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (29:38):

Well, we do go to local farmers markets in the Loudon Tennessee area, which is about 20 minutes from Knoxville, but we also do some Knoxville, local markets as well. And also our website CooknCraftAcademy.com. You can find our, if you're in the area and you wanna stop by, you can come by and buy local foods. You know, you can order online from us as well. We're not shipping our food right now, but if you're local to the area, you can buy online and swing by and pick it up. Maybe that'll be at one of our next phases is, you know, being able to, to ship food. But some of the things, the scones are easy to ship, but some of our salads. They, they would never make it.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (30:22):

No, they they're shipped through Market Wagon cuz we can get it there fresh.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (30:25):

absolutely. Absolutely. That's the nice trade off.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (30:29):

Great. Christina, thank you so much for being my guest today. It's been a delight to talk with you about your history and food and how you got into a food business. It's been a pleasure.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (30:43):

Well, I appreciate the opportunity. Go have a bagel on me.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (30:48):

I'll have bagel for dessert tonight

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (30:53):

And I'll ship you some of our scones.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (30:56):

Well and they better be the best scones in the world.

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (30:59):

Yes. And before you know it you'll be a scone snob.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (31:01):

I'll become a scone snob. You're gonna turn me into one

Christina Deyo (Cook n Craft Academy) (31:05):

Thank you, Nick. I appreciate it.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (31:07):

Thank you, Christina.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (31:15):

Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than A Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market Wagon at marketwagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More Than A Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, CastBox, PodChaser, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. Thank you for continuing to support local food.

Joy Beghtel and her husband Greg wanted more for their family so they bought a strawberry farm that they've transitioned to a larger asparagus operation. Enjoy the story and deep-dive into all things asparagus!

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (00:00):

Joy Beghtel joins me today to discuss hand snapping an acre and a quarter of asparagus spears with her family on their farm, Fields of Joy, in Anderson, Indiana. Enjoy this conversation as we dive deep into all things farming with this perennial crop and their transition away from strawberries.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (00:22):

Welcome to More Than A Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon, focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmers market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. And I look forward to crafting a generational quilt of farmer stories and experiences, the victories and challenges of individuals, families, and teams doing their part to help democratize food in America. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than A Mile, and thank you for buying local food. It's one critical step in making an investment in food for future generations.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (01:11):

My guest today is Joy Beghtel from Anderson, Indiana. Not very far from Indy, just a few miles up the road from where we farm and where the Market Wagon headquarters is at. Joy, thanks for being with us today.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (01:22):

Yeah. Thanks for having us, Nick.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (01:24):

So you grow one edible crop--and one only that I know of, right?

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (01:31):

Yes. . Well, one only that we sell on Market Wagon. Yeah. We do grow other things, but primarily just for our farm stand the rest of the year.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (01:38):

So you've got a farm stand where you grow some other produce for, but what do you sell on Market Wagon?

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (01:43):

We sell a lot of asparagus.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (01:46):

How much, how many acres? Is it measured in acres or row feed? How much asparagus do you have over there.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (01:51):

It is measured in acres. We actually grow that much. So I always laugh and say, isn't it every little girl's dream to grow up and own an asparagus farm. We right now have about an acre and a quarter of asparagus.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (02:06):

Wow.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (02:07):

Yeah, that's a lot.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (02:09):

Okay. That's a lot of asparagus and this is--for our listeners who don't know--this is a permaculture, right? So it's perennial.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (02:18):

Correct. It has a 15 to 25 year lifespan on it.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (02:22):

Oh, wow. That long. Okay.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (02:23):

Yeah. It just depends on the variety and I think kind of the weather and that sort of things, but we should get at least 15 years, we're hoping for somewhere around 20 on the plants that we put in.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (02:35):

And so when did you start this farm?

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (02:37):

Yeah, so we actually bought the farm in 2013. When we purchased it, it was a U-Pick strawberry farm. We kind of just stumbled onto it--kind of a long story. I grew up on a, what would probably be considered a small hobby farm. Probably not far from where you grew up, Nick. I grew up in Northern Grant County, so...

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (02:58):

Yeah, I actually showed dairy calves in Grant County.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (03:02):

Okay. I thought you said on one of your podcasts, that you were a Howard County boy and I was like...

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (03:05):

I'm a Howard County boy, but there was no other dairy farms in all of Howard County so I got special permission to drive to the next county over and show my Four-H dairy calves. Yep.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (03:15):

Very fun. Very fun. Yeah. So I grew up in Northern Grant County. We had probably what would be considered a hobby farm. You know, we did like a third of an acre of garden and had goats and chickens and rabbits and all of that kind of stuff. And so I didn't think much about it. I really had just an idyllic childhood looking back on it. It was all of that good stuff that you get living out in the country. And then I grew up and went to college, got a couple degrees in social work and Greg and I got married and started living the good life...

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (03:46):

Two degrees.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (03:46):

Two degrees in social work.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (03:47):

Because if you're gonna get one degree in social work, you may as well get multiple. Right?

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (03:51):

I mean, you might as well. And then end up growing asparagus. Right? I mean, why not?

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (03:54):

So it's a great application of that.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (03:56):

Yeah, perfect. My parents were thrilled. No, my parents actually are thrilled. I should say that they love what we are doing and how we're living our lives. So yeah, so Greg and I were just really happy living in Fishers, had a couple of girls and adopted our son from Ethiopia. And then as you do, when you have kids, I think probably Nick, you realize you get that itch to give your kids what you had growing up. And...

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (04:19):

That is exactly why we started our farm. I mean like, verbatim. I can't, I know that you can grow up to be a functioning adult without growing up as a farm kid, but I don't know how to make it happen because it hasn't happened to me. So...

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (04:34):

I don't know either. And I kind of, I told Greg I was getting panicked because I thought they don't, they don't have animals. Like cats and dogs to me aren't animals. I'm like goats, chickens. We have alpacas. We have, you know, I was just getting real nervous that the kids were not having the experience that I had growing up. So we started looking for a small farm and spent a couple years with a realtor, trying to nail something down when somebody at church casually mentioned like, 'Hey, I picked strawberries up at this strawberry farm in Anderson. And the guy said, he's putting his farm up for sale.' So I literally that day got in my van, loaded my kids up and drove up here. And I remember calling Greg from the field and just saying, I think I have found our spot.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (05:19):

Pack your bags, hubby, we're moving.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (05:21):

Yeah. We threw our house on the market. It was sold in two weeks. We closed on this place and we told ourselves, I remember my dad saying, 'you know, strawberries are not an easy crop to grow.' We grew them as kids. Right. You know, everybody grows a patch of strawberries, but this was...

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (05:36):

So you promptly ripped them out of the ground and went to asparagus.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (05:40):

No, I let myself suffer for three solid years.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (05:43):

Three solid years.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (05:44):

Oh yeah. Well we promised ourselves, you know, it was a business that we were purchasing. Not only was it a house that was as large as our house in Fishers, but we got five acres with it and it had a functioning business. So we didn't wanna just toss that out. You know, we're like I remember saying, we'll give this three years and see what happens. And I think what we didn't realize is when you grow large scale, I mean, three acres of strawberries is large scale. When you do that in central Indiana, where there's a lot of water, a lot of late frost, it's a real risky product and it's extremely weather sensitive. And it requires a fairly significant amount of chemicals that we didn't realize we were getting into. And so after three seasons where every season we had a four and a half to five inch rain--in a day--during that season.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (06:37):

I remember literally the third year walking into the house and saying to Greg, 'I don't care what you do, but I'm not growing strawberries anymore.' Like I'm done with this crop. And we had a real serious conversation after that season and really had to pivot and say what works for our family? What is not going to cause us a lot of stress and anxiety weather-wise what will still produce a good income and not consume our whole summer. And I remember laying in bed talking about this one night and Greg said, 'I think we go for asparagus.'

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (07:17):

How did he--had he ever grown asparagus before?

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (07:19):

So the farm when we bought it, in addition to the three acres of strawberries, had just kind of a lot of little stuff. Like there was about 300 feet of established asparagus. There was 40 fruit trees.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (07:30):

So you were also growing asparagus in addition to the nightmare of the strawberries.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (07:35):

Right. 300 feet. It wasn't a huge amount. I mean, I grew up with this asparagus patch as a kid. I remember it was the worst place to get chiggers in the whole world. You know, it, it was what it was. And so he said, 'I really think it's a perennial crop. It requires no chemicals. And asparagus is such a smart crop--when it is cold, it stays underground. When it is hot and sunny, it comes up. So you kind of--you're at the mercy of the crop and the weather, but it does not ruin your crop in the way that strawberries are so weather sensitive.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (08:15):

And are there natural predators to the--the strawberry issue is that the bugs that live in Indiana really love our strawberries.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (08:24):

Yeah. That and the fungus. Yeah.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (08:25):

Uhhuh. Yeah. What, what do you have, what do you have that threatens the asparagus?

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (08:30):

There's an asparagus beetle that sometimes we fight. But to be honest, we really haven't had a lot of issues. I've kind of attributed that to we don't have a ton of bug pressure on our farm. And I think part of that is we're in the middle of conventional fields. So whether I want to be organic or not. I don't have that luxury because I butt up to conventional farm fields.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (08:53):

So they're using chemicals that are actually--you're not spraying them on your field, but they're keeping the beetles away.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (08:59):

Right, right, right. And we're on the Indiana Drift Watch Program and we have a good relationship with the farmers close to us. We had a struggle with the farmer that was right next to us, but he sold that field and the other farmers are very conscientious. They've come, they've looked at what we're growing. They call us before they spray. So we've had a good experience.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (09:21):

Good. Now I have a similar experience. We grow a lot of sweet corn but we are nowhere near conventional ag. We're in the middle of Indianapolis. So there's not a cornfield for miles and miles around. So there's this moth that lays a larvae. If you've ever peeled sweet corn and you've got that one worm in there, it's actually a larva of a moth. And we thought that that was gonna be a big challenge. I've never seen a single one of them on our farm in four years because there's no other habitat for that moth anywhere around. Well the beetles that you're dealing with, can you deal with those with D.E.? Can we say that word? How do we say that word? Diet-tenacious...

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (10:04):

Diatomaceous earth. Yeah. We used it a lot for our chickens and all kinds of stuff. You know what though? The issue that we've really run into, which has been great is the asparagus beetle does not tend to cause a problem when we're harvesting. They tend to come out after we've already let it fern out. So at the end, when we're done picking.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (10:24):

They're damaging next year's crop.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (10:26):

They're damaging next year's crop. But to be honest, there is so much asparagus out there that they're not really doing too much damage. So...

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (10:36):

It's a welcomed population control.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (10:38):

Yeah. We've just been really grateful. We've not had to spray for anything. We fertilize once a year and that is it on the field. That's the only treatment that we do. Yeah. Other than, you know, mowing it off at the end of the season and a little top tilling at the beginning of the season.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (10:53):

So I was going to ask you because--and you brought it up. I know you mentioned that you are chemical free, so you don't use any chemicals. So what kind of--but you've said fertilizers--so what kind of feeding does asparagus need? Is it a heavy nitrogen feeder? Like tomatoes?

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (11:07):

It's a real heavy nitrogen feeder. Yeah. it's not straight urea but it's like a 35 or 30 dash zero dash five something. So it's a real heavy nitrogen.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (11:17):

Heavy nitrogen. Got it. Do you have chickens?

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (11:20):

We have chickens. Yep. We have chickens. We don't have enough chickens that we could fertilize this whole field. We have alpacas and we use every ounce of their fertilizer.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (11:29):

Is alpaca manure high in nitrogen too?

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (11:31):

It's fabulous. It's not high in nitrogen. It's actually kind of like similar to a rabbit manure. So you can put it straight on. No aging. I put it on all my flower beds, rhubarb, all that kind of stuff.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (11:42):

We have goats--goats and horses and we put their manure straight on in the fall after everything's out. And then just under and let it know it's aging out in the field. But we have we have 400 laying hens. And so we get a decent amount of nitrogen. I gotta tell you.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (12:02):

Maybe you should bring your nitrogen up here for my field.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (12:05):

Oh, I'm using--I'm hoarding it. Sorry. No sharing of the nitrogen.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (12:09):

We're that way with our goat and alpaca poop. We sometimes get requests for alpaca fertilizer and I'm like, 'Nope.' I use it on everything. Yes.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (12:18):

So it's a heavy nitrogen feeder. What is, I should know this, but I don't. What technically is asparagus? Is it a broad leaf? Is it a grass? What is it? You want me to edit this one out so that we both sound smarter?

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (12:33):

No, edit this one out. No. So asparagus is a crown. I don't know if you've ever seen what it looks like to plant it.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (12:38):

Oh, of course. Yeah. Yeah.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (12:39):

For sure. So when we decided to put in--in 2016 we put in 5,000 crowns. The next year we put in 5,000 additional crowns. So in addition to the 300 feet plus a little more, we had added to, we added 10,000 crowns of asparagus. And we're really lucky. I don't know if most folks would know that Michigan is a really good supplier of asparagus. That's where a lot of our asparagus comes from. When you get more kind of local asparagus. So there are a couple of different asparagus farms that sell crowns. So we were able to drive up to Southwest Michigan and right in front of us, they dug up the crowns. We brought 'em home, put 'em in fresh.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (13:21):

Oh, so you got to go get them. You dug them up yourself.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (13:24):

Yeah. They dug them right there for us, packaged them up and we brought them right home and got them directly in the ground.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (13:29):

So we've never gone into asparagus. I, and before buying our farm, we did we attempted a failed attempt at a small asparagus patch. The crowns just never took. And I may, maybe I didn't fertilize him. Right. Interesting.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (13:42):

Yeah. You've got a trench really far down. It's about 14 inches that you trench way down into the ground. And then it's a pretty laborious process to plant 5,000 grounds. I'm pretty sure we should have hired that out.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (13:54):

But you only have to do it once every 20 years.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (13:56):

That's right. Right.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (13:57):

Once every 20 years,

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (13:59):

Trust me, I will not be doing it in another 20 years. Somebody else will be doing the labor on that.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (14:04):

You will not be doing it in 20 more years. So you you've decided that you've got a cap to how long you want to be an asparagus farmer.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (14:13):

Well, I think yeah, In 20 years Greg and I will be pushing retirement age for sure. I think that's, what's so great about this farm--us buying it--was, although I would love to have inherited, you know, an old family property that I could have kept the legacy going. The really great thing about this property is we've been able to make it what we want to and transition it to what works well for our family. So I think in another 15 years you know, our kids will all be grown--if one of them wants to come back and put in the next round of asparagus or grow flowers. Great. If they don't and they wanna put in something else or, you know, if they wanna go and do something else, that's great too. I don't want to put any requirements on what they choose.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (14:57):

Until they get that anxiety that, oh my gosh, I'm not raising my kids with animals.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (15:02):

Well, you know, teenagers, I've got three teenagers right now. And of course they're all like, oh, we're moving to the city. We're gonna eat processed food all day long. You know, they're at that stage of life. And I think, yeah, maybe, and that'll be fine. And if not, we'd love to have them back and love to see them raising our grandkids out here.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (15:19):

Yeah. Well Anderson's not that far.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (15:23):

No, no. Anderson's a great community. You know, we've really had a good experience here. A lot of people kinda looked at us strange when we left Hamilton County and said really Madison County, but it has been a really great fit for our family. The community's been really welcoming and we love it up here.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (15:39):

Talk to me a little bit more about the family. So your family's involved in the farm. Are your kids--they are out there cutting asparagus and bundling it and bringing it to Market Wagon?

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (15:50):

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Our kids don't have much of an option. It's all hands on deck during asparagus season. They know that kind of late April to the beginning of June that's just what our family does. We kind of sign off from friends and family, say we'll see you in about four weeks. And we hit it hard as a family, so the kids harvest and then two of my kids harvest with Greg and then my middle daughter and I kind of trim it up and bundle it, weigh it all out and get it ready in the kitchen.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (16:19):

Wow. That's so great.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (16:19):

Yeah. And it'll be interesting. We don't know how much the crop will yield every year. That's the other thing that's unique about asparagus because it comes up from the ground, kind of like little fingers cropping out of the ground. We know what an acre of asparagus should produce when it is fully mature, but we're just now hitting that full maturity with our crop because it takes about three years for an asparagus patch to really produce fully. So, you know, last year we picked, well over 2000 pounds, we think this year we'll pick over 3000 and then we should level off somewhere in the next couple of years, somewhere between four and 6,000 pounds off of that acre.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (17:01):

Wow. Wow. Where, where all does it go? Do you sell that much on Market Wagon or do you sell most of it at your own farm stand?

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (17:11):

Yeah, we've got several different outlets. So of course the farm stand is always the first place that it's out because we can put it out here in our front yard, on our big cart and, and it is a little temperamental when it's cold and, and cloudy, the crop doesn't come up. We have to wait for a hot sunny day to get it going. Once that gets rolling and we're a little later in the season, we'll be at the Pendleton Farmers Market. We have a couple of different little grocery stores that we sell to. And then we're excited to hopefully do both Tuesday and Thursday on Market Wagon this year.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (17:44):

Yeah, yeah. You should.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (17:46):

We're thrilled.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (17:47):

Yeah. That's great. So, all right. We've kind of talked about it. We can, people can find you at Pendleton Farmers Market, on Market Wagon.com. You have a farm stand, right? So people can drive out to your place. How else can customers learn about you online or otherwise?

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (18:05):

Yeah, so we have our Facebook page and our Instagram, Fields of Joy produce. And then we should have asparagus this year at R&R Market in Pendleton and downtown Anderson at Collective Roots and then Wildwood Market downtown Indy. We sold with them for a long time. So we're excited to be in all those locations. Yeah.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (18:26):

Awesome. Now I don't know, Ross may cut this off, but I just wanna have fun learning a little bit more about asparagus and what you could do. So, and maybe this, will be the fun addendum to the end of the podcast. You said top tilling. So you have to go out and, and break the surface for the asparagus

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (18:42):

To come through. Yeah. Just helps to, to allow the asparagus to come up through the ground a little bit easier.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (18:47):

Do you use a disc or a rototiller for that?

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (18:49):

A rototiller. Yep. We just go slightly over the top of all of those rows. Our struggle sometimes is weed control and weed pressure.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (18:56):

That's my next question, right? Yeah. You can't because this stuff, it spreads underground. Right. So you cannot use a weed block of any kind.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (19:03):

Correct.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (19:04):

So what's the weed pressure like, does it eventually win? Like does it...

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (19:09):

Well, we hope not. We're hoping it doesn't eventually win. The good thing is that by the time we are done harvesting, that's really when you have your heavy weed pressure coming on. Right. So that kind of late May, we've already really harvested by the time heavy weed pressure comes on. And at that point, you let your whole field go to fern, that fern shades out those weeds, and they really don't get established. So other than thistle, we, you know, if we find thistle we go out and try to deal with that. Horse weeds, we had a horrible problem with horse weeds when we first--what we call horse weeds. Digging those things out, you know, making sure you're staying on top of seeds, all of that. But people ask us that all the time, do you weed your asparagus? I'm like, oh, there's no way I could weed this patch. And it's really okay. It doesn't bother me that there's weeds out there. Because we can pick around all of that. And then that fernage just kind of shades it out.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (20:09):

Yeah. So that's what I meant when I said, does it win? I meant does the asparagus eventually win? Cause I know that happens like corn. It will it'll canopy eventually. So you just need to keep ahead of the weeds until the canopy. But I hadn't thought about the fact that yeah, the weed pressure, you know, I always feel like I'm a big victorious vegetable farmer until like the first week of June. And that's when I'm like, oh man, , it's like a tortoise and hare race. And I'm the hare in the first month and a half of produce season and then the tortoise always catches up. All of those weeds become overwhelming. So what does harvest look like? How do you, how do you have to is it's not by hand, is it you're not cutting every spear?

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (20:51):

Every snap. We are, we are actually hand snapping every spear. So we've found it's just the best way, you know, there's certainly methods. People can use a tractor and you can lay on your belly and kind of pick it that way. We just, I know--

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (21:06):

I just picture myself telling my daughter, no, it's gonna be fine. You just lay under the tractor like this. Yeah. Daddy won't I won't roll over your legs. It's gonna be fine.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (21:13):

No, it's totally fine. If you look on YouTube, I'm sure you could find a whole bunch of creative inventive ways. At this point we are still hand harvesting it. You know, when we get to that four, 5,000 pounds, we may decide to, to invest in something different. But for us right now with our kids, we've hired a young boy to come and help us harvest. It is what it is. And that's what we say makes our asparagus different. It's not machine harvested where, you know, they set a height on the asparagus and it all gets knocked. At the same point, we are running our hand from the bottom of that spear up. We're finding that tender spot. We're popping it off there. And then it, it gets brought in. We sort all of our asparagus into four different sizes so that your full pound of hand snapped asparagus--not only can you eat the entire stalk because the entire stalk is tender , but it's all sized appropriately so that you can cook it in the same way and have a good success.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (22:13):

Because that is something that happens with store bought asparagus--you can't eat the bottom of it.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (22:19):

No, it's usually...

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (22:20):

Do they?

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (22:20):

We basically tell people it's not the same product. If you buy something in the store. It might all be sized similarly, similarly, similarly, but lemme get that word out.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (22:30):

Diatamatious earth...

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (22:33):

Diatamatious. Let's just call that DE. You're definitely going to cut the bottom third off to get to your tender spot where we've already hit that tender spot for you.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (22:43):

And is it a true cut and come back? Like you're gonna get another spear out of that same plant or it's just different spears are coming up.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (22:50):

Different spears. Yeah. So if you think about that asparagus, crown, that little crown that you plant with one little spear coming up, it will build every year. So off of that crown, you will have buds all of those buds then produce spears coming up off of the ground. And that's really where you get your different sizes. I think people sometimes think that the real thick ones are real Woody and you can't eat those. Those are just as tender. It's just an older bud off of that crown. So every year we should get more and more of the thin spears because new buds produce thin spears, but as they age, they get bigger. So yeah, so always we have lots and lots of different sizes coming up out of the ground.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (23:39):

One of the others--we talked about strawberries being a headache. One of the other headaches about strawberries is if you intend to grow anything else, you also have to be murdering strawberry plants every year because they want to, they want to invade and take over. Does asparagus do the same thing? Is it difficult to keep in place?

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (23:55):

No, we've actually we designed all of our field so that the asparagus has plenty of room to spread. That's what we wanted to do. So our older patches are you know, a foot and a half wide. Well, they're probably more like three feet wide at this point. And then when you plant your new patch, when we planted all of those 10,000 crowns, they were of course in a one little single row. And every year when you go out that wide, that road just keeps getting wider and wider. So we've left plenty of room between all of those rows, not only to mow, to keep a good walking path down, but to allow that one little crown to just take off over the next 20 years and start widening out and develop lots of different buds coming off of it.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (24:42):

Very fascinating. Thank you for the asparagus farming tutorial that most of our listeners would've turned off about five minutes ago, but this was great.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (24:51):

I'm not sure I should be proud of myself that I know quite so much about asparagus .

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (24:56):

You know, if it takes two social [work] degrees in order to know this much about asparagus, I guess...

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (25:00):

That's right. That's right. Well, I can do other things too. I can do other things too.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (25:06):

Oh. Joy, this has been great. I really appreciate you sharing your story and letting people know a little bit more about where their food comes from and how difficult and challenging it is to raise good, both strawberries and asparagus, and everything else because it just engenders, a greater appreciation for what you do and where our food comes from. So thanks for joining me.

Joy Beghtel (Fields of Joy) (25:27):

Hey, thanks for having me, Nick.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (25:34):

Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than A Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market Wagon at MarketWagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More Than A Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, CastBox, PodChaser, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. Thank you for continuing to support local food.

 

Mandy Anderson, co-founder of Lake Effect Kitchen in Grand Haven, Mich., talks about the ghost kitchen she and her partner started that was inspired by their children with autism and continues to provide learning and professional opportunities for differently abled individuals. 

 

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (00:00):

Welcome to More Than A Mile. Today, you're going to hear from Mandy Anderson, she co-founded Lake Effect Kitchen in Michigan. It's a catering company specifically designed to employ young adults with different abilities like her own son. Listen on to hear how it's going.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (00:17):

Welcome to More Than A Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmers market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. And I look forward to crafting a generational quilt of farmer stories and experiences, the victories and challenges of individuals, families, and teams doing their part to help democratize food in America. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than A Mile, and thank you for buying local food. It's one critical step in making an investment in food for future generations.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (01:09):

Well, my guest today is Mandy Anderson from Lake Effect Kitchen. And I'm looking forward to hearing your story, Mandy.

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (01:17):

Thanks for having me.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (01:17):

Thanks for joining me. So, Lake Effect Kitchen--you're from the beach side of Michigan. Grand Haven, is that correct?

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (01:26):

Yep. Sunny Grand Haven.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (01:28):

Okay. Are you from there originally?

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (01:30):

No, I'm originally from the Metro Detroit area. I moved over to Grand Haven in 2000. My spouse had gotten a job over here in this area and I had actually fallen in love with West Michigan when I was a college student at Hope College a few years prior to that. The beach is beautiful, people are friendly and welcoming, and it's just a nice kind of relaxing sort of vibe.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (01:54):

Do you think it's yeah, easier or better to start a small business in a smaller town? Or no?

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (02:00):

I think there's challenges either way. A bigger city might have more customers for opportunity, but a smaller town--they reach out more, I think, and really try to support small businesses because we know more people, we're more connected since there's--since it's a small town kind of feel.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (02:19):

Easier to be connected in the community and have the community support you?

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (02:23):

That's right.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (02:24):

Yeah. I'm a small town kid and now I live in a big city, so I'm always curious. So what sparked you and Aaron to start Lake Effect Kitchen?

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (02:33):

So Aaron and I each have a child on the autism spectrum. We served for five or six years together on the Board of Autism Society of West Shore, which is now called Autism Support of West Shore, our local autism advocacy organization. So we worked together to provide support for parents living with--and people living with autism. We were working together on all kinds of like family activities, but also trying to focus on the transition age student. So your older teenage student exiting the school system or just exiting high school and needing some kind of next steps: job skills, training, paid employment. A lot of them aren't working when they're still in high school, which isn't ideal. We need to get them out into the workforce and give them those solid job opportunities. So we started looking around for what, how we could support them and what we could do personally to, you know, bring that to life. And we stumbled on a catering business for sale. We thought we'd take the plunge and just kind of go for it.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (03:43):

So Lake Effect Kitchen began with buying an existing catering business?

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (03:49):

Yeah. We bought a facility that had been renovated into a kitchen and so it was in 2017 that we got started. And so the, the business that was here was doing meal prep and catering much like we're doing now. And we just sort of changed the focus a bit to be hiring and training people that have intellectual disabilities, including autism and other types of disabilities.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (04:16):

So that's a clear focus in a direction for your company is being able to teach job skills to people who are differently abled.

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (04:24):

Yes. And employment equity too. We don't pay a sub-minimum wage, which is also called deviated wage. We pay a full wage to all of our employees, no matter what their disability or not disability. And we want to get them out into the community, doing our catering events, delivering food to schools or locations so that people can see that people with disabilities are able to work. They want to work. They make great employees.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (04:55):

They make great food.

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (04:56):

They make great food. So, yeah, and that's a, you know, a great important point. This is the food is excellent and the people that we are employing are doing a great job learning as they go building those confidence skills and getting their first job. For most of them, this is their first job opportunity, their first job experience.

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (05:19):

Some of them are working on getting their driver's licenses or moving out of their parents' home for the first time. And they might be in their mid-to-late twenties and there's, you know, but we're helping them work toward those goals as well. Work provides that--that dignity, that opportunity to earn and support yourself. And it's also a good social opportunity that we spend a lot of hours at work. And we make friends there and then that can turn into, you know, more social opportunities that they don't always find on their own, especially once they exit the school system. There isn't a lot of opportunity for that if they're not working.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (05:54):

Yeah. So you're a for-profit company, is that correct? For-profit business with a mission. That is a challenge. I know because Market Wagon is a for-profit business. We have a mission to enable food producers to thrive, and I know we constantly are coming up against situations where it might seem like it could make us more money to do something that's off mission. Do you ever come across scenarios like that where you have to make the decision to take mission over profit?

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (06:26):

Definitely because some of our employees need more support and not just learning the job, but to maintain their level of job performance, just retraining and someone to come alongside them. There's a lot of situations where I could just have one non-disabled person doing the job, but I end up paying for two or three people to do that job so that we can create those opportunities for people with disabilities. So there is an additional cost involved in some of this, but I tell people--you know, I went to journalism school. My goal in life was not to be a caterer but--so, you know, the food isn't the reason for this. The mission of employment equity is the reason for that. So we try to focus on keeping our employees in their jobs and supporting that, even though it ends up more costly and hits the bottom line,

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (07:20):

The impact is the important part. And the food happens to be a means for you to be able to create that impact.

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (07:26):

Correct. Yep.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (07:28):

Well, that's, that's wonderful. Thanks for sharing that. And so we've talked about the for-profit side of your business Lake Effect Kitchen, that you and Aaron created. Now, there's also a nonprofit arm, is that right? Eat Well, Do Good. And that's a nonprofit. Tell me about that.

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (07:43):

Correct. We were hitting kind of some of those numbers that weren't looking as good as we'd hoped. So we tried to find how we could bring in more revenue to be able to continue to support these employees and, and bring more jobs. So we decided to start a nonprofit. We had been asked a number of times by a number of different people, why we weren't a nonprofit to begin with. And switching over was gonna be too cumbersome. So we just decided to open a new LLC. I had been using Eat Well, Do Good as sort of our hashtag tagline at Lake Effect Kitchen. So we decided to go with that for the name of the nonprofit. We got our IRS certification last summer. And so now we have the website and socials up and running. The idea behind that is to raise money, to support the mission, not just for Lake Effect Kitchen, but to hopefully be able to provide money for other small businesses in the area who might want to take a chance on hiring some of the young adults in the area with intellectual disabilities. And that way they don't have to put their own money in. We can maybe support them with three or six months worth of wages to give them a chance. And then if it's a good match and everything's working well, then they can take them onto their own payroll. And it'll be a good longer term relationship for the employer and the employee.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (09:09):

Very cool. So the two work together: Eat Well, Do Good and Lake Effect Kitchen, kind of compliment one another. And you're also then being able to help other businesses to carry on the same mission that Lake Effect Kitchen has.

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (09:22):

Yes. That's the goal.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (09:24):

That's really neat. So, all right. Let's go back to the business side of things, because I love business. So ghost kitchens--would you consider yourself a ghost kitchen? Is that...?

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (09:31):

Definitely. We're in a kind of a little funny corner of town. We're not in the downtown high traffic area or anything.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (09:38):

So nobody's coming to you.

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (09:39):

So people do not come here. We used to have pickups for meals. When COVID hit we had to figure out what we were gonna do because we couldn't have, you know, 80 people coming in to pick up their meals every Tuesday. So we just decided to go to a fully only delivery model, which actually has worked out really well. I think people like the convenience of it. They don't have to remember that Tuesday's the day they gotta come and get their food. So there really is not much of an opportunity for people to come to the facility. We are an all production facility. We don't have like seating in front of the house type of anything. It's just, when you walk in, you are in the kitchen.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (10:19):

Now I think most people have come to know, especially in business, what a ghost kitchen is since COVID, it kind of popularized it, right? Because delivery became pretty key. And, but you started this, you, you were doing ghost kitchens before ghost kitchens were cool back in 2017. Di you call it that back then?

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (10:37):

We didn't. I mean, we'd heard a few, a few people start to use that term. People have used the term commissary kitchen, incubator kitchen. There's some other terminology that people use. We weren't using it at first, but it really does do a good job describing, you know, that we are, the facility is kind of invisible. What really matters is the food is going out either to the catering events or wherever.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (11:01):

So it's all being consumed off from premise.

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (11:02):

Right.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (11:03):

Okay. Well, one of the ways that it's going out is through Market Wagon, so let's talk about that real quickly. And about your menu. So if a shopper is on Market Wagon, they're gonna take some of your meals home with their local food delivery. What are they gonna find? What kind of stuff do you have out there?

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (11:19):

Well, our menu changes each week. We do kind of a two month cycle. So we look at what's seasonal [for] ingredients. What kind of vegetables are available in the winter versus, you know, spring and summer? We have a couple of chefs that work on the menu together. So we'll have a couple of different soups. We'll have usually a vegetarian option or two--or a vegan option or two each week. You can order a' la carte or you can subscribe and just kind of get like a meal pack and it'll be a variety of whatever we happen to be making that week. So there's usually something for everybody. There's a whole muscle meat dish, like a, a Salisbury steak or a chicken breast meal or a pork chop kind of a meal, just a real meat and potatoes type of a thing. And then we also have handhelds--our sweet potato burrito is pretty popular.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (12:11):

Sweet potato burrito?

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (12:12):

Yeah. And I'm not a vegetarian, but it is, it's an excellent meal. It's tasty. It's kind of got some new flavors that you might not get at when you think of a burrito, but yeah, the chefs are creative and they come up with some really good, some really good meal options. So there's eight to 10 things available each week. And we try to run the favorites, you know, bring the favorites around every so often. Chicken jalapeno soup is always a popular one.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (12:41):

Chicken jalapeno? What's your favorite?

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (12:43):

I think chicken jalapeno is probably my favorite. It's a cream-based soup. And it's got, it's got a little bit of heat to it, but it's not too overpowering. So, you know, you don't have to go running for the pitcher of water.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (12:54):

Right. Jalapeno done right, it's got good flavor. It's not just about the heat, but--I like the flavor of jalapeno too. Yeah. People usually miss that. Okay. We talked to the beginning about your relationship in your community. Have you been able to build relationships on Market Wagon with customers that are shopping with you online too?

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (13:12):

We have, we have a few customers that email us regularly and just to give us encouragement--and one person even orders our meals regularly to give out to single moms that they happen to encounter and just support other people in their community, which is a great use of our meals. We encourage that for like meal trains. I'm thinking of--I'm involved in the foster care world and we try to provide meals for foster families to kind of ease some of that burden. So we love to see when people are using our service to provide meals, not just for their own family, but for other families who might need them or just need a break.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (13:51):

And are you able to get everybody to understand what's behind the food? Like what the mission is that you are carrying out with this menu that, that it's, it's delicious food. It's good food. They should buy because it's good. But are--do you feel like people that are eating your food also understand that they're a part of carrying out this greater good for differently abled individuals that you're employing?

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (14:12):

I hope so. I mean, we try to highlight some of our employees on our social media and on the Market Wagon newsfeed. We try to talk about what we're doing with the nonprofit and with some of the new things that we have going on, including the food truck that I think we'll talk about pretty soon. And just let people know that this is--it goes beyond food, great food, we all need it. It's fun and tasty and all, but the real reason behind it is to keep people working and engaged in the community.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (14:41):

Yeah. Food with the purpose. So, okay. I was getting there, tell me about your food truck.

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (14:46):

So yeah, so the city of Grand Haven bought a couple of new trollies for the trolley tours that go on around here in the summertime with the tourists and everyone. And so they put the two trolleys that were now out of service up for a bid. And so a bunch of us local businesses put in bids and we were chosen to acquire one of the trolleys. We got blue trolley number four, and we are working on fundraising right now to refurbish that into a food truck. So we're gonna strip out all the seats, put in a hood system, all that good cooking equipment and everything, and hopefully be ready to roll, once the summer season starts--and start serving some food and vending out in the community,

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (15:27):

Is it seasonal? I mean, do you have a lot, like a tourist season there on the...

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (15:33):

We do. We have a very big tourist season here in Grand Haven, and we have the Coast Guard Festival. We are Coast Guard City USA. So I believe we bring in about a million people for that 10 day festival every summer, and Grand Haven is not a big place, so a million people, it is jam packed, but we have a carnival and all kinds of fun things going on.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (15:55):

So it's not a food truck, it's a food trolley.

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (15:58):

Right, right.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (16:02):

Michigan's first-ever food trolley.

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (16:03):

Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's really good looking. It's blue and the woodwork inside is, is really cool looking and everything. So I think it's yeah, it's gonna be a big attention grabber, which is helpful being a ghost kitchen. We don't get a lot of attention on our actual building, which is just a converted house. So it doesn't the looks of that doesn't stand out. So hopefully the trolley is gonna be kind of a showpiece and a fun, you know, historical marker for the city and also serving some tasty food to everyone down on the beachfront in the summer.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (16:37):

So I just have these pictures of like a San Francisco trolley. I mean, do you have a bell or do you have a whistle or anything? That'll make it really fun?

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (16:44):

There is a bell. There's a string and yeah, we took it--I actually took it with some of my kids and some of our employees on a little tour around town on Sunday, just because I needed practice driving it. It's kind of big . And so we were driving around and I was having my son ring the bell while I was driving through town.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (17:01):

Did you hit anything?

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (17:02):

I didn't, I didn't even hit any curbs, which is a kind of a running joke with my family because I drive a big vehicle anyway and I do hit a lot of curbs, but I didn't this time. So I did well.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (17:14):

My trick--I drive for farming, you know--it's truck and trailer a lot and you never wanna pull--you always wanna know how you're getting out of a street when you pull into a street, when you have to put it in reverse to get back out.

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (17:27):

Yeah.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (17:28):

You turn cautiously.

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (17:29):

I tried to not reverse at all. Cause there's no, there's no backup camera. Right? Like my vehicle has a backup, a camera. There's no camera on this thing. , it's just this great big trolley. And it's got like even the front, it's got a cow catcher on the front. So you know, that adds a little extra length that you gotta take into account when you're making those turns.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (17:47):

That's great. Will it require any additional training or care with the staff that you work with being in a different scenario? Out into the public and under a lot of pressure, like a quick serve kitchen, it's a different kind of pressure than a ghost kitchen, right? Fast service.

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (18:04):

Oh definitely. I think that it's gonna be learning curve for all of us. I've never run a food truck before. I've worked in fine dining restaurants, but I've never worked in a quick-serve type of a restaurant. So yeah, we're planning hopefully a month of training and small soft opening kind of events to get everybody up to speed. We'd also like to include an extra position for kind of a greeter person, a host for the food truck, which will be a great position for someone like my son who has autism or someone else that might not really be able to run the cash register or something like that, but can welcome people to the food truck. Talk about you know, why we're doing what we're doing, hand out a little literature or something and just sort of explain, you know, what we're serving that day, what the process is and all of that.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (18:53):

That sounds like a great way to get your message and your mission out into the community even more, so congratulations on that next venture.

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (18:58):

Thanks. Yeah, it's exciting.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (18:59):

I'll follow that with interest. Okay. Well aside from looking for the bells and whistles around Grand Haven, listening for the bells, how else can our listeners find you on social media? Where are you at?

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (19:13):

We're on social media. We're on Facebook and Instagram and then we also each have a website for Lake Effect Kitchen and for the nonprofit. So LakeEffectKitchen.com and EatWell-DoGood.org.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (19:30):

EatWell-DoGood.org and Lake Effect Kitchen on Facebook and Instagram.

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (19:35):

Yes. And at LakeEffectKitchen.com. Yep.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (19:39):

Okay. Well Mandy, thanks so much for joining me today.

Mandy Anderson (Lake Effect Kitchen) (19:42):

Yeah. Thanks for having me. It was fun.

Nick Carter - Host (Market Wagon) (19:50):

Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than A Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market Wagon at MarketWagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More Than A Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, CastBox, PodChaser or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. Thank you for continuing to support local food.

Lori Taylor, founder of The Produce Moms, joins Nick to talk about the origin story of her company, the importance of ethically serving and advocating for their audience, and working to get produce on the plates of kids (and adults) everywhere. Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (00:00):
Welcome to More Than A Mile. Today I am joined by Lori Taylor. She's an Indianapolis native who turned her solo blogging gig into a nationwide platform that earned her a seat at the table with the U.S.D.A. to make sure school lunches are healthier. I hope you enjoy it.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (00:17):
Welcome to More Than A Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon, focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmers market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. And I look forward to crafting a generational quilt of farmer stories and experiences, the victories and challenges of individuals, families, and teams doing their part to help democratize food in America. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than A Mile, and thank you for buying local food. It's one critical step in making an investment in food for future generations.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (01:07):
Well, I'm excited to have my guest today, Lori Taylor. Lori is the host of another podcast, The Produce Moms, and a lot more behind that than just the podcast, but I was able to be a guest on Lori's podcast almost exactly a year ago today, I think. And here we are. I get to put Lori in the hot seat and ask her the questions about her story. Lori say hi.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (01:31):
Hello Nick. Thanks for having me. And for all of you that are with us today, here you go. You've got two people who love a microphone in one episode. So saddle up it's gonna be a great conversation.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (01:43):
Oh man, that's a great intro. We're gonna be talking over each other the whole time. Perfect. So how long have you hosted your podcast? You--this is what episode? This is less than 10 for us. So I I think you...

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (01:58):
Yeah. We started in 2018. And so we just, you know, in terms of milestone episodes, we are you know, we recently published episode 200 and you know, we're, we're staying committed to at least our, our primary show publishes every Wednesday. And what we have learned is you know, folks are kind of leaning on us for what we call miniseries. So for instance, you know, I'm not sure Nick, when this is gonna publish, but you know, we're in the month of March right now, and we are celebrating the International Women's Month. And right now we are doing a Friday series with Nature Right Farms to spotlight women in agriculture. So yeah, I love anytime you see a Produce Moms podcast pop up on a Monday or a Friday, that means we have a really cool, special edition. So but yeah, our primary show run publishes weekly every Wednesday.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (02:54):
Cool. So The Produce Moms--tell us, but let's start with the title. Tell us what The Produce Moms is all about, what's that mean?

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (03:03):
Okay. Well, it means that if someone were just to ask me, like, why did you choose The Produce Moms? Okay. So I'll, I'll tell you the real, the real definition of my business. You know, that elevator pitch, after I tell you what's in my heart about my business. So for me, you know, I truly believe that if anyone can change the world, moms can change the world. And as it relates to the consumption behaviors for the healthiest food in the world, which is fresh produce--fresh fruits and vegetables, it is a struggle that unifies all, all moms, you know, like kids are just, it is extremely difficult to get our children excited about fruits and vegetables. And frankly, it's extremely difficult for us as moms with all of the pressure that's coming our way with running our household, working outside the home, being a good mom, it's extremely difficult to you know, be deliberate about what you're putting into your own body, you know?

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (04:02):
And I think that the, the rise of social media has exasperated that like mom guilt, you know, you see all these you see all these like Instagram perfect mommies. And you're like, oh my God, I am, I, I am a loser. I am fat. And my house is a pit, you know? And so that is, and so I think that all of that combined, like when I think about what The Produce Moms is all about our business, our community is simply a place for you to come. All people, you don't have to be a mom. You know, I mean, there, if you want to eat more fruits and vegetables, you are definitely in the right place when you visit TheProduceMoms.com. But you know--all of that pressure that I feel as a mom has driven me to stay steadfast with my commitment to making my business a welcoming place where all feel like they can belong.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (05:01):
And so now that, you know, I guess kind of my motivation , you know, what is The Produce Moms? Well, we're a media platform or a lifestyle brand. But we're so much more than that, you know, and I hope that as we carry on in this conversation, folks can kind of see that come to life. But our mission is to get more fruits and vegetables on every table. And I founded this business in 2012 as an employee of Indianapolis Fruit Company. I pitched it as the marketing director and then in 2015 I had the opportunity to take it off on my own. And I took that entrepreneurial leap at that time because I knew we could great things with The Produce Moms. And that is, you know--and that is exactly what we've done. We've built the number one resource on the entire internet that's fully focused on fruits and vegetables. Yeah, thank you. It feels amazing, you know, when I think about it, but I also have a tremendous amount of responsibility now, too, you know?

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (06:03):
Oh yeah. Everybody's looking to you.
Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (06:04):
Yeah. And I have to make sure that I stay true. I mentioned, you know, that I worked at Indianapolis Fruit Company. That's how I learned, you know, that's how I gained the knowledge to be a industry thought leader, to be a person who can share these facts with folks about fresh produce, the food supply chain, agriculture--it's because I worked in the supply chain myself for a whole decade. And for 10 years, I sold fruits and vegetables to grocery stores really throughout the central corridor of the United States. An 18 state region, over 300 groceries, all sizes formats. You know, I just learned so much when I was selling it and now, and one of the biggest things I learned Nick, was people don't understand fruits and vegetables, you know, I mean, even within the trade, as someone who was selling fruits and vegetables, I didn't know these brands that I was selling. I didn't have any...

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (06:58):
As the seller they were just another line item on a wholesale price list for you?

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (07:02):
It was just a name on a box you know. And when you consider the timeline for when I was at the sales desk, you know that 2005 to 2012, essentially--that was the, it was hit or miss with whether people even had a digital presence, you know? And they certainly..

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (07:25):
Web 1.0, right?

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (07:27):
Pretty much. I mean, we were really revolutionary in 2012, launching a WordPress blog.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (07:33):
You know? So that is--but it is it's been a tremendous honor to usher in this kind of access to the, in consumer for all of the growers and supply chain stakeholders that we proudly represent. You know, it's, it's been a true honor to represent moms as we kind of push on the supply chain, like, 'Hey, get more transparent, tell us facts about farming, you know, help us answer these difficult questions.' Like we don't understand why you use pesticides and we want you to tell us why. And then, you know, I mean, those are all things that we've been able to be a real catalyst to increase education and understanding of fruits and vegetables.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (08:16):
That's really cool. I wanna talk more about that. I wanna talk about the mission that you have and how you're accomplishing it today. But first I want to go a little bit deeper into your origin story. I appreciate you sharing all of that, but so 2015, you've got a solid gig. You're head of marketing. You're at a decently large company. You've been successful and you've been there over a decade and then you leave and you go start, a what? Edutainment company, what does that look like? How does that risk, that jump out on your own, walk us through that mindset so many years ago.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (08:54):
So it's really one of my favorite stories to recount because I can't believe I had the guts to do it and I can't believe I had my family support, but 2012, I mentioned previously that's when the blog went live, you know, and we monetized it as a brand property of Indianapolis Fruit Company. We were able to get brand sponsorships, you know, ad incentives. There were a lot of different ways since we were directly tied to a procurement house, there were a lot of different ways that we were able to monetize this you know, B to C marketing that we had launched. So, you know, three years we built it together and Indy Fruit, my former employer, they supported me at the highest level. I mean, non-family member at a family-owned business. Like they empowered me to bring my idea to life. And then they supported the growth of it and we grew it to where it was self-sustaining, but it certainly wasn't like this big cash cow for the company.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (09:48):
And when you consider the supply chain of fresh food the wholesale distribution stage of the supply chain, you're talking about the middleman. Okay. I mean, like really does marketing even make sense, you know, . And so it really, it wasn't part of their core value or mission to have this whole brand that was dedicated to nothing more than marketing at the time. In 2015, when they said, 'Hey, Lori, bring your laptop and meet us at lunch. at downtown Indianapolis offsite,' I mean, I knew something was up when that happened. I was like, okay, I'm getting fired. And my husband assured me, he's like, no way you have way too many solid relationships with their vendors for where they're gonna fire you. I was like, yeah, well, something's up? And he, we agreed when I went off to work that day, something was up.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (10:39):
Side note, and for listeners, if your boss asks you to start your Monday morning at an offsite meeting

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (10:45):
Yeah, well, it was a Friday at that, so it was a Friday Nick. So even more like, oh, eyes wide, open something's coming. And...

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (10:54):
Oh geez. And so I go to this I go to Mesh On Mass in downtown Indianapolis and have this meeting with the, you know, executive vice president and the CFO of the company and myself and my laptop. And they tell me, after an awkward, you know, small talk of how are your kids let's order some salads, yada, yada then they say Indianapolis Fruit Company is done with The Produce Mom. And at the time it was singular, The Produce Mom. And I, it was just, I couldn't help it. The tears just came down. Like, I didn't know what to think about that because it was at this point, three years into this--2015, it was my only job at the company. And so my first response was, well, where does that leave me? Because that is my only job responsibility. And they said, well, we're not looking to get rid of you, but we're not going to carry forward with The Produce Mom.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (11:52):
And I was very confused. Well, they slid a legal document across the table for me to read. And it had very clearly mapped out two pathways. Pathway A was we sunset The Produce Mom, you know, the blog and the digital platform. And I basically go back to my job as a sales representative. Then option B was I could buy it, you know, and take it and do whatever I want with it. I could buy back my idea and all of my work for hire--all of the IP that we had built. And, you know, so it's 2022--you know what I chose .

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (12:33):
Wow. Red pill, blue pill, right?

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (12:34):
Yeah, pretty much. And when I looked at that and I, I was like shocked, obviously...

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (12:42):
Did you decide that right there over salads or did you take those two documents home and tell your husband what was up?

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (12:49):
Okay. So a little bit of both. I shoved the paper because at this point I'm mad and I'm crying, you know, and I'm like, oh my God, don't let these men see you cry. You're stronger than this. Well, at this point I took the paper and I literally just shoved it back across the table. I said, 'Well, I'm buying it.' And my exact words were, I would be a caged animal going back to the sales desk and sitting in a cubicle. And they just looked at me and they were like, okay. And then they had another document that had the price and I could not believe the price. I mean, we're talking six figures. More than the home that my family and I lived in. And so at that point, I said, well, I'm gonna need to talk to Chip, who is my husband . And so I gathered my things and I left. I was like, I don't want the salad, you know...

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (13:42):
I was getting ready to ask, how was the salad?

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (13:44):
You know, I need to go back and give Mesh On Mass another another shot, because I have not been back to that restaurant since this day in 2015. But yeah, I gathered my things. I was pretty upset as you can imagine. And really just felt like I was at this crossroads that my family could not--like, we, I felt like we really didn't have an option, you know, like I knew where my heart was at, but we were a young family. We had two children under the age of like four years old. I was making $43,000 a year at my marketing job. Like I certainly didn't have money for a six figure acquisition. And and I did not know how we were gonna do it, but I, I knew that that's what I wanted to do.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (14:32):
And I also knew from the documentation that I had to let them know--it was April and I had to let them know by the end of May if I was planning to buy. And so I went home and we just kinda tried to figure out how can we do this? I mean, we knew considering that we were, you know, we had recently bought a home that was, you know, kind of a stretch for us. And this price point was more than our home, you know, and we had a mortgage on that home. I was like, I don't, no one's gonna loan us money. You know, we knew that. And so I cashed out my 401k and then I borrowed money from my family. And that's how we were, that was how we were able to do it. And then I will tell a quick story too, about how we negotiated the price.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (15:21):
And when I realized my husband and I are a true united front I had to go to all these, you know, smoke and mirrors meetings, where they were justifying the six figure price and going through all the documentation, trying to help me understand what it means to buy an IP portfolio, because you've got to think in 2015, we did not even have a national audience. The unique monthly, or the unique annual visitors to our website were less--like we get that number now about every 14 days on The Produce Moms. Like, you know, it is it, I wasn't buying the super robust digital, anything, you know, we had a regional audience. Less than a hundred thousand annual visitors to our website. Yeah. I did have one brand partner who told me that they gave me a verbal commit that they would stick with me, but I went to these meetings and I was--I got to the point where I was very intimidated because it was like me sitting across the table from people who were my coworkers for a decade, you know?

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (16:24):
And I was like, I can't do this. I need another warm body next to me. And so I asked my husband can you come with me to this next meeting? It's really horrible. Like I had already cleared out my cubicle because they said it was for office morale. Like it didn't really make sense for me to be in the office. Like just, you know, so I'd come into the workplace just for acquisition meetings. And my husband was in the very first one that he came to me with for like maybe five minutes and he took the binder and he like slammed it, shut, shoved it across the table. And he says, what if we pay you cash in 90 days? What's the price then? And I'm sitting here thinking, 'Oh my God, we have no cash.' Like what are you talking about?

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (17:03):
And so , but it did get them to slash the price in half. I mean, it was still a six figure acquisition. It was still more expensive than our home, but it wasn't as much of a risk, you know? And so that was when we cashed out my 401k, we borrowed the cash from family. And off we went, but it was, I mean, my God, I opened our business checking account with a $4,999 check from USA Pears. It was a 12 month scope of work. I mean, five grand does not pay the bills for 12 months.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (17:38):
You brought the advertisers, the brands with you, and stood this up on your own. Well, congratulations, Lori, because you are the only person I know who has ever paid your employer severance.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (17:52):
I know. And I'm looking for...

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (17:53):
Person I've ever known to pay someone...

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (17:54):
I'm looking for the other

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (17:56):
...to fire you.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (17:56):
I know I'm looking for the other entrepreneur out there who also, you know, had to buy back their idea , you know, to start their business. It's not like we, you know, this is like to start my ownership journey. I had to buy my idea.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (18:12):
To buy back your own idea. Well, it's always easy to be the Monday morning quarterback, but it seems like you're glad that you did so today....

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (18:20):
Super glad I did. Yeah.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (18:21):
You were, today The Produce Moms is plural. So that it ties into your mission, right? This is not just about you as the mom, but about the moms that you serve. And, do I have this right? You were one of the first 10 in Indiana to become a B corporation.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (18:40):
Yeah. B Corp certified. We just...

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (18:42):
B Corp Certified. What's a B Corp? Tell our listeners just a little bit about what that means.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (18:44):
It's a global certification. It's rooted in the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals, and it's a rigorous third party certification that essentially validates this business as a force for good, you know, they, they have, they have processes in place that are rooted in empowering their workforce, empowering their community, protecting the environment and frankly, Nick, the values of B Corp were taught to me by the industry of agriculture. You know, every farmer that we're blessed to work with and for every supply chain stakeholder that we support at The Produce Moms, these are values that they brought to life and taught to me. And the more that I learned and as I studied other brands that I really admired--brands like Patagonia or Tillamook, or even in outside of agriculture you know, brands like Eileen Fisher has a great story about how she has changed the fashion industry to being more sustainable.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (19:50):
Those are all brands that I was like, that really moved my soul. And then I realized, wow, they all have B Corp certification. What does that even mean? And then I started look into it and I was like, wow, this is exactly what I'm looking for. Because far too often, people misunderstand The Produce Moms as like, oh, this is a blog. This is an influencer. And really we do a lot more than that. And so this certification was an opportunity for me to formalize everything that we do, identify our stakeholders, validate our claims. You know what I mean? It's like super easy for me as the founder of this company to be like, oh, we're so mission driven. And you know, we're doing great things for the world. Well, when you have one of the most rigorous third party certifications come in and actually validate it then it's, it's no longer just your passion that is saying that, you know, it is actually validated and I'm not only proud to be one of the first businesses in our home state to have this, but we actually, of all the folks, all of the businesses that are B Corp certified, we have the highest impact model score.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (20:57):
So we rank high in B Corp overall, and most definitely in the state of Indiana. We're the, we're the number one in impact. So, yeah.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (21:07):
Congratulations. That's really exciting.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (21:09):
Yeah. Thank you. It's you know, March is National B Corp Month. So we look forward to having some more robust announcements about that, but there are some amazing brands that are part of this movement, you know, there's for anyone who's outdoorsy. I know I already mentioned Patagonia, but Burton, the snowboard company is. Profession Folks. You've got like Toms and Bombas and Eileen Fisher, like I said. In the ag industry, there's quite a bit in dairy that are part of this. Danone, which is a huge company of, of food brands. All of their brands at Danone are B Corp certified. So for a while, Earthbound Farm, prior to Danone selling Earthbound Farm, Earthbound Farm was B Corp certified, but their new owners did not carry forward with that certification. So it's hard. I mean, you gotta maintain it. You know, and it took us, it's a ton of work. I mean, I did the application process and the certification process in January of 2021. And we certified in March of 2022.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (22:15):
Wow. Yeah. That's a long process.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (22:18):
It's a long process.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (22:20):
Wow. So you're making an impact. You're not not just a blog, not just an influencer, but you're using your blog and your podcast and your influence to make an impact in the world, getting fresh fruits and vegetables into the hands of children. Right? Moms can impact people. Now from our perspective, you know, I talk to farmers all the time and we're talking with smaller farmers who are selling on Market Wagon. You were talking, it sounds like with produce suppliers who are at a much larger scale than a lot of the ones that I have the opportunity to deal with. And I talk a lot about relationship, relationship, relationship. They have to have a relationship with their customers. But I'm--it sounds like, you know, the values that you talk about from food producers that you work with, relationships are still key, even in your business as well, right?

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (23:15):
Oh, 100%. Yeah. We, I mean, we have we have to be very particular about who we work with and the brands that we're gonna support, you know, they have to align with our values and you are right. I mean, we definitely work with the brands that you're gonna find at mass grocery retail. Yeah. And, you know, Nick, you have exposed how difficult it is for brands to get on shelf at grocery retail. So out of all the farms that we represent and support at The Produce Moms, I think the smallest one is 10,000 acres. So we're talking definitely big scale, you know.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (23:50):
But you mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, you were talking about transparency. People want to know about how they're raising even on 10,000 acres or on a hundred thousand acres, right. The customer at the grocery store wants to understand how the food was raised. How do you help food producers do that at that scale?

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (24:06): Yeah. Well, thanks for the question. It is, this is one of my greatest passions. You know, people have to know, I also have a burning curiosity to know more. And as my audience at The Produce Moms grows, I have a responsibility to make sure that I always, you know, have clarity on how things are grown and the types of--from how they're treating the human capital to the environment and everything, you know, the outputs, all of that. It's all very important. It's all part of it. So we, there's a lot of ways that we demonstrate that to folks. So I've probably personally been to over 200 farm visits in the last, you know, four years throughout north, central, and south America. So obviously there's...

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (24:54):
That sounds like fun.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (24:55):
Yeah. Like boots on the ground documentation. For sure. My most amazing experience was in Costa Rica with Del Monte. I went out there to support them with their 2019 sustainability initiative where they were actually formalizing their sustainability report and presenting it to the end-consumer for the first time ever. Prior to 2019, their sustainability report was something that was, you know, available as a PDF download for their shareholders. And it was never really promoted to the general population and their end-consumer. So that was probably the most tremendous experience I ever had. It also really opened my eyes up about the importance of better pricing models in the United States. You know, I mean, I, when I sat at the sales desk at, I can't tell you how many times we would sell bananas at 29 cents a pound on promo. And then I get out there to Costa Rica.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (25:49):
I'm like, oh my God, there is no reason anyone should ever be selling a banana in the United States for 29 cents a pound, you know? And so I started to see that trip changed my, that widened my lens even more where I started to see agriculture as as the industry that can have--we can break the cycles. If we do it right. I mean, so much of our food is grown, whether you're talking about rural America or, you know, the equator, you know, these tropical regions like Costa Rica. So much of our food is grown in very poor areas and it is, it is an opportunity for us, you know, I've learned through different industry involvements, whether it's the trip to Costa Rica, or I sit on the board representing the United States for Global Women Fresh, which is a, non-for-profit about female empowerment in ag. And I'm also on the board for the Equitable Food Initiative, which is about farm worker empowerment throughout the entire ag ecosystem. So these experiences combined helped me realize some critical facts. You know, if we wanna talk about something as important as, you know, female independence and, financial literacy throughout the world. Well, in most places in the world--where females are oppressed, the only job that they can actually get to earn that financial independence is within the agriculture industry.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (27:20):
And when I learned and things like that, you know, I I'm like we have to tell this to people. People have to understand the purpose of ag at a local, national, and even a global scale because we are, you know, and another thing that I'm really passionate about is, you know, like in the in the name of transparency I just found out frankly, through my B Corp journey meeting some other B Corp founders, I found out my eyes were opened wide about the chocolate industry. I did not know that the chocolate that I was buying in my home for years, people have been pushing on these big companies and it's every single one of them--every single company that's on, you know, for the most part, there's a few outliers that, you know, have tried to combat this, but they cannot guarantee that their supply chains are free of child slave labor.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (28:16):
And if you start Googling that and doing your own research, you will find the facts, but they've also, you know, these industries have done a pretty good job of, of concealing that, so I find the producers that are trying to make change yeah. In these, you know, I mean, that's a massive industry, massive global industry. And when you look at what's happening in Western Africa with boys, the same age as my children and the way that chocolate is available at scale, it's changed my point of view. And I'm like, okay, now at the, I know this, I have a responsibility with my platform to share it. And that's exactly what we did. I brought the founder of the company that taught me that I brought it on the show and we talked about it on the podcast. So I think that, I think that 95% of what we do in agriculture is best in class, but I'm never going to be someone who turns my head at the 5% where, you know, we gotta improve.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (29:10):
With your, with your platform, with the audience that you have, you have a great responsibility. And it sounds like you're taking that very seriously. Thank you. Thanks for helping to expose that kind of stuff.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (29:20):
Yeah. Thank you, Nick. Yeah. Thanks. It's an honor, you know.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (29:25):
So shift gears back to our home state, spring's coming up. So what as, as weather starts to warm up, what are you looking forward to the most of local seasonal, can only get it off of the soil here in Indiana, or the Midwest. What are you looking forward to the most of our local seasonal produce?

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (29:44):
Oh, my, that is a tough question. Okay. So I love and I know that it won't necessarily be a springtime crop, but out of all of the, all of the time I spent at the sales desk, I got the most excited about two items in particular: Indiana tomatoes and Indiana cantaloupes. Like I know we're talking more. Oh yeah. I'm convinced. I have told everyone we work with, and this really, this really upsets the people in California when I'm like, the Wabash River Valley has the best tasting cantaloupes in the world. So those are my two: like Indiana field grown tomatoes, because I think even like, as we see the, the surge of indoor vertical farming and greenhouse growing, especially for vine vegetables and, and leafy greens you know, tomatoes are one of those items where a really good field grown tomato is becoming a rare find at grocery retail and...

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (30:43):
Distinctly different flavor than indoor grown or, or truck ripened. Yeah.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (30:47):
Totally. Totally. So those are my two absolute favorite things. Now, when we talk about specifically the springtime items, you know, things that I love to get in my Market Wagon delivery, frankly include like, you know, the really unique, like I love, I love all the radishes. I love like the patty pan squashes. I love the, you know, the, the fancy kales, like I, those are, I love those things. And I'm a huge believer and anyone who's had, you know, who's been able to come over and enjoy a meal with me at my home kitchen. I am--my approach to food is very simple. Find the best, most beautiful and most delicious ingredients possible and keep it simple, you know, let those ingredients shine. And so when I have the opportunity to buy something like, you know, a romanesco versus white cauliflower, I'm all in, like, I will pay the extra dollar or whatever to do that. And that is how, you know, and I can't tell you how many people have complimented, you know, meals that I've served here in my home kitchen by saying, that's the best meal I've ever had. And I'm like, and you would be amazed at how simple it is too. Like you just have to seek out fresh quality ingredients and let them shine because they will.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (32:03):
Great. Well, if people wanna learn more about that, and we've talked over and over and over again about your blog, your podcast on your website and the education that you do and the cause that you do, how can people find The Produce Moms led by Lori Taylor? How can people find you online?

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (32:18):
Well, if we aren't easy to find, then I'm not doing my job. So , you should be, we are on every social media platform. And that is why I have gray hair, because you can never keep up with that. But I--so any social platform that you are on, we are there. Our social media handle is The Produce Moms. You know, of course come to our home base. That is TheProduceMoms.com. We do have, you know, you're, you're connecting with us today through podcast. I mean, your favorite podcast platform, we're there as well. Our show is The Produce Moms Podcast. And then, you know, we have, we have email newsletters. If you're local to central Indiana and maybe soon other markets I'm on the morning show, it's called Lifestyle Live. So you can catch me on air and, you know, we'd, we'd love to connect with you in any way. And if you would like to reach out to me directly, TheProduceMoms.com, we have a contact form on our website and that contact form comes directly to my inbox. So don't be shy about reaching out if there's anything that I can do for you or anything, any request that you might have as it relates to what The Produce Moms can do for you.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (33:28):
That's great. My guest today has been Lori Taylor of The Produce Moms and check her out online, follow her podcast. And thanks so much for joining me today, Lori.

Lori Taylor (The Produce Moms) (33:38):
Nick, thank you. Keep up the great work. I'm a huge fan and there's nothing like my Tuesday delivery from Market Wagon. So thanks for all that you do. And thanks for starting this show to spotlight all the amazing growers and artisans that are part of the Market Wagon movement.

Nick Carter (Host - Market Wagon) (33:56):
Thanks, Lori. Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than A Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market Wagon at MarketWagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More Than A Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, CastBox, PodChaser or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. Thank you for continuing to support local food

The guest for Episode 9 of More Than A Mile is Zach Blankenship of Z.N. Blankenship Concessions. 

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (00:00):

Today, I'm joined on the podcast by Zach Blankenship. Zach is following up last week's episode with his father, Chris, where he talked with us about Bluebird Meadows Farm. And today on More Than A Mile, I'm talking with Zach, he's a young entrepreneur in the farming and food industry. Right out of college he worked in the corporate world for a couple years, but based on the success of his family's farm, he was able to join on full-time and get back to the land. And he felt the pull of his ag degree. And it merged with his creativity and desire to provide local food. He created a side business. He intends to springboard the family farm into even greener pastures. Enjoy Zach's twisted pretzel story coming up, learn about his brother Lucas's new product offering and how the Blankenships have made Market Wagon a family affair.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (00:45):

Welcome to More Than A Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmer's market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. And I look forward to crafting a generational quilt of farmer stories and experiences, the victories and challenges of individuals, families, and teams doing their part to help democratize food in America. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than A Mile, and thank you for buying local food. It's one critical step in making an investment in food for future generations.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (01:36):

All right. My guest today is Zach Blankenship. And if that name sounds familiar it's because my guest last week was his dad, Chris Blankenship. And now we are joined by entrepreneur number two in the family, I guess. Is that accurate to say Zach?

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (01:50):

Yeah, I would say so. Yeah.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (01:52):

Well, thanks for joining me today, Zach. I love talking about local food with local food producers. Let's just get started with the simple question. How did you start Z.N. Blankenship Concessions? How did you get started with this?

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (02:02):

I kind of--so I, my father's farm, mom and dad's farm Bluebird Meadows--last week's interview-- I grew up going to farmer's markets and everything, we're going on about 20 years now. So I kind of grew up around the local food movement, you know, seeing all the artisan bakers and the donut man, you know, bringing everything to Saturday morning markets. And so as I kind of was going through high school and working the farmer's markets and stuff, I kind of had headed aside, you know, what, what the future held. So I always loved farming, always loved the local food movement. Always, obviously, Bluebird Meadows has a special place in my heart. So I ended up going to Wilmington College, shout out, down there in Wilmington, Ohio. Close to the Indiana line down there. So I ended up getting my degree in agricultural business.

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (02:55):

And so, I graduated in 2018. Next two years, I worked for an insurance group. I was doing agribusiness underwriting. And then, so how this kind of comes full circle. Bluebird Meadows started with Market Wagon and it hit the road running. I mean, it was, it was great. So, very quickly, those the, you know, year three at the insurance company, I had the opportunity to go back to the farm. So took that. And that's kind of how, how I got started with the pretzels. We went down to Alabama to pick up a old Coke trailer, you know, something cheap that we found down there that we could fix up. And that was my vision. My vision was to, you know, do fairs, festivals, concerts, all that kind of stuff on the side, when I wasn't at the farm. You know, doing the soft pretzels, we were gonna do pretzels, dips, and a couple different other items. And like we were talking about earlier, then COVID struck, we had one event under our belts. And then my dad was like, 'Hey, listen, maybe consider putting the pretzels on Market Wagon, see if that's an option for you.' So shot the email over, you know, I think, shoot, probably two, three days later, I think we had the products on there and, we're really rolling with that too. So yeah, the farms, my nine to five [job] and pretzels are my five to question mark. We roll them fresh every Monday, Wednesday.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (04:21):

Wow. So the opportunity, the growth that took place on Bluebird Meadows farm, which brought you back to the family farm as an employee, or, you know, part of that enterprise gave you the flexibility and the opportunity to then go grow your side gig, which is like you said, five to question mark, the pretzel business,

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (04:38):

Right? Absolutely. Yeah.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (04:40):

Wow. That's really cool. That's kind of why we're here, right? Enabling food producers to thrive--this is a great story. So did you ever get to roll that trailer into any events--any of them before the world changed and large gatherings of people didn't--did no longer happen anymore? 2020?

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (05:02):

Yeah. Yeah. We went to a small little--it was like a community festival of sorts. Did one of them. Did decent, obviously with anything there's a little bit of learning that goes along. When you're trying to feed the masses, but yeah, yeah. That, that went well. And like we talked, you know, COVID hit and you know, overcome and adapt, I guess, is the, the motto here.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (05:24):

That's exactly right. So these pretzels are now available on MarketWagon.com and you said you make them fresh the day that they're ready to be delivered. Now you got this renovated Pepsi trailer or Coke trailer, which was it, Coke? They're all the same in my mind. Well, so you got this renovated trailer. Are you still frying your pretzels there, on wheels, even though you're not going anywhere or did you get a stationary kitchen?

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (05:55):

Yep. We got a kitchen now. We moved into a kitchen and rolling them there. Funny story about that concession trailer though, we kind of re-outfitted it and it's now used as a barbecue trailer at the farm. We're slinging fresh brisket, barbecue, you know, pork shoulder, all that good stuff on the weekends at Bluebird Meadows. Yeah.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (06:16):

Oh, that sounds delicious. Awesome. So you were able to put it to use no, nonetheless.

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (06:21):

Yeah. Yep. Thankfully,

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (06:23):

So growing up on a family farm, what are some of the biggest lessons that you learned?

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (06:28):

Oh, man, I, you know, this is a question that's kinda--as the farming population, I guess, dwindles there's less and less farmers out there, you know? So you come in contact, whether it's at a farmer's market or wherever you may be, people ask, you know, what's it like? You know, what do you? It's a good question. I don't even know if you could, could summarize all the things that you kinda learn and just how you grow-- lessons learned on the farm and all that good stuff. I'm the oldest of four, so it's myself, my younger brother, and I have two younger sisters. I guess the biggest lesson would be more hands is less work, you know? My mom and dad, and then us four are very, very involved. Still are for the most part. Everybody is, my sisters are away at college, but when they come back, they're helping, they're packing for Market Wagon, delivering all the good stuff.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (07:18):

It's a family enterprise,

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (07:20):

It's family enterprise. Yeah. And, and I guess, I guess the biggest lesson, because how, how all the, whether it be the, the pretzel business or the farm itself is bet on yourself. You know, I think that's the, the biggest lesson. And if you work hard and you believe in it, I think there's always avenues for success.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (07:39):

That's great. I'm not sure how old you are. I remember getting the story from your dad on the family farm, but do you remember moving to the family farm?

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (07:49):

I do. Yeah. So we used to live probably 10-ish minutes away from where we are now. Yeah. And when we built this house, it was, I don't remember the exact year, but I was six or seven, probably.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (08:01):

So you weren't born a farmer, you became a farmer at the young age of six or seven. Do you remember that transition? What that was like?

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (08:10):

I do. Well, I think every little kid has their thing that they're into, you know, whether it be a firefighter or police officer or whatever, I always wanted to be a, a construction guy or a farmer. So,

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (08:20):

All right.

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (08:21):

Finally dreams come true,

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (08:23):

Living the dream, right. Seven years old, your dad's like, I could do that. I can make you a farmer right now.

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (08:28):

We need, need help. Yeah.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (08:30):

That's really cool. Now this, this little food entrepreneurship bug seems to be passing its way through the entire family. I heard that your brother Lucas now has a trail mix business on Market Wagon.

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (08:42):

Yeah. Yeah. He's he's the adventurer of the group. He went to school for outdoor recreation, kinda leads, hikes and guides, hikes and rock climbing tours and all that kind of good stuff.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (08:53):

Ah, so hence the trail mix then?

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (08:55):

Right, right. He's down in the Athens area. And he had this idea. It's funny, you know, we all have ideas and kind of bring them to the table when we all get together for dinner, but he's like, 'man, what you think about the, the trail mix?' And I was like, I mean, it's a good idea. You know, the active groups out there kind of enjoy--he's gonna go like the organic kind you know, locally sourced route. So--Which has always been important to us.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (09:24):

Okay. So Bluebird Meadows seems to be growing more than just grass fed beef, pork, and poultry. It seems like you're growing businesses. We've got at least three businesses that have started on these acres. We've got the original farm business, then your pretzel business and then your brother's trail mix business. Should we expect to see more businesses incubating on the farm?

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (09:44):

Yeah. I, the ultimate goal for us is to open a local butchery [and] smokehouse as well. So to use those funds that we're getting from the side businesses to eventually open up that processing facility, you know, open doors for more local farmers to bring their meat to us. We'll process it, smoke it for them and then we'll do the same with our stuff as well. So we kinda integrate everything. We'll raise it, we'll process it, we'll pack it. And then we have our outlets to sell it as well.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (10:16):

Wow. That's really cool. Vertical integration is what they call it in the business world. So you're gonna be able to add more and more value to the products that you're already growing there on the farm.

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (10:25):

Yeah, absolutely. And that'll let us do, you know, if we wanna do different smoked flavors, if we want to do different varieties of X, Y, and Z, we'll be able to test that here. And then if it's up to our quality, then we'll be able to do that for us and for others as well.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (10:41):

Where did you learn to smoke meat?

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (10:43):

We do a lot of barbecuing, so we'll smoke, shoulders, briskets, chicken, all that good stuff. And that's kind of been a passion project of mine on the side, I guess you'd say. So smoking pork bellies, trying to do our own bacon, ham, stuff like that. Just on the side, nothing of, on the commercial scale yet. That's hopefully what the future holds for us.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (11:05):

Great. Yeah. Well, I guess if you're raising great meat and then you gotta learn how to cook it in the best way possible. So definitely it sounds like you're mastering that. That's neat. Now getting back to pretzels. So you had said that you had this inspiration for, you know, you've been to the festivals, you you've been going along, tagging along since you were six years old with dad at the farmer's markets, you see all these folks there making artisan food, selling it. Smells good, tastes good. But specifically pretzels. So tell me a little bit more, I mean, it's not as though somebody says, 'I wanna outfit a trailer to go to festivals and sell food,' you know, I might first think of elephant ears or lemon shakeups. How did you get to pretzels?

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (11:43):

Yeah, well, I've always, I guess, growing up with the farm, you know, take more of a niche route in a way. And I love, you know, the county fairs going around to those and, you know, you get your french fries, the fresh squeezed lemonade, whatever it may be. But, you know, walking around thinking to myself, you know, what else is out there? What would people like? I go to a lot of sporting events [and I] always get the soft pretzel with cheese. Why don't I give this a try? So that's kinda what birthed it there.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (12:13):

Okay. So sporting events--inspiration for your pretzels. Can you remember--we talked about your farm memories. Can you remember the first pretzel that you had, that you were like, 'this is why I associate pretzels and sports.'

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (12:28):

Yeah, absolutely. I grew up playing football, basketball, baseball, and the same with my siblings. And so we were at sporting events all weekend, every weekend. It seemed like if we weren't at a farmer's market we were at some kind of event. PeeWee football. I was probably seven or eight--in between games I got myself an original pretzel, salted pretzel with a little bit of cheese. And I think that was it for me. That's when I was sold. That was my favorite go to concession stand snack.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (12:55):

Simple salted pretzel cheese dip. And, and the rest is history. Now we've got Zach's famous twisted pretzels.

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (13:04):

Yeah. Yep.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (13:04):

Is there anything secret or special about your your recipe?

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (13:09):

Yeah. Well, we use honey--no sugar. So you get a little bit of honey flavors, which is nice. Other than that, I mean, they're not mass produced. They're hand rolled every Monday and Wednesday.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (13:21):

Hand rolled. Are they fried or baked?

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (13:24):

Baked.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (13:25):

Baked? All right. So you've got a baked soft pretzel, hand rolled, no artificial sugar.

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (13:31):

Right. Just the good stuff.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (13:35):

Okay. What's next for Z.N. Blankenship Concessions. What's next? Is it gonna be more pretzels or are you going to be expanding the menu or what's next?

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (13:43):

Expanding the menu. I guess, no better time than now. I think we're gonna drop some bagels here soon. Yeah, we're gonna do some hand rolled bagels. So knocking out the final steps of making sure everything's good to go in terms of packaging and whatnot. Got the recipe down, but I think that's what's next. We're gonna put those on Market Wagon as well.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (14:04):

Oh, that makes me hungry. I mean, there is, you can pick up a bag of bagels at the grocery store and they're nothing like fresh made bagels. That's...

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (14:14):

I've done the test trials and they're definitely different. Yeah.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (14:18):

Oh yeah, that sounds so good. Great. So this has been fun learning about your business and seeing how it's been able to be incubated on on your family farm and kind of grow out of the family farm. It's a great story. Thanks for taking the time with us. I want to just leave it open there. Anything else that you want customers to know about your business or you know, why you started it or where you're going?

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (14:44):

Aside from keeping an eye out for those bagels you know, I just--as we move along I guess maybe you would say into the 21st century with technology and everything, we're kind of moving from the in-person farmers markets to the Market Wagon of the world, you know? And so we always appreciate the feedback, the ratings, which is a great feature there on the site, like any business it's not possible without the customers. So, we appreciate it all.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (15:11):

You've been able to keep up relationships with customers, even in the digital world, the online farmer's market.

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (15:16):

Yeah. You know, I thought it would be a little more difficult than it is, but it's nice to know that, you know, send the messages and be able to contact each other that way. It, it is both ways too. So customer to us and us to the customer. It's great.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (15:32):

Awesome. Well, in addition to just finding Z.N. Blankenship Concessions on MarketWagon.com, where else can people find you, if they're interested in maybe following your trailer around? Finding you at events when that starts to happen again, how else can people get in touch?

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (15:46):

Yeah, yeah. We are at the farm store here at Bluebird Meadows. I bake all the bagels and pretzels fresh there. For now I think that's about our cap.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (15:56):

Okay.

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (15:57):

So, so I mean, mark wagon it's been really good to us, so I think we're gonna stick there for a while.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (16:03):

Well, glad to hear that.

Zach Blankenship (Z.N. Blankenship Concessions) (16:05):

Yeah. Yeah.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (16:11):

Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than A Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market Wagon at MarketWagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More Than A Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, CastBox, PodChaser, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. Thank you for continuing to support local food.

 

On this episode of More Than A Mile, I'm excited to have Chris Blankenship of Bluebird Meadows Farm join me. Bluebird Meadows Farm is located in Northeast Ohio, and their passion is offering delicious premium local food directly to consumers, using sustainable farming practices to raise the livestock naturally. And he's gonna tell us all about how that works. We will hear how Chris went from the military to factory worker before farming and his enterprising son's foray into selling on Market Wagon too. As well as how they're giving back to the community through a very impactful nonprofit in Ohio. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (00:36):

Welcome to More Than A Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer, and the CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmer's market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. And I look forward to crafting a generational quilt of farmer stories and experiences, the victories and challenges of individuals, families, and teams doing their part to help democratize food in America. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than A Mile, and thank you for buying local food. It's one critical step in making an investment in food for future generations.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (01:26):

All right. Well, my guest today is Chris Blankenship of Bluebird Meadows Farm. And I had the pleasure actually just about three weeks ago I traveled to our Northeast Ohio, Cleveland area hub and was visiting with some of the farmers and artisans over there at the Market Wagon fulfillment center. There I got to meet Chris face-to-face, heard a lot about your farm from before then. And we had a good conversation about lamb and grazing and farming practices. And now you get to be my guest here and we can share that conversation and more with our listeners. So, Chris why don't you introduce yourself and just tell us a little bit about your farm, Bluebird Meadows.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (02:03):

A pleasure to be with you this morning, Nick, and thanks for having me. I'm Chris Blankenship, Bluebird Meadows Farm. My wife, Julie, we have four children. It's been a long journey for us getting into farming. I, I grew up on a small farm. We raised some pigs, so I was familiar with that. But I went into the Marine Corps, came out, got a factory job. My wife is a teacher. We thought, okay, things are going great. We'll just live our lives. But as we all know, life happens and I lost that factory job. So I had the opportunity to go back to school and get my bachelor's in teaching. But while I was doing that, I needed some income because we were used to two incomes and we were down to one all of a sudden.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (03:01):

That's a big change.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (03:02):

Yeah. Yeah. So Julie's dad had been raising some flowers, fresh-cut flowers, and he was selling them at farmer's markets on the weekend, and he was making a little bit of money, but we thought, hey, anything helps. So we thought, okay, we could do that. Cause he's already got it started. And so we did it at some other farmer's markets, raised some vegetables, things of that nature, and soon realized that, geez, there's a lot of work that goes into that.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (03:36):

Wait, you mean, you mean farming's is not easy?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (03:39):

Yeah. So with the background I had in the small pig farm that I grew up on, and we had some land—and we were raising animals for ourselves anyway, just, you know, for our consumption, through meeting people at the farmer's market and seeing what was there and not, we were like, Hey, maybe a big idea to have some sausage and bratwurst. So we got about four head of pigs and this was about 18-20 years ago.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (04:10):

Okay.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (04:12):

We just started from there and I thought, okay, so four head, eh, if we don't sell 'em, I told Julie, that's my wife. I said if we don't sell them you know, we can use them, give 'em to family, or friends or something. But we soon found out that four head was nowhere near enough. And those were sold in about a month. So we just kind of grew from there. And then with that, we had some health issues with one of our children, Lucas. He's our youngest son. And he was diagnosed with EE, which is eosinophilic esophagitis which really, in a nutshell, it's his body detects allergens and his eosinophils just overreact—It causes choking, many different diagnosis for that. But the bottom line is that he had to have a clean source of food. No longer could we go to the grocery store and just pick something up off the shelf, knowing that it's full of antibiotics, full of hormones, whatever they put in there to preserve that, to give him the longer shelf life. So we were forced to kinda go that route with his diagnosis as well. And then from there, from there, Nick, we've just, we've been blessed. It's grown and here we are today—we do five farmer's markets, seven Market Wagon locations and still growing. So we're glad.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (05:52):

Wow. We are so glad to have you with us. That's quite a journey from military to factory to farm. So you're, you are I guess I was gonna say first generation farmer, but you learned a little farming from, you know, your folks you grew up, you said with some hogs now, today you raised more than just hogs. Right? You've got what, tell me what all commodities you've got on the farm today?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (06:18):

All right. So what we do we have grass-fed beef. Of course we try to, swine-wise, we do everything farrow to finish. Occasionally we have to purchase some feeders to help out if things get short. We started tinkering with lamb a few years ago. Learning a lot about lamb.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (06:42):

That's what you and I were talking about a few weeks ago. It was integrating lamb with the rotation of the beef.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (06:49):

Because I'm new to the lamb part of this I never really thought about, you know, as you were explaining to me—have them rotate behind the beef and the pastures and that's, and we'll certainly implement that this year.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (07:02):

Give it a try. They seem to crop a little lower and they like to go after things that the beef don't, but I gotta warn you so far for me, that's, that's entirely theoretical news because we we're grazing goats right now. The land that my wife and I bought is, well, I was completely taken over by thorn bushes and invasive species, and the goats are currently eradicating those, but that's gonna take several years. So we'll be switching to lamb in the next couple of years, but I haven't raised lamb myself, grew up raising beef and hogs as well. But yeah, I'm interested to see, I've seen a couple of other farms integrate the lamb really well into the rotation and interested to see if that works well for you. But I'm curious to learn more how, because in my farming head you've got, you know, from hogs are not quite as land intensive, acreage intensive, as grass fed beef. So can you share a little bit, I mean, if you went from four hogs to supplying several of our delivery locations and five farm markets with grass fed beef, was there, was there generational land available to you? Were you able, did you have family farming in your background that you were able to start to take over?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (08:10):

Yeah, we bought some land here. We always wanted to live in the country. That's where we grew up and we just like the rural setting. So we were fortunate—we were able to buy some land and we slowly started, once we realized, you know, that this was the route we wanted to go with the farmer's markets and adding more livestock and such that we slowly started adding pastures. And we just built from there.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (08:41):

Now, when you're, when you say adding pastures, were those existing pastures that then became yours or were they crop land that you went in and planted permaculture over?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (08:50):

Yeah. So this was all—the land we purchased was all crop land.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (08:57):

Corn and soy.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (08:58):

Corn and soy. Yeah. All the sprays and all the crap that they add to it to get it, to do all that. So we've been here about 20 years now and there's not been a single spray pesticide, herbicide, fungicide, anything added, but yeah, so we just slowly started developing those pastures with cover crops. Clover, you know, orchard grass, and for the hogs we do a pasture rotation with the hogs actually, and we do it in different stages of their growth. So, Through, from birth through about eight weeks, we leave 'em on our sow [pasture] for eight weeks. We don't rush 'em off. We want 'em to get that full nutrition from the mother.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (09:55):

You've got a dedicated sow pasture or a farrowing pen?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (09:59):

Yeah. And so after that eight weeks we ween 'em off. And I can tell you a story, Nick, when we first started doing this, I, you know, I, I soon realized I didn't need a vet except for in emergencies, but I'd had the vet come out and he would often try to get me to give them their iron shots and these different shots. And I was like, eh, I, I don't think I need to do that. And because, you know, by rooting and being out on pastures, they get all those minerals and that iron it's naturally in the soil. You don't need to give them those injections. They get that naturally.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (10:47):

Well, I grew up, I would've been the fourth generation on the farm where I grew up. And my dad had converted our dairy milking stanchions, that my grandfather had built, into a farrowing house, 12 crate farrowing house. We, we were, I didn't know it at the time. I didn't know any of these words. I was just a kid, but we were a CAFO. We had confined animal feeding. We had the hogs and doors and we farrowed in crates. And for our listeners who are not farmers like Chris and I, farrowing is just the term for when a hog gives birth to her litter. And that's farrowing. And that was about every eight week process for us was my brother and I'd go out and we'd pull all the litters out. And we had two shots we'd give 'em right underneath their hind legs, iron being one of them. And, but those hogs never saw dirt in their lives, except if we didn't clean out the pens fast enough. So you're right. They weren't getting any of those natural supplements.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (11:41):

Yeah. So, so from the waning, you know, the eight weeks we, we move 'em into a, you know, our first pasture. And that just is basically a Clover, alfalfa, orchard grass mix. And they love that. They love that. So they'll stay in there up to about 75-90 pounds somewhere in that range. Then we move 'em to our next pasture. And in there, we like to plant sweet beets with a cover crop.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (12:16):

So they've gotta go digging for those.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (12:18):

They've gotta dig it. So what that does that accomplishes multiple things. They're utilizing the whole crop cause they eat the root and the top and they're also tilling the land. And so I just simply, once we move 'em, you know, once they eat that pasture down and we move 'em to the next one, I just go through with the disc. So it's a minimal carbon footprint, right. I'm not plowing it. I'm not doing all this—the pigs have already plowed it. I'm just smoothing it over a little bit and re-seeding it.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (12:51):

With sweet beets.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (12:52):

With sweet beets and a cover crop. Yeah.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (12:55):

Do they? So on our farm, one of the problems we have is they'll, they'll find a waller and they will compact that soil real, real bad. Does your rotation keep them from being able to be on the same spot long enough to make that compaction in a hog waller?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (13:12):

For the most part. I'm not going to say one hundred percent. There's times where they'll get that rooted out good. And we'll need to kinda get the loader and get that top soil back in there and kinda level it off a little bit.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (13:27):

Mainly we, this whole conversation now has devolved into me just getting farming tips from Chris. So the rest of you are just incidental to this conversation as you're listening in. Well, one of the things we talk about Chris, and I love talking about your rotations and I wanna frame it as we continue to talk about it is for our listeners, farmers are your mediator of your relationship to the land. If you're buying food from somebody else who grew it for you yeah. They're your food supplier, but they're mediating your relationship with the earth. And, and what you're listening to here is how Chris stewards the earth as a mediator for you, because that's ultimately what feeds us all is the soil that we, that we sustains us that brings us our food. And so we're talking about here with Chris is rotational grazing, and we'll continue to talk about your hogs. I'm also curious to learn some of the other things that you do to be sustainable on your farm, how you you've managed to not use any sprays or chemicals to sustain this pasture for 20 years. So just keep, sorry to interrupt you, but keep, keep letting us know how you're, you're doing this because I think it's fascinating and our listeners need to learn about it. What comes after sweet beets, Chris?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (14:37):

Okay. So after the sweet beets at that point, they are roughly about 175 to 200 pounds. I'm just eyeballing these animals when I do this.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (14:52):

Yeah. We get pretty good at weighing an animal with our eyes. Don't we?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (14:55):

Yeah. After you've seen enough of, 'em gone through this, they're roughly a hundred seventy five, two hundred pounds. And then we move 'em to our finished pasture, which goes back to the alfalfa. Cause we wanna keep the protein in 'em to finish off the alfalfa, the Clover and the orchard grass.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (15:13):

Yeah.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (15:15):

And they'll finish off in that pasture. We like to finish em off a pasture. I think if you can get that thing up to about 280 pounds, you you're doing really good. You know, the factory farms, they like to get these hogs to 240, 250, 260 in there. And on the pasture they need to get that weight up. They need to get that weight up because there's so much leaner—that muscle is being used, it's not standing in a barn.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (15:44):

Well, I'll share a little bit more about the economies of it. The when I was a kid, it was 220 lean hogs. Will anybody want it? And the reason is because those last few pounds to add are expensive from, from a standpoint of feed, you know, just think about how we grow, you know, by the time you're, you're 18, you're about full size. You may fill out a little bit more, but the amount of food you gotta take from the age of 18 to whenever you hit your, you know, adult weight, there's a lot of food versus what it took you to get to your, your mostly big size. And so from profitability standpoint, we started finishing off hogs really early on. We started these campaigns in the eighties called the other white meat. Well, pork shouldn't be white. And the best part of pork is the fat that's where a lot of the flavor comes from. But it's costly to make that fat with the feed rations that are used in confined animal feeding operations. So we basically trained Americans to eat lean pork. Pork chops that are dry. You gotta be, you gotta work hard to make sure they don't come out like shoe leather, cuz they never let 'em finish up that last piece, which you're talking about, which is that finish the marbeling. And I think that makes for a delicious hog. It's a high quality, high quality meat.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (16:53):

Yes, absolutely. Nick, we're so excited. We started tinkering around with some fodder last year.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (17:02):

Okay. Tell, tell us what fodder is.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (17:04):

So my definition of fodder is we use an organic seed. We want to get that higher in protein, something like barley. And basically just to summarize it real quick, you soak that seed. You, you stick it in a plastic tray. You want to have ambient light and average temperature of about 65 degrees. And within seven days you're going to have, so I'm not any chemicals to make this seed sprout and grow. I'm not even using soil. It, it just grows in this plastic tray, so to speak. And in seven days, you know, you, you water it each day. And in seven days it will have sprouted about five to seven inches. And I've gotta tell you, the pigs love it. They, they will eat that over anything. I did some experiments, you know, I'll put our non GMO feed in a dish and I'll roll that fodder up and put it in a dish beside of it. Every time without doubt, they go to the fodder, they don't even mess with the feed. And so that's talking about sustainability is something that we are really going to ramp up this year. We want our goal is to be able to finish our hogs off on fodder without the use of any grains.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (18:45):

So the grains that you would've fed 'em because you've talked about pastures, but hogs do need something beyond the pasture. And for most farmers that means grain whether that's some corn or soy or a mixture of 'em you're using barley, it sounds like, but instead of just letting them eat the grain by itself, let that grain sprout. And then the grain's own natural process is gonna convert the sugars it has in the seed to a tiny little plant called a cotalie. And so that it's same amount of energy going into the hog, but they like it better.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (19:18):

And there's no waste. They eat the roots, they eat the top.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (19:22):

Yeah.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (19:23):

And it's better for their digestive system rather than trying to digest, you know, those grains. It's more of a natural, sustainable way of raising livestock.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (19:35):

That is fascinating. And the barley that you're getting where do you source that from? Is that difficult to find, or are you growing it on your own?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (19:44):

No, we, we source it from our local feed mill. It's an organic barley, maybe in time as we expand this fodder operation, we might need to do that on our own. But, but right now we get it from our local feed mill and I've just been amazed at how the, you know, how the hogs just enjoy it. Now, our challenge is gonna be getting that right protein mix to get them finished off, to get that nice layer of fat at the end.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (20:11):

That's really neat. Well, so that's your hog operation sounds like you've, you've really, I mean, fine tuned this rotation with the hogs now, what, how's that different from what you do with your your ruminate animals, which are your cattle and sheep that digest just the celluloses from grass far differently than the way a hog does. Those are they're on different pastures. They're not rotating in with the hogs. Okay. And, and these are pastures that you've reclaimed from crop ground. So they used to be corn and soy. Now they're back into a permaculture and what's the process look like with that?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (20:49):

So what we do with our beef is, let's see, we have six, six pastures, and we rotate those. And depending on the type of, or not the type, the time of year, it is, you know, when the pastures are going great in the spring and early summer, you know, they can stay on those pastures a little bit longer. And of course, when it gets to the drier months, they have a shorter time they're able to stay on that pasture, cuz you don't want them to eat that grass down so low cause it's harder for the grass to recover or the Clover or whatever you have in your pastures. It's harder for that to recover if they're eating it down to the ground. So we like to, once it gets down about three inches, four inches, we get the cows off of it and move 'em to the next pasture.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (21:44):

That'll also prevent parasites by the way, especially in your lambs.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (21:48):

Exactly. And we follow our chickens. We have some laying hens and they follow the cows in the pastures because you know, they help to scratch and break up those manure piles that they leave.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (22:06):

Yeah. Cow pies.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (22:08):

Yeah. Yeah. The cow pies. But in terms of the beef, they're, they're an all grass diet. We don't put up our own hay, but we source our hay from a guy just around the corner who doesn't spray his fields. Matter of fact, he owns an organic dairy farm and he has hay.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (22:29):

I was gonna ask you cuz you no secret you're in the Northern states here. So that grass isn't growing, like for example, right now, as we're recording this on February 18th, so you've got hay, but it's coming from a nearby farm.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (22:43):

Right? Who follows the same, you know, who believes the same way we do in terms of not using the pesticides or fungicides on his fields for that hay. And so the cows are eating that, you know, when the pastures aren't growing.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (22:57):

Now one thing I know is, and many of our listeners might realize grass takes a lot of nitrogen. If you've had a, if you'd like to have a good flush lawn in your front yard, you're buying nitrogen at the hardware store every year, you're paying somebody to treat it. How do you in 20 years you haven't sprayed your fields. How do you keep enough nitrogen in the soil for those pastures to keep producing lush grass, to produce the beef that you're getting off of your farm.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (23:22):

So we raise broilers. Which are meat, burns, chickens. They're different than the hens. And these boilers, even though they're on, we like to have them on pasture as well. Everything is a pasture based system, but when it's colder weather, I mean, the reality is they're not out on the pasture very much.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (23:45):

Yeah.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (23:47):

So that manure, that chicken manure, which is rich in nitrogen tends to build up and we use that and it gets spread on the fields.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (23:59):

And so you are producing enough nitrogen inside the ecosystem right there on your farm to keep the fields nourished.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (24:08):

Yes. There, we do need to reseed about every three, four years. But it's doing an adequate job.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (24:15):

Wow. That's really neat. I appreciate you. You walking us through the, the whole system like that. Why is this matter so much to you, Chris? I mean, you are, it should be no secret. The way that you're doing things is not the easy way. I mean there's this pellet, you can go by called urea and it's just pelletized nitrogen, and you can go spread that on the field. It's way easier than raising one bird over here in order to get this off this byproduct that then you can transport. Why is all this matter so much to you?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (24:49):

Well, we just believe when I say we am talking about my wife and I, that it's our responsibility to preserve and to make this land, that we have to be able to pass it on to future generations. And so they can farm on it and have a healthy land. I guess we just want to extend that, you know, it's our job to take care of this land that we have. We can't destroy it because it can't be replaced. So we want to just take care of that and pass it on to future to generations.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (25:28):

That's what it's about. And you've got you said four kids growing up in there on the farm. Yeah. And we're gonna be talking with one of your sons next week, Zach. So the little, little teaser. Zach Blankenship and his food business that he's been able to, to start. I don't think it's a stretch for me to say from the inspiration of his dad and what he's seen take place in the family farm there. Now, how important is it to you? I mean, what does it mean to you to see your kids now becoming adults and entering into food businesses?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (25:59):

Yeah, it's so exciting. I mean, as a father, you know, when you're growing up and your kids are working with you sometimes you're like, I know they don't wanna be out here, but they're doing it anyway. But as they become their own people and adults move on in their life, it's nice to see them wanna take ownership and be part of what, you know, we've been doing our whole lives pretty much. And Zach is, he's all in. He is all in. He loves it and that's just so exciting and rewarding to see. I mean, it, it just is. And he has an entrepreneurial mind. He went to school and he got his four year degree in ag business. And I don't wanna take too much of his thunder, but he went from a desk job to, to now he's a full-time employee here on the farm and has some of his side businesses going, I'll let him talk more about those.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (27:00):

That's exciting. I look forward to that conversation that we're gonna have in our next episode with Zach but back to Bluebird Meadows Farm, and Chris, this has been a fun discussion. Thanks for sharing a little bit more of the detail of how you steward the land and and how you're raising it sustainably. Now, how do people, other than you being invited as a podcast guest and spend a half an hour explaining it, how does, how do your customers know about this? I mean, do you, is there a label on the product that says that you rotated your pastures or how are you able to get this message out to customers?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (27:37):

So we use a couple different methods. Of course, we have our website, BluebirdMeadowsFarms.com. Folks can go on there. And, you know, we have our story, how we got started, you know, type of practices we use and things of that nature. So they can do that. We like to communicate through social media, Facebook, Instagram, which we've been able to develop some relationships with our Market Wagon customers through Facebook and Instagram. That's been great. And also just, well, a couple other ways, you know, our in-person farmers markets, you know, folks are curious, they wanna know how things operate on the farm and you have those face to face conversations. And then before we went through this COVID pandemic, we like to have once a year, we would have like a hog roast or just a way of saying, thank you. And we'd have folks out. And they could see for themselves what we're doing and, you know, take a look around and that type of stuff.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (28:38):

So it's all about relationships. You're building relationships through social media, you're building relationships at your farmers' markets. I love to hear that you're are building relationships on MarketWagon.com. You've got customers that are following you and understanding what your practices are. Thanks for taking the time to build relationships with the people that are buying the food. It's more than just a transaction, isn't it? It's a relationship you have with the land and with the consumers. But I understand there's also another pretty important relationship in your community there that I I'd like to give you a chance to tell us about, cuz it sounds like a really fascinating story. You've already, you've shared that your son had some pretty serious health issues that kind of led you down the path of this farming method that you guys have taken to, but there's a camp nearby that other families that are affected in a similar way enjoy and, and you've been able to build a relationship with them. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (29:29):

Yeah, absolutely. So it's called Flying Horse Farms. It's down in Mt. Gilead, Ohio, founded by Paul Newman and it is such a wonderful place. When Lucas came down with the diagnosis of EE, not only did he struggle with, you know think of a 12, 13, 14, 15 year old child in school having to deal, you know, not be able to eat pizza or cookies, like, you know, his friends are doing. And so Flying Horse offers camps for kids with serious illnesses. And we were fortunate enough to find out about this and take him down there for camp. And it just did wonderful things for his confidence, for how he handled his illness. And we just wanted to be able to—we saw how much they did for him. And we wanted to be able to help in any way we could to help other kids, not only with the disease Luke has, but they foster kids with—or they have camps for kids with cancer or any serious illness you can think of.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (30:46):

They have camps for these children. And my wife's volunteered down there. My daughters have gone to sibling camps down there. Julie, my wife contacted Flying Horse Farms about, 'Hey, what do you think about doing a partnership?' We come up with some type of sausage because I mean, that's what we started this whole Bluebird Meadows Farm with was four hogs and some sausage. How about we'd come up with a sausage and the proceeds we just donate back to Flying Horse Farms to help you know, them to complete their mission of helping these kids out with serious illnesses. So we came up with our blueberry maple. So last year, all of our proceeds from our blueberry maple sausage, we were able to donate back to Flying Horse Farms to help them complete their mission of helping kids, not only the kids with the serious illness, but their families as well because families go through a lot with those children. So it, it's a great, it's a great place. It's dear to our hearts and we were fortunate to be able to, to give back to them. And we look forward to doing that again, actually.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (31:59):

So does that mean that if I look for blueberry maple sausage on Market Wagon, that a portion of those proceeds are going to this camp?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (32:08):

Blueberry maple breakfast links, a portion of those proceeds go to Flying Horse Farms.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (32:14):

That's awesome. That's really cool. And I'm glad that you shared that.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (32:18):

Yes. Thank you. Thank you. It's it, and I'm sure folks especially in Ohio around Columbus, I'm not sure where they have other camps at, throughout the state or throughout the nation. But I know folks around Columbus are probably kind of familiar with Flying Horse Farms. And it is just a special place for us. And we are so grateful to be able to give back to them.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (32:43):

In the time we've got left, tell us if somebody, other than finding you on MarketWagon.com and looking at Bluebird Meadows Farm, how else can people connect with you? Where can we find you online?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (32:52):

On Facebook we're at Bluebird Meadows Farm. Instagram, it's BBMeadowsFarm. And hey, if you're in Northeast Ohio, and you're not too far away from Lorraine County, we have our little farm store. You can swing by and pick up some nice healthy meat and local products.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (33:12):

All right. Well, if you're traveling through Northeast Ohio, look up Bluebird Meadows Farm. Are you gonna be on Google maps? Can we get navigation out there?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (33:19):

Yeah, yeah. We're on Google maps. Yep.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (33:21):

Go by the farm store. And if you're not Northeast Ohio check 'em out on MarketWagon.com or on Facebook or Instagram. My guest today has been Chris Blankenship. Chris, thanks for joining me to talk about farming.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (33:31):

Absolutely. A pleasure to be with you, Nick. Thank you.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (33:40):

Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than A Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market Wagon at MarketWagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More Than A Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, CastBox, PodChaser or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. Thank you for continuing to support local food.

Bales Farms is a special place for local food in Tennessee that boasts owner/operators including a cookbook author, a 15-time Grammy winner, and the most caring CEO (Chief of Egg Operations) you've ever heard of. Enjoy this episode of More Than a Mile as host Nick Carter talks with Aliceson and Barry Bales.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

My guests today are Barry and Aliceson Bales. And I am really excited to talk about farming and food. And also to fanboy out a little bit because I understand that I'm in the presence of a celebrity. Barry sounds like you've got a little bit of a background in Nashville and then Aliceson you've released a cookbook with quite a forward, right?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Guilty on all counts. Yeah.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Let's start with you Aliceson. So Dolly Parton is hosting the 57th Academy of Country Music Awards this coming March in Vegas, but she also did something pretty cool with your cookbook. Is that right?

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

She did. She's so lovely and kind. And so when we were writing this cookbook this past year we were wondering who we could get to write some blurbs for us. And so Barry has over the years recorded with Dolly and he said, let's give it a whirl and see if she would write something. So we sent something to her, he sent something to her and she so graciously said yes, but she wanted to see the book. So we printed off a copy, a real rough draft and sent it to her. And...

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Well, we didn't have the book together. Right. Of course. So we were like, okay. So had to run up to the printer with a PDF on a zip drive and was like can you print this off real quick?

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

Right. So she looked through it all and wrote us this sweet letter and then said you can use whatever you want, however you want. But we don't edit Dolly. And so every syllable, comma, and period. So yeah, she was so kind and so generous and she is the busiest person that anyone knows. We say, no matter what you've done today, she has done more. And you know, she just came out with a novel and then she wrote an album to go with the novel and she's hosting the ACMs next month. And she is, I don't know if you've heard about Dollywood, but it just came out, was it yesterday, that on day one, if you are an employee of Dollywood, whether you're full-time, part-time, or just seasonal, you get college tuition paid 100%. Isn't that unbelievable? She is amazing.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

She is. She is. I remember learning about -- some of the book programs that she's done in Sevier County [Tennessee] and the graduation rates that she's driven there. It's just phenomenal what she does.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Yeah. The Imagination Library. She yeah. She sends how...

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

It's every month. So your child gets a book every month from birth through kindergarten. It's amazing.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

And that's statewide in Tennessee and they've just recently expanded to Kentucky.

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

Yeah. Unbelieveable, every month. And they're really good books. I mean, it's like, classics, you know, it's The Little Engine That Could, and then at Dollywood in the summer you can go have the Ping One Playhouse and she's written plays to go with each book and she's written the songs and she is on the screen, performing the songs with the little ping one players that are out there. It's so sweet. She's amazing. Amazing.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Yeah. Now you must have a pretty amazing cookbook because she read it, liked it, wrote the forward for it. So what's the inspiration that you came up with Aliceson for this cookbook, where does it come from? Are they family recipes? Are they things you've created, a mix of both?

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

A mix of both probably. I wanted this cookbook to inspire other people to cook for the people that they love. I am a really strong believer that food brings us together. And like you say, in your intro, it's more than just something that we eat. I mean, it is the fabric that can bring people together. And I just feel like over the past few years we've gotten kind of disjointed and, and we're so isolated and separated from other people. And I want to remind people and encourage them and inspire them that you can make great food for the people that you love. And you can sit around a table and you can enjoy people of all walks of life. It doesn't just have to be the people that are nearest to you, either in ideology or, or what or location, but you can bring people to you and, and open your world and open your heart to people.

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

And I think it makes a huge difference when you are feeding people, something that you've made and you've put your heart into, and it doesn't take a lot of time. Lots of effort. It doesn't have to, but that's so much more meaningful than going through a drive-through or swinging through to pick up pizza. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but you can also incorporate homemade, wholesome, whole ingredients that have been raised, you know, for the meat that's been raised with care and respect and, and love, and it's not hard to do. And so that's what I wanted to inspire people to do and just remind them of that.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

So that's really cool. You, so it's family-style cookbooks. It's things that you, your desire is that these recipes are used to bring people around a table. I do. I think you're exactly right. I think it's, it's really fascinating how every culture throughout history and across the world right now, you can identify by their food. You know, we, we can build restaurants around, we can go to Indian food, but my wife and I travel to India a couple of years of go. And we, the, one of the one things that our hosts there wanted to show us was their food. And it was all about the dishes and, and the recipes that they had. And what are Americans known for? Fast food, right? And we invented that you can sit by yourself in a car or you can eat it on the way to soccer practice. And, and we lost something there. We lost something, our family, we nearly every evening, if there's not something really special going on, we, the five of us sit down and around a table with our three kids and we eat dinner together. And I just love it. I cherish that time.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Absolutely.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Well, thank you. I can't wait to get my hands on it and to read every word and syllable from Dolly in the front, and then to use some of the recipes. Barry, you've got a career as a musician, as well as a farmer. What, what percent gimme a percentage are, are you half musician, half farmer? Do they blend together? Can you not identify the two? How much, how would you say it?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Well, I would say right now, I'd say in the last couple of years, because of the situation we're in with COVID and whatnot 95 plus percent farmer.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Yeah. Did you tour, or are you a studio musician or both?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Both. And that's really the only music I've been doing the last little bit is recording. Particularly. I've got a set up here at home and people send me stuff by email and record on it, send it back. You know, it's kind of been, the music has been decreasing and the farming has been increasing. The farming kind of has been sort of a long-term exit strategy from touring, or at least from, you know, to get to the point where I don't have to, I can pick, be more choosy on, on what I do. You know, I mean, I've been, I've been a professional musician for 31 years, so, and I still love it. I love the people that I get to work with I love the music. But, you know, after that long—hotels and airports and suitcases kind of get a little old, I thought, well, you know, this would be cool to—besides the thing, which we might get into about our son—but I just thought, well, you know, it'd be great to have something like this, that I can sort of transition off the road. And...

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

The white line's getting longer and the saddle's getting cold. Is that what they say? I said, the white line's getting longer and the saddle's getting cold.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Yeah. Something like that. Yeah, absolutely.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

So, yeah, it's mostly, mostly farming these days.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Good. So tell me a little history of, it's Bales Farms, right, in East Tennessee. And it's a century farm. Can you tell us some of our listeners what that means and gimme a little bit of a history.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Okay. Yes. In the state of Tennessee, there's a program called the Tennessee Century Farm Program. And it's just a kind of a little historical recognition and compilation of information of all the farms that have been in continuous agricultural production for at least a hundred years in the same family. And this, this family's been in, or this farm has been in my family since 1882. And our son Marshall is the sixth generation here. So I kind of, sort of grew up here. My mom was born and raised here when she got to be grown and got out of high school, she moved up to Kingsport and took a job and stayed up there. That's where I was born, but I spent every spare second I had down here with my grandparents, you know, they were my heroes and they would come and pick me up at school the day it let out for summer. And they'd take me back the day before it started back in the fall. So I feel like I grew up here as, at least as much, if not more than I did, you know, where I was actually born in Kingsport, which is only about an hour away.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Well, my family farm comes from originally, not too far from you. My great-grandfather, he moved to the flatlands of north central Indiana to start the farm where I would've been the fourth-generation farmer. He moved there from the Blue Ridge Mountains just south of you. And he always joked that he moved up here because he was tired of his cattle falling outta the pasture. So, and I think it's funny. So you're, you're raising beef and pork, right. Out on pasture, a hundred percent grass.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Yep. Completely grass-fed, grass-finished, beef, pastured pork. We do pastured poultry and our son Marshall, who's 14, he's the head of the egg operation. He's got he's down, down right now. But last summer, I think at the height, he had about 400 layers on pasture.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

And he's how old?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

14.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

14 years old, he's got 400 layers and he's pasturing them. So for some of our listeners who don't know how that works, you've got a chicken tractor essentially, right. It's on wheels or mobile. And so he drags that thing around what, every two or three days he's gonna move it to a new spot. Right?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Every day.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Every day he moves it to a new spot. Well, then I was a lazy chicken tractor driver.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

He's, he's got an egg mobile you know, on we built it on a car haul or trailer. And so he just moves it. He'll set up a big paddock, you know, with poultry netting, but he moves the tractor itself one length every day within that paddock, just because, you know, there's so much manure, it falls that it just creates a hot spot real quick. But, but yeah, he, he gathers the eggs, washes, em, packs 'em, you know, the whole deal.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Where does he sell them?

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

We do is drive. Is we deliver them? Yeah. For him.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Fourteen's not too young to drive [laughing].

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Just not on the road. Yeah. Yet.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

That, that you'll, that you'll record audio and, and have published right. There we go. Yeah. I think I was 12 the first time I was hauling wagons from one field to another, from my dad's grain operation. So does he sell his eggs on Market Wagon or anywhere else? Does he have a farm stand or does he set up at any farmer's markets?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

We do. No, we don't do farmer's markets. We do we've got twice a month pick up locations around the area and then and then on Market Wagon, and then people can come to the farm and, and pick up if they'd like, we've got a, a store on our website.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

That's fantastic. Now we've already touched on little pieces of it. And I wanna make sure that some of our listeners who don't necessarily know the makeup, chicken manure and chicken tractor and why you would move 'em around every day. I want you to tell me a little bit in your own words about like, what, what sustainability means for you on your farm, how you're stewarding the land, how you're taking care of the soils and just walk us through some of that, because you've at beef pork and chickens.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Yeah, absolutely. And, and this is, it's kind, it's been a, has been a, a big learning curve learning experience and, and of course ongoing, but, you know, when I was growing up, we had beef cattle here and they just had run of the farm, you know, it's, it's, they just went wherever they want, as most people do, and didn't think anything about it. And the more I've gotten into it and the more I've of course gone to different conferences and listened to, of course, now we have the internet and YouTube and all that kind of stuff. We can hopefully learn things quicker. You know, I'm like a lot of people, I'm a huge disciple of Joel Salatin, Gabe Brown, Ray Archuleta, all those guys. And through that have learned a lot more about sustainable agriculture, regenerative agriculture. So just kind of in a nutshell, what that entails, at least as it relates to our farm is we rotate our cattle. Rotational grazing is the term. And we'll set up a temporary paddock with a temporary electric fence and try to just give the animals, you know, there's various formulas for figuring out how much grass they need and whatnot, but basically, we try to give 'em enough grass for one day. So in that area, they're in, and then the next day we come along and we move 'em to the next paddock, and we continue that all the way around the farm. And hopefully, they don't come back to that first paddock that they grazed on for at least 30, 45 days or more to give it a chance to regrow. And the reason that we do that is I was using this as an analogy, the other day—you know, if you tell your 10-year-old, Hey, go in the kitchen and fix yourself some supper, well, they're gonna go straight to the freezer and get out the ice cream.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

And, you know, that's kind of what cattle do, you know, they'll go straight to the really good stuff like the clovers and the orchard grass and Timothy. And they just keep—if you don't rotate them, they just keep going back to it and hitting it as it regrows and eventually kill it out. And the less desirable stuff comes along. So that all that helps your pasture. It helps your grass for that reason. And also you are more intensively distributing the manure, which is fertilizer, and you get a much more even spreading of that. We've not—golly it's been 10 or 15 years since I've bought chemical fertilizer. And you know, the hoof action too, you know, you've got your, your seed bank with the seeds in there that last for, you know, years and years and years and years. And as that is disturbed by the hooves you know, you get more regrowth of that. And then we follow along with the chickens behind that. And you get more manure from that, the chickens scratch in the cow manure, and that you know, that helps cut down on your fly problem. You know, they get in there and eat the eggs that the flies lay. We also rotate, rotate our pigs, you know, they're in the woods right now this time of year, but we also rotate them through the pasture and, you know, pigs, as you know, but some listeners may not, pigs will graze grass, just like cows will.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Yep.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

You know, you don't have to have pigs in a small little pig sty as it were, you know, pigs are not inherently nasty. They just, unfortunately, get kept in bad spots, a lot of times.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

They also tend to really like what's under the grass more so than what's on top of it sometimes. So do you let, 'em turn over a pasture every now and then, and really work it down and destroy it and reset it?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

I don't let, 'em go too intensively. I could probably stand to let 'em do more, but I just—I tend to move the pigs through pretty fast.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

We had a paddock at dad's farm. We raised very similar pasture-raised beef in north central Indiana. And he hadn't had hogs for about 20 years. The hog market crashed in 97. That's when we got outta hogs. About four years ago, he got back into it, but pasture-raised and there was a paddock that was pretty much useless to the cattle by that point—it had been overtaken by calamus, which is a very invasive species that just keeps spreading through its roots. And so he just put the hogs on there for a solid summer, and they just destroyed the whole root system. I mean, the place looked like a mud pit, but then the next year, what came back from that seed bank was actual grass and clover and what cattle would actually eat. So it was kind of a reset button for that pasture. Yeah.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Yeah. And that's the thing is, is using, you know, that's the whole idea. I think, the two main ideas behind regenerative ag are you're focusing on growing better grass through taking care of your soil—soil health—and using the animals as tools to that end.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

I think one of the quotes I've remembered from Joel Salatin is, "On our farm, the animals do the hard work." Yeah. Turning stuff over, doing the plowing. What's the future of Bales Farms. Talk to me. Where, where do you see this going? You've been you're the sixth generation to farm on it. What's that mean to you? And, and how important is it to think about what comes next?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

That's, you know, if, if you gotta take it with a grain of salt, because for me, especially, you know, something like that, you can kinda let it get in your head and be like, wow, that's some serious pressure. But, you know, with Marshall, I'm trying to, that's kind of how we got back into this. You know, I was touring so much that I didn't have time to farm. Didn't have time to keep animals. And once he was born, I thought, you know, I'd really love for him to have at least a little taste of what I had growing up to learn where his food comes from, have chores to do, that kind of thing. And it just kind of snowballed from there. So, you know, he, he may or may not take up the reins and, you know, come back here and farm for a living. But if he's got, you know, he will definitely have the tools he needs and the life experiences to be a success, whatever he does. And, you know, if that happens as a result of what we're doing now and where he's living and the responsibilities he has, then you know, this farm will have been a success. And I would like to think, you know, if nothing else, it'll always be here to come back and bring the grandkids and fish and, you know, whatever else. But for me personally, from a, from a next step farming thing, we just want to continue to grow and, and try to do it better. And, and we're constantly thinking how to grow the business, how to grow the brand, how to leave this place better than we found it. You know, that's a, that's a big thing I'm, I'm always researching and trying to figure out, okay, well, how's a better way to do this. What am I doing wrong? You know, we're really getting into cover crops now. And, and just a lot, you know, lots of different things. I, I definitely want it to keep going and to grow, but in a lot of ways, if it doesn't do anything more than what it's done now, it's, it's still a success to me.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Yeah. I would agree. I think it's a raging success. I think the experience you're creating for Marshall is you can't get that anywhere else other than a farm.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

I told him the other day there's some friends of mine that we all grew up together and we were on a daily text thread together. And a couple of 'em are engineers. One of 'em is a chiropractor. And something was said, one of 'em was complaining today about some of the potential employees that they had coming in, you know, and I told this to them, but I also told it to Marshall. If I was in any kind of a position, non-agriculture, to hire somebody and a resume came across my desk from somebody that grew up on a farm, I think I'd probably hire 'em sight unseen. You know. Because they're probably already so far ahead.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Yeah. They've been driving for 20 years already, so well [laughing]. We're sitting here talking about your farm and helping to share your story and your passion. And I appreciate you, you letting us know about it. What is it—how important is it to you to be able to connect directly with the people that are eating the eggs off of your farm and the beef off of your farm. And to know that you're feeding your community?

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

That's really important to us. You know, when you, when you think about it, we can't, we can't beat Walmart with price or with convenience. But it is very important. I tell people this a lot, I'm very passionate about knowing where your food comes from, whether you get your food from us or from somebody else, whether you are, you know, a customer of Market Wagon—you all make it so easy for people. You know, they just open their door on Thursday and there, it says it's so, or in Knoxville anyway, but you know, once a week you open the door and everything that you ordered is there. And so whether or not you, wherever you get your food, wherever you get it, you need to know where that food has come from. You need to know if you're if you're eating beef, or chicken, or pork, you need to know the life that the animal lived, that it is important. You need to know if you're eating a carrot, you need to know the soil that it was raised in. And I, I'm not saying you need to be organic, or you need to be, you know, one label or another because labels can be very confusing, but you need to know how the animal was raised, how the plant was raised because it's important. And, you know, I heard you talking with I think it was Nate [Parks], a few podcasts ago about—that it takes time and it takes money to invest in doing it the right way. And so sometimes, yeah, it's a little bit more expensive at the front end, but it's so much better for you that you're saving money throughout the process. And that's important. And you don't get that if you go to Walmart and buy your eggs, you know, but if, but Marshall's customers who buy his eggs, you know, they can see him. And they can see him on social media and he loves his chickens. And sometimes, especially when we used to go and help him a little bit, some people would get a little side-ways...

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

I'd be trying to get him, you know, I'd be out there humping it and trying to get the paddock set up and all this. And I'm like, where is Marshall? What is he doing? And I'd look over and he'd be, have a chicken up hugging and kissing, all that stuff. [Laughter]

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

But, you know, that's, that's important. And you, it should be that way. It should be that way that the farmer is taking steps to ensure that that animal is raised the way that God intended that animal to be raised. And that we're just really passionate about it. It's very important to us.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Well, as you alluded to with the fast-food comment early on, you know, it's gotten somehow or another, it's gotten so backward. I mean, there's very few things, more important to life than food, but we've gotten to where it's become just a disposable for lack of a better term. You know, nobody thinks anything about it. You know, you go through and I, you know, I get it from a financial standpoint, but that's a whole nother conversation about how it got to be that way. But, you know, I know a lot of people are like, well, why wouldn't I just go through the drive-through and get a value meal for $3?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

But there's so many, it's just, it's so frustrating for me because we do put such care and such love in raising our animals and taking care of this farm. And it's very personal to us, you know? So we, it is very important for us to, to deal with the customers one on one and let them see. And that's, you know, you know, this, this part of the business, it's all about relationships. You know, when we kind of started getting back into it more and more, I got hung up there for a while on, okay, well, people want this adjective and this descriptor and this, and, you know, they don't really care. At least our customers don't, they know us, we've, we've been at it long enough and have developed relationships so that they know us. They know how we do things and that's all they need to know. So that's gigantically important to us.

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

And they know us and they have had a relationship with us, which was the original question, sorry. But this relationship that we have built within, they know that we are transparent and authentic and trustworthy. And so when you have that relationship with people and they know, you know, they've been here, they've been on this farm. And so they've seen, oh, they've seen Marshall move that chicken tractor, or they've seen us feed the pigs. They've gotten in with us while we feed the pigs and the pigs eat from our hand and eat from their hands, or, you know, they've gone with us when we move the steers. So when you have that kind of a relationship with people, they know that they can trust you and they value that, and we value them. And so it's all about a relationship.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Wow. I couldn't have said it better. I think that your customers, you're doing your community, a service and your customers appreciate it, and they see what you're doing for 'em. How can aside from finding you on MarketWagon.com and following you there and learning about your farm and buying your products, how else can our listeners learn a little bit more about you? Follow you, find you on social media or online?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

We have a website, BalesFarmsTN.com.

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

And we're on Instagram.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

We're on Instagram @BalesFarms. We're on Facebook—Bales Farms TN, and we're on YouTube. We've got a lot of recipe videos on YouTube and different things, fun things around the farm.

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

Yeah. Barry just did smash burgers for the Super Bowl.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

On your YouTube or Instagram channel. Could we hear any of Barry plucking at an upright bass by chance?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

I've got some, yeah. I mean, I do some of the background music for our little videos. Yeah.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

I thought you might. Cool. Well, it's been a pleasure being able to talk with you and connect face-to-face here and on this recording and people want to hear your story about Bales Farms and thank you so much for the care that you put into the land that you've been given to steward from six generations back. I think that's just amazing.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Thanks. Thanks for having us. This has been a lot. It's been a pleasure.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Yeah, it's been my pleasure. All right. Well, my guests today have been Barry and Aliceson with Bales Farms and you can learn about Bales Farms on MarketWagon.com—get those eggs and you'll keep a 14-year-old employed and happy and hens happy.

Nick Carter (Host) (00:04):

Welcome to More Than A Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and CEO, and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmer's market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. And I look forward to crafting a generational quilt of farmer stories and experiences, the victories and challenges of individuals, families, and teams doing their part to help democratize food in America. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than A Mile, and thank you for buying local food. That's one critical step in making an investment in food for future generations.

Nick Carter (Host) (00:54):

Well, my guest today is Regina "Reggie" Green. You go by Reggie, most of your life, Regina? I should assume so because the name of your company is Reggie's Creations. You are quite the chef, it looks like you started your company based on a recipe for Buckeyes. Can you tell me that story?

Reggie Green (01:14):

Yes, actually the story of how I got started is two—is actually two parts. I was working at a restaurant called Hyde Park Prime Steak House in downtown, Short North, Columbus. I had a girl that was actually transferred there. She was transferred from Cleveland and she was—it was during the holidays and she wanted to give her mother a gift of Buckeyes. And she said she can't get Buckeyes at all in Cleveland. She's been looking for somebody to do homemade ones. She said, no knock on Anthony Thomas—But she said the only ones that they really have there is Anthony Thomas, but they don't taste like homemade. They taste like processed. So she said, does anybody know anybody that can make 'em? And I said, well, you know what, if you don't mind, I'll just make 'em. I mean, how hard can they be? And I said, they don't look very hard. And she was like sure, if you want to, and I said, how many orders do you want? I said, what 12? And she said, can I get five dozen? like, oh, oh, okay, sure. I could do that. So I went home and I started making the Buckeyes and the one thing as I was making them, I was like, Buckeyes are so good. I can only have two or three because they're so rich, but they're so boring. And I said, there's nothing really to them. And I said, so I called her and I said, "Hey Tamika, do you mind if I kind of play around with the flavors a little bit?" And she said, well, what do you mean play around with them? And I said, "well, can you do me a favor and just ask your mom without telling her the surprise, what flavors does she like?" So she came back and told me oh my mom loves cookie dough. She loves coconut. She loves the Heath bars. And I was like, okay. And I said, so I started experimenting with them. And then I was—I infused like my own coconut milk into a Buckeye and I dipped it in chocolate with coconuts. And then I did a cookie dough one—I made cookies and crumbled 'em and rolled 'em around the Buckeyes. And I made six different Buckeyes. And my friend Tamika that asked for the Buckeyes as a gift, she loves coffee. So I made one with coffee infused in it. And so I gave her the regular ones and I gave her the ones that I did as an infusion, just for fun.

Reggie Green (03:42):

And she took 'em to her mother and came back and said—she walked straight up to me—she said, you have got to sell those. She said the Buckeyes were really good—but the infused ones were awesome. And after that it kind of took off. Tamika was more into my business at that time than I was, but she took my —she was, every time we worked at the restaurant, she would make me make more Buckeyes and she would give them as like little party gifts when they were done with their dinner. Like you do with a mint, but she would give one of my Buckeyes. And then they were like, where did this come from? When she gave one to Eugene Smith, that is director of athletics for Ohio State. And he had one and he put that up for trademark and licensing with Ohio State. So I was approved, but sad to say at the time, I did not believe in myself. I did not believe that I deserved that success and the recognition that I was getting and it scared me. So I kind of walked away from it. And I was like—I gave up the business. I didn't have the greatest support system at all. So I ended up walking away from it. It wasn't until 2020 that I lost my job as food and beverage manager because of COVID. And I was doing everything DoorDash, InstaCart, GrubHub, you name it—to pay my bills. And I was part of a Facebook group called Columbus jobs. And on, there was an ad from Market Wagon saying they're, looking for drivers their business is booming and it was from Lily and they said you get what called me about the ad. It said that you get paid that day. So I went. I applied, then I became a driver, and then I worked in the warehouse, and then we had the shut-in where you guys were looking for vendors. So I told Lily, Hey, I used to make Buckeyes, you know if you, if anybody during the shutdown is looking for sweets, I could at least make those. So she said, oh it, okay. So I applied, got my license. And then that's when I started as a vendor with Market Wagon. And my first week I sold nine orders. And I sat down with my fiance at the time and I said, Hey, do you mind if I open this up a little bit more be two feet in, or really take the chance in really making this business about who I am and what I do. And he was 100% behind me. And the next product I introduced was infused butters and cream cheese. And my order went from—my orders, went from nine to over 70 in one week. And then it just kept growing from there. And I went from one market to now I'm in five. So, yeah, but that's how I got started with Market Wagon.

Nick Carter (Host) (06:56):

From laid off from the food service industry to gig work, to pay the bills, to driving at this crazy little company called Market Wagon that delivers local food to making the food, to sell on Market Wagon. And now tell us where your business is today. How would you describe it?

Reggie Green (07:20):

Today? I would tell you if it was not for Market Wagon the platform that you, your company has put towards mine brings me to tears. If it was not for you exposing my passion and what I do, I don't know where I would be. And that, that is the truth. I—my passion is food. I love food. I can be in—I have been known to be in the kitchen from the time I wake up until the time I go to bed. I even have a TV in my kitchen. And food is what I am, is what I do. I did not, I was not brought up in a family where we would be in the kitchen and cooking together. I actually learned how to cook from being in restaurants. And I was very privileged to work with so many different chefs to where I got that background from them. They taught me to enhance my passion for cooking. But today—so I went in a year, I went from being a driver to Market Wagon to now being, I averaged 90 to a hundred orders in Cleveland alone for Thursdays. And I get so excited when I see reviews about my product. I get so excited when I post a new product and somebody buys it first. And so I cannot express the appreciation I have for your company. And I thank you every day.

Nick Carter (Host) (09:10):

I'm gonna go ahead and be completely honest, coming into a podcast like this. I should do all my research. I should know everything about my guests and have all have a really good profile in front of me. And I just looked up, you know, about your current company, what you sell, what your menu is and, and your presence on Market Wagon. Until you just told me this story I had no idea that your story began as one of our drivers. And you have been able to build this company, Reggie's Creations on the Market Wagon platform. It blows me away just to hear your story and I'm yeah, I'm speechless. Not a good position to be in when you're supposed to be a podcast host, but I'm speechless.

Reggie Green (09:57):

No, it's okay. but I, that is from sincere from bottom of my heart, if it was not for Market Wagon, I would not—I do not know where I would be and I thank you for letting me showcase what I'm very passionate about.

Nick Carter (Host) (10:13):

Well, I thank you for bringing that passion to Market Wagon. Our customers love to know people like you and I can't wait to share this story as far and wide as we can, because this is why people are shopping on Market Wagon. It's because they want to make a difference for Reggie, not for, you know, Jeff Bezos or something like that. They want, they wanna know where their dollars are going. And this is a clear story that when you are buying—and it's more than Buckeyes now, we'll talk about that—but when you're buying food from local artisans and chefs like you, this is just a perfect story as to why this matters. Let's talk about what you make. You mentioned the chefs that believed in you tell me a little bit, you were working at a restaurant. You've been in kitchens for a long time. You've been in the restaurant industry. What, 20 years? How, how long have you been a chef?

Reggie Green (11:09):

I've been in a restaurant since I was 16 years old. It is going to be 36 years that I've been in restaurants.

Nick Carter (Host) (11:19):

Careful. Some of, some of our listeners have the math ability to, to age you right now.

Reggie Green (11:24):

Oh, I don't mind telling my age? I actually tell people that I'm older than what I am.

Nick Carter (Host) (11:28):

36 years in the restaurant industry, but you mentioned that you weren't comfortable with the success early on that people had for your Buckeyes. You, you just didn't have that confidence. What got you over the edge? What, what helped you to form this company and then go forward and put your products out there and let people try 'em?

Reggie Green (11:47):

I think what happened is that when COVID hit 2020, I worked for so many different companies, one for over a decade. And when I had lost my position as food and beverage manager, I didn't have anything, Nick, nothing. I didn't have a 401k. I didn't have paid leave. I didn't have medical/dental. I didn't even have life insurance because my company did not provide it. All they provided me with was a lot of responsibility and ability for my talents to make that company money. And when I lost my job, I got mad. It was like, you know what? I've been, I dedicated pretty much three-fourths of my life into a food industry that I love, that I have a great passion for. And when that opportunity came as a vendor and I, when I thought about it, I'm like, what are the odds that one day I'm just looking on a Facebook page that is for a job for Market Wagon, and then less than a month that I'm there, you're looking for vendors because they can't handle the volume that's coming in. And I am able to get a hold of this opportunity. So when that happened, what clicked in me is that this is my time. This is my time to showcase what I do. I'm very, I was always very good at presenting and making and creating for so many other people that I felt at the end that I wasn't appreciated, and I wasn't valued. And that's what clicked. That was what was different from 2012 to now. And I'm not gonna stop. I'm gonna keep doing what I do, because this is my time. And I know this is my time to get what I have a passion for. That I deserve it now. And I have the support unit of my husband that I did not have that before. No, I'm, I'm gonna keep going. And I'm, I'm just getting started.

Nick Carter (Host) (14:14):

You do deserve it now, and you deserved it then, but now, you know, you deserve it now. And I'm just so proud of you. It takes, don't sell yourself short because when you were in that situation unexpectedly without a job—opportunity, is there for people who are moving, right, who are doing things. And you were looking around for every job you were looking for every opportunity. That's the reason why the opportunity presented itself before you, because you were looking and you found just the ability to come and drive for us. But as soon as the call went out and you're right, there's more demand for local food than we have supply. We're always looking for more vendors. There's so much opportunity for people who do just what you do, there's so much opportunity, but what you did was you said, okay, if there's an opportunity to sell food here, I'm gonna go do it and kudos to you. I'm just, I'm blown away by this story, Reggie, and thank you so much for sharing it. And it's not just you—you were a vendor in our Columbus, Ohio market to start with. Now. Customers can find you in a lot of the other Ohio markets, but tell me about the community that existed even within that market. Because you source fresh ingredients, right? You're not only selling food that you're producing locally, but are you building partnerships with the farmers and the food producers that are a part of that local community there?

Reggie Green (15:31):

Yes, I actually, when they are in season and even off-season, I go to a farm called Lynd Farm in Pataskala [Ohio], oddly enough that I was partnered with them—when I was a food and beverage manager, the restaurant that I worked at was in Pataskala and I went and met the family. They were our local farmers there. They grew their own pears, apples, you name it, they had it. And what was very important to me is that we locally sourced from farmers in the area to say, this is locally made and produced. I believe in having a very strong relationship with farmers and local people because, you know, you get to know who they are and where the product comes from and how it's made. And I just think people have—bring their passion into it as well. I also have—the very first, maybe month that I was with Market Wagon—I am a huge person that believes in collaboration and partnership. So one person, one vendor that I got to know a little bit more about was Dirty Girl Coffee. I did not know that it was all female and woman-owned coffee growers. They grow their own beans. They have their own shop. And I reached out to them and said, Hey, listen, I tried/bought one of your coffees—is the Columbian blend. I wanna make cookies with it. And I said, is it okay if I use your picture, your coffee actually in my picture for my Down & Dirty cookies, because I told them that I wanted to think of a name that celebrated them and who they are. And so I read up on Dirty Girl Coffee and I found out that they're from Athens [Ohio] that's all females and they, their logo is getting dirty, getting your hands down and dirty. I'm like, oh man, down and dirty coffee cookies is perfect. So I came up with that. That was my first collaboration, but I also collaborate with a company from Cincinnati who makes over 200 different types of teas. I do a pound cake in a bread pudding of the month with them that is made with one of their teas. But I also am a partner with another vendor is Witt Farms. They have been providing me with bones so I can start using that to make different prepared meals like soups. I actually use one of their bones and made a broth with it to make the pork enchiladas that I just introduced. So having that partnership to me, the bigger we are as a family, the more we're going to grow, especially if I can say, Hey, this was made from somebody else you just buy from as well. So I believe in highlighting all of us highlighting each other. So me getting locally farmed produce stuff from farmers and other artisans is extremely important to me.

Nick Carter (Host) (18:44):

Well, you're, you are a leader. You're leading because of your creations and your creativity, which customers love, they love your recipes. They love what you're inventing. It brings a delight to their tables. And so they're gonna respond to that with buying more of your stuff, you could probably save a buck. You could probably go buy some cheaper ingredients, some industrial-scale agriculture foods at large wholesalers and make a little bit more profit. But what I love about the story, Reggie, what you just told me is that you take that success that has, that you've been blessed with through Market Wagon and now you're spreading it out. You're, you're taking that and you're going to other local farmers, other local producers, and making sure that it has an impact even beyond you. And thank you for your commitment to the local food community because it's much needed, and leaders like you are vital to this success of everybody. Now, so we've touched a little bit on the menu. So we started off with Buckeyes and you were bold enough to tinker with an age old recipe. I mean, I don't Buckeyes are kind of a, a tried and true—You've got your peanut butter core and chocolate outside, and you took that and expanded it, but from candy or, you know, a sugary treat to pork [enchiladas] how do you find the time to come up with new recipes and decide, you know, how to put out there more stuff into the marketplace?

Reggie Green (20:15):

Well in the beginning, Nick, it actually had to do with my license. when I very first got started. I was only allowed to do confections. I was only allowed to do candy, cookies, cakes. And I am not gonna sit here and even begin to try to tell you that I enjoy baking. I do not. I am not a baker. I am a, I am a cook. I am a cook. And only because baking is so unforgiving, it's like if you accidentally mix baking soda instead of baking powder, you have a huge mess. And with cooking, you have so much more freedom. So what I had to do is retrain myself when I only in the begin, when I can only, they said, no, no, no, Reggie, you can only do this because your license only allows you to do this.

Reggie Green (21:12):

And I'm like, okay, so I can only make this, this and this. So I'm like, okay, where, when can I go to this next step? And they said, now you have to get your home bakery license. Now you can make cheesecakes and you can do bread puddings and you do all this other stuff. And actually a funny story is that I got in trouble one time with the Department of Agriculture, because I thought making baked goods—as long as it's in a pie shell, I can do anything with it as long as it's in a pie shell. And so the first thing that I made is—I said, I wanna make something savory. So I made a Galette, which is—I make my own pie dough , but I add sauteed spinach, artichoke hearts. I caramelized my own onions and I put it into this pie shell.

Reggie Green (22:05):

Well, the Department of Agriculture saw it on Market Wagon and they came to visit me and they said, Reggie, you can't make that. And I was like, why? It's in a pie shell. They said, cause your home bakery license, won't let you do that. Fine! So what can I, what do I need in order to be able to make it? So they said you have to be in a commercial kitchen. So once I went to a commercial kitchen, now I'm in a commissary and they, I said, so what can I do? They said, you can do whatever you want. And I said, fine. So that's when I started [to] open up the flood gates. I said, so since I'm allowed to do everything, I am going to start doing everything. I am going to do what I love and that's cook and I'm gonna start introducing meals, side dishes, you name it, I'm going to really show what my what creations mean. So I started to a side and I did test the waters. Because I know in the beginning, people probably just know me as doing sweets. So the first thing I did was introduce a side dish and that was mac and cheese. And I did mac and cheese—I did truffle mac and cheese and I did mac and cheese with bacon. And then I see how those waters tested and those, those exploded. I sold so many. So then I introduced broccoli au gratin and then a real, a recipe that I created about five years ago was potatoes au Guinness. And that is when I make a scalloped potato, but it's like potatoes au gratin, but I use—I make a Guinness cheese. So I just let my imagination go as far—it was in stages. So if you saw me in the beginning, I only did sweets. That's only because my license, well only let me do that. But now that my license is like, you can do whatever you want. I'm taking that full advantage.

Nick Carter (Host) (24:10):

Believe me, I know the, the difficulties of regulation, the rules kind of constrain what you can do. It's amazing that you, you understood the restrictions, right? And the, and just work for them, the limitations to get going and off the ground. But just pressed it ahead and congrats to you. So what's the favorite thing that you make now? What, what do you, if you had a your pick ticket, which is what for our listeners, that's what tells Reggie what she needs to make, what people have ordered each week. If you look at your pick ticket, what's the most exciting thing for you to see? Oh, good. I get to go make this. What do you like?

Reggie Green (24:42):

The one thing I really do like to make is my bread pudding. I really like making that because it is so many different possibilities that you can get with that. When I, actually had where I would—I emailed all my followers and I told them let's have a little contest. I discovered a place called Church Hill Fine Teas from—through the farmer's market. I did my first farmer's market last year in May. And when I was there, the coffee shop that had asked me to be a part of it, they sold Churchill Teas. Well, I didn't know who that was. And I found out that they were out of Cincinnati. That is actually 20 minutes away from the hub. So I went to visit them and they had over 200 different teas—of teas I've never even known that you can make a flavor with that. I mean, they even have a tea called a Findlay Market, that's a bloody mary. And I was like, oh no, we're we gotta, I said, I have to take full advantage and make some bread puttings out of these. So every month I told my followers, if you come up with suggestions of, if you go on churchillsteas.com and you look to see what kind of teas they have, you suggest one that you think will make a, a really delicious, unique bread pudding. If I like that suggestion for the month, I will make the bread pudding. I'll let you name it and I'll give you a $20 discount code for—and then you don't have to buy for me—I said, you can buy from anybody and I'll give you a bread pudding, so you can try your own creation. And that is so much fun for me to make, because I get really interesting—I got one lady that suggested the white wedding and said, you should call it the rebel yell. And it was, it's so many suggestions coming in. And I think the reason why I really love making a bread, one is fun to make, to see all the different things that could come together. Like this month is carrot cake bread pudding. And I make a cream cheese caramel sauce with it, but to see somebody get to actually name it and come up with a name for it. And there I, and the reason why the bread pudding is so much is my favorite is because that's the one I feel the most connected to customers with. Because they're involved in it and they get so excited. Like, did I win? Did I win? And I'm like not this month, but next month, you know, you never know. I said, keep the suggestions coming. So hands down, that's my favorite one to make.

Nick Carter (Host) (27:39):

That's genius. I, I just I'm blown away. So I wanna talk about this for a quick minute because a lot of our customers and, and even some of the vendors on Market Wagon who are listening to this, might not be aware of what you're talking about, where you are able to connect directly with the customers on Market Wagon. They're your customers, Market Wagon is a marketplace where customers are finding you, but you're really leaning into that—you've been able to directly message and chat and engage with the customers that you have on the Market Wagon platform. They're getting back to you, their ideas for recipes. What's that mean to you to be able to have a direct connection to the folks that are eating your food around their table every week?

Reggie Green (28:20):

There is nothing—there's nothing like it. I get a few—I don't, I hate to say—I don't like calling them followers. That is, I like calling them supporters because without their support, I would not be here. I can make all the greatest food in the world, but if they're not there to support me and buy the products, I don't exist. So for me, I've had conversations with supporters that told me that I introduced—there was one lady that told me that I had made a I used to, I don't make it anymore, but it's I, I do, but only for her, I, I introduced a chocolate silk pie about eight months ago. And it was her—Deborah—It was her mother's favorite and her mother was ill. And she told me that...I'm sorry, I'm trying not to cry. But she told me that her mom, when she got it, started crying because she remembered having that. And it was her favorite pie. So even though I do not have that anymore on the website, I still send it to Debbie and I don't have her pay for that. It's like, you give it to your mother. And they mean the world to me. I appreciate it every day, what they do. You know, I had somebody say, well, what about bad reviews? I'm like, you know what? A bad review is actually a good review because I learned from it. I read to see what they say and I fix it. So, and with that, I would even have somebody—I've had so many supporters reach out to me and say, "Hey. I got this product and it was smashed, or it was broke, or it was something else like that. And if they're local, I'm getting in my car and I'm taking it to them—a new one. It's like, no, did you, what? Your stuff was damaged? I'll be there in like 15 minutes to give you your stuff. Even if it was an hour away, I'm going to take it because I can only imagine the expression on their face that they're looking forward to that tote and all the little goodies inside of it. And to open it up and see it smashed, it must have been like, oh man, that's heartbreaking. So if I can fix it by getting in my car and taking a new one, so be it. Because like I said, without you introducing Market Wagon, and without them being there to support, not just me, but all the other vendors, is—it, you can't compare that. The fact that I'm able to, I said, and Nick, I actually mentioned it to Jeremy. That I would think it would be so cool—We can't do it now because it cause of COVID—I said, but I always thought that it would be really cool if we had a "Meet The Vendor" event, to where if we had it to where it was a Columbus, you and it could be during the summer one time during the summer to where we are there, and they're able to buy the product with us face to face. And I'm able to meet my—Debbie and I'm able to meet Amber and I'm able to meet them face to face. I think that will be such a cool event to make it more of a community of Market Wagon. But I, the, the fact that I can talk to 'em and, and communicate with them one on one is—I love that. That's like one of the best parts of Market Wagon.

Nick Carter (Host) (32:20):

Well, and thank you for engaging with it because it's so important, right? The customers love to hear from you as you've already figured out. They wanna know what you're up to. So as we're running outta time here, just as we close, I wanna give you an opportunity to tell our listeners, aside from on Market Wagon.com, where they can look up Reggie's Creations, and they can find you there. And they can, I won't say follow. They can become a supporter of what you do. And I think anybody listening to this podcast is gonna be doing that if they haven't already, because your story is just amazing. And, and you have a magnetic or just an energizing personality. I've just enjoyed every bit of this conversation, but how else can somebody connect with you? Are you on social media? Are you, do you have any brick-and-mortar locations? How else can we get to know you?

Reggie Green (33:05):

I started Door Dash last Sunday, and we are gonna start a couple Sundays, but anybody that is locally in Columbus, you can find me on Door Dash. Every Sunday we start serving breakfast from 6:30 to 11 a.m. And it is pretty cool because there's some items on there we don't sell on Market Wagon. And we also do local deliveries on Saturday only. And that is—you can order online ReggiesCreations.com.

Nick Carter (Host) (33:39):

Awesome. Well, Reggie, this has been an absolute delight and I'm so grateful for you to take the time here, but it's also just the time that you spend to engage with customers and to make every single one of them smile. It's amazing and I'm so glad to hear the success that you're having with your kitchen.

Reggie Green (33:58):

Oh, thank you. I appreciate it, Nick. Thank you again for allowing, for letting me be a part of the podcast. I really appreciate it.

Nick Carter (Host) (34:08):

My guest today, again, has been Reggie Green, with Reggie's Creations, and you can find her amazing foods on Market Wagon.com. Thanks for listening.

Nick Carter (Host) (34:25):

Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than A Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market Wagon at MarketWagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More Than A Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, CastBox, Pod Chaser or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Thank you for continuing to support local food.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky, food scientist and founder of 8 Track Foods, joins host Nick Carter to discuss plant-based foods, sustainability, giving back to help the planet, and more on this episode of More Than A Mile. 

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (00:04):

Welcome to More Than A Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and CEO, and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmer's market with a mission to enable producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. And I look forward to crafting a generational quilt of farmer stories and experiences, the victories and challenges of individuals, families, and teams doing their part to help democratize food in America. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than A Mile, and thank you for buying local food. That's one critical step in making an investment in food for future generations.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (00:53):

Welcome to More Than A Mile. My guest today is Maggie Seng Sadowski and I am really excited to talk about food because I am here with a leading expert in food. So I'm gonna brag a little bit. Maggie, say hi.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (01:09):

Hi, how are you doing today, Nick?

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (01:11):

I'm doing great. For those of you who don't know, Maggie's a vendor on Market Wagon, 8 Track Foods, and it's a line of canned beans, which we'll talk about how a leading food scientist got into a canned bean company. But you have probably eaten something created by Maggie in the past because over a hundred different products on the market today, from other food companies, involve inventions or innovations that Maggie's worked on. And then a couple of years ago, she spun off her own plant-based food company. And we're here to talk about that. So Maggie, let's just start with the beginning. How did you get involved in food science? When did you realize, I want to invent things that people eat?

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (01:53):

Well, it's kind of a tricky path, but it starts with, I was always really curious as a child putting things together and making potions in the backyard. And it led me to a love of chemistry. And I ended up going to Ohio State for food, I mean, for chemistry, and then along the path found food science, and it really kind of solidified the why of how things work in food. So why does your toast brown? Why does, you know, cheese melt? All of those things just became incredibly fascinating to me. And so it married kind of this love of food and this love of actually, hands-on creating things and applied chemistry. So that's really where it started.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (02:37):

So it started in a kitchen. [Do] you love to cook?

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (02:40):

I do love to cook, but I'll just, I like to say, I like to watch other people cook too. So I -- tinkering in the kitchen. I'm probably just a little bit more precision-based in that regard.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (02:51):

That's like the difference between baking and cooking, right? Baking is chemistry and cooking is art.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (02:56):

Exactly.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (02:57):

That's what I've always thought.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (02:58):

Yeah. It's so true.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (03:00):

So you started off in chemistry at The Ohio State University, ended up in food science. So tell me a little, so 8 Track Foods is the name of your business. And I don't think it, the title was modeled after an antiquated music delivery technology. Tell me about what 8 means.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (03:20):

No. So 8 Track Foods was really this idea that I wanted to kind of turn back the clock to a time where people, you know, gathered around the table and we were more community based and we cooked and we didn't focus so heavily on this like single-serve convenience. Everything has to be high-impact flavor. And so I felt like the food system was off track. And so I started to think about the name and decided that 8 Track Foods really worked because this 8 represented the image and the idea that I wanted to create, which was this infinite loop of sustainability. So it's one thing to focus only on the food that we create. And as a food scientist and product formulator, everyone's always like, I want it non-GMO. I want it organic. I want it plant-based. I want clean ingredients, but we, I put so much care into the food that we just eat that at the end, the day that product would be wrapped in, you know, heavily packaged, extremely plastic clamshells, you know, vacuum sealed and it kind of offset the impact that we're trying to, you know, accomplish by, you know, making an impact around climate change.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (04:40):

So the 8 Track Foods -- it's really the 8 is that infinite symbol of everything we do kind of feeds back into itself from the product, the packaging to how we source it, to how we produce it. And even the beans give nitrogen back into the soil, and our steel cans are infinitely recyclable because they're magnetic and they get picked up and most waste streams and can be reproduced over and over again, thus creating less waste.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (05:09):

Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I think it's amazing that you've zeroed in on that -- that steel is the easiest product to recycle, right. Because of the magnetism of it as opposed to using plastics or other materials. So was that hard for you to find a way to use that packaging? Was that a difficult challenge when you were starting your company, if you realized steel's where you wanted to go, was that difficult?

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (05:32):

I would say it wasn't necessarily a difficult challenge in getting the steel. I think communicating the benefits of steel is sometimes hard and helping consumers understand that there's a true value in using canned goods...

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (05:50):

[Do] you think some customers have an impression of what canned goods mean? Maybe it seems like -- from a post-war era and maybe we've moved beyond that, but you want to let people know that it's the future, not the past.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (06:04):

Yeah. I mean, there's so much value in [it] and there's so much food science in a can of beans, you know, the amount of technology that goes into it. I mean, it really changed our food system for everyone.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (06:17):

I mean, I can piggyback on that. I remember learning about, I don't know if this is it just kind of a little bit of lore and myth or if this is historical, but it seems like we really won the war in Europe because we could keep our boys fed on the front line because of the innovations of food canning and what that allowed our military to be able to do. And then we kind of rolled that out into the American food system after World War II. Is that accurate?

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (06:44):

That's so true. I mean, there's so much that we have been able to accomplish because of canned goods and just the process behind, you know, low acid and high acid foods and keeping our food supply, you know, safe longer. And, you know, a lot of that in driving people back to the pantry, it keeps our food, you know, collectively safe for a longer period of time, thus reducing food waste. And, you know, the more we can bring people back to the pantry, I always like to equate it to you can cook fresh meals from your pantry, and we as consumers think of cans as processed and heavily processed, but they're not necessarily. Like our beans are just organic beans, water, and sea salt. And if you think about it as cooking fresh meals -- maybe spaghetti, you pull out your dried pasta and your jar of sauce and you cook them, and all of a sudden you've made dinner. You've created this beautiful, fresh dinner. And so that's the kind of messaging that I hope to create around 8 Track Foods and driving people back to the pantry and hoping that they can cook more fresh meals with -- starting with our cans of beans.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (07:54):

Well, that's really cool. So we've got in, we've got the idea of infinity in the name, and we're gonna talk a little bit about the soils and what you alluded to with nitrogen and beans. And, but also, I guess, a little undertone of harkening back to an older era of the 8 track, right? People sitting down for dinner, eating a little slower pace of life, where it doesn't require single-use, throw away the packaging for every single meal, peel and eat and throw it away, peel and eat and throw it away. So that's really cool. So tell me about beans. First of all, why beans, why did you start with beans?

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (08:30):

So I think in our nation, we've really commoditized a lot of the pantry staples and products that we want to use. Those and beans are inherently this incredible powerhouse of a food. And in our society, we really just think of them as kind of the magical fruit and, you know, they have a bad rap. But when you look at what they can provide on so many levels, it's amazing. And as more consumers kind of go back to reducing meat consumption or, you know, giving up meat for a day, maybe flexitarian or "Meatless Mondays," I felt like beans were inherently the place to start around whole food, plant-based diets. And that's really what led me to start with beans. My background is in plant-based formulation, and I've done a lot of work in creating meat alternatives, like chicken nuggets, or, you know, burgers that bleed. But in reality, I think when we talk about plant-based diets, we've forgotten that whole food part of it. And that's really where beans play a critical role and their source. You know, I mean, the U.S. is a powerhouse for bean production and that's really coming back to that.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (09:53):

So one of the things that a lot of our listeners care deeply about is where their food comes from. So if, can you share a little bit about where are your beans sourced from and how did you go about finding farmers to grow beans for you?

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (10:06):

So, yeah, I mean, looking around where like the best regions where things are grown, our black beans and dark red kidney beans, the Michigan area is really, you know, up in the upper peninsula is a powerhouse for growing those. And knowing that we have to, you know, manage our supply chain and we saw a lot of that working with, you know, co-ops was the best option for us. Making sure that those farmers feeding into the co-ops were the best source for our products.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (10:36):

So you work with an organic co-op, is that right, from Northern Michigan? [I'm] sprinkling in a little farmer knowledge that I don't know, this may have factored in, but Northern Michigan -- I'm a big believer in using the land for what the land is the best for. Monoculture is so ridiculous because it takes, you know, a one size fits all agriculture approach, and we go do it everywhere in the U.S., but North Michigan has a much shorter growing season. So some of the longer season grains like corn, which America is addicted to corn, we're gonna have a harder time getting a good crop in Northern Michigan because they have a shorter growing season, but it's perfect for beans and beans are much less abusive to the soil as well. So I think it's really neat that you've found that simpatico relationship there. So, tell me what the organic label means to you? As a food scientist, how do you feel about the organic label and obviously you chose to source organically? So you're a certified organic product. Tell me why?

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (11:30):

So when I first started in the food industry, organic wasn't really government certified. And so I do understand kind of the detriment for smaller farmers and what that, you know, means in the, in the certification process and how lengthy it is and how it costs a lot of money. But now that we're, you know, a good 20 years into the USDA organic symbol, I feel like we've sort of pushed away from its value in some respects. So you see a lot more products right now just being like non-GMO or non-GMO project verified. And it seems to hold that same weight as organic, but the farming practices around organic are kind of lost in that mix. So it's not just that organic is non-GMO, it's that organic, you know, we're caring about the soil, we're caring about the whole farming process. And so for me, it's really important that it carries that label so that we can communicate to our consumers, that our farmers are putting in that extra level of care to the soil. It's not just, you know, putting a non-GMO claim on a bean. It is important for me to carry it. It isn't on the front of our can, but we do have it.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (12:38):

It's not on the front of your can, but you guys have a certified organic. Well, I think it's very valuable. We love that we've got certified organic producers on Market Wagon, and we have also those who, who can't get over that hurdle. You've found a group of farmers who, it sounds like not only carry the stamp, but also represent the true values that began the organic movement all the way back in the sixties and seventies with the Rodale Institute and original pioneers like that. So that's great. That's great. The care for the soil, I think is something that -- it always warms my heart. That's what matters the most.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (13:12):

It is. I mean, we're not going to have, I mean, we have to feed a lot of people. You're supposed to be 9.8 billion people by 2050. And so, you know, the more ways that we can figure out how to increase, you know, the land production and our packaging and our food, it all plays into this giant ecosystem to create the solution.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (13:32):

Yeah, well, so let's talk about that. Sustainability is another, is a key thing. We talked already about the recyclability of your packaging and this whole infinite loop feedback system. Right. So what are the challenges in today's business world of creating a truly sustainable product and business, as you have?

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (13:53):

Yeah, I think a lot of it comes from educated consumers. We have a lot of, especially around packaging, there's a lot of miscommunication. I think sometimes we look at a product and it's got all the flashy bulbs and it's saying non-GMO, no artificial ingredients. And so you're seeing all the, the flash, but then that's usually covering up some of less sustainable practices that are going on. And especially with packaging. I mean, there are so many things that consumers think are recyclable, that they aren't at all. Like for us in canned beans, everyone's like, oh, let's do pouch beans, but pouch beans, you know, are actually produced in a non-recyclable material. And so we think it's good for the environment and people understand that they think just because it has less waste that maybe it's less, so sustainability plays a heavy part in what we do, but I don't think people think about food as much as I do and how it's grown, how it's sourced and all the care. So explaining all of those little details that we've tried to accomplish to make this the most sustainable product is what's hard to differentiate ourselves, quote "on the shelf." You know, how, how did somebody know that right away?

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (15:16):

Well, we are here to help be a voice for you and tell your story. Connect you directly with consumers so they can understand more [about] what you do. Has it, have you found that customers on Market Wagon have engaged or, you know, you've been able to get your message out so that people really understand more about what 8 Track [Foods] is about and how sustainable the food is by having that direct connection with your customers?

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (15:40):

Absolutely. We love Market Wagon. What you've built is phenomenal, knowing that we can connect with our consumers is primarily the reason I started this was to bring back community. You can create products for the world, but having those customer connections, knowing that food is, you know, we're all food experts, we all inherently put, you know, this into our bodies and it's really important. So Market Wagon has allowed us to engage with our consumers, you know, right away. You know, if they ask a question, we can be responsive, we can tell our story in unique ways. And the other part of it too, is just, you know, connecting with other vendors and feeling like we're all in this together, rather than this is just, "what's your competitive set? Who are you trying to destroy?" Where it's more like let's all work together to create this movement towards a sustainable food system rather than I'm gonna win and how I'm gonna have the most money. And so that's truly the value of Market Wagon.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (16:47):

Well, that's, that's great. I mean, it sounds like both you and I have a background in grocery, in very different ways, but I can remember just the zero-sum game mentality of grocery that if I was gonna get shelf space, it meant somebody else didn't. And that's just not the way that it works on Market Wagon, which has been, which was a mission of mine from the beginning, you know, is to kind of eliminate some of that zero-sum game mentality. It's a huge market out there for food and local producers right now just have a lot of blue sky ahead.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (17:14):

I absolutely agree with that. Like, there is just a tremendous -- you know, even when I started, like the natural food industry was small and it was still, you know, independent grocers and people, you know, pushing their carts, you know, their strollers through the stores and, and we've lost that element of natural food industry. And I really feel like we're, we're starting to kind of circle back and go back to what it really means to have a natural food community.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (17:42):

We love that we get to build that community with you on Market Wagon. So Maggie, one of the things I wanna touch on here, because you've talked so much about sustainability, and I don't know if a lot of our listeners know, you are a proud supporter of a nonprofit called CleanHub. And I wanted to give you an opportunity to tell me and everybody listening a little bit more about that.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (18:04):

Yeah. So CleanHub, we really wanted to focus on -- it's one thing to have a sustainable product, but there's a lot of plastics being dumped into our oceans. We only recycle about 9% of the plastics -- 91% of plastic ends up in our oceans. And by partnering with CleanHub, we wanted to make sure we weren't just saying we didn't -- our messaging is plastic sucks, but we wanted to make sure that we made a social impact as well. And so we partnered with CleanHub who works with an all-female-led recycling organization, Tridi, to collect that waste and process it in a way that we can eliminate it from our oceans. Because we have these giant plastic barges floating around our oceans and CleanHub has been able to track that clean-up amount. And so it's very precise and a portion of our proceeds goes back to eliminating that plastic. And so far we've been able to fund over a ton of plastic, clean up from our ocean and so offsetting any plastic that we would ever create. And it's a great organization to start with.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (19:17):

Maggie. I, I thank you so much for the time we spent here. I, I wanna make one observation as we've talked. You, you mentioned earlier, you know that you're not a big fan of elimination diets. When we were talking about meat, we've talked about plant-based foods in this entire time, you've not talked about any negativity about protein farmers, animal protein. And then as we talk about plastics you're focused in on the positives of steel and of recycling, but recognizing we're gonna have plastics, how do we do it positively? I think what I really appreciate about this conversation and about your messages, it's so positive about the things that we should be doing rather than simply villainizing things we feel like we should not be doing. And, and I just wanna encourage you. That's an attractive message. And it's refreshing to talk to somebody in plant-based foods that have not cast someone like me, who raises beef and pork and chicken, as a villain. And I think that going back to your conversation about just this community that we have among the producers of Market Wagon that we're in this together. I think that's so key and I hope our listeners appreciate that as well.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (20:28):

That really warms my heart to hear, but I do think that there's a sliding scale. You know, there's people that produce meat ethically, there's people that produce meat unethically. And I think it's not just about what we don't do. We have to, you know, it's too much to try to do one thing, but if you, you could make one positive change, then we can all drive towards a greater goal.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (20:53):

We're in violent agreement about that. There is a right, and a wrong way to raise animal proteins, for sure. I just love the message of doing the positive things, not simply the negative message and I think that we could all learn a lot from that. So thanks for sharing a little bit about CleanHub. I think that's really interesting. I just want to be able to wrap up with giving you the opportunity, in addition to finding 8 Track Foods on Market Wagon, customers can find 8 Track Foods, follow you and get updates from you on our platform. Where else are they able to connect with you? How else can they find 8 Track Foods out there in the marketplace?

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (21:27):

Yeah. So you can check out our website at 8trackfoods.com or we have a pretty strong -- we have a strong social media presence on Instagram, and you can follow us for recipes there and some cool food science tips and things like that.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (21:42):

That's fantastic. So if you're looking for ways to reintroduce more plant-based proteins into your diet, and you want to learn from one of the world's leading experts on how to do it. 8TrackFoods.com and 8 Track Foods on social media, and also on Market Wagon. Maggie, this has been a delightful conversation. Thanks for joining me today.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (22:02):

Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (22:10):

Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than A Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market Wagon at MarketWagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More Than A Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, CastBox, PodChaser or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. Thank you for continuing to support local food.

 

Michael Kilpatrick, of ThrivingFarmerPodcast.com and GrowingFarmers.com, joins host Nick Carter to discuss farming, the organic label, and the dos and don'ts of starting your own farm.

 

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (00:04):

Welcome to More Than A Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon, focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and the CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmer's market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. And I look forward to crafting a generational quilt of farmer stories and experiences, the victories and challenges of individuals, families, and teams doing their part to help democratize food in America. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than A Mile, and thank you for buying local food. One critical step in making an investment in food for future generations.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (00:54):

Welcome to the More Than A Mile podcast. My guest today is Michael Kilpatrick, and this is a great way for me to return a favor because I was invited to be a guest on Michael's podcast a few months ago -- the Thriving Farmer podcast. Welcome to the show, Michael.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (01:08):

Hey, thanks for having me.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (01:09):

Yeah, thanks for coming. So tell me a little bit about how you got into farming to begin with. Did you grow up as a farmer? Are you new to it?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (01:19):

Yes, so I mean, like I've been always growing things like my parents have pictures when we were six years old in St. Louis with now some very, very poor, anemic tomato plants growing up the side of our condo. But then we moved to the Springfield, Massachusetts area, and my dad started a garden with us, you know. He started it cause he worked full time and wanted something that he could do with us in the evenings when he came home. So we had very sandy soil, which meant that things didn't really grow super well, but he brought in compost and got books. I remember the kid's Victory Garden book, which was one of the mainstays that we had. And actually my wife a couple of years ago got me a copy because it's really hard to find now, as a Christmas present.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (02:02):

So I've got a copy of one of those that book again. But we started gardening and the first year I want to grow cucumbers and carrots and obviously cucumbers are up within 24 hours pretty much, but carrots take like 10 to 15 days. And so we didn't think we were gonna get any, we tilled them under then like two months later we wondered what this weed was in the garden and it was the carrots. So yeah, we kind of started around with the kind of roundabout way with the gardening. And then when we moved to upstate New York in '99 we kind of really started diving a lot more. And then by 2004 we were doing it pretty much full time and it kinda grew from there.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (02:39):

Wow. And now you're in the Southwest Ohio area. Is your, is your dad still involved in the farm operation with you?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (02:47):

Yeah. No, my parents actually, so we left New York in 2015. Our company kind of, we kind of leased out the company, moved to Ohio to be with my wife's family. So my parents ended up staying in New York for a couple more years with the land and they weren't doing any active farming. They actually now live in Lynchburg, Virginia area and my mom actually has quite the garden down there -- but just for her own consumption. But we moved, we shut down that first farm to be near my wife's family. And then our current farm kind of ramped back up summer of 2021. So basically the summer, I mean, we were, we started boots on the ground last year, but a lot of it was infrastructure. But you know, between those, we always were growing something we know there was something, not something was always growing, you know, but it really the scale back to commercial farm with a, you know, a payroll and all of that kind of started again this year.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (03:44):

Very exciting. And you're also very active in just educating other farmers. I want to talk a little bit about your Thriving Farmer podcast and summits. What are some of the most interesting things that you've learned during conversations with the guests on your podcast?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (04:00):

Yeah, I think the big, a huge aspect of it is there's just not one way right way to farm. There's so many versions out there. You know, again, I come back from a very regenerative organic version of farming. So, we like to see soil, things grown in soil and some of the podcast guests I've had, let's say like Elaine Ingram and you know, she just talks so much detail about the importance of the soil and just like the microbiology and stuff that's going along with with all of that. But I think the thing with that is, is like, you know, we've interviewed again, hydroponic, we've interviewed animal farmers, we've interviewed value added people. We've been interviewed so many different people, but I've obviously through all of that comes these themes. Okay. And so the themes are one, one is you have to treat your farm like a business. If you don't, you're going to go bankrupt or you're just not going to know your numbers, not make a lot of money. And, and, you know, that's something that we are factitious about is we really, really deep dive into, you know, we know the numbers on all of our crops and we still grow some that don't quite make as much money cause you kind of have to, the customer looks for that. But I mean, I can tell you that cucumbers is one of our bigger moneymakers on the farm.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (05:13):

What are some of the things that you grow because the customer loves it that's just not really profitable for a farmer?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (05:18):

Yeah. That would be a sweet corn and strawberries. I mean, sweet corn, we really only did a little tiny bit this year just to kind of play around a little bit with it. Again for our farm stand, we bring it in from a couple of local folks. But strawberries again, we will not outsource that. That is something that we are very, very picky about--the varieties, the soil, when we plant them, we spent a small fortune this year on tips bringing those in, and then we root them in the greenhouse in September. And then they get planted the end of September, and then they go into the winter, and then we'll start doing the whole row cover dance. Starting at the first of, actually the last week of March, for literally three to four weeks. There's a row cover dance: on, off, on, off, trying to protect the blooms from the frost, but also allow the bees to pollinate.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (06:08):

But we're rewarded with a strawberry crop that's 10 days earlier than the competition. And the barriers are literally -- they're your grandma's berries, as people like to say, when they come. You know, they they'll buy two pints, they'll go sit in their car, they'll take one berry -- you can watch them -- we've got video footage of this, because we have video footage around the farm. But it was just funny, one day I was watching it, they took one berry and then they ate the rest of the pint. Then they got back out of their car and came back and bought four more pints. So, you know, that's, that's the kind of the, the quality we're looking for. There's just, you know, pull those customers back. And again, and again.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (06:43):

Yeah, these are not the same strawberries that you pick up at the grocery store.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (06:45):

No, no, they're not California strawberries that get shipped 3000 miles that are picked [when they are] white and the flavor is just not there. They get a little strawberry flavor, but there's not the juice. There's not the sweetness. There's not the melt in your mouth -- you know, it stains. Because those strawberries really won't stay in you and our strawberries do. And I think that's something important you gotta think about when it's really fresh. It's really incredible. Then there's going to be that, you know, that, that lasting effect.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (07:13):

Yeah. Sweet corn is another interesting one. We grow a lot of sweet corn too, but just like you said, it's, it's the least amount of dollars per square foot. How big is your farm there, Michael?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (07:22):

So we've got eight acres. We're an urban farm. So on one side it is train tracks and on two other sides it's houses. And then the fourth side is route 123 or Central Avenue, which our farm is named for. So yeah, we can't expand, although I did have conversation with today with someone who has got another acre there's that they are, you know, we're going to start talks about just giving us a little bit more, basically land to kind of work with. So but you know, I think going back to that aspect of, you know, the sweet corn, I mean like obviously your plant populations keep going up. So I think it used to be like 18,000, now we're about 24,000 plants to the acre. And, and the prices starting to go up, but consumers are willing to pay a lot more. I think that is one of the interesting things in the last couple of years is obviously you have those people, which, you know, $4 a dozen is all they're going to ever spend and they complain otherwise, but we were for a while, there selling a dollar an ear and people were not complaining. They were very willing to pay a price premium for an organic ear of corn.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (08:27):

No, you're right. The population has gone up we've we've tried the 20 to 24,000 population count. But what I've discovered is the ears are just much smaller and you end up with smaller ears and some customers pick through them or pick around them, because they're looking for, they have an expectation of a good 10 inch long ear that you can only get if you keep your populations down. And so it's an interesting calculus.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (08:48):

Yes. And so, but to the new consumer does the new consumer look for an 11 inch ear or is that someone, who again is again the...

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (08:57):

...is an old farm boy like me...

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (09:00):

Or, the 60 year old woman. We like to, I like, we like to say, okay, the only customers we've ever had problems with, the only ones that complain, are a 60 year old woman, unfortunately. I don't know why that is? I think that's just like they were stuck in that era of, you know, having to really, really be careful of every single penny and so that's why they're, and I said like, we're not, you know, we're not 1950s prices anymore. In 1965 does again, inflation has gotten the last year, inflation has skyrocketed. And so just for us, you know, we've had to raise prices throughout the year, just as we're like watching our supplies go up. And like our cost of shipping literally in the last month went up 30%. So yeah, it's, it's kind of scary on one aspect and just the aspect of how to communicate this to our customers and just say, "Hey, shipping has gone up 25%. We have to be able to start covering that."

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (09:49):

And you know, speaking of what the consumer is looking for, by the way, no offense to any 60 year old women who may be listening.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (09:58):

Yes, exactly. I'm not, I'm not, yeah. I'm not trying to point that. I'm just trying to say that seems to be that demographic. And again, to that point though, Nick, we're very, very careful and you have to be as know who those avatars to those ideal customers are. And again, we know the four or five people that are really good for our business and we need to be very careful to attract. And the people that, Hey, they're not, they're not our customer and that's fine. Again, those people, I'm not calling them out to say, I don't want the shop. They want to shop with us. That's fine. We can't cater to them. We will send them down the road to where it's the fruit stand. Now again, I'd like to say, you know, we're a farm stand, they're a fruit stand and where a fruit stand is where they're buying in from the local, you know, six states and, you know, offering that. And that's fine. Again, that's just where they are going to find the best place to shop. And our clientele is just going to be a little bit different.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (10:52):

Let's talk about, what's different about your farm because, I mean, I know that there's a lot. How you grow? And one of the first questions I have is are you, do you have the little USDA circle? Are you "organic," quote, unquote?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (11:04):

Yeah, not yet. I mean, there's obviously like all sorts of like good and bad around that. Obviously over the last decade, the USDA certified organic label has been like just threshed and just, basically, destroyed because they now allow hydroponics. Yeah. Yeah. They allow industrial organic with 24,000 cow dairy. You know, that's the kind of stuff where like, okay, no, we're not, that's not organic. And that's where I love the work that some of the regenerative folks are doing. The real organic folks are doing. They're doing some amazing work to kind of bring back the standards. We are not certified organic yet because we can't because our farm is too young. So literally 24 months ago they were pulling corn off our farm. And so we still have another year to go before we can get that certification. I mean, we could have certified our greenhouses, for like our transplants and stuff. We decided just to wait until we could do everything at once.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (11:59):

And just to educate any new listeners who are not really familiar with this. The certified organic label requires -- is it three years...

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (12:06):

Yes. 36 months.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (12:07):

...from the last time any kind of non-organic management had been taking place on the, on the land. So six years was in row crop from some row crop farmer who was certainly not organic as early as two years ago. It's just not available to you yet.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (12:21):

Yeah. So basically in 20 -- let's say 2019 -- we've got in 2019 in June, they sprayed 11 different herbicides trying to keep up with the weeds. So yeah, that's not great. So when we came together to really do a good job of putting lots of cover crops and lots of you know, slurries and stuff like beneficial microbe slurries to try to bring back the life to that. And we have, I mean, soil is looking really good. But yeah, I mean, so what we would say is we're regenerative. So lots of composts, we're using lots of prebiotics, mulches we are bringing in habitat strips for the beneficials. So again, we're not, you know, not, you know, it's not a wall to wall, just cropping, there's strips of willows and elderberries, and we're doing mushrooms in the woods. So again, we're trying to build this ecosystem here and it's really cool, Nick, because over the last 18 months we've watched the life come back. We now have regular hawks that hangout because we brought back the mice and the rabbits. We now have songbirds. I mean, you walk out in the evening, it's literally a cacophony of just tweeting and the music of the birds. So bats are back now. That's amazing to see too -- coming after the mosquitoes. So again, that aspect I feel like is what organic is truly about. And you know, not just this little circle as you called it earlier.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (13:41):

Yeah. Well, I mean, congratulations, and thank you for the way that you restored the land. I, I think that you deserve a lot of credit for that. We've, we've certainly seen how consumers really appreciate it. I wanted to ask you, what are your biggest, what's the biggest challenge right now for you to manage the land in a regenerative fashion, in what we might call sustainable -- there's a lot of keywords for this -- but in regenerative fashion what's the biggest challenge right now?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (14:06):

Yeah. I mean, obviously tillage is something that a lot of farmers have been talking about. And we want to do as little tillage as possible. Unfortunately, as you're converting from, let's say a row crop system, a lot of things you got to work through, you got get a lot of compaction, typically. You've got your soil, that's definitely like the nutrients aren't there. So it's a little bit of a couple of year process to really get that soil back and then you can start phasing out that tillage. And so that's one of the biggest things now we're worried about is, you know, how do we go to a lower no-till system? And obviously some things it's not possible. I mean, we do eight, almost 8,000 strawberry plants. And with 8,000 strawberry plants, you got to make beds and all of that. So it's just not -- and the labor scale is just not there --you know, to it's one thing to do a couple, a hundred foot rows, no till, and then, you know, sprinkle on the mulch.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (14:52):

But when you do 8,000 plants, that's a little bit different of a, of a, just a challenge to kind of do that properly. So you know, we're, we are doing till where we can, then we are moving to, you know, more of the more eco aspect of that. But I mean, over the year, we really only go through, you know, less than a hundred gallons of diesel. I mean, it's not that much that we're using to do what we need to do here to, you know, take care of the crops and, and literally save hundreds of hours. And one of the things we have chosen to do is we have chosen to mechanicalize. So we're using four wheel tractors to do cultivation, to move things around. You know, I'm in my mid thirties and, you know, I did, you know, for like, basically my last farm around 30 is when I stopped, but I already could feel my, my joints and things. So I don't want to get to another 10 years -- and, you know, like some of my other friends that have done empowered farm or market style farming is they have lost their -- they have major back issues. I don't want to see that. So we have chosen to do the mechanicalization so that, you know, at the end of, you know, when I'm 50 and 60, I can still enjoy life.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (15:57):

I don't think many people think about that aspect of sustainability. And nobody can see my air quotes in my hands, but that sustainability, the definition of it just simply means that you can keep -- you can sustain doing what you're doing. And if it's, you know, you out there for an eight hour shift with a hoe, yeah, no, you can't do that when you're 50, 60 years old. Not at all.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (16:20):

Yeah. It's a challenge. So, you know, that's sometimes, you know, we do get, you know, a flack for using, you know, geotextile fabrics and the biodegradable plastic, but I'm putting it back to you. It's like, look, we've run the numbers. We know what it takes for us to make a profit. And right now that's what it takes. You know, in five years we hope to be able to phase that kind of stuff out as we can start, you know some of our infrastructure is paid for, and we can afford to put more time and effort into actual production.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (16:50):

Well, one farmer to another, I'll tell you to avoid the the paper versions of those. The fiber ones.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (16:56):

Yeah. I've have heard those things are a little bit of a disaster sometimes.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (16:59):

Oh, completely we, we tried it on our, under our tomatoes this last year. And it was great until about mid June when it, I mean, the decomposition of those things was a little more accelerated than we wanted. And before you know, it, you've got, you've got weeds coming up through them and they're disintegrating and falling apart, but we had set everything up to be no till. So we couldn't get out there and do anything about it. It was a nightmare. So then you have, we're gonna try plastics this next year.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (17:24):

Yeah. Strips of paper blowing around and weeds everywhere...

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (17:28):

Yeah, yeah. And once it tears in one spot, it can make, like you said, blow up and then it actually starts ripping plants up with it. You know, it gets out in, you're running a parachute underneath your tomato vine. So avoid those, if you can, like, right. Here's your tip for the day.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (17:43):

So how, you know, as you're building a, that is not yet certified organic and you, you talk about the principles and how you want to grow. And there's really a lot of explanation about what makes your farm different. How do you get that message to the consumer? How are you able to connect with the consumer and let them understand why your sweet corn is different -- why your strawberries are different?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (18:08):

Well, I'm going to pull this up here because there is very specific ways we talk about this. Okay. We've got a little blurb as it were. So this is what we say. And obviously, because we sell on Market Wagon too, so we use that little blurb on there, "We love growing nutrient dense, safe food for you and your family. It's important to us that we eat what we grow. So that means we grow our food without harmful pesticides, herbicides, or fungicides to make sure our fruits, vegetables, mushrooms, and transplants are as good as they can be. We use compost, rock dusts, and prebiotics to fuel the soil, encourage beneficial insects, bees, and earthworm habitat and work with nature to produce the best food possible." So, you know, that's the longer version that we put everywhere. Obviously when people ask, they say, are you organic? And we'll be like, "well, we're in transition to organic. And we use beyond organic methods." That's the quick, dirty version. When, you know, someone's asking me, you know, face to face. And then obviously if they're on the farm, I can just point. And because we're such a small farm, I say, well, there's our compost piles. And here's where our beneficial insects hang out. And, you know, here's where our mushrooms are and the mushroom blocks fuel the compost, which then goes into the field. So that's kind of what we can do. And that's the fun aspect of giving people farm tours -- is to be able to walk them through the different areas of -- and show them -- the sustainability and how we're basically producing a superior product.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (19:30):

Speaking of Market Wagon. And, you know, obviously I live in a digital world. That's, that's kind of what we have staked everything on. And have you found that has been possible to create that same kind of relationship online, your consumers that maybe haven't been to the farm still have a relationship with you and understand what you're doing differently?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (19:49):

Yeah, it is a little more challenging because we can't, and it's really interesting because the market wagon folks, which, because the, your guys are getting is like a 14 counties you guys cover, which is a huge geographical area, is those people don't really want to come out to the farm. We've tried to lure them because we want to get some of the customer ratings for, we want to say, we get them out, then they can do a review of us so that you guys had that new thing, which is super cool, but we've actually had a hard time getting people to do that because they just don't want to come out to the farm. So what we do encourage is we try to push them to our Facebook page because that's how I really communicate. Obviously I do a lot of talking with my other businesses. I'm really comfortable on camera. So I do a lot of live videos on the farm, walking around, showing what's going on, talking about how we're doing it. And so that's where we really push people to, because I can get them there. We do it live so they can comment below and they can, they've asked a question. I can answer it right then and there. So that's kind of what we've done. And then obviously, you know what, they it on our email list too. We can send out emails and stuff through that as well. But Facebook, Instagram, I think is the strongest aspect. And again, I'm not a, I don't love social media just because of all the inherent challenges with it, but it is really one of the best ways for us to reach our people if they don't want to come out to the farm.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (21:09):

That's great. So speaking of your, you said you mentioned your other businesses you have done a lot to train, educate, and help other farmers to succeed. What, what piece of advice would you have for any new first-time farmers who want to get into the business?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (21:25):

Yeah, I think you don't dive, don't go out and spend $20,000 or hundreds of thousands of dollars and buy a farm and buy equipment and just start. If you are interested, pay down your debt. So I don't know to say, to get debt free, but having low outgoing is always going to be way, way, way more advantageous than, you know, just assign the dive in. You know, it's really sad. I've been watching a farmer out -- I forget where he is. He's a north of us, a couple of states north of us. But you know, he basically had limited success one year on his home property, decided to quit his job, start a very large farm operation. He had some weather challenges, but there was one line in his -- one line that he kind of put out there and is like, "we expected the farm to pay our expenses this year," -- in his first year of farming. I mean, like we're not even taking a salary from our farm. I mean, you know, we understand what it's like to build that first year aspect. So what I would say, get those outgoings down as low as possible, get a couple years on another farm -- go work for somebody, make some mistakes on their dollar, not yours. And then start small. Okay. Start really small -- quarter-acre, half-acre, And make sure, you know, what you want to do. Like if you work at a dairy farm for two years, you know that your apprenticeship you're going to probably do a much better job with the dairy than just saying, well, I'm going to do vegetables if you want. Yeah. So make sure you're stay in that lane and then just run your numbers, always be running your numbers. You know, we obviously, our pricing -- let's go back to Market Wagon, our pricing on Market Wagon. You guys obviously need a percentage because the whole platform you have to run and all the expenses you guys have. But we, so we don't actually mark up that percentage, the product, we mark up a fraction, a fraction of that, because we also know that we're not having them market that ourselves. So we have this, this formula we kind of use and that we know like, are there, you know and where we can play with that as well. So again, if you know your numbers, you can be incredibly competitive in the marketplace and know what's your competitive advantage. There's certain crops we know we can drop down low to pull new customers in. We know there's other crops we can't do that with. It's, you know, we just kind of have to stick with what we've got and it's just basically a service we're offering for those few customers that want that specific product.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (23:45):

Great. So it's basically, you have to be as good at running a business as you do at growing vegetables.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (23:51):

Oh, absolutely. You've got to be, as my mentor said, you've got to be, "first, you've got to be a marketer, then a business person, and finally a farmer."

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (24:01):

Yeah. We're just barely ahead of you on our own farm. We're in our third season and this'll be the first year that we've taken a salary.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (24:07):

Oh, wow. Well, that's good. Yeah. The year three is going to be taking a salary. Usually we see it between year three and year five.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (24:14):

Yeah. It's not a big one, but it's a salary.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (24:17):

That's good. Yes.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (24:18):

Yeah. Well, I really, this has been a fun conversation and I appreciate you giving us the time. I want to know. In addition to finding you on Market Wagon, which our listeners can connect with you there, where else can listeners connect with you and learn more about the enterprises that you have going?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (24:37):

Yeah. So, ThrivingFarmerPodcast.com. We have over 150 episodes now. Wide range of things -- GrowingFarmers.com. And then if you really just want to get like, inside my life and find out, you know, how busy I am, I'm now, you know, we have two businesses with employees. I'm now a councilman in our little city here of Carlisle, and I have three kids. Follow me on Facebook. I tend to put most of my content out there. So I know that that's not how you're supposed to do it, but yeah, if you really want to kind of follow the craziness that happens here, check that out.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (25:14):

All right, I'm going to be following you right now, Michael, if I haven't already. Michael Kilpatrick has been my guest today on More Than A Mile. And it's been a pleasure talking with you about farming, Michael.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (25:25):

All right. Thanks so much for having me.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (25:26):

Thanks for being here.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (25:33):

Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than A Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market Wagon at marketwagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More Than A Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, Castbox, Podchaser or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Thank you for continuing to support local food.

 

Nate Parks, of Silverthorn Farms in Rossville, Ind., joins host Nick Carter to talk about his farm and navigating both the good in the bad of decades of working the land the right way.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (00:04):

Welcome to More Than A Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon, focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and the CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmer's market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. And I look forward to crafting a generational quilt of farmer stories and experiences, the victories and challenges of individuals, families, and teams doing their part to help democratize food in America. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than A Mile, and thank you for buying local food. One critical step in making an investment in food for future generations.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (00:54):

My guest today is Nate Parks. And if you have bought local food anywhere in Indiana in the last decade, you've probably seen Nate or somebody from Silverthorn Farm. He has he's gone before me. He's been a pioneer in the local food movement around here. And several episodes ago, we talked about standing on the shoulders of giants and I would say Nate's one of those. So I'm really glad and honored to have you here, Nate. Thanks for having the time this morning to talk about farming with me.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (01:24):

Sure. Thanks, Nick. I appreciate it. That's what I love to talk about. Right. So it's pretty easy, pretty easy thing to do.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (01:31):

It should be easy for both of us. Right. It's just sit here and riff and and maybe we'll make a podcast out of it.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (01:37):

Yeah. See what happens, right? Yeah.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (01:40):

So you're in Clinton County and it seems like you've been there for a while or at least your wife has -- the information that I was given [says it was] 1864. Is that right? Is that when the farm started in your family?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (01:53):

Well, so yeah, so we, we moved here in 2013 under this farm. My, my wife's, I think it was five great-grandfathers back bought this property 1864. I started my farm and my family were farmers in Montgomery county. That's where I grew up and we actually started Silverthorn Farm in Darlington Montgomery county. It would have been 2005-2006.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (02:20):

Silverthorn [Farm] started over in Montgomery County. And then, you relocated?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (02:24):

But it was actually, we relocated here in 2013. Yeah. We started as Tranquil Ridge Farm in Montgomery County. We had a, our farm, I grew up on was on Sugar Creek, you know, and it was this awesome ridge above the, above the creek. So it was Tranquil Ridge Farm. When we moved here to Clinton County, there was no ridge to be tranquil on anymore, so we had to change it, you know? But my wife's grandfather, you know, the five generations back was William Silverthorn who established this place. And so when we moved here, it was like, let's, let's pay homage to what it really is. And the man who started the farm so many years ago, you know, and bring the Silverthorn name back because, really, the land had been, the land had been cash rented out for 40 years. Nobody in her family farms, you know?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (03:08):

Yeah. So, yeah, we've been here since 2013, so eight years now. It's been cool. It's been a good, it's been interesting, you know, it's definitely out of my home territory, but it was one of those when we, at that time in '13, when we moved, we were trying to grow and expand. And I was renting land in Montgomery County--where this was 120 acres that was available for us to use, her family, had wanted us to come take it over. And I couldn't buy that at that point in time, there was no way. So it was, it was a great opportunity we were lucky for.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (03:38):

Well, that's incredible. That's really cool. And I grew up in Howard County, that's where our family farm is at, so we're just one county over from Clinton County? I can attest there's no ridges there.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (03:50):

That's right. Yeah. We have to go to neighbors to find a sledding hill. 120 acres and the only sledding we can do is behind a tractor, you know?

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (03:58):

Yeah. I have more than one time. I've sledded off the top of either a mulch pile or, well, piles of other things.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (04:07):

That's right.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (04:10):

What does Silverthorn farm offer? What do you guys raise?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (04:14):

The definition has changed a lot over the years. Right. And honestly we're in another wild transition, just like we have been over the last 15 years, 16 years that I've been doing this. This year, we really, all we have is fruit trees and some hay ground. We shut down our vegetable operations in 2020--at the end of the 2020--which was a hard decision for us to make, but one that we had to do in order to you know, just as a family and financially survive. Thankfully we got through that and we're on the other end of it now and just kind of looking forward to see where do we fit in and how do we want to proceed? Still pretty open-ended questions for us at this point.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (05:00):

Well, a small world, but your hay is a pretty good hay, our goats are enjoying it. So I was up at, I was up in Nate's farm several months ago, loading a trailer full of hay. So you took 120 acres from your wife's family and didn't take it. But you, you took over the, that family farm and you said it individually has been cashed rented for decades prior. So conventional grain agriculture. What was it like to convert that back into raising real food? Was that difficult?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (05:32):

Yes and no, we were lucky. So 2012 was when we kinda made the decision that we were going to move here. And that was that drought year, you know, and the farm, the way it's kind of split up, there's a tree line down the center of the 120 [acres]. There's an east and west side. We originally took over the eastern side. And so 2012, I planted the whole thing to clovers and, and a lot of cover crop mix while we were still farming in Montgomery county. So then when we moved here in 13, it was, you know, we had a year of cover crop, but what we found when we got here was 1.2% organic matter and less on everything. It was, it was bad shape, really rough, you know, drainage was pretty poor. So it took a lot, it's taken a lot of time to, to fix it, but the benefit we had, we had 120 acres and generally I would produce around 30 acres of vegetables.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (06:24):

So I didn't need all the land in production. And it allowed me to have half of my land in cover crops every year and half of it in vegetable production. So I could flip flop and move those blocks around to really try to build back organic matter. And we're getting there, you know, we're improving. We're still not 2% on a lot of it. Our high tunnels, we've gotten up to 5%, you know, where we, we do a lot of the compost addition, but just with the cover crops and kind of the crop rotations out in the main fields, we have been able to see improvement, which is just, it's a long process to bring that back, you know, but all of a sudden, you know, probably two, three years in, we saw the earth warm activity come back. We saw the biological activity in the soil is really come back cause they were dead. I mean, there was nothing left do with soil. So when we took them over and really hard packed, you know, the, the they're classified as a silt loan, but they acted like a clay, you know, just, just really sticky. And you know, with no organic matter in there, you had nothing to stick. You had nothing to work with, you know? So it was really hard to work and, and hard to deal with, but we've kind of been able to with cover cropping and rotations, we've been able to pull out of that.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (07:29):

That's amazing. I can't imagine a less than 2% of organic matter. And for listeners who don't know what Nate and I are talking about, we would test soils every year, sometimes more than once a year. And you know, the majority of soil is, is sand, you know, tiny pieces of rock clay, but what your plants are going to eat is organic matter. It's going to be decomposing other plants--less than 2% of your soil was organic matter. That's incredible. And do you know what kind of production methods had been before? Was it high tillage before?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (08:06):

No, it was, it was actually 30 years--it was just 30 years of no-till corn and beans. So, in theory, that's their conventional wisdom is no till is going to rebuild organic matter and, and save some of that soil. And maybe it did. I mean, what would the result be? Would we be less than 1% if it was conventional tillage? I don't know. Yeah. You know, what, what would have been left? If it was conventional till it's, you know, we don't have that kind of information, but what I do know is that it certainly didn't seem beneficial in my eyes looking at it. And, you know, you look at the, probably back in the days of the prairies before this was farmed, we were probably 10 to 12% organic matter, you know, and it is a long, you know, you're talking, it, it takes a long time to build and a long time to degrade, right. I mean, it's not like you can go from 1% to 2% in a year that would just be, unless you just dumped so much organic matter on that piece of land, that it would increase. And that's what we did in the high tunnels. But, you know, a high tunnel is 3000 square foot compared to anchor at 43,000 square feet times 120. I mean, you don't have that much biomass, but in carbon, you know, it's all carbon, we're trying to put it.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (09:22):

Yeah. So you did a lot of cover cropping, like you said, and that's going to draw carbon out of the atmosphere and turn it into leaves, and those leaves are going to decompose the next year. Did you do any other additive things? Did you have any manure or did you bring in some of the organic matter off farm?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (09:38):

Yeah, we did a lot. We actually were lucky--the south border of my farm is the north border of the town of Rossville. And, and so they brought all their leaves to us. So, and all the recyclables, they run as a kind of a composting project within that town. And so they'll bring all that product out and I can use that leaf mold. And then obviously all of our vegetable waste, we would mix with that. And that was most of the compost we use. We also have a lot of the tree trimmers, local would bring a raw mill, you know, ramial wood chips. So we use a lot of the wood chips and several, you know, there's like the 4-H forage fairgrounds and Clinton County bring out their manure after the schools. So we took in a lot of products to be able to build. For several years we did do quite a bit of livestock, but it was, it was pasture-based stuff. So we never really had a big maneuver pack with built anywhere, you know? So so having that other compost was great, but we used it, you know, we didn't have enough to cover the whole area. You know, we'd just have to do kind of trouble spots and high tunnels, which is those high production areas that would really focus on with compost.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (10:42):

Yeah, 120 acres is a lot of area.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (10:44):

I mean, if you're really trying to make an impact yeah. And cover crops were the most economical way for me to kind of turn that around and make an impact backwards. And that's kind of why, you know, when we shut the vegetables down last fall I already was doing some hay and things on the farm anyway. And for me it was like, okay, the quickest, easiest thing for me to do right now is just put in alfalfas and clovers, let them lie and rest for a little bit. It's, it's, you know, it's going to be the least intensive thing I could do it to try to make sure we at least stay in a holding pattern as opposed to a degradation pattern of row crops, which may still be, you know, an optimum of every few years. Maybe we'll throw in some row crops. I don't know. You know, I don't know what that I would love to say it'll be vegetables again one of these days, but you know, right now, I don't know if that's going to be realistic, you know. Unfortunately.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (11:34):

2020 changed the world quite a bit, didn't it, Nate?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (11:38):

Yeah. You know, and for me, we had, you know, I kind of probably zigged when I should have zagged a few times. In [20]18, we shut down our CSA program, which we had had for 12 years. We were, you know, when we had our CSA in a 300, 350 range, it was a really economical thing for us to do. We had the, we had the scale to make it work. Cause we did it all custom pack and custom order. So there was a lot of labor involved in just the pack out. I mean, as you know, with Market Wagon, but I mean, it's the same kind of scenario we did just on our farm, you know? And so in [20]18 we dropped that because our restaurant sales had really built our wholesale sales. That's what we really went after. Ended up most of our, say about 85% of our sales, would go to restaurants.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (12:25):

And then that other 15% were just kind of made up in markets. You know, we had dropped out of markets and then in [20]18 we added the market back, drop the CSA to just kinda help us take a breath a little bit. It was a lot of, a lot of labor, a lot of work. And we had been working with Purdue on the final program of hemp since 2015. You know, we were one of two farms that were growing hemp in those early years. And so when [20]19 came around, we were finally able to to go full production and, and sell that crop. And you know, if anybody's fell down hemp saga, it was, it was a disaster, you know, and we ended up $150,000 in the hole at the end of the [20]19, you know, so we were scratching and clawing trying to get out of that at [20]19, you know, that kind of burned up my savings and my background, my, you know, my cash that we'd held back.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (13:14):

And then we roll into [20]20 with COVID. And like I said, 85% of my sales were the restaurants, you know, so all of the sudden that went from $25,000 a week in sales to our biggest week in 2020, it was $1,600 that week, you know, so it was it wiped us out, you know, and we had 10 people on payroll and you've got 30 acres of production on the ground. It was a nightmare, you know, so that was that was, that was how it happened. So, you know, you can't, you can't blame it all on 2020, there was things that happened ahead of it. And we were just in a really bad spot for 2020 to happen. Right. And so by the time that 2020 ended, we were just, there was a decision to be made. I mean, there was no, like I said, I'd spend all my cash, right.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (13:58):

You know, in [20]19 burned the cash reserves. In [20]20 we had our retail was up, which was great, but it was still only 15% of our end caps. So when you're, when you're dealing with the high payroll, we had the high production, we had the, the high output of costs. It was just, we had to, we had to, we had to stop somewhere, you know, there had to be a breaking point. And that's what we did. We sold all of our equipment. We you know, in October the girls who had--I had three sisters that worked for me for eight years, you know, they were my greenhouse manager, pack shed managers, and stuff like that. And they stopped in October and we just had to regroup, you know, and and take a look back. And, and thankfully we, you know, it was, we came out great and we were able to sustain ourselves in the farm still here. You know, I'm still here, we're still plenty of our equipment left. It's just the actual production part had to be, had to be over, you know.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (14:52):

They'll farm and find a way to survive.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (14:53):

So now, yeah. Yeah. And so now I've and, and I just before I was a farmer, I was a builder. I build a lot of houses and I kind of went back to that beginning of the year and was doing a lot of remodel work. And then a company in Rockville, Indiana was a Family Farm Fresh Co-Op, which is a lot of words to say, but it's a, it's a co-op of Amish growers is about 30 growers down there. And I've worked with them over the years on just production consultation, you know, just winter production on some of the greenhouse stuff that we did here. And then they called and asked if there was any way that I could come manage their sales and manage the production of all those farms. So I ended up, you know, kind of worked it out and now, so that's what I'm doing this year is helping them, you know, managing their production on that.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (15:40):

And so that's six or seven semi-loads of product a week going out to Chicago and Florida and all over the country on a, on a larger scale, right. It's Whole Foods and Fresh Tyme and, and big broker buyer which is interesting. It's a different world. It's, it's super similar to what I was doing with the restaurants. I mean, it's just a different buyer, you know, and instead of just my farm, it's 30 farms. And I get to manage all the production on that. And they're great growers right. And it's the organic food movement, which I still love to be a part of. So that that's been really been really good for me this year. And we'll see how that keeps going, but I get to be engaged in this community, which is, you know, in the end that's, what's important to me is making sure we keep trying to advance this organic local food movement, which is just it's so frustrating how difficult it is and just shouldn't be, you know,

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (16:34):

I know, I know.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (16:36):

Right?

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (16:38):

Yeah. Tell me about it. And yeah, these, these curve balls, you know, one of the things that our farms suffered from for a long time with program agriculture and the, the hemp disaster sounds like, you know, just another, another chapter in that book of, of program agriculture. But the other interesting thing is, you know, what you didn't ask for is the farms are like yours, any, any farmers, they scale up restaurants, the next logical place to scale up to who would have thought that, that entire market would be shut down for almost a whole year. And I just can't imagine.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (17:13):

And they're not back yet, you know, they, they suffered such financial loss. There's no blame to sit on them, right. I mean, what are we going to do? And now the, you know, I think they're still, you know, we saw of the 60 restaurants we were selling to the last, I can't remember now, who knows where they're at now that was 21 or 22, are just done completely, you know, they're not coming back. And the ones that are coming back are in such a fiscal problem, as far as financing, you know, they're still reeling from, from the cashflow loss. You know, they're a 10% margin business, you know, that's not a, that's not a massive margin they have. So, buying local food is, is really difficult for them now, you know, I think they'll come back. I hope they do. You know, I think they'll make a rebound, but it's not going to be a, it's going to be a while to rebuild that, you know?

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (18:02):

Yeah. I wanted to ask you about organic, the organic label. Correct me if I'm wrong, your farm is certified USDA organic, correct?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (18:12):

Correct. We, we dropped that certification this year just because I didn't have it. It was just hay, but that's how we've always been in the past. Yeah.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (18:21):

Yeah. So tell me why is the organic label important to you as a farmer? What's it, what's it represent?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (18:29):

It''s an interesting question. And it's a hard one to answer because a lot of ways it's not important to me. But in other way, it's important to our, to a customer base that we want to appeal to. At the end, why I finally certified after several years was cause I was tired of answering the questions. You know, you're not certified, so how do I know that you are? It's like, fine. Let's just certify the farm. Like, this is how I, this is how I produced. And so much of the time, you know, actually in the restaurant industry, organic's not important because I can't, they're not really selling organic foods through the restaurant industry. You know, the local food is what's important to them. But I just wanted to, it was important to me on that, that way of production in that way of life.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (19:13):

And so I just said, okay, let's just certify it. And now I don't have to keep answering these questions. And you know, are you certified? Are you not certified? Or how do you produce, like, let's just get the certification done. Everybody knows what I am and how I'm doing it now. It's just official. Nothing changed at all is how we always did it. It's just, now we have more expense, you know, and then we have a label to say, to say that we are, you know, if, if I was going in like the broader scale wholesale sales, like, like I'm dealing with a farm fresh co-op now it's super important. You know, if you're going to be dealing with that, that bigger scale of market, you have to have that certification to gain, to gain the benefit of those dollars, you know because certified organic kale compared to conventional kale, there's a massive price difference on the whole, when you're selling semi load locks, you know, I was never that big.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (20:05):

So it sounds like you, nothing changed. You were organic before organic was on your label. But just to make it easier to answer the question--to explain to consumers that you, yes, indeed grew the food the right way. Being able to put that sticker on made it easier.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (20:23):

Yeah, that was part of it. And the other part was like, let's, you know, if that's what we believe in, and that's what we're trying to do is support and push the organic movement. Then it's also important for me to have be a part of that certification that part of those statistics within our state and to say, yes, we do have that growing here and to try, you know, the more land that we have certified, the more people in that program, the more support we get from a state level coming backwards to the organic growers, right? If, if there was no organic growers certified in our state, then the state level legislation and even the extension services and everything else, there's not an incentive for them to be coming backwards to support the farms. Right. So, so at that level, you know, we, we did a lot of work with Purdue because we're super close, you know, we're a half hour from, from the campus.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (21:08):

So to have, for them to have a certified organic vegetable farm close--them and we always had, you know, 6, 8, 10 different research projects that we were able to coordinate with everybody--to Purdue, whether it's the etymology department or whatever department it is for them to do research. So it was important in that, in that respect to just get the support for all the other local farms in our area saying that there is, there is organic agriculture here and we do need to support, and it is, it's a real thing. Right? So that, that was probably more of a driving factor than anything else was just so that we could make sure that our voices are heard, you know. That's not oppposed to saying we do grow organically, you know? Well that, that doesn't do anything. You're still can't count it as a conventional grower on the anything USDA related. Right.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (21:54):

So what's your relationship with the USDA like today?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (21:56):

I don't know. I mean, that's super easy this year. I don't have any relationship with it. Right. I don't have to worry about any, any regulation or any certifications. It's pretty, pretty cozy. I just coast through now before it was, yeah, it was pretty...

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (22:13):

Do you think the organic movement is better being managed by the USDA over the last couple of decades then prior?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (22:20):

No, I don't. I mean, I think there's a lot of challenges. Yeah. I feel like, you know, there, there's all these questions around is hydroponic organic or not? You know, and the original USDA regulations were born product, you know, now we have, now there's all these debates on that. And, you know, I have plenty of views on it. And there's also, you know, when we look at pastured poultry and, and now, you know, a door opened on the side of a enclosed chicken barn is considered pasture ranged and organic. And is that really what the consumer thinks are certified organic eggs are? I don't think of it that I think of it as you know. So that those, those are such challenges. I don't know how you, you know, you get such big, you know, just like anything else. We have corporations that are going USDA organic, and they have bigger lobbies than us small farmers have.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (23:13):

So they get these exemptions on, on some things that I don't necessarily think that the consumer believes will be a USDA organic. And it's, it goes back to just the most important certification is, is buying local, knowing your farmer, in my opinion, you know, I mean, how else are you going to know how your food's produced? You're, you're just not, unless you know who it is and where it's coming from. And that's just, to me, that was always the most important thing for me is having that communication with whoever my buyer was, whether it was my, my chefs at all the restaurants or the smaller grocers that we had on their buyers, or if it was my CSA members or if it was the people at market, I just wanted to make sure they knew who we were. We're making sure our farm is open to them. They come see how we were producing and have that comfort level on your food. Otherwise, a USDA organic stamp. I don't know how much confidence can you have in, I don't know, you know?

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (24:06):

Yeah. Well, I share the same opinion. How much confidence can you have in a sticker that was handed out by a guy with a badge. Right. And I think that, I think, I don't know what you think, but I think the future of that organic certification is eroding because more and more consumers are having the wool pulled off of their eyes, you know, and, and realizing just what you said, that the lobby is big, the exception list is getting longer and longer, and there's still farmers like you and I that are doing it the right way, whether we're going to have a sticker or not.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (24:40):

Yeah. And you know, it's been the challenge for the couple of decades that I've been in this industry is reaching those customers who are, what are the 3-5% of our population who it's important to them where their food comes from and how it's raised. Unfortunately, I don't think that that number has grown a lot over the years. You know, we still have such a small percentage of the population that we're trying to reach, but I think still the, the most important messages is local and is know your farmer. I mean, just, just go connect with who's growing the food. I mean, that's, that's the best way that you're going to ever assure what you're really getting.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (25:16):

I agree. And that that's been--sounds like that was central to how you connected with the customers over the decade or more that you've been, you were farming the produce off of your farm. Now you're involved in a larger co-op and you mentioned that your customers with that co-op, that you're helping are wholesale to Whole Foods and other large grocers. Is it a challenge there to connect with the consumer and to maintain the value and the, and the crop? If there's not a direct connection to the consumer?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (25:50):

A hundred percent. Yeah. It's, you know, when you start to deal with these buyers and these bigger institutions, you're, you're one of many that are calling them every day, and emailing them every day, and trying to sell the same kind of product that everybody across the entire country is trying to sell to them. You know, they're, they're not interested in your story. They need to stamp that you're, you're certified organic. They need to stamp that your gap certified, and then I need you to have the best price available to them, you know?

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (26:20):

A couple of stickers and lower your price.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (26:23):

That's it. You know, and that's been a real challenge because I don't accept that. You know? And so my whole career has been, I'm going to set the price and you're going to buy it, or you're not. But this isn't the price I need for me to be successful growing this crop. And this is what I want. If you don't buy it, that's fine, but this is what I need to have out of it. And now I'm in a scenario where I have to accept the price that's given to this.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (26:50):

And that's the price that you need to to do it right by the land, right? If you want the soil to go from 1.2% organic matter and go up, and there are customers, like you said, small percentage that care about that soil and what you're doing to it, and what you're doing to the earth, this is what it costs to do it right.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (27:09):

And you know, now we've got to figure in labor costs. Holy cow, man, you know, the difference from 15 years ago to today on the, on the labor costs on anybody you want to bring on your farm to work is massive. That's a very big difference. And somehow we're supposed to keep the food costs the same. That's, that's a, that's a hard thing to understand how we're supposed to do that. Right. I mean, there's only so many efficiencies you can gain on the production side to where someone's got to give them, and these prices have to go up, but nobody wants to hear that. Right. I mean we want food cheaper and cheaper every, every year, which is not reality. Right. So, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a real challenge when you scale up to those levels of, you know, a thousand cases of kale a week is a lot of kale. That's, you know, 24,000 bunches of kale. You're, you're out a different, you're not, you're not you're not able to say this is what I want for for these bunches, you're having to kind of take what you can get so you can move that product. Cause it's not going to be good next week. Right? Definitely a challenge.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (28:07):

So Nate, you started farming a couple decades ago and it's been in your, your family's blood for a long time. What advice do you have for a new farmer? Someone who wants to get into farming today?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (28:20):

Well, that's a--it's a long list. I think it's what I've always said the most, you know, I've done, I've went to so many conferences and seminars and read so many books and all those things over the years and they're all good. But the most important thing is just finding a mentor. Finding somebody who's doing what you want to do. That's already in this industry and is succeeding and go tell them you will work for them. You don't care what you get paid, go out there on that farm and figure out what they're doing and to be successful because it's, it's, it's not as easy as reading a book and going and doing it right. You need to, you need to be a part of a farm and to see the entire operation, how it works and what all the, you know, what, what all do you have to do to make sure that you succeed?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (29:06):

And there's a lot of guys out there they're doing a really good job and they need help for sure. And you need their knowledge and the best knowledge that I get, and still today, I talk to talk to guys every week, you know, friends of mine that I've had for these decades that have been doing this, that are farmers and that we all lean on each other, you know, that's, that's going to be the most knowledge you get and the best information you get. And you've got to build that network of people within the industry. That's where you're going to learn the most. And so, find a mentor within this and whether they need them, they may not need you as a mentee, right. But go offer your help and be free and go out there and help them as much as you can so that you can learn what you need to learn to do it, you know, because it's a, it just takes doing it.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (29:52):

You know, you just gotta go. That's, that's, that's always been my thing to people was like, you know, read everything you can read, go to every conference that you can go to, absorb as much information as possible. But at the end of the day, get out on the farm and help somebody that's successful doing farming the way that you want your farm to be. You know, whether that's an acre or a quarter acre, or whether it's a hundred acres, whatever it is that you want your farm to be, there's somebody out there who's doing it successfully. Go find a way to help them and learn from them.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (30:23):

Who are those people for you when you were getting into it?

New Speaker (30:27):

It took me a long time to understand that that was important, but I didn't have that.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (30:34):

If you had that to do over again You'd take your own advice, right?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (30:36):

Do, as I say, not as I do type of thing. Right. And really honestly, you know, back then, there, there wasn't a lot happening, you know, there wasn't, there wasn't as many farms as we have today. I don't think. And, and I wasn't, I just, you know, when I started, so I grew up on a conventional corn and bean farm. It was kind of different cause it was back in 80s and 90s, so we really didn't have GMOs yet. So we still cultivated. And we did a lot, we had a hundred cows, cow/calf operation then, and, you know, a hundred thousand, we farrowed outside and there were about 800 acres of row crops and hay that we did. So it was real, super diversified. It gave me a great base of a vegetable farm, which is very diversified.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (31:15):

Right. And so when I started, I had, I was, I was able to, I always had this entrepreneurial spirit and I just have never really worried about risk. I have a pretty high tolerance for it. So I was able to just go at it and just fail until I succeeded. That took a lot more years than it needed to, you know, if I would have had, you know, if I would've had a mentor and I just, I had a lot of books or like, and then I just started meeting guys at the markets and or at the conferences and we all, you know, just kind of became friends and started leaning off of each other. But I think one of the, and I really wasn't a mentor, but there was Roxbury Farm out in New York. If you ever go to RoxburyFarm.com, they've got, they've got all their manuals on how they've been producing vegetables for probably 25 years in now and 2000 members CSA in New York.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (32:10):

And I just based my model off of everything that he had on that production manual, and man, that was huge. It really helped me, you know, and that was probably 6, 7, 8 years in. So actually when I moved to Rossville on this bigger scale, I was able to just come right here and implement everything that he had been doing on his farm from, you know, like all my blocks are 50 by 300, which is a third of an acre. And it's I was six-foot bed spacing. So it's eight beds on the block. It's all a third of an acre, so it's easy to rotate. There's a sod path in between every block. So my sprayer that I use for all my beneficials is 25 feet. So I go around every single block. I never had to drive into them, I could spray them all at a harvest conveyor that was 25 feet. So we could drive around every block and just harvest onto that conveyor and take it out. You know, if you're harvesting by hand, all you had to do is walk three or four blocks to the right or left. And you're on a road, you know, a path. So there's just little things like that that made such a big difference. Right? And then you have all the L.A. Coleman references and people and John Martin, or J.M. Fourtier or whatever, what's his last name? The market gardner, J.M?

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (33:28):

No idea. Can you tell that I didn't take the advice either? I don't know any of these people.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (33:36):

And that was all the greenhouse stuff, you know, cause I, I focused hard on greenhouses for a long time. You know, we were, we were four season production is what we focused on. We had an acre of greenhouse covered production, you know? And that was so cheesed for us. Not really, we didn't make a ton of money in the winter, but it kept my employees on full-time, you know, and that was, that was huge where I could pay my employees year round and I didn't have to use money that we made in the summer to keep them on, on winter. There there's always work. And that was always huge for us to keep rolling. So yeah, like I say, do, as I say, not as I do.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (34:10):

Yeah, same here. Well this has been really fun. I appreciate you taking the time to share your story. And I know I know that it's not the end of the story. I know there's a lot more that you're going to be doing in agriculture, in Indiana and in organics for the decades to come. As as we close out, if any of our listeners want to connect with you or support your farm, how can they do that?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (34:32):

Yeah. Website's Silverthorn-farm.com. You can always go there and there's, there's plenty of links there to connect with me, whether it's through our Facebook or my email is Nate@Silverthorn-farm.com. I'm always available there for any questions? If anybody has anything they want to reach out, I'm always available.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (34:49):

Awesome. Thanks, Nate.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (34:56):

Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than A Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market Wagon @marketwagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More Than A Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, Castbox, Podchaser, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Thank you for continuing to support local food.

 

 

Mike Hoopengardner, of Redbud Farm and Caprini Creamery (Spiceland, Ind.), joins host Nick Carter to discuss goat farms and growing pains for farmers.

 

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (00:04):

Welcome to More Than A Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon, focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and the CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmer's market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. And I look forward to crafting a generational quilt of farmers' stories and experiences, the victories and challenges of individuals, families, and teams doing their part to help democratize food in America. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than A Mile and thank you for buying local food. It's one critical step in making an investment in food for future generations.

 (00:54):

My guest today is Mike Hoopengardner, affectionately known as Hoop, by a lot of people in the local food movement. And I am really excited to have you here with me, Mike, because you were also with me in the very first-ever Market Wagon market day. Delivering, what if I recall was only 12 total customers and you might've brought one piece of goat cheese, but you were there from the beginning. Do you remember that?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (01:20):

Oh yeah. Oh yeah, no, we were glad to be part of it.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (01:24):

We were glad to have you. We were really glad to have you. I want to talk today about you and your journey into becoming a farmer and what the consumers that have supported your farm along the way have meant, but just to get going--So from what I know about you, you and Kristy, you're a professional stained glass solderer and Kristy is a PhD chemist.

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (01:53):

She's an immunologist.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (01:55):

So tell me, Mike, how does a stained glass window solderer and a PhD immunologist become farmers?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (02:04):

You purchase five acres, a couple goats and a couple llamas, and those coupled goats multiply rapidly. And then you're looking for, is there a way we can generate some income from this? And then at the same time, Christy was looking for an exit plan from Eli Lilly. So we were looking at a long-term exit plan and we leveraged every dollar we could find in our portfolio and bought 57 acres of nothing but corn and soybeans and started building a farm.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (02:51):

Wow. And when was that?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (02:53):

15 years ago now?

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (02:56):

15 years ago. So, 2006. That's a big bet. And tell me about, you said you bought corn and soy land and you turn that into a goat farm. So, you, you were farming or you were raising goats anyways, before you bought those 57 acres. Is that right?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (03:18):

Yeah, that's correct.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (03:19):

Where was that at those five acres?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (03:22):

In Fortville.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (03:23):

And today your farm is in Spiceland, Indiana. How far is that from Fortville?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (03:28):

About 20 minutes by car. About, we looked at it this way. Christy was commuting to downtown Indianapolis, and she would get off at the Greenfield exit and we moved that out one exit to the Knightstown exit. So about 12 miles more of driving on the freeway to Indianapolis.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (03:52):

Got it. So tell me about the transformation from corn and soy to a herd of, and you'll have to inform me how many goats now are living on these 57 acres?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (04:06):

We have a little over 200 goats and we're milking currently 72, twice a day. And as far as the transition, I was not a farmer, not even close, but I used a lot of resources that are available to us. The NRCS, Purdue Extension, the Soil and Water Conservation District. A lot of people that actually had expertise in farming assisted us, and that's part of what they do professionally. So we felt like we were in good hands. And boy, I'm proud. So proud of this place because we put in every fence post, over two miles of fence. I planted 50 acres of pasture grasses, which is a funny story because I planted them one day, $10,000 of seed. And knowing that it takes a week to 10 days to germinate at day three, I was out here on my hands and knees crawling around wondering if I wasted $10,000. And I did that every day and kind of wondered if at that point if I really should be farming or not, but no, we built everything. So we were the general contractors, designed and built everything with all of that assistance.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (05:42):

50 acres of pasture grass into what had been commodity grain production for, do you have any idea how long it had been in grain production?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (05:51):

From the time it was cleared from being a woods? So over a hundred years easily.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (05:59):

Wow. What--did it take a while for that--I know it probably took seven to 10 days to get the germination and you could see your seed spiking up. So, you know, you didn't throw $10,000 away to the wind, but then what was the production of the pasture like, to begin with? Did it take a while for you to build the soils up, to get you the kind of production that you need to support the now over 200 goats that are making their living off of the grass?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (06:26):

It did. And one of the advantages, Kristy and I decided to let those pastures grow two to three years before the animals ever saw them. So we did that early on that's one of the first things we did was planted that pasture grass so that we could get them established. As we're building the fence, as building the farms, building the barns, building the dairy, building the house--we worked really hard to get those established and we didn't fertilize that much. We basically added some compost and things, but we didn't go out and buy tons and tons of conventional fertilizer. We kind of let mother nature take its course. And in the process, we planted a number of warm-season grasses, which are deep-rooted grasses, knowing that we needed to break up the clay a little bit. And we were very methodical using--wouldn't, does this surprise you, using science to make it work.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (07:39):

And I know science plays a ton into your business especially in the dairy side of it. But how much of this did you learn from Purdue Extension and from your Soil and Water Conservation District and the NRCS programs. Was that your source of, at least primary data, to know how the science of soil works?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (08:01):

Yes. And then this was the fun day. I took my daughter to a Purdue forage day where they were talking about all of these new methods of foraging and growing and composting and all of this stuff. And I happened to sit next to an 80-year-old farmer from Southern Indiana. And he kept nudging me and he's like, "Hey, young man, we've been doing this for 200 years." So I started relying on the wisdom of old farmers because they've been doing it for so long. And people always tell me what's old is new. And it's like, it just keeps cycling round and round.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (08:48):

Yeah. We have similar stories even just in terms of nitrogen and its impact on the land. And, and my dad said, "Yeah, grandpa always told me if the pasture was getting a little anemic, he'd run chickens over it." Now he didn't know why he probably didn't even know what nitrogen was, but he knew what it did.

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (09:05):

Yeah. And our thing was this guy sat next to me. He's like, "Son, grow Clover, just grow Clover."

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (09:15):

Yep. Most people think of clover as a weed when they're looking at their lawn, they're out there, putting out weed and feed, trying to get rid of the broadleaves and clovers. One of the best things you can have mixed into your pasture.

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (09:26):

So you will see me out there every January with clover, frost seeding spots that are already marked and ready to go.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (09:36):

So today your pasture maintenance includes taking a look at what's producing where in the pasture, and then you mark spots and say, "Well, this one, this spot still needs a little bit more clover. This spot needs more of this or that?"

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (09:49):

Oh yeah. Have to.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (09:51):

I think a lot of people think that maintaining a pasture must be easy. It's just grass. We do it in our front yards all the time. But pasture is, as much of the crop is what you grow as the milk is. Wouldn't you say?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (10:07):

It's a huge key to the taste of our milk, which contributes to the taste of our cheese, which if we have a great forage like this year, it lowers the input because we don't have to feed near as much grain. It's Robert Zupancic who's our NRCS grazing specialist. He comes out every now and then. And he always pats me on the back and he says, "You're becoming a pretty good forage farmer." And I always take that as a huge compliment but being a forage farmer.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (10:47):

Yeah. We talked in our last episode about farmers, like you, Mike, you, you serve sort of an intercessory role. You are the steward between consumers and the land. You are the one mediating the relationship between the consumer of food and the soil that actually ultimately produces that, that food. It sounds like you're doing a pretty good job of it. Thanks for that. I want to talk about goats. So you chose goats. It sounds like a hobby evolved into a herd, huh?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (11:18):

Oh yeah. A big herd. No, when we chose goats, once again, going back to the science, we chose Nigerian Dwarf, which are small goats. They don't produce near as much milk as the larger breeds, but they produce the highest, milk fat. Cheese needs cream. You need fat in cheese. So that was the mainstay of that. And then we brought in Oberhaslis, which are a medium-size breed, also producing a higher milk fat with larger utters, larger capacity. And then we started crossbreeding the two of them. So we were trying to get the high milk fat and get more capacity, which that's essentially the way we built the milk side of the business, is one summer we delivered 233 kids in about a 60 day period of time. Go big or go home.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (12:26):

That's right. Now, the thing about dairy goats, it sounds like you were committed to dairy from the beginning, but unless I'm mistaken, there's not a commodity market for goat milk. So if you weren't able to sell it directly to consumers or in stores or building your own channels, is there anywhere that you could call up and say, "Hey, I've got a couple of hundred extra gallons of milk," and take a commodity price for it?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (12:53):

No.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (12:55):

So, and you laugh. So there's, there's no safety net. It's just go big or go home.

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (13:02):

Kristy and I have been married, it'll be 39 years in May, and we've always bet on ourselves. And we, we just, we knew this was a sound bet. At that point, when we had the board of health out here to look at our plans for the dairy, they all had smiles on their face. Cause nobody had built a goat dairy and cheese processing plant for goats in Indiana, since Judy Schad in the seventies.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (13:36):

So you had to build a product that people were going to consume in their kitchens because there wasn't a, there was nowhere further down the supply chain for you to send the milk where somebody else was going to do something with it. So right there on your farm, in your barn, you take the raw goat's milk straight from the goat and it leaves your farm packaged as ready-to-eat cheese. Is that right?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (14:04):

Yes. When Kristy and I looked at farming, we felt like the only way we were going to operate a small farm and make a living was to produce the value-added product here on the farm. I have, I love commodity guys. We depend on commodity guys for a lot of the things on our farm--boy, that to us that was too risky, especially on 57 acres. There's no way you can make that work. So we wanted a value-added product. One of the reasons we chose the goat cheese, Kristy's science background, and cheese just line up perfectly. And the other thing is the business side. And we never ever leave thinking about the business is, for every gallon of milk that we get, we get a pound and a half of goat cheese that we retail at the farmer's market for $24 to $30 a pound--I'm sorry, a gallon. So if you have $24 to $30 for every gallon, suddenly it becomes, "Okay, we can make this work." And then it's all up to scale. You know, you just got to scale up to where you're paying your bills.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (15:28):

Yeah. There's a lot of investment and risk in that. I mean, you had to build a milking parlor and then the cheese room and I'm sure quite a bit of other infrastructure. What was your biggest challenge getting started?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (15:43):

Knowledge, lack of knowledge, after we'd been milking goats and making cheese for about 10 and a half years now, we are so much better now at everything because we've built that base of knowledge and understanding and made a lot of errors. But that was the thing--let's Google "build a goat farm," and there's nothing. That's gonna give you information that we needed to make this happen. There's no, right now there's one reference guide, but even, like cheesemaking, Kristy uses a textbook from the 1970s, so it's just, it's not there.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (16:35):

Yeah. You're not going to find it on Google, but I do think Mike, you're being a little modest. You said that you're much better today than you were then. But, and this isn't just my words. I think some large institutions have deemed you one of the best, right? You've won awards, you've got national acclaim or even international acclaim. I'm going to give you a chance here--I want you to brag a little bit. Tell me a little bit about what the world says about your cheese.

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (16:59):

Well, we were voted, or we went to a cheese competition at the American Cheese Society National Convention, and our goat milk feta was named the best goat milk feta in the United States. And that was in 2019, and they haven't had anything since then. So we haven't entered any competitions at this point, other than that. But I think the thing that we look at is who buys our cheese and we're in some of the best restaurants in the Indianapolis area. St. Elmo's, Harry and Izzy's, the Patachou Group, the Cunningham Group. We have so many of the top chefs in Indianapolis that will stop by the farmers market or come out to the farm or visit with Kristy on the phone about how our cheeses are doing and what they like about our cheeses. So to us, you know, as much as winning awards is cool, and to Kristy, it's not cool at all. She could care less if we win awards, but it's important that the chefs that have that unique taste really love our cheese and they do so that's award enough for us.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (18:28):

That's really cool. Well, congratulations on both the external award and also all the tiny awards you get every single week when chefs call you up in order again, and again and again, for the last 11 years. You've built an amazing product and an amazing farm. I want to touch a little bit just about what your weeks look like today. What does a typical week for Mike Hoopengardner look like as a farmer, now 11 years into this?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (18:58):

You really want to know? Every morning my alarm goes off on my phone, hopefully, it's sitting near me, at 3:31 in the morning. And I value that one minute, so that's why it's 3:31--that's a valuable minute of sleep for me. And I'm in the barn by between 4 and 4:30 in the morning, doing chores, watering, getting the milking parlor prepped, and ready to go. And then it's run 72 goats up to the milking parlor, milk them, and get them back out to the pasture where they can enjoy some of this beautiful weather we're having today. And then I'm filtering the milk, putting it into the bulk tank to refrigerate it, and then cleaning up. So I have to clean, do dishes, seven days a week, twice a day. And I'm usually done by about 9 o'clock in the morning. So 4 to 4:30 to 9 o'clock chores and milking in the morning. From 9 to about 1:30 in the afternoon is my time to work on the farm.

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (20:15):

So today I was building a loft in one of the barns. So I was out there framing up a loft, running errands, picking up feed, whatever needs to be done. And then at 1:30, that whole cycle starts over again where we do chores, get the milking parlor ready, we milk. And then I'm in the parlor until roughly 5 - 5:30 every day. And that's just my side of the farm. That's just the farm side. Kristy will spend a little bit of time with me in the morning and the afternoon helping with milking, doing some filtering. And then she spends the rest of her day making cheese. So she's pasteurizing milk, she's separating curds and whey. She's draining, she's packaging. She hand mixes all the cheeses and we do this seven days a week. So there's no, there's no day off. Cause they've gotta be milked twice a day, every day.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (21:26):

Did you know that when you got into this, did anybody sit you down, did one of those old 80-year-old farmers sit you down and say, "Son, let me tell you what milking, what a dairy farmer life is like," as opposed to either even meat or other kinds of animal livestock?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (21:43):

Yeah. But you know, I was closer to your age then. So I was like, "Piece of cake. I can do that." Now that I'm 62, it's like, "Ah, you know, wait a minute. This is a lot of work." So yeah, we did. But and to be honest with you, we, we believed in ourselves and believed that we could be this big. I don't think we really planned for it properly. I don't think that we were, I don't think we're still ready to the scale that we're at now and the scale that we could potentially be.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (22:25):

Well even us young bucks have a little bit of wisdom, Mike. When I was thinking about starting my farm, having grown up on a dairy, knowing exactly what you just described, it was the furthest thing from my mind. So I got to tell you, you're a harder working guy than I am, and you're more willing to take it because dairy was off the, off the table for me. But it is amazing what you've built. And it's interesting. You say you are, you still think that there's a lot of blue sky ahead?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (22:55):

We could triple in size if we choose to. We easily could triple in size.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (23:02):

The demand is there. And you now have the master of your own destiny. How much do you want to work? How big do you want to make it? And it sounds like you and Kristy are enjoying life right now.

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (23:16):

We are, we're tired. We're, we're gonna take this winter and kinda evaluate things and come up with a short term, long term, medium-term plans. And you know, some of the struggles I know small businesses are having everywhere is the lack of employees. And we've hit that wall. Trying to hire people for the farm is a struggle. And either we've got to figure out a way to overcome that struggle or we can't grow because we physically, at this point, cannot do any more than we're doing right now.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (23:56):

So if anybody's listening, and everything that might describe to you is idyllic and you want to be a part of it, Mike, how can they get in touch with you to figure out if, if one of our listeners could become a farmhand, even one or two days a week,

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (24:11):

CapriniCreamery.com. Caprini is "baby goat" in Italian. CapriniCreamery.com.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (24:22):

There you go. Well, hopefully, we can find you some farmhands because it is great work and it is incredibly rewarding. And something that very few people have the opportunity to experience anymore. So hopefully we can do that. What advice do you have for young farmers or first-time farmers who may be thinking about turning their own little five-acre and couple of goat hobby into a dairy, or anything similar?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (24:51):

Don't forget. There's a bottom line. As weird as that sounds everybody wants to turn their hobby into a business. Well, part of the definition of running a business is making money. So I think a lot of people fall into that romantic vision of turning their hobby into making money. And you gotta be cold when it comes to making money. You've got to, you gotta make hard decisions. So that's always what I tell young people. It's like, you know, it's great that you want to be whatever it is, grass-fed, organic, this, that, the other thing. But at the end of the day, does it pay your bills? And if it doesn't pay your bills, you're going to be frustrated, angry, and you're going to quit. So remember the bottom line.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (25:53):

And wanting to quit, that plays into the definition of sustainability. There's a lot of people that toss out the word sustainability. We had a conversation years ago with Purdue about, "Well, what is the definition of a sustainable farm?" And I said, "That you could keep doing it." That's the definition of sustainability. So if you're not making any money at it, the next generation is not going to pick it up and it's not going to continue. Well, Mike, I know that our listeners can support you on MarketWagon.com, but you're also, you're out there. You mentioned a lot of restaurants. You mentioned farmers markets. How can people connect with you and where can we find your amazing award-winning cheese?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (26:35):

We are very fortunate that we have Ideal Food Group as our distributor. So you can find us in Moody's Butcher Shops, Joe's Butcher Shop, Traders Point Creamery--which, Traders Point I'm going to go sideways a little, but Traders Point was the very first place that took our cheese in retail. And the way it happened was, was kind of neat. We were not yet ready to open. We've had the board of health out, they've seen and approved our equipment. Traders Point Creamery's temperature probe, that they have to have to make cheese, failed one day as the board of health inspector was there, which is your worst nightmare. And the board of health inspector said, "Hey, Caprini is not using theirs for about three weeks. Why don't you call them and see if you can send somebody out and unwire it and bring it over here and hook it up?"

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (27:42):

And they did. And Kristy was very leery of--never used before, you know--I haven't even used it yet and I'm loaning it out. And, but it went to Traders Point and they used it. And then Jane and Fritz, when they first saw that what we had done and helped them out. They're like, "When you guys make cheese, come see us." So we had cheese, we took it over there and they're like, "We would love to have you in our store. This is wonderful cheese." And do you know that gave us such a name in the marketplace that we could throw out to everybody. So who else carries your cheese? Traders Point Creamery. "Oh my gosh, really? They make award-winning cheese there," and it gave us such credibility in the market. So I always give them just a huge shout-out because they took care of us, but Traders Point, Good Earth, you can find us at Amelia's Bread in both of their locations. You can find our cheeses a lot of places. You can go to CapriniCreamery.com and we have a somewhat updated list of locations. And you can find us [in] specialty shops. We haven't reached out and got into the big stores.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (29:02):

Well, Mike, I'm glad that you mentioned the value that having an established name in the marketplace, throwing their support behind you, and what that can have to get the momentum going because you were able to do the exact same thing for us. Bring this full circle for Market Wagon, getting, going, Hey, we have an idea for an online farmers market. And we want to get this going. And there were a lot of food producers on the sidelines and Mike Hoopengardner was in. And I know that meant a lot to us getting going. And here we are today almost six years from that point. And sounds like, sounds like we owe you a debt of gratitude as well. So I'm really glad to have you here on the show today as our first guest and talking about your farm. Is there anything else that I haven't asked you that you'd like to be able to talk about?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (29:55):

Just a couple things. The one thing is you, we talked about gratitude. We, we have so much gratitude for Market Wagon because a year and a half ago, 70 to 80% of our business was restaurant business. And the government decided we weren't going to open restaurants for a while, and restaurants shut down and we literally, you have to milk goats, you have to make cheese, there's no stopping. And we were making for about three weeks, we were making cheese, not knowing where it was gonna end up. Just kind of keeping some faith and knowing we could figure stuff out. And then suddenly this place called Market Wagon went from 200 to 300 orders a week to, "Hey, we're, we're so far at capacity, we're going to go to a second day. We're going to do Tuesdays and Thursdays." And I kept seeing these sponsored Facebook posts with my ugly mug on there, milk and goats.

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (31:12):

And I'm like, you know--and it made a huge difference. And I use that example when I would do deliveries and I would talk to people, people that had stores, people that had, for instance, Charlie down at Amelia's, they turned their bakery and restaurant into a bodega grocery store, all online, and Market Wagon, Green Bean, these online marketplaces set an example that it's very cool. It's become the standard now. And if you have a store, you have an online presence where you're selling things and people can pick them up. So I wanted to tell you guys, thank you. And I know we've done that privately a number of times. We just appreciate the effort. And I do remember this, Ryan made a Facebook post right about the start of the pandemic. And he was kinda, I don't know if he was throwing shade at the government or what, you know, what he was doing.

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (32:26):

And I just responded, "Ryan, you just got to figure out how to get my cheese into people's houses," and you guys did. So we really appreciate that. So that's the first thing. And I'm sorry, now I'm on the soapbox. So here we go. Farmers needed this outlet of Market Wagon. A farmers market is--for some people they're going to make somewhat of a living, but I think most people have realized, in our business, in the farming side, I'm not going to have a home run, one place I'm going to sell all of my cheese to. It's gotta be a balanced, diversified distribution group and Market Wagon has become one of those huge cogs in our big wheel that makes ends meet at the end of the day. And I know that's true for a lot of farmers. They have an avenue now where they can sell stuff over winter, where their winter market may shut down. I see them on Thursdays they're there packing bags. So both of those things. Thank you. We appreciate it.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (33:50):

Well, thank you. It only works because it works for both of us and I'm glad that it works for you, and I'm really glad to have your amazing products on Market Wagon. So thanks for being with us from the beginning.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (34:10):

Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than A Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market Wagon at MarketWagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us at @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoy More Than A Mile, please rate the podcast and leave a review on iTunes, Castbox, Podchaser or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Thank you for continuing to support local food.

 

More Than a Mile's introductory podcast is about local food and the farmers and artisans that produce and provide to their local communities. Nick Carter is the host of the More Than A Mile podcast and is the co-founder and CEO of Market Wagon, an online farmers market. 

Episode 1 Transcript

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (00:04):

Welcome to More Than A Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon, focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and the CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmer's market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. And I look forward to crafting a generational quilt of farmers' stories and experiences, the victories and challenges of individuals, families, and teams doing their part to help democratize food in America. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than A Mile, and thank you for buying local food. It's one critical step in making an investment in food for future generations.

(00:54):

Well, my name's Nick, welcome to the More Than A Mile podcast. I'm your host. And normally I will be joined here by some of the esteemed farmers and food artisans, the food producers that really make local food, what it is. But today, just for a brief moment, I want to lay the foundation and let you know why we decided to launch this podcast and I'm gonna share a little bit about my background, how local food is important to me and why I think also it's important to everybody. As a matter of fact, I think it's so important that I wrote a book about it, and I gotta be honest. There's nothing more self-aggrandizing than self-publishing a book. Well, perhaps, self-publishing your own podcast about the book that yoU.S.elf-published. So I'm well aware of that. And let me just say that the point of this podcast is not about me and what I really look forward to is bringing onto the show, those people that I admire, respect, and have been spending my career to try and build a marketplace and a world where their small farms, their small food, businesses can thrive.

 (02:02):

That's what this is all about. I want to let you know how I came to this mission in my career, why it's important to me. And I think it'll resonate with why you have tuned into a podcast about local food. So I wrote this book More Than A Mile, and it's a play on words, right? The question we were asking is what's important about local food and the answer is that it's more than just measuring it in miles. As I was in my late twenties and early thirties, trying to figure out how we could create a business that was viable on our own family farm. That seemed to be slipping away. I knew that the local food movement was our only chance we weren't going to get big. Let's talk about getting big or getting out a little later in the podcast today, including some historical soundbites that I'm going to reflect on.

(02:54):

And so I had to I had to make it into the local food movement. Well, the first question I wanted to ask is a little, what does that mean? How far away am I allowed to sell the stuff that we grow? And what I discovered is that there was very little by way of kind of an orthodoxy of local food that all of its adherence could faithfully commit to and celebrate. Or I guess excommunicate the heretics because people who love local food, its most loyal adherence may be drinking fair trade coffee sourced from Columbia. They'd certainly eat chocolate. And on the flip side of the coin, people that live in Arkansas probably aren't buying Tyson chicken just because it's quote unquote local to them. So there must be something else, something more elemental in this idea of local food that we were really grasping for, that we were looking for as food consumers in the U.S. and I wanted to try and unpack that.

Historic Soundbite: Wendell Berry (July 1974) (03:52):

"I also remember that at the same time in Washington, the word on farming was get big or get out a policy that is still in effect. The only difference here is in method. The force used by the communists was military, with us it has been economic, a free market in which the freest were the richest, the attitudes were equally cruel. And I believe that in the long run, the results will be equally damaging, not just to the concerns and values of the human spirit, but to the practical possibilities of survival. And so those who could not get big have got out, not just in my community, but in farm communities all over the country."

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (04:37):

That was Wendell Berry. He's an incredibly influential author in the local food movement and in my life in particular. And I have to admit as I write a book and as I venture in this career in local food, I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. There's many who have gone before me, Michael Paul and Joel Salitan, Wendell Berry, and others. And I really want to zero in on Wendell Berry's work because what's interesting about his work over and against the others who have written about and pontificated on local food, and the state of our current food supply, Wendell was contemporary in the seventies and eighties, as these transformations were taking place, he was able to see then what would happen if America didn't turn away? And he was right. That is a level of prescience, of almost a prophetic power to be able to stand and warn about the future.

 (05:27):

And if only we had listened, if only we had listened to Wendell and where Wendell was standing in the moment in the seventies, when, when that audio clip you just heard was, was recorded, he was standing up against the most influential person, arguably in the history of American agriculture who has really shaped American agriculture the way it is today. And his name is Earl Butz. Earl Butz was the Nixon era director of USDA, the United States Department of Agriculture. And he fancies himself the hero of American food supply. But what many of us have understood is that he's anything but.

Historical Soundbite: Marshall Martin (Feb 1993) (06:07):

"And then 1980s came along and times are difficult and many family farms faced foreclosure and bankruptcy. And there's still some today who, who claim that they're suffering from overexpansion. So I guess my question for you is Dr. Butz, first of all, did you say that, that the farmers are to plant fence row to fence row? And in retrospect, was that good advice?"

Historical Soundbite: Earl Butz (Feb. 1993) (06:26):

"I probably said it. I said a lot of things when I was secretary and I expect, I did say it, but it was the market who dictated that farmers plant fence row to fence row. Prices were up, exports were good. And the market dictated expand your production. They not only planted fence row to fence row, they tore out the fence rows. I can't even find the fence rows out there now, I guess that's because of large tractors and large combines. But be that as it may, but Marshall, if you don't produce it, you can't sell it. And if you have this program, we've had for years of curtailing production and telling the rest of where we're going to cut back and we're going to raise prices and cut back. That's not the way you expand markets. What we've done in our program around here is we've got our, we've put our prices up here with our price supports and then we've curtailed our production and paid our farmers not to produce.

 (07:11):

We sent a signal to the rest of the world that, that we're not going to be a reliable supplier. We sent a signal to the rest of the world that we're going to cut back on production. We got high price and we sent a signal. You expand your production on your marginal acres and your fragile land. And then just undersell the U.S. by a few dollars a ton, which is precisely what they do. They made us the residual salesman in the world's marketplace. Undersell us $10 a ton until you empty your bins in your warehouses. And then the world can take what they need from the U.S. and that's the position we've gotten ourselves into so that now we've got to heavily subsidize our exports to dig out of the pit that we've dug ourselves into."

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (07:50):

As a kid growing up on the farm, we spent our summers; spring, summer, and fall, producing food. We spent our winters clearing fence rows, pulling trees down, pulling out old fences and combining and joining fields together to make fields bigger and bigger and bigger so that we can produce more grain. Butz's vision for the U.S. was compelling. It was strong, and you got to hand it to the guy. He pulled it off. His vision was that the United States would become the world leader in grain exports. And in order to do that, he had to activate farms to produce as much grain as humanly possible--farm, quote, "fence row to fence row." That's what we were trying to do. The next quote was to "get big or get out" in order to be the most efficient grain producing nation. We had to be large, massively efficient grain farms all throughout the Midwest and central plain states.

(08:44):

We were going to export to the world, corn, soybeans, and wheat, in such supplies that nobody else would bother to grow it. We would dominate the market. Well, this was a great strategic play, especially in the Cold War era, when the Soviets controlled most of the world's oil supply, maybe we could control the grain supply. What happened though is that that market never really materialized. And while farms like mine, where we grew up originally raising livestock, feeding the grain that we raised to that livestock. And what we said was we walked most of our grain off the farm. We were a ecosystem unto ourselves. The manure went back to the fields and it produced more grain the following year. Just enough grain to feed our livestock, which were also raising alfalfa. And they were grazing. Instead, we became a specialized farm. We were contributing to the United States, food supply, corn and soy, but the world that Earl Butz saw as the customer for that, they didn't need it in the same quantity that we were able to produce.

(09:49):

So what do you do when you have heaping mountains of corn and soy piling up and grain elevators and in store houses and in the U.S. reserves of grain? Well, you release it into the market in new ways, making cheap livestock feed. There's a lot of plots, and many subplots, in the food movement in the U.S. but the overarching plot really has been our obsession and specialization for producing grain. Other things that matriculate out of that are, for example, our desire for pasture-raised or grass fed beef. Well, what's that a reaction against, well, in the seventies and eighties, it became more economical to simply confine your animals and feed them nothing but corn and soy, because well, all that corn and soy had nowhere to go. So it became very inexpensive to buy pure grain feed regimens. And we turned cattle, hogs, and eventually poultry into confined animals. Today, when you see a reaction against CAFOs (Confined Animal Feeding Operations), the real root cause of all of that was a massive overproduction of grain produced for Earl Butz's vision of feeding the world. But in the end, the world didn't need our grain that much."

Historical Soundbite: Iowa PBS (Sep. 2013) (11:07):

"In 1973, President Nixon's secretary of agriculture, Earl Butz, responded by calling upon American farmers to plant fence row to fence row. And he told them to get big or get out. Producers took his words to heart and the race to feed the world was on."

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (11:26):

Earl Butz, fancied himself as the hero of American agriculture. And in many ways what he did was astounding. It was had a deep impact. That's for sure the echo effects of this bubble of grain supply are still here today. We spent most of the seventies, eighties, and nineties building confined animal feeding operations. But even at that, we couldn't consume all of the grain that these specialized Midwestern farmers were producing. Next, if you recall, ethanol became a big thing and even bio-diesel, what else can we do with this corn and soy? Well, maybe we can burn it in our cars? But as recently, as about a decade ago, we hit what's called the ethanol blend wall. We are blending more ethanol than we can use into our petrol fuels in the U.S. And so we had to come up with somewhere else to put it, and the next place ended up being dairy.

 (12:15):

About five years ago, we started to see reports that we had been over producing milk in the U.S. and dairy was being dumped. Milk is now being applied to fields as a nitrogen fertilizer and where we stand today, we've pushed this bubble all the way to the end. And we are sitting in the U.S. on billions of pounds of excess cheese, because we've pushed the grain to the dairy, to the milk, to the cheese, and we have more than we possibly need. So how does that lead us to the original question of local food? What is local food? Is it really just a matter of distance? Well, the distance from you to where the food came from, it doesn't solve any of these issues of overusing the land for grain, specializing farms, putting animals into confined feeding operations. What we really mean by local food.

(13:10):

If we boiled it down is relationship. We want somebody to be local near to us, not just by the miles that I can drive to the place of production, but I'm looking for somebody who I can relate to that's producing my food and that person, the local food producer, stands not just as a relationship to me as a consumer, but they stand in a gap because they mediate a relationship between me and the land. They have a close relationship with their land and a close relationship with the person consuming the food. They become a mediator. My stewardship of the land in the U.S. is effectuated through my relationship with a farmer who's a good steward of the land that they own and that they operate. So what about certifications? What about labels like organic or natural? Well, they're helpful if the farmer that we are trusting to have a relationship with the land--mediate that relationship between us and the land--is actually growing things organically. But the organic certification program in the late nineties became co-opted by the USDA.

(14:19):

None other than Earl Butz's legacy. They trademarked the name and created a list of certification requirements in order to be able to use the label. The label today stands as sort of a proxy for, can I trust the person producing this food? And it's somewhat helpful, but what's more helpful is if I know the person and I understand how they are stewarding the land. I may not necessarily need to see that little round label on their package because the reality today is that little round label can get rather expensive and nearly impossible for small family farms to qualify for. And on the flip side, there are today over 40 synthetic chemicals that are approved by the USDA and still be allowed to be certified organic. The whole program when it became government run lost a lot of its appeal. So how do I know that these stewards of the land that I'm building a relationship with are doing it right?

(15:19):

Do I look for insignia, emblems, certifications? That's sort of what the USDA organic program promised. The reality, however, is that most of the people that are small family farms, they are responsible for the land, not just because they have to, to pass a certification, to make the person with the badge, check a box on a report, but because they have to, so that, that land continues to produce food for them, for generations to come. They have an obligation to the land out of their relationship to the land. Certified organic is helpful if the farmers are actually certified organic. If they're using organic practices. And what we've found is that many of the farmers and food producers who we work with have been organic before organic was cool. And they're organic still today, even if they can't afford or pass the regulatory hurdles that it takes to be able to legally use the little green emblem on their packaging that says certified organic. It may sound like what I'm asking people to do.

(16:19):

It seems daunting, build a relationship with every food producer that's going to feed your family. Yeah, that sounds difficult, but that's actually what we're doing with Market Wagon. And we learned the lessons the hard way. Before Market Wagon, I had started a company that was focused on getting local food into grocers, onto store shelves, where people could buy it and right alongside the rest of the industrial food that they were already shopping for. And we struggled for a lot of reasons, but one of the core problems there was grocery obfuscates, the relationship between the producer and the end consumer. The only way to directly connect you with the people who feed you is e-commerce. We're not trying to go back to Mayberry because, you know, a hundred years ago, everybody was directly connected to the people that fed them. Most of the time it was themselves and at the town square and in the small communities where they live.

(17:13):

And today the world is smaller because of the internet and because of technology. And we are doing this with Market Wagon, by creating more than just an online marketplace, where you can buy--more than buying, you can relate. We've created features that are almost like social media, following farmers, inviting friends, chatting, commenting, and having dialogues through the internet with food producers and the other people who consume the same food. We're creating a community around food and connecting you, using technology directly with the people who are producing the food so that you can trust them and they can mediate your relationship to the land that feeds us. That's also what this podcast is about. That's what I'm here to do is to bring the people onto this podcast, who you can know, learn a little bit more about them. Get to know the farmers, the food producers, the chefs, the artisans, who are mediating our relationship to the land. As we build a relationship-based trust-based food supply. I look forward to helping tell the story of farmers and food producers all across America, who are producing local food, measured more than just miles.

Nick Carter (Closing) (18:37):

Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than A Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market Wagon at marketwagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More Than A Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, Castbox, Pod Chaser, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Thank you for continuing to support local food.

 

Credited Historical Audio Clips in Episode

1. “Agriculture for a Small Planet Symposium (Wendell Berry).” July 1, 1974. The Berry Center. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1tioiBrZRE&t=50s
2. “Leaders in Agricultural Policy: A Conversation with Earl Butz.” February 1993. Purdue Ag Econ. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46G831BReDs
3. “The 1970s See Good Times in Agriculture.” Sep. 6, 2013. Iowa PBS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azxkm-3g1D4&t=2s