thucydides

Part I of my two-part conversation with Jonathan Kirshner about his new book, An Unwritten Future: Realism, Uncertainty, and World Politics. Kirshner explains why classical realism is a misunderstood intellectual tradition. We get into: Why realism recruits dead people into their intellectual tradition; what we can learn from Thucydides, and why an armchair understanding of the Peloponnesian War does more harm than good; why realist pessimism is a self-fulfilling prophecy; why international relations has somewhat lost its way; how we should think about the “national interest"; and distinctions between realist and progressive political economy.

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The failures of radical democracy! In this episode, we look at Chapter 1 of Alan Ryan's On Politics, beginning with the emergence and rule of Athenian radical democracy. We look at the origins of the Greek city-state, the functioning of the Athenian Assembly, the Persian and Peloponnesian Wars, the Trial of Socrates, and more! We also break down why the Athenian democracy ultimately failed and why it might not be the best idea to praise radical democracy as a great political system. We're also planning a future giveaway, so be sure to follow us on Twitter @UlmtdOpinions for more upcoming details!

With Jed Atkins, I discuss Thucydides understanding of politics, how he has shaped the history of political thought, and the context for him writing "The History of the Peloponnesian War." We then focus on a passage from "The History" known as the Athenian-Melian dialog, reflecting together on the ways this dialogue frames the relationship between power and politics. In the second part, I discuss with Anna Eng why the dialogue is drawn on by community organizers to teach democratic politics and how she uses the dialog in trainings.

Guests:

Jed Atkins is the E. Blake Byrne Associate Professor of Classical Studies and Associate Professor of Political Science and Philosophy at Duke University. He is chair of the Classical Studies Department and Faculty Director of Transformative Ideas and the Civil Discourse Project in the Kenan Institute of Ethics. A scholar of Greek, Roman, and early Christian political theory, he is the author of “Cicero on Politics” and the “Limits of Reason; Roman Political Thought;” and (with Thomas Bénatouïl) editor of “The Cambridge Companion to Cicero’s Philosophy.”

Anna Eng is the lead organizer of Nevadans for the Common Good, an affiliate of the Industrial Areas Foundation (IAF). Originally from Portland, Oregon, she has organized for over 20 years in California, Texas and Nevada. 

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• For readings to download relevant to or discussed in an episode visit: https://ormondcenter.com/listen-organize-act-podcast

"I asked Tom if countries always apologized when they had done wrong, and he says: 'Yes; the littles ones does.'"
- Mark Twain, Tom Sawyer Abroad , 1894

In the episode, we take a look at a classic, “The Melian Dialogue” from Thucydides’ History of the Peloponnesian War.  It is a famous exchange between powerful Athens, which is engaged in an epic struggle for dominance with its great rival Sparta, and weak Melos, which has declared its neutrality.  Even though this event took place over 2500 years ago, history has shown the reasoning behind the actions have been a constant in human history and essential for understanding how and why great powers conduct wars.

Alcibiades fought and strategized for Athens, Sparta, Persia, Athens (again), and Thrace, proving that he fought the entire time only for himself. Was it vanity or pride? Enjoy the first truly negative portrayal Plutarch tries to give, though Plutarch in all his humanity can still defend Alcibiades from his most malicious detractors.

Parallel: Coriolanus

Important People

Spartans:

• Agis II - Spartan King at the time Alcibiades defects to the Spartans. Alcibiades advises Agis to occupy Deceleia, preventing the Athenians from accessing their farms for the remainder of the war. 
  • Timaea - Spartan Queen
  • Leotychides - son of Timaea and Alcibiades, disinherited from the throne.
• Lysander - Wily Spartan naval commander who finally manages to defeat the Athenians decisively at sea. He then besieges Athens and sets up a government of thirty tyrannical oligarchs backed up by a Spartan bodyguard. Alcibiades wisely never engages directly with Lysander, though one of his lietuenant does in Alcibiades's absence. 

Persians:

• Pharnabazus - One of two powerful Persian satraps in Western Asia Minor with which Alcibiades fights once while trying to keep access to the Black Sea open for Athens. The second time they meet, Alcibiades has abandoned Athens for the last time and seeks to become what Themistocles was, a resident and advisor of the Persian Empire. 
• Tissaphernes - A scheming satrap with a great deal in common with Alcibiades. He does and says what he needs to to get his own way. We'll see him again in the Life of Agesilaus.
• Cyrus - Younger son of the Persian King Darius II, Cyrus comes out to Asia Minor to deal with squabbling satraps and to crush Athens for good. He allies himself with Lysander and funds the navy that ultimately destroys Athens. 

Athenians:

• Nicias - Alcibiades's main political rival in Athens, famous for his superstition and his vacillation, Alcibiades's confidence and charisma attract a much larger following. 
• Antiochus - A vice-commander left in charge while Alcibiades away. He ignore Alc's direct command. notto engage with Lysander and in the ensuing battle loses and dies. 

Important Places

Deceleia (23.2) - A mountain citadel of Attica, about 14 miles from Athens towards Boeotia, commanding the Athenian plain and the shortest routes to Euboea and Boeotia, occupied by the Spartans in 413 B.C. at Alcibiades's advice!

Samos (25) - Island in the east-central Aegean originally conquered by Pericles but serving as a strategic base for the Athenian navy during the Peloponnesian Wars. When an oligarchic revolution occurs in Athens, Samos becomes the base-in-exile of the democratic faction, which Alcibiades leads triumphantly home. 

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Here we get deep into the weeds of Thucydides. Who was he? Why are his writings so profound? What can we tell about the history of our planet from his writings?

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Check out the full show notes here.

Pericles brought Athens to its peak, but ended his own life in a plague at the beginning of a long war with Sparta. 

How does one get into the think tank game? Van explains. How does one use war-games to manipulate policy? Van explains. Why is our historical imagination limited to Greek and Roman history? Again, Van explains. What happens to the US-South Korea alliance when Trump threatens troop withdrawal?  You get it.  

Chicago Council on Global Affairs Report: https://www.thechicagocouncil.org/publication/troop-withdrawal-likely-undermine-south-korean-public-support-alliance-united-states

James Palmer on the Thucydides' Trap: https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/07/28/oh-god-not-the-peloponnesian-war-again/

Matt Duss Tweet: https://twitter.com/mattduss/status/1289162903124418561

Jeffrey Meiser Tweet: https://twitter.com/jwmeiser/status/1290431319030165505

Yuna Wong Tweet: https://twitter.com/YunaHuhWong/status/1290287068149616640?s=20

Contributors: Jake Dellow, Pete McKenzie, Ciara Mitchell, Gaby Magnuson

Episode Notes

Preble Hall is produced by the United States Naval Academy Museum

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https://twitter.com/usnamuseum

A History of the Navy in 100 Objects from the USNA Museum

https://www.usna.edu/100Objects/index.php

Host: Dr. Claude Berube, Director, USNA Museum, US Naval Academy

Date recorded: 29 June 2020