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    I Don’t Quite Buy the DeSantis Narrative, and Other Midterm Thoughts

    enNovember 10, 2022

    Podcast Summary

    • Florida gubernatorial race doesn't define Republican Party's futureDespite DeSantis' win, other GOP candidates also performed well, and midterm elections showed more stability than anticipated, with no significant swing in one direction or another.

      While Ron DeSantis' victory in the Florida gubernatorial race was significant, it may not signify the future of the Republican Party as some have suggested. DeSantis' win was not an outlier in the election results, as other Republican candidates also performed well in their races. For instance, Marco Rubio in Florida, Mike DeWine in Ohio, and Jared Polis in Colorado all won their elections by substantial margins. Therefore, it's essential to consider the context of each race and not solely focus on DeSantis' victory as a definitive indicator of the Republican Party's direction. Overall, the 2022 midterm elections showed more stability than anticipated, with Democrats performing better than expected despite high inflation and low approval ratings for President Biden. Republicans also underperformed, leading to a lack of a significant swing in one direction or another.

    • DeSantis' victory in Miami-Dade County: Significant but contextually nuancedDeSantis' win in Miami-Dade County highlights his appeal to diverse voter groups, but it's essential to consider broader context, including Florida's electorate shifts and the impact of Trump's endorsement on his 2024 nomination chances.

      The media's focus on Ron DeSantis' victory in Florida, particularly in Miami-Dade County, may be overstating his unique political prowess. While his win in a traditionally Democratic area with a heavy Hispanic population is significant, it's essential to consider the broader context of Florida's electorate shifts and the national Republican margin for winning elections. DeSantis' potential challenge to Donald Trump for the 2024 Republican nomination raises questions about the impact of Trump's endorsement or opposition on DeSantis' chances. Additionally, understanding Florida's political landscape and its differences from other states, such as Colorado or Arizona, is crucial to evaluating DeSantis' political achievements accurately. The media narrative can sometimes create a misleading perception of political events in the moment, but their long-term implications may differ.

    • 2022 Midterm Elections Set Up Complex and Unpredictable 2024 Republican PrimaryThe 2022 midterms have set up a more complex GOP primary race, with Trump and DeSantis potentially damaging each other, creating opportunities for other contenders like Haley, Youngkin, and Scott.

      The 2022 midterm elections have set the stage for a more complex and unpredictable 2024 Republican primary race, rather than a two-man showdown between Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis. The potential destruction of each other by Trump and DeSantis could create opportunities for other candidates like Nikki Haley, Glenn Youngkin, and Tim Scott to emerge. Similarly, Biden's stronger-than-expected performance in the midterms puts him in a better governing position but makes it harder for him to capitalize on Republican chaos in the same way as Clinton and Obama did after their respective midterm losses. Ultimately, the political narratives that take hold immediately after an election can be misleading, and the response and backlash to events can matter as much or more than the original event itself. The unpredictability of the political landscape makes it essential to stay informed and adapt to changing circumstances.

    • 2022 Midterm Elections: Deeply Divided Parties and Unwilling VotersDespite unfavorable conditions, closely divided elections with few voters switching sides due to party loyalty and economic conditions not leading to a Republican wave.

      Despite high inflation and other unfavorable factors for Democrats, the 2022 midterm elections were closely divided, with few voters changing their allegiances due to calcification and the narrowly matched parties. Trump's perceived loss in the 2022 elections may lead to a reaction from him, as he continues to believe in his own version of reality. The 2020 and 2016 elections showed that people's political beliefs remain stable, and large shifts in the vote require only minor percentage point changes. The economic conditions that were expected to lead to a Republican wave did not materialize, adding to the mystery of the election results. Overall, the deeply divided parties and the unwillingness of voters to change their allegiances played a significant role in the closely contested 2022 midterm elections.

    • Presidential approval ratings are key to midterm election outcomesDespite economic concerns, fear of opposing party's policies and majorities influenced 2022 midterm election results, with Democratic turnout counteracting potential negative economic impact, and polarization leading to fear-based voting.

      The relationship between economic indicators like inflation and employment, and midterm election results is weaker than expected. Instead, Presidential approval ratings emerged as a strong predictor of election outcomes. Despite Joe Biden's low approval rating and high inflation, Democrats did not perform as poorly as anticipated in the 2022 midterms. Fear of Republican policies and majorities was a significant driver for Democratic votes, counteracting the potential negative impact of economic concerns. The parties' shifting coalitions, with college-educated people and certain demographic groups moving between parties, add complexity to understanding election dynamics. Ultimately, fear-based voting became more prevalent as the parties became more polarized, and Democrats were able to maintain voter turnout.

    • Lack of clear agendas from both parties during midtermsBoth Democrats and Republicans failed to present compelling agendas to voters, potentially contributing to close election results. Republicans focused on fear, while Democrats remained defensive, limiting their ability to effectively communicate and learn from the experience.

      During the 2022 midterm elections, both the Democratic and Republican parties lacked clear, positive agendas. Republicans failed to convince voters they had a plan to address inflation, and instead focused on creating fear and uncertainty around various issues. Democrats, on the other hand, chose not to run on a positive agenda, instead focusing on the perceived chaos and extremism within the Republican party. The lack of clear agendas and messages from both parties may have contributed to the close results in many races. Additionally, the absence of significant recriminations or strategic debates within the Democratic party following the election may limit their ability to learn from the experience and improve their messaging moving forward.

    • Midterm Elections Strengthen Biden's Position as Democratic Standard BearerBiden's popularity and Democratic wins in midterms position him as the party's frontrunner for 2024, emphasizing local adaptation and voter connection.

      Joe Biden's position as the Democratic Party's standard bearer for the 2024 presidential election is strengthened due to the unexpectedly good performance of Democrats in the 2022 midterm elections. If the results had been different, there could have been a debate about potential new standard bearers, but with Biden's continued popularity and the expected opposition from a Republican-controlled House and potential Republican presidential contenders, Biden is poised to act as a democratic safe harbor. The contrasting results in neighboring states Pennsylvania and Ohio, where Tim Ryan failed to gain traction against Vance while Fetterman succeeded, highlight the importance of adapting to local conditions and connecting with voters on a personal level. Ohio may be more deeply entrenched in Republican control than Pennsylvania, making it a challenging environment for Democrats. Overall, the midterm elections have set the stage for a potentially contentious political landscape in the coming years.

    • The Power of Persona: Fetterman vs. RyanA candidate's relatable persona and aesthetic can sway voters, even if their policies differ. Fetterman's working-class image and relatability won over Pennsylvania voters despite his health issues, while Ryan's capabilities and policies were not enough to match Fetterman's appeal.

      The aesthetic and relatability of a candidate can significantly impact their electability, even if their policies differ from those of their opponents. The discussion centered around the comparison between John Fetterman and Tim Ryan in the Pennsylvania Senate race. Fetterman, despite having more liberal policies than Ryan, was able to win over voters due to his working-class aesthetic and relatability. His stroke did not hurt him because many voters saw themselves in him, despite his health issues. On the other hand, Ryan, while capable and having policies aligned with the labor-oriented tradition, lacked the same relatability and visual appeal as Fetterman. The debate between the two candidates highlights the importance of a candidate's persona and how it can resonate with voters, even in a polarized political climate.

    • Democrats' strategic support of extreme candidates raises questions about commitment to democracyThe Democratic Party's success in electing extreme candidates, despite moral concerns, highlights the complexity of upholding democratic values while winning elections.

      The strategy of the Democratic Party to support more extreme candidates in primaries, despite moral concerns, has been effective in winning elections. However, it raises questions about their commitment to democracy if they're promoting individuals who may undermine it if they win. This is a complex issue that requires considering different moral philosophies and the likelihood of a Democrat or a "cowardly" Republican winning the seat. The larger threat to democracy might not be the election deniers themselves but the complicit Republicans who enable them. It's not an easy decision for those in charge of making strategic choices, and both parties might not fully believe the rhetoric they spew. The lines between the "normal" and "extreme" Republicans have blurred, and the bigger threat to democracy could be the cowardly Republicans who support election deniers.

    • Potential for Crisis in US Democracy, but Peaceful Resolution Still More LikelyWhile there are concerns about the state of democracy in the US, the likelihood of a peaceful resolution remains higher than a full-blown crisis. The 2000 election serves as a reminder of the potential for instability, but many still believe in the democratic process and are working to preserve it.

      While there are concerns about the state of democracy in the United States and the potential for crisis, it's important to remember that the probability of a full-blown crisis is not a certainty. The speaker acknowledges the potential for instability, but also notes that the likelihood of a peaceful resolution is still higher. They use the example of the 2000 election and the potential for violence if it were to happen again in the current climate. The speaker also notes that despite concerns, there are still many people who believe in the democratic process and are working to preserve it. The speaker suggests that it's important to remain vigilant and engaged, but also to avoid catastrophizing the situation. Overall, the conversation highlights the importance of staying informed and taking a nuanced view of the current political climate.

    • Daily life demands hinder full engagement with crisesThe coronavirus pandemic, while significant, did not drastically alter the political landscape, and it's uncertain if the US political calcification can be broken.

      Despite the awareness of potential crises and their significant impact on society, people find it challenging to fully engage with them on a daily basis due to the demands of everyday life. The speaker uses the example of the coronavirus pandemic, which had a profound impact on the world but did not significantly alter the political landscape in the short term. The speaker also questions whether it's possible to break the political calcification in the US and what could cause a shift in coalitions. Despite the parties changing dramatically over the past two decades, parity has remained, and the speaker expresses doubt that calcification can be broken.

    • Democrats should focus on Republicans for motivationDemocrats should focus on internal Republican dynamics to motivate their base and differentiate themselves, rather than getting in their way during elections.

      The Democratic and Republican parties have become increasingly different, leading to a high level of political parity. This trend is not unique to the United States, as similar dynamics are observed in other countries. For Democrats, the key lesson from the recent election is that Republicans serve as their primary motivating force. Democrats should focus on making the internal Republican primary and potential candidates the central issue, rather than getting in their way. The upcoming Republican primary is expected to be bruising and filled with wacky candidates, making it a potential opportunity for Democrats to differentiate themselves. This strategy could help Democrats build a coalition larger than the current political parity.

    • 2024 Presidential Race: Age of Candidates Raises Hard Questions for DemocratsThe 2024 presidential race could see a generational battle between Democrats and Republicans, with Biden's age adding complexity. Ignoring this issue could be risky.

      The 2024 presidential race could be shaped by the age of the candidates, particularly for Democrats with President Joe Biden being in his eighties. This issue raises hard questions for both the Biden administration and the Democratic party. If the Republican Party moves on from Donald Trump, it could lead to a generational battle, which might be an uncomfortable conversation for Democrats to have. However, ignoring this issue could be risky, as voters and potential challengers might bring it up regardless. The demands of the presidency and the length of the term add to the complexity of this issue. Ultimately, it's a question that needs to be addressed, both politically and substantively, and Democrats can't afford to shy away from it.

    • Republicans reassessing strategies post-2022 electionsThe elections highlighted a disconnect between political class and base, with successful candidates like DeSantis appealing to both. Republican strategists may focus on organizing around DeSantis as an alternative to Trump, but his alignment with the strategic class is uncertain.

      The political landscape following the 2022 elections may require Republicans to reevaluate their strategies, particularly in regards to their messaging and candidate selection. The divergence between public and private conversations could indicate a disconnect between the political class and the base, and the success of candidates like Ron DeSantis, who managed to appeal to both the base and broader electorate, may signal a shift in the party. For Republican strategists, this could mean focusing on organizing around DeSantis as a potential alternative to Donald Trump, but the extent of DeSantis' alignment with the strategic class remains uncertain. In terms of podcast recommendations, The Prince from The Economist offers insights into the global political landscape, particularly regarding China and its leader Xi Jinping, while Odd Lots from Bloomberg provides specific, in-depth economic analysis.

    • Understanding the Political Landscape with 'The Ezra Klein Show'The Ezra Klein Show offers valuable insights into various topics, including politics and cultural shifts, with a focus on the 2020 election, the concept of calcification and parody, and the rise of populist conservatism. Recommended reading: Richard Hofstadter's 'The Paranoid Style in American Politics' essay.

      There are several informative podcasts that provide valuable insights into various aspects of our current societal landscape. "Odd Lots" offers a comprehensive understanding of the economy, from traditional supply chains to the crypto economy. "Volts" by Dave Roberts delves deep into climate and energy issues, and the Ezra Klein Show covers a wide range of topics, including politics and cultural shifts. One particularly enlightening episode discussed the 2020 election, the concept of calcification and parody, and the rise of populist conservatism. For those interested in understanding the historical context of the current political climate, Richard Hofstadter's "The Paranoid Style in American Politics" essay is also recommended. The Ezra Klein Show is produced by a dedicated team and is a must-listen for anyone seeking to expand their knowledge on various topics.

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    The Biggest Political Divide Is Not Left vs. Right

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    The ‘Need for Chaos’ and Motivations to Share Hostile Political Rumors” by Michael Bang Petersen, Mathias Osmundsen and Kevin Arceneaux

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    The View From the Israeli Right

    The View From the Israeli Right

    On Tuesday I got back from an eight-day trip to Israel and the West Bank. I happened to be there on the day that Benny Gantz resigned from the war cabinet and called on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to schedule new elections, breaking the unity government that Israel had had since shortly after Oct. 7.

    There is no viable left wing in Israel right now. There is a coalition that Netanyahu leads stretching from right to far right and a coalition that Gantz leads stretching from center to right. In the early months of the war, Gantz appeared ascendant as support for Netanyahu cratered. But now Netanyahu’s poll numbers are ticking back up.

    So one thing I did in Israel was deepen my reporting on Israel’s right. And there, Amit Segal’s name kept coming up. He’s one of Israel’s most influential political analysts and the author of “The Story of Israeli Politics” is coming out in English.

    Segal and I talked about the political differences between Gantz and Netanyahu, the theory of security that’s emerging on the Israeli right, what happened to the Israeli left, the threat from Iran and Hezbollah and how Netanyahu is trying to use President Biden’s criticism to his political advantage.

    Mentioned:

    Biden May Spur Another Netanyahu Comeback” by Amit Segal

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    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

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    The Economic Theory That Explains Why Americans Are So Mad

    The Economic Theory That Explains Why Americans Are So Mad

    There’s something weird happening with the economy. On a personal level, most Americans say they’re doing pretty well right now. And according to the data, that’s true. Wages have gone up faster than inflation. Unemployment is low, the stock market is generally up so far this year, and people are buying more stuff.

    And yet in surveys, people keep saying the economy is bad. A recent Harris poll for The Guardian found that around half of Americans think the S. & P. 500 is down this year, and that unemployment is at a 50-year high. Fifty-six percent think we’re in a recession.

    There are many theories about why this gap exists. Maybe political polarization is warping how people see the economy or it’s a failure of President Biden’s messaging, or there’s just something uniquely painful about inflation. And while there’s truth in all of these, it felt like a piece of the story was missing.

    And for me, that missing piece was an article I read right before the pandemic. An Atlantic story from February 2020 called “The Great Affordability Crisis Breaking America.” It described how some of Americans’ biggest-ticket expenses — housing, health care, higher education and child care — which were already pricey, had been getting steadily pricier for decades.

    At the time, prices weren’t the big topic in the economy; the focus was more on jobs and wages. So it was easier for this trend to slip notice, like a frog boiling in water, quietly, putting more and more strain on American budgets. But today, after years of high inflation, prices are the biggest topic in the economy. And I think that explains the anger people feel: They’re noticing the price of things all the time, and getting hammered with the reality of how expensive these things have become.

    The author of that Atlantic piece is Annie Lowrey. She’s an economics reporter, the author of Give People Money, and also my wife. In this conversation, we discuss how the affordability crisis has collided with our post-pandemic inflationary world, the forces that shape our economic perceptions, why people keep spending as if prices aren’t a strain and what this might mean for the presidential election.

    Mentioned:

    It Will Never Be a Good Time to Buy a House” by Annie Lowrey

    Book Recommendations:

    Franchise by Marcia Chatelain

    A Place of Greater Safety by Hilary Mantel

    Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 07, 2024

    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump

    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump

    After Donald Trump was convicted last week in his hush-money trial, Republican leaders wasted no time in rallying behind him. There was no chance the Republican Party was going to replace Trump as their nominee at this point. Trump has essentially taken over the G.O.P.; his daughter-in-law is even co-chair of the Republican National Committee.

    How did the Republican Party get so weak that it could fall victim to a hostile takeover?

    Daniel Schlozman and Sam Rosenfeld are the authors of “The Hollow Parties: The Many Pasts and Disordered Present of American Party Politics,” which traces how both major political parties have been “hollowed out” over the decades, transforming once-powerful gatekeeping institutions into mere vessels for the ideologies of specific candidates. And they argue that this change has been perilous for our democracy.

    In this conversation, we discuss how the power of the parties has been gradually chipped away; why the Republican Party became less ideological and more geared around conflict; the merits of a stronger party system; and more.

    Mentioned:

    Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden” by The Ezra Klein Show

    Here’s How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work” by The Ezra Klein Show with Elaine Kamarck

    Book Recommendations:

    The Two Faces of American Freedom by Aziz Rana

    Rainbow’s End by Steven P. Erie

    An American Melodrama by Lewis Chester, Godfrey Hodgson, Bruce Page

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show’‘ was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker, Kate Sinclair and Rollin Hu. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 04, 2024

    Your Mind Is Being Fracked

    Your Mind Is Being Fracked

    The steady dings of notifications. The 40 tabs that greet you when you open your computer in the morning. The hundreds of unread emails, most of them spam, with subject lines pleading or screaming for you to click. Our attention is under assault these days, and most of us are familiar with the feeling that gives us — fractured, irritated, overwhelmed.

    D. Graham Burnett calls the attention economy an example of “human fracking”: With our attention in shorter and shorter supply, companies are going to even greater lengths to extract this precious resource from us. And he argues that it’s now reached a point that calls for a kind of revolution. “This is creating conditions that are at odds with human flourishing. We know this,” he tells me. “And we need to mount new forms of resistance.”

    Burnett is a professor of the history of science at Princeton University and is working on a book about the laboratory study of attention. He’s also a co-founder of the Strother School of Radical Attention, which is a kind of grass roots, artistic effort to create a curriculum for studying attention.

    In this conversation, we talk about how the 20th-century study of attention laid the groundwork for today’s attention economy, the connection between changing ideas of attention and changing ideas of the self, how we even define attention (this episode is worth listening to for Burnett’s collection of beautiful metaphors alone), whether the concern over our shrinking attention spans is simply a moral panic, what it means to teach attention and more.

    Mentioned:

    Friends of Attention

    The Battle for Attention” by Nathan Heller

    Powerful Forces Are Fracking Our Attention. We Can Fight Back.” by D. Graham Burnett, Alyssa Loh and Peter Schmidt

    Scenes of Attention edited by D. Graham Burnett and Justin E. H. Smith

    Book Recommendations:

    Addiction by Design by Natasha Dow Schüll

    Objectivity by Lorraine Daston and Peter L. Galison

    The Confidence-Man by Herman Melville

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Elias Isquith. Original music by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 31, 2024

    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    A.I.-generated art has flooded the internet, and a lot of it is derivative, even boring or offensive. But what could it look like for artists to collaborate with A.I. systems in making art that is actually generative, challenging, transcendent?

    Holly Herndon offered one answer with her 2019 album “PROTO.” Along with Mathew Dryhurst and the programmer Jules LaPlace, she built an A.I. called “Spawn” trained on human voices that adds an uncanny yet oddly personal layer to the music. Beyond her music and visual art, Herndon is trying to solve a problem that many creative people are encountering as A.I. becomes more prominent: How do you encourage experimentation without stealing others’ work to train A.I. models? Along with Dryhurst, Jordan Meyer and Patrick Hoepner, she co-founded Spawning, a company figuring out how to allow artists — and all of us creating content on the internet — to “consent” to our work being used as training data.

    In this conversation, we discuss how Herndon collaborated with a human chorus and her “A.I. baby,” Spawn, on “PROTO”; how A.I. voice imitators grew out of electronic music and other musical genres; why Herndon prefers the term “collective intelligence” to “artificial intelligence”; why an “opt-in” model could help us retain more control of our work as A.I. trawls the internet for data; and much more.

    Mentioned:

    Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt” by Holly Herndon

    xhairymutantx” by Holly Herndon and Mat Dryhurst, for the Whitney Museum of Art

    Fade” by Holly Herndon

    Swim” by Holly Herndon

    Jolene” by Holly Herndon and Holly+

    Movement” by Holly Herndon

    Chorus” by Holly Herndon

    Godmother” by Holly Herndon

    The Precision of Infinity” by Jlin and Philip Glass

    Holly+

    Book Recommendations:

    Intelligence and Spirit by Reza Negarestani

    Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky

    Plurality by E. Glen Weyl, Audrey Tang and ⿻ Community

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Jack Hamilton.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 24, 2024

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