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    • Cultural Shifts in Europe Led to Unique Psychologies in WEIRD IndividualsAnthropologist Joseph Henrich discovered that cultural shifts, especially religious ones, shaped the development of individualistic psychologies in Western, educated, industrialized, rich, and democratic societies, distinct from other cultures.

      The psychologies and behaviors we consider typical or universal may in fact be unique to a specific group of people known as WEIRD (Western, educated, industrialized, rich, and democratic) individuals. Anthropologist Joseph Henrich argues that cultural shifts, particularly religious ones, beginning in the Middle Ages, transformed the psychologies of individuals in Europe, leading to the development of market economies, representative government, and human rights. Henrich's research reveals significant global variation in how people think about themselves and the world, with WEIRD individuals focusing more on their individual attributes and less on relationships. For example, when asked to fill in the blank with "I am," WEIRD individuals tend to respond with attributes and accomplishments, while individuals from other cultures focus on relationships. These differences highlight the importance of considering cultural context when studying human psychology and behavior.

    • Understanding the Individualism ComplexIn cultures emphasizing individualism, people believe in unique selves and focus on standing out, while in more relational cultures, stability within networks and reputational effects are prioritized.

      The individualism complex, a psychological profile prevalent in the Western world, is characterized by a belief in unitary selves and a focus on individual traits that make one stand out in a competitive social landscape. This complex is adaptive in cultures where families are small, relationships are optional, and individuals have the freedom to cultivate a unique self. Conversely, in cultures where individuals are born into pre-existing networks and have many social responsibilities, stability within those networks is prioritized. This stability can come from reputational effects, as individuals rely on social connections to thrive. It might seem counterintuitive that stability is valued in a world of more choices, but the importance of social ties and reputation cannot be understated. The discussion also highlighted the importance of understanding cultural differences and avoiding oversimplification, as the spectrum of social structures runs the gamut from completely individualistic to highly relational.

    • Navigating Differences in Individualistic and Hierarchical SocietiesIn individualistic societies, people adapt to contexts and relationships, prioritizing personal traits for self-esteem. Contrastingly, hierarchical societies value respect for authority and shared rules, impacting organization and decision-making processes.

      In our increasingly individualistic world, people are expected to be adaptable and behave differently depending on the context and relationships. This can range from casual interactions with strangers to more formal relationships with authority figures or family members. The trend towards egalitarianism and collapsing distinctions has led to a desire for flatness and informality, which can be seen in various aspects of society. However, this contrasts with other societies where hierarchy and respect for authority are deeply rooted, making the organization and decision-making processes different. Furthermore, in individualistic societies, self-esteem is focused on personal traits and traits that make one stand out, while in other societies, there is a shared set of rules and shame affects close relatives, making the relationship between self-esteem and happiness less significant.

    • Cultural differences in perceptions and experiencesCultural norms and values shape goals, priorities, and the significance of intentions in different societies

      People's perceptions and experiences of the world can vary greatly depending on cultural norms and values. For instance, the emphasis on individual self-esteem in some cultures contrasts with the importance of family and social connections in others. This can lead to significantly different goals and priorities in life. Another intriguing difference between cultures is the degree to which intentions matter when judging actions. In some societies, intentions are paramount, while in others, they hold little importance. This difference can manifest in legal and judicial systems, with some focusing on intricately labeling mental states, and others taking a simpler approach. Overall, Morrison's work highlights the profound impact of cultural differences on individual perceptions and societal institutions.

    • The role of intentionality and mental states in moral judgments differs across cultures and religionsUnderstanding the unique moral frameworks of diverse populations is crucial for effective communication and respectful interactions

      The importance of intentionality and mental states in moral judgments varies greatly across different cultures and religions. For instance, while Protestantism places a significant emphasis on faith and intent, other religions and societies focus more on actions and community engagement. This was highlighted in discussions about ancient law codes, Protestantism versus Catholicism, and even in a Fijian elder's perspective on decision-making. The Passengers' Dilemma experiment further illustrates this point, as the willingness to tell the truth in court varies significantly across populations. While Canadians are more likely to prioritize truth, other cultures might prioritize loyalty and friendship instead. This difference in moral priorities can significantly impact the effectiveness of legal institutions. It's important to remember that there's no inherently "better" way of looking at these issues, but rather, different perspectives that can provide valuable insights. When engaging with people from diverse backgrounds, it's crucial to understand their unique moral frameworks and respect their reasoning, even if it differs from our own.

    • Religion's Role in Promoting Cooperation and Prosocial BehaviorReligion, with its emphasis on moralizing gods, has historically driven cooperation and prosocial behavior by promoting the belief in heaven and hell and God's control over the afterlife, allowing for the development of impersonal structures and principles.

      Throughout history, the emphasis on interpersonal morality and helping those we care about has often been prioritized over impersonal rules and institutions, such as the legal system. However, the emergence of more powerful, moralizing religions played a significant role in promoting cooperation and prosocial behavior, allowing for the development of impersonal structures and principles. Societies with beliefs in these moralizing gods were able to galvanize larger groups and encourage more prosocial behavior through the belief in heaven and hell and God's control over the afterlife. Experiments have shown that people are more likely to be fair in allocating resources to strangers when they believe in these moralizing gods. Therefore, religion has been a powerful driver of cultural evolution and has contributed to the dominance of impersonal structures and principles in modern society.

    • Culture shapes human behavior and brainsSubtle cultural cues can influence monetary allocations and prosocial behavior, cultural learning shapes thinking and perception, and literacy physically rewires the brain.

      Human beings are more culturally shaped than many of us realize, and our cultural environments can significantly impact our behavior and even physically rewire our brains. This was discussed in the context of various studies showing that subtle cues of religion or cultural norms can influence people's monetary allocations and prosocial behavior. The speaker also emphasized the importance of cultural learning in human development and how it shapes our thinking and perception of the world. For instance, our ability to see certain visual illusions depends on the cultural context we grow up in. The speaker's perspective can be summarized as the belief that human nature is less fixed than commonly believed, and that our cultural environments play a significant role in shaping us into various forms. This perspective is reflected in the speaker's teaching at Harvard, where they emphasize the importance of understanding humans as a cultural species. The speaker also highlighted the example of literacy, which physically rewires the brain and affects various aspects of cognitive processing. Overall, the discussion emphasized the interconnectedness of culture, psychology, and biology, and the profound impact of culture on human development and behavior.

    • Cultural Evolution Shaping GenesCultural practices like using fire and cooking led to physical adaptations. Human children's extended care and learning period may be due to evolutionary pressures from our cultural environment.

      Human culture and genetic evolution have been interconnected for millions of years. Cultural evolution, driven by social norms and institutions, has shaped our genes through processes like gene-culture coevolution. For instance, the use of fire and cooking led to physical adaptations like smaller digestive systems. Human children, unlike those of other species, are born premature and require extensive care from multiple caregivers during their altricial stage and middle childhood, a period of learning and cultural acquisition. This unique developmental trajectory may be a result of evolutionary pressures related to our cultural environment. Overall, the intricate relationship between cultural and genetic evolution has significantly influenced the development of the human species.

    • Religion's Role in Cultural Evolution: Transmission of Knowledge and Social CohesionReligion fosters cooperation and strengthens social bonds through shared beliefs and practices, leading to improved productivity and group dynamics.

      Religion plays a crucial role in cultural evolution by serving as a powerful technology for knowledge transmission and social cohesion. Anthropological research shows that in many human societies, religion is interwoven with production and exchange systems, and rituals associated with these activities help bond people together. This is particularly important in the context of inter-societal competition, where religious beliefs and practices can improve cooperation and productivity. For instance, the Arapesh people of New Guinea believe that their gods cause misfortunes when displeased, leading them to perform rituals to appease them and rebuild social bonds. This misconception, despite being factually incorrect, has the beneficial effect of fostering cooperation and improving group dynamics. Similarly, in the context of 20th century communes in the United States, religious groups like the Mormons and Hutterites, which allowed for the formation of strong social bonds through shared beliefs and practices, outlasted and outgrew non-religious communes. Overall, religion's role in cultural evolution lies in its ability to transmit knowledge, strengthen social bonds, and promote cooperation among groups.

    • The power of belief and rituals in fostering cooperation and cultural evolutionBeliefs and rituals, often rooted in religious contexts, play a crucial role in fostering cooperation and driving cultural evolution. Embracing such traditions can help communities endure and achieve great things.

      The power of belief and rituals, often rooted in religious contexts, plays a crucial role in fostering cooperation and driving cultural evolution. The examples in the discussion suggest that communities that embrace such beliefs and practices have a better chance of enduring and achieving great things. Conversely, attempts to change cultures through rationality alone may not be as effective. The complex rituals mentioned in the discussion serve as a means to bind people together, providing a reason for cooperation beyond logical justifications. The implication is that secular societies could benefit from harnessing the wisdom and cooperative power of religious traditions, even as they continue to evolve and secularize. The challenge is to find ways to adapt these insights to modern contexts, without promoting supernatural beliefs.

    • Religious rituals foster cooperation in Utah communitiesComplex religious beliefs encourage commitment, shared sacrifice, and cooperation among members, but may not be achievable through rationalism alone. Implementing costly activities, justified by a commitment to truth and justice, could be a potential solution for fostering similar levels of cooperation in larger societal contexts.

      The complex religious rituals and practices in Utah, rooted in the Latter-day Saints faith, have contributed to a high level of cooperation and prosociality within the community. This intricate belief system, with its illogical and complex nature, fosters a sense of commitment and shared sacrifice among its members. However, this level of commitment might not be achievable through rationalism alone. Instead, implementing costly activities, justified by a commitment to truth and justice, could be a potential solution for fostering similar levels of cooperation in a larger societal context. The Catholic Church played a significant role in shaping Western societies by dismantling intensive kinship systems through various prohibitions and prescriptions. This transformation led to the emergence of more impersonal institutions, which helped explain why some regions developed differently than others. The Italian peninsula, for instance, presents a fascinating case, with the north renowned for the Renaissance and the banking industry, while the south is known for corruption and organized crime. This dichotomy can be attributed to the different historical trajectories of these regions, shaped by the Church's influence.

    • Historical Divide Between Northern and Southern ItalyThe historical presence of the Carolingian Empire and Paris system in Northern Italy versus the Orthodox church and Islamic rulers in Southern Italy influenced family structures, trust, and corruption levels, shaping modern differences in democratic attitudes, working hours, and bank deposits.

      The historical presence of the Carolingian Empire and the spread of the Paris system in Northern Italy versus the Orthodox church and Islamic rulers in Southern Italy has had lasting impacts on modern societal structures and development. This historical divide led to variations in family structures, trust, and corruption levels in Italy and can be observed in modern measures such as democratic attitudes, working hours, and bank deposits. This theory helps explain the seemingly puzzling differences between the two regions. However, it's important to maintain a healthy dose of skepticism, as this argument relies on correlational data and there may be other uncontrolled factors at play. To further test this theory, researchers have looked at data from the Democratic Republic of Congo and China, finding similar results. These findings suggest that the historical impact of religious and political structures on family structures and societal development may be a significant factor in understanding modern variations among different populations.

    • Historical suppression of cousin marriage and economic prosperityStudies show that Western societies' suppression of cousin marriage led to economic growth, as evidenced by declines in subgroups that practiced it and correlations with lower incomes. Adoption of Western civil law in East Asia also coincided with economic growth, and weaker kinship structures are associated with prosperity.

      The historical suppression of cousin marriage in Western societies, particularly in the US, has contributed to long-term economic prosperity. This is supported by various lines of evidence, including studies showing declines in subgroups that practiced cousin marriage and correlations between cousin marriage and lower incomes. The adoption of Western civil law in East Asia, which similarly altered family structures and outlawed cousin marriage, also coincided with economic growth. Additionally, data from nighttime satellite illumination and ethnic group comparisons within countries suggest that weaker kinship structures are associated with economic prosperity. The implication is that modern economic institutions and markets may fit better with low-intensity kinship structures, making it easier for societies to engage in global economic cooperation. However, the question of why some Catholic societies with strong kinship traditions have not shown the same economic effects remains open for further research.

    • China's population control policies and technology's impact on cultural evolutionCentralized governments can impose social cooperation through strict policies, but as societies become more individualistic, this may become challenging. Technology facilitates the recombination and diffusion of ideas, leading to rapid innovation and new forms of cooperation.

      China's strict population control policies, such as the one-child policy, demonstrate the ability of a centralized government to impose social cooperation and limitations more directly than indirect methods like religion. However, as societies become more individualistic, this ability to control through conformity may become more challenging. Technology, another significant factor in cultural evolution, can also lead to rapid innovation and new forms of cooperation. The industrial revolution, for instance, was a result of the recombination and diffusion of existing ideas, which occurred more frequently in diverse and densely populated areas due to increased interaction between minds. In essence, the more diverse ideas and people come together, the more likely it is for novel combinations to emerge and drive technological progress.

    • Migration and cultural diversity fuel innovationImmigration adds richness to sociocultural diversity, leading to more patents and creativity. Societies seeking innovation should prioritize migration and cultural diversity.

      Migration and cultural diversity play a significant role in driving innovation and cultural evolution. The spread of places like Starbucks, which facilitate idea exchange between people from different backgrounds, has been linked to an increase in patenting. Research shows that immigrant shocks add richness to sociocultural diversity, leading to more patents and creativity. Conversely, limiting immigration can result in a decline in innovation. Additionally, there's a correlation between moral parochialism and voting for candidates like Donald Trump. Counties with a smaller circle of cooperation and a greater concern for loyalties and hierarchy are more likely to vote for Trump, over and above previous Republican candidates. This trend held true in the 2020 election. The research suggests that societies seeking more innovation and cultural evolution should prioritize migration and cultural diversity.

    • Moral values shifting in urban vs rural areasUrban areas show universalistic moral values rising, rural areas declining and becoming more parochial. Economic and weather shocks, decreased movement, and long-term ties affect these trends, but individualism's directionality raises concerns for potential monoculture and competitive advantages.

      Moral values in urban areas may be becoming more universalistic, while those in rural counties are declining and becoming more parochial. This trend can be explained by economic and weather shocks, as well as decreased movement and establishment of long-term ties in certain areas. However, the world's directionality towards individualism raises questions about potential monoculture and the possibility of competitive advantages becoming disadvantages. The complexities of globalization, as seen in China, suggest a more multidimensional understanding of cultural evolution is needed. When examining psychological surveys, it's important to note that people's responses can be nuanced, and generalized trust may not always correlate with in-group and out-group trust as it does in Western societies.

    • Trust and its complexitiesAnthropologist Joe Henrich discusses the multidimensional nature of trust, sharing his mistrust towards foreigners and recommending books to deepen understanding of trust and its historical influences

      Trust plays a significant role in shaping our interactions with people, but it's not always a simple matter. Trust can be influenced by factors like cultural background and personal experiences. Joe Henrich, an anthropologist, discussed how most people we encounter in life are trusted, but he expressed mistrust towards foreigners. He also mentioned the need for more complex analyses to understand the multidimensional shape of this phenomenon. As for book recommendations, Henrich suggested "Why Europe?" by Michael Mitterauer for those interested in learning more about Europe. He also recommended Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs, and Steel" for its exploration of how geography and culture have influenced history. Lastly, he recommended "A Chosen Few: How Education Shaped Jewish History" for its emphasis on the long-term consequences of early changes in a religion or group.

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    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

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    The View From the Israeli Right

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    There is no viable left wing in Israel right now. There is a coalition that Netanyahu leads stretching from right to far right and a coalition that Gantz leads stretching from center to right. In the early months of the war, Gantz appeared ascendant as support for Netanyahu cratered. But now Netanyahu’s poll numbers are ticking back up.

    So one thing I did in Israel was deepen my reporting on Israel’s right. And there, Amit Segal’s name kept coming up. He’s one of Israel’s most influential political analysts and the author of “The Story of Israeli Politics” is coming out in English.

    Segal and I talked about the political differences between Gantz and Netanyahu, the theory of security that’s emerging on the Israeli right, what happened to the Israeli left, the threat from Iran and Hezbollah and how Netanyahu is trying to use President Biden’s criticism to his political advantage.

    Mentioned:

    Biden May Spur Another Netanyahu Comeback” by Amit Segal

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    The Years of Lyndon Johnson Series by Robert A. Caro

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    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
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    The Economic Theory That Explains Why Americans Are So Mad

    The Economic Theory That Explains Why Americans Are So Mad

    There’s something weird happening with the economy. On a personal level, most Americans say they’re doing pretty well right now. And according to the data, that’s true. Wages have gone up faster than inflation. Unemployment is low, the stock market is generally up so far this year, and people are buying more stuff.

    And yet in surveys, people keep saying the economy is bad. A recent Harris poll for The Guardian found that around half of Americans think the S. & P. 500 is down this year, and that unemployment is at a 50-year high. Fifty-six percent think we’re in a recession.

    There are many theories about why this gap exists. Maybe political polarization is warping how people see the economy or it’s a failure of President Biden’s messaging, or there’s just something uniquely painful about inflation. And while there’s truth in all of these, it felt like a piece of the story was missing.

    And for me, that missing piece was an article I read right before the pandemic. An Atlantic story from February 2020 called “The Great Affordability Crisis Breaking America.” It described how some of Americans’ biggest-ticket expenses — housing, health care, higher education and child care — which were already pricey, had been getting steadily pricier for decades.

    At the time, prices weren’t the big topic in the economy; the focus was more on jobs and wages. So it was easier for this trend to slip notice, like a frog boiling in water, quietly, putting more and more strain on American budgets. But today, after years of high inflation, prices are the biggest topic in the economy. And I think that explains the anger people feel: They’re noticing the price of things all the time, and getting hammered with the reality of how expensive these things have become.

    The author of that Atlantic piece is Annie Lowrey. She’s an economics reporter, the author of Give People Money, and also my wife. In this conversation, we discuss how the affordability crisis has collided with our post-pandemic inflationary world, the forces that shape our economic perceptions, why people keep spending as if prices aren’t a strain and what this might mean for the presidential election.

    Mentioned:

    It Will Never Be a Good Time to Buy a House” by Annie Lowrey

    Book Recommendations:

    Franchise by Marcia Chatelain

    A Place of Greater Safety by Hilary Mantel

    Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 07, 2024

    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump

    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump

    After Donald Trump was convicted last week in his hush-money trial, Republican leaders wasted no time in rallying behind him. There was no chance the Republican Party was going to replace Trump as their nominee at this point. Trump has essentially taken over the G.O.P.; his daughter-in-law is even co-chair of the Republican National Committee.

    How did the Republican Party get so weak that it could fall victim to a hostile takeover?

    Daniel Schlozman and Sam Rosenfeld are the authors of “The Hollow Parties: The Many Pasts and Disordered Present of American Party Politics,” which traces how both major political parties have been “hollowed out” over the decades, transforming once-powerful gatekeeping institutions into mere vessels for the ideologies of specific candidates. And they argue that this change has been perilous for our democracy.

    In this conversation, we discuss how the power of the parties has been gradually chipped away; why the Republican Party became less ideological and more geared around conflict; the merits of a stronger party system; and more.

    Mentioned:

    Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden” by The Ezra Klein Show

    Here’s How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work” by The Ezra Klein Show with Elaine Kamarck

    Book Recommendations:

    The Two Faces of American Freedom by Aziz Rana

    Rainbow’s End by Steven P. Erie

    An American Melodrama by Lewis Chester, Godfrey Hodgson, Bruce Page

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show’‘ was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker, Kate Sinclair and Rollin Hu. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 04, 2024

    Your Mind Is Being Fracked

    Your Mind Is Being Fracked

    The steady dings of notifications. The 40 tabs that greet you when you open your computer in the morning. The hundreds of unread emails, most of them spam, with subject lines pleading or screaming for you to click. Our attention is under assault these days, and most of us are familiar with the feeling that gives us — fractured, irritated, overwhelmed.

    D. Graham Burnett calls the attention economy an example of “human fracking”: With our attention in shorter and shorter supply, companies are going to even greater lengths to extract this precious resource from us. And he argues that it’s now reached a point that calls for a kind of revolution. “This is creating conditions that are at odds with human flourishing. We know this,” he tells me. “And we need to mount new forms of resistance.”

    Burnett is a professor of the history of science at Princeton University and is working on a book about the laboratory study of attention. He’s also a co-founder of the Strother School of Radical Attention, which is a kind of grass roots, artistic effort to create a curriculum for studying attention.

    In this conversation, we talk about how the 20th-century study of attention laid the groundwork for today’s attention economy, the connection between changing ideas of attention and changing ideas of the self, how we even define attention (this episode is worth listening to for Burnett’s collection of beautiful metaphors alone), whether the concern over our shrinking attention spans is simply a moral panic, what it means to teach attention and more.

    Mentioned:

    Friends of Attention

    The Battle for Attention” by Nathan Heller

    Powerful Forces Are Fracking Our Attention. We Can Fight Back.” by D. Graham Burnett, Alyssa Loh and Peter Schmidt

    Scenes of Attention edited by D. Graham Burnett and Justin E. H. Smith

    Book Recommendations:

    Addiction by Design by Natasha Dow Schüll

    Objectivity by Lorraine Daston and Peter L. Galison

    The Confidence-Man by Herman Melville

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Elias Isquith. Original music by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 31, 2024

    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    A.I.-generated art has flooded the internet, and a lot of it is derivative, even boring or offensive. But what could it look like for artists to collaborate with A.I. systems in making art that is actually generative, challenging, transcendent?

    Holly Herndon offered one answer with her 2019 album “PROTO.” Along with Mathew Dryhurst and the programmer Jules LaPlace, she built an A.I. called “Spawn” trained on human voices that adds an uncanny yet oddly personal layer to the music. Beyond her music and visual art, Herndon is trying to solve a problem that many creative people are encountering as A.I. becomes more prominent: How do you encourage experimentation without stealing others’ work to train A.I. models? Along with Dryhurst, Jordan Meyer and Patrick Hoepner, she co-founded Spawning, a company figuring out how to allow artists — and all of us creating content on the internet — to “consent” to our work being used as training data.

    In this conversation, we discuss how Herndon collaborated with a human chorus and her “A.I. baby,” Spawn, on “PROTO”; how A.I. voice imitators grew out of electronic music and other musical genres; why Herndon prefers the term “collective intelligence” to “artificial intelligence”; why an “opt-in” model could help us retain more control of our work as A.I. trawls the internet for data; and much more.

    Mentioned:

    Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt” by Holly Herndon

    xhairymutantx” by Holly Herndon and Mat Dryhurst, for the Whitney Museum of Art

    Fade” by Holly Herndon

    Swim” by Holly Herndon

    Jolene” by Holly Herndon and Holly+

    Movement” by Holly Herndon

    Chorus” by Holly Herndon

    Godmother” by Holly Herndon

    The Precision of Infinity” by Jlin and Philip Glass

    Holly+

    Book Recommendations:

    Intelligence and Spirit by Reza Negarestani

    Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky

    Plurality by E. Glen Weyl, Audrey Tang and ⿻ Community

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Jack Hamilton.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 24, 2024

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    Vox's Benji Jones talks with food journalist and author Dan Saladino, whose new book Eating to Extinction documents rare foods and food cultures from around the world, showing how they are being affected by climate change, globalization, and industrial agricultural practices. Dan shares many incredible stories from his travels and reporting, including the last known garden growing a unique soybean, a 16-foot high corn that produces its own fertilizer, and a complex symbiosis between man, bird, and bee in remote Tanzania. Host: Benji Jones (@BenjiSJones), Environmental reporter, Vox Guest: Dan Saladino (@DanSaladinoUK), food journalist & author References:  Eating to Extinction: The World's Rarest Foods and Why We Need to Save Them by Dan Saladino (FSG; 2022) The Food Programme (BBC Radio 4; also on Apple Podcasts) The Ark of Taste (Slow Food Foundation for Biodiversity) "The Corn of the Future Is Hundreds of Years Old and Makes Its Own Mucus" by Jason Daley (Smithsonian; Aug. 10, 2018) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by:  Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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