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    Anne Applebaum on What Liberals Misunderstand About Authoritarianism

    enMay 17, 2022

    Podcast Summary

    • The relevance of Hannah Arendt's insights into liberalism's blind spotModernity and technology can create loneliness and disconnection, making individuals more susceptible to propaganda and authoritarian rule

      Hannah Arendt, a Pulitzer Prize-winning historian and journalist, continues to be relevant today due to her insights into liberalism's blind spot: its inability to understand the appeal of illiberalism. Arendt's classic book, "The Origins of Totalitarianism," published in 1951, explores what makes societies vulnerable to takeovers by totalitarian regimes, and she argues that liberal political and economic systems can paradoxically create those vulnerabilities. One key factor she identifies is the increasing loneliness and disconnection from others that modernity and technology can bring about. Arendt believed that individuals who are cut off from institutions, groups, and other people are more susceptible to propaganda and authoritarian rule. Despite some criticisms of her simplistic view of human nature, her ideas remain startlingly relevant today, as technology and economic changes continue to increase separations between people.

    • The need for belonging and shared meaning in societiesHannah Arendt believed that humans have a deep need to belong to a community or narrative, whether real or imagined, and that this vulnerability can make societies more susceptible to totalitarian rule. Online communities can fulfill this need, but their power can also be more compelling than reality, making individuals more susceptible to manipulation.

      According to Hannah Arendt, loneliness and the lack of a sense of belonging are major vulnerabilities for societies, making them more susceptible to totalitarian rule. Arendt believed that humans have a deep need to belong to a community or narrative, whether it's literal or metaphysical. In the modern world, this need can be fulfilled through online communities, as seen with QAnon, where people feel a strong sense of belonging and reinforcement by sharing beliefs and special knowledge. Arendt also noted that this need for belonging and shared meaning is not a new phenomenon, but rather a fundamental aspect of human nature. However, she warned that the power of these imagined communities and narratives can be more compelling than reality itself, making individuals more susceptible to manipulation by propaganda and other forms of deception.

    • Online communities can intensify feelings of isolation and vulnerabilityEasy access to online communities can lead individuals to seek out radical groups, increasing societal vulnerability to extremist ideologies and erosion of democratic values

      The digital world, while offering a potential solution to loneliness through online communities, can also intensify feelings of isolation and vulnerability. The ease of creating and joining online communities can lead individuals to seek out radical and conspiratorial movements as a substitute for real human connection. These movements, whether online or in real life, offer a sense of belonging and a cohesive ideology that can be appealing to those feeling disconnected. However, this vulnerability can be exploited by authoritarian or totalitarian regimes, as these movements can provide fertile ground for the spread of extremist ideologies and the erosion of democratic values. The phenomenon of individuals being easily attracted to such movements due to feelings of nonbelonging and hostility in the larger society can ultimately weaken societal resilience against political challenges.

    • Extremist movements offer a sense of belonging and rule-breaking appealDisillusioned individuals join extremist movements for a sense of belonging and to challenge societal norms, drawn by perceived elite corruption and hypocrisy

      Extremist political movements, like JOBIC in Hungary, gain popularity by offering a sense of belonging and a chance to break societal taboos. These movements often attack existing morality and present themselves as an alternative, outside community. People are drawn to this community because they feel disillusioned with the current societal norms and see the movement's rule-breaking as a refreshing departure. Arendt's analysis of this phenomenon is particularly insightful, explaining how the elite's perceived duplicity and corruption can lead them to support such movements. The more corrupt and hypocritical society appears, the more appealing these movements become. Trump's appeal during his presidency was rooted in this idea of smashing the status quo and destroying perceived corruption, which resonated with many people.

    • Trump's disregard for ethical norms fueled distrust towards political establishmentDuring Trump's presidency, many felt a deep distrust towards the political establishment due to perceived hypocrisy and corruption. This fueled a desire for change and rejection of established moral frameworks, which the populist right capitalized on.

      During the Trump presidency, many people felt a deep sense of distrust towards the political establishment and perceived it as corrupt. Trump's open disregard for ethical norms resonated with some of his supporters, who saw him as exposing the hypocrisy of the elite. This feeling of being morally judged by morally suspect elites fueled a desire for change and a rejection of established moral frameworks. The populist right, in particular, capitalized on this sentiment, creating an image of an amorphous elite that was hypocritical and corrupt. However, it's important to note that not all members of the elite were the same, and some were even part of the populist movement themselves. Ultimately, the power of this feeling lies in the perception that the mechanisms assigning virtue and morality are controlled by those who do not live up to those standards themselves.

    • The power of cynicism and gullibility in autocratic regimesAutocratic regimes exploit the coexistence of cynicism and gullibility to manipulate and confuse populations, making them more susceptible to propaganda and control.

      The intersection of cynicism and gullibility plays a significant role in the success of autocratic regimes and authoritarian movements. These two seemingly opposing emotions coexist and are deliberately cultivated by those in power to create confusion and doubt among the population. This leaves people feeling powerless and uncertain, making them more susceptible to manipulation. Autocratic regimes exploit this by offering contradictory information, creating a sense of cynicism and nihilism, while also taking advantage of people's gullibility. This mindset, which can be summarized as "everything is possible and nothing is true," is a precondition for autocracy and challenges the liberal belief that people are reasonable and that truth can be established through rational argument. Ultimately, this reverses the rules under which traditional liberal politics operate, and those who can lie effectively are seen as the most capable leaders in a dog-eat-dog world.

    • The Limits of Liberal SocietiesModern liberal societies, while successful, overlook human desires for the irrational and a sense of belonging, leading to tension between economic arguments and deeper human needs.

      The success of modern liberal societies, particularly the United States since the 2nd World War, has led to an assumption that we've found the best of all possible worlds. However, this assumption overlooks the other impulses in human nature, such as the attraction to the irrational and a desire to challenge existing systems. This insight goes beyond liberalism itself and challenges the dominant view that politics is solely about self-interest or economic prosperity. Instead, people are willing to sacrifice material gain for larger movements and may be drawn to spectacle and a sense of belonging. This tension between economic arguments and deeper human desires has become increasingly relevant in recent years.

    • Effective leadership goes beyond economics and policyLeaders who tap into deeper human desires for belonging and significant change resonate more with people than those who focus solely on economics and policy.

      Effective leadership goes beyond economics and policy wonkery. While these elements are important, they don't always resonate with people's deeper desires for belonging to a movement or being part of a significant change. This was evident during the eras of Tony Blair and Bill Clinton, but also in the charismatic appeal of politicians like Barack Obama and Donald Trump. The latter understood the importance of tapping into the communal soul and the need for something bigger than policy-making. This is not a universally desired trait in politics, but it can be especially potent during periods of technocratic governance and political boredom. Ultimately, politics is about more than just self-interest and policy; it's about stories, myths, and communion that help people thrive. Liberalism, when it focuses solely on technocratic governance, risks losing touch with these deeper human needs.

    • The power of inspiration and unity in politicsLiberal values inspire unity and a sense of mission, but the appeal of fear and heightened stakes can also be manipulated for political gain.

      The appeal of liberalism in politics is not just about education and tolerance, but also about inspiring unity and a sense of mission, even if that mission involves facing life or death stakes. The example of Ukrainian President Zelensky demonstrates this, as his defense of liberal values during a military campaign has resonated deeply with people around the world. However, it can be challenging to sustain this inspiration during times of normalcy, leading some to crave the abnormality and heightened stakes of conflict. Authoritarians and totalitarians have historically understood this and have used it to their advantage, creating a sense of threat and urgency to rally support. This appeal to fear and the need for a shared mission can be powerful, but it's important to remember that it can also be manipulated and used to justify harmful actions. Ultimately, understanding the importance of myth and inspiration in politics, while being mindful of their potential pitfalls, can help us navigate the complexities of governance and societal change.

    • Putin's War in Ukraine: A Distraction from Domestic IssuesPutin used the conflict in Ukraine as a means to divert attention from internal problems, bolster national unity, and reinforce his anti-Western stance, but the long-term sustainability of this narrative depends on his ability to mitigate the economic and human costs of the war.

      Russian President Vladimir Putin initiated the war in Ukraine as a means to distract from domestic issues, create a rally-around-the-flag sentiment, and reinforce his anti-Western narrative. Putin portrayed Ukraine as a symbol of external degeneracy and violence, and the conflict served to strengthen NATO and further alienate Russia from the West. Despite the geostrategic failure of this approach, Putin may still benefit narratively, as the conflict reinforces the worldview he has presented to Russians. However, as the costs of the war continue to rise, there is a risk that Russians may begin to question the official narrative and demand accountability. Ultimately, the sustainability of Putin's narrative will depend on his ability to manage the economic and human costs of the war and maintain public support.

    • The Contradiction Between Soviet Narrative and RealityThe inspiring yet unsustainable communist utopia promise eroded people's conviction, leading to the Soviet Union's collapse. The current world faces challenges in political change, innovation, and inter-echo chamber communication, which could hinder problem-solving effectiveness.

      The Soviet Union's downfall was due in part to the contradiction between its inspiring yet economically unsustainable narrative and reality. The communist utopia promise no longer resonated with the people, leading to the erosion of conviction and eventual collapse. Arendt's analysis of the strength of totalitarian movements and the weakness of liberal democracies may have underestimated the creativity and innovation of Western societies. However, the current world raises concerns as we face challenges in political change, innovation, and inter-echo chamber communication, which could hinder our ability to define and solve problems effectively.

    • Focusing on practical governance solutionsEffective governance and delivery of practical solutions are crucial for addressing societal conflicts and preventing opposing movements from escalating. Historical examples show that practical projects can bring people together and build trust, even in times of cultural wars and existential arguments.

      Effective governance and delivery on practical solutions are key to addressing societal conflicts and keeping opposing movements at bay. The speaker expresses concern over the breakdown of systems like universities and news media, and how liberalism may need to respond to mythic stories spread by these external challenging movements. However, instead of proposing a counter story, the speaker suggests that liberal democracies and governments should focus on what they do well: governing. The speaker references historical examples, such as community projects in Northern Ireland, where people were able to argue about practical solutions without resorting to violence. The speaker acknowledges the challenges of getting people interested in practical governance in a time of cultural wars and existential arguments, and wonders if the attention span has shifted towards online or theoretical conflicts. Despite these challenges, the speaker believes that practical solutions, like infrastructure projects, can still make a difference and potentially earn credit.

    • The complex dynamic of federal infrastructure projects and recognitionPeople engage more with tangible projects than abstract conflicts, three books recommended for deeper insights into American history and politics: 'Cuba, an American History', 'The Lincoln Highway', and 'Origins of Totalitarianism'.

      The tension between the federal government's ability to execute modest infrastructure projects versus the desire for recognition and credit for larger-scale initiatives creates a complex dynamic in American politics. The speaker suggests that people are more engaged with and appreciate concrete, tangible projects rather than abstract conflicts. He recommends three books to delve deeper into these topics: "Cuba, an American History" by Ada Ferrer for its exploration of Cuba's intricate relationship with the United States, "The Lincoln Highway" by Amor Towles for its captivating portrayal of 1950s America, and Hannah Arendt's "Origins of Totalitarianism" for its insights into mass movements, propaganda, and dictatorship. These books offer unique perspectives on American history and politics, providing a richer understanding of the complexities and nuances of the subject matter.

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    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

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    Movement” by Holly Herndon

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    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Jack Hamilton.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 24, 2024

    A Conservative Futurist and a Supply-Side Liberal Walk Into a Podcast …

    A Conservative Futurist and a Supply-Side Liberal Walk Into a Podcast …

    “The Jetsons” premiered in 1962. And based on the internal math of the show, George Jetson, the dad, was born in 2022. He’d be a toddler right now. And we are so far away from the world that show imagined. There were a lot of future-trippers in the 1960s, and most of them would be pretty disappointed by how that future turned out.

    So what happened? Why didn’t we build that future?

    The answer, I think, lies in the 1970s. I’ve been spending a lot of time studying that decade in my work, trying to understand why America is so bad at building today. And James Pethokoukis has also spent a lot of time looking at the 1970s, in his work trying to understand why America is less innovative today than it was in the postwar decades. So Pethokoukis and I are asking similar questions, and circling the same time period, but from very different ideological vantages.

    Pethokoukis is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, and author of the book “The Conservative Futurist: How to Create the Sci-Fi World We Were Promised.” He also writes a newsletter called Faster, Please! “The two screamingly obvious things that we stopped doing is we stopped spending on science, research and development the way we did in the 1960s,” he tells me, “and we began to regulate our economy as if regulation would have no impact on innovation.”

    In this conversation, we debate why the ’70s were such an inflection point; whether this slowdown phenomenon is just something that happens as countries get wealthier; and what the government’s role should be in supporting and regulating emerging technologies like A.I.

    Mentioned:

    U.S. Infrastructure: 1929-2017” by Ray C. Fair

    Book Recommendations

    Why Information Grows by Cesar Hidalgo

    The Expanse series by James S.A. Corey

    The American Dream Is Not Dead by Michael R. Strain

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 21, 2024

    The Disastrous Relationship Between Israel, Palestinians and the U.N.

    The Disastrous Relationship Between Israel, Palestinians and the U.N.

    The international legal system was created to prevent the atrocities of World War II from happening again. The United Nations partitioned historic Palestine to create the states of Israel and Palestine, but also left Palestinians with decades of false promises. The war in Gaza — and countless other conflicts, including those in Syria, Yemen and Ethiopia — shows how little power the U.N. and international law have to protect civilians in wartime. So what is international law actually for?

    Aslı Ü. Bâli is a professor at Yale Law School who specializes in international and comparative law. “The fact that people break the law and sometimes get away with it doesn’t mean the law doesn’t exist and doesn’t have force,” she argues.

    In this conversation, Bâli traces the gap between how international law is written on paper and the realpolitik of how countries decide to follow it, the U.N.’s unique role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from its very beginning, how the laws of war have failed Gazans but may be starting to change the conflict’s course, and more.

    Mentioned:

    With Schools in Ruins, Education in Gaza Will Be Hobbled for Years” by Liam Stack and Bilal Shbair

    Book Recommendations:

    Imperialism, Sovereignty and the Making of International Law by Antony Anghie

    Justice for Some by Noura Erakat

    Worldmaking After Empire by Adom Getachew

    The Constitutional Bind by Aziz Rana

    The United Nations and the Question of Palestine by Ardi Imseis

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Carole Sabouraud.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 17, 2024

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