Podcast Summary
Nicole Hannah Jones and Ta-Nehisi Coates Discuss Importance of Understanding American History: Two renowned journalists and authors, Nicole Hannah Jones and Ta-Nehisi Coates, are joining Howard University to teach future writers and thinkers about American history. They discussed the current debate over critical race theory and its significance in shaping perceptions and power dynamics.
Nicole Hannah Jones and Ta-Nehisi Coates, two renowned journalists and authors, are joining the faculty at Howard University to teach the next generation of writers and thinkers. But their conversation with Ezra Klein went beyond this news peg, delving into the importance of understanding and teaching American history. They discussed the current battle over critical race theory and why this fight over the past is more electric than debates about the present. The stakes are high, as the story a country tells about itself can change power dynamics and shape perceptions. The conversation touched on topics like the 16/19 project, the role of American exceptionalism, and the relationship between patriotism and realism. For both Jones and Coates, teaching is an essential intellectual exercise that keeps their minds fresh and allows them to engage with the next generation of writers and thinkers. By imparting the importance of immediacy and craft to students, they hope to inspire the next wave of journalists and storytellers.
Empowering the next generation of journalists for a healthy democracy: The Journalism and Democracy Center aims to equip the next generation of journalists with the skills to cover politics truthfully and accurately, contributing to a healthy democracy
Journalism plays a crucial role in maintaining a functional democracy by informing the public and holding powerful people accountable. The current state of journalism is a cause for concern, as it is not living up to its potential in this critical moment for the country. The connection between race and democracy is particularly important, as historically, black people have been marginalized from the political discourse. However, in recent years, there has been a shift towards greater representation and access to the tools of journalism for black journalists and writers. This is an opportunity to bolster the "firewall of our democracy" by training the next generation of journalists to do impactful, honest reporting. The Journalism and Democracy Center, which Nicole is building, reflects this vision of equipping journalists to cover politics truthfully and accurately, ensuring a healthy democracy.
Understanding history essential for effective journalism: Skepticism and recognizing power's role in shaping narratives, challenging dominant historical narratives, and giving voice to underrepresented communities are crucial for effective journalism.
Journalism and history are interconnected, and understanding history is crucial for effective journalism. The speakers emphasized the importance of skepticism and recognizing the role of power in shaping narratives. They criticized the current approach to political reporting, which often assumes democratic institutions will hold and fails to consider the historical context of racial inequality and voter suppression. They also highlighted the need to challenge the dominant historical narratives and give voice to underrepresented communities. The speakers used the example of police reporting, where official reports have often been disputed by citizen journalists and social media. They concluded that journalism should not give unquestioned authority to power and instead strive for a more critical and inclusive approach.
Journalists' perspective on a country's history influences coverage: Journalists' beliefs about a country's history shape their reporting. Acknowledging its complexity and recognizing both good and evil actions leads to fairer reporting.
The way journalists cover a country's history and its people is significantly influenced by the beliefs and presumptions they hold about that history. If journalists view a country's history as mostly good, they will cover it in a positive light. However, if they recognize that the history is complex and includes both good and evil actions, they will approach the coverage differently. This perspective is crucial because it can impact how journalists report on current events and the people involved in them. The discussion also touched upon the reaction to critiques of the past versus the present. The speaker noted that critiques of the past, such as the 16/19 project, which challenged the mythology of American exceptionalism, elicited a stronger response than critiques of the present. This is because many people, regardless of political affiliation, have a vested interest in the mythology of American greatness and may feel uncomfortable when it is challenged. Therefore, it is essential for journalists to approach their work with a critical and nuanced understanding of history, recognizing that it is complex and includes both good and evil actions. This approach will lead to more accurate and fair reporting on current events and the people involved in them.
Challenging the Traditional Narrative of American History: The 1619 Project shifts focus from individual actions to systemic roots, challenging traditional beliefs of American history as a land of freedom and democracy, and forcing us to reconsider our identity as Americans.
The 1619 Project challenges the traditional narrative of American history by placing black people at the center and displacing white people from the position of American greatness. This perspective, as the speaker explains, is a difficult pill to swallow for many people as it challenges the long-held belief of America as a land of freedom and democracy. The project goes beyond critiquing individual actions and instead focuses on the systemic roots of American history, including the role of slavery and its impact on the founding fathers and the deadliest war in American history. This new perspective forces us to reconsider our identity as Americans and question what makes us special if not our unique democratic history. The political opposition to the project is not based on factual inaccuracies but rather the discomfort of this new perspective that decentralizes individual goodness and highlights the larger system at work.
Preserving American exceptionalism and maintaining power structures: Opposition to teaching children about America's racist past stems from a desire to preserve a narrative of American exceptionalism and maintain power structures, often leading to efforts to suppress voter rights and justify discriminatory policies.
The opposition to teaching children about the true history of racism in America stems from a desire to preserve a narrative of American exceptionalism and maintain power structures. This pushback, fueled by the fear of acknowledging America's racist past, is often accompanied by efforts to suppress voter rights and justify discriminatory policies. The conversation around the 1619 Project and critical race theory highlights the importance of acknowledging and confronting America's history, rather than obscuring or hiding it. The fear is that children will learn that their nation is deeply rooted in racism and that they are complicit in its legacy. However, it's essential to recognize that this conversation opens up opportunities for growth and understanding, rather than closing doors. It's a constant struggle to address the complexities of America's history and its ongoing impact, but a necessary one for creating a more equitable society.
Acknowledging complexities and shaping the future: Understand history's complexities, acknowledge past's impact, strive for progress, and recognize diverse roles in pushing for change.
Understanding history requires acknowledging its complexities and recognizing that individuals and groups, including African Americans, have both noble and problematic aspects. The future lies in teaching a more balanced and honest history, acknowledging the past's impact on the present, and striving to live up to our highest ideals. No one is responsible for the actions of their ancestors, but we are responsible for shaping the future. By acknowledging our past, we can work towards creating a country that truly embodies its majestic ideals. The discussion also emphasized the importance of recognizing the role of diverse groups, including biracial and multiracial citizens, in pushing for progress throughout history.
Recognizing America's Unfinished Democracy: America's history as a multiethnic democracy is inconsistent and unfinished, emphasizing the importance of acknowledging the humanity of all people and addressing political challenges to create a more just and equitable society
America, as portrayed in the media during the late 1990s, was often viewed as a finished product with a great economy and a stable democracy. However, the speaker argues that there's an invigorating aspect to recognizing that America still faces significant political challenges and that its history as a multiethnic democracy is inconsistent and unfinished. The speaker emphasizes the importance of acknowledging the humanity of all people, even in the face of difficult histories and complex power dynamics. Additionally, the speaker highlights the role of Barack Obama's presidency in illuminating the anti-democratic strain within American politics, which has historically been present but has shifted between the two major parties. Overall, the speaker encourages embracing the ongoing work of creating a more just and equitable society, rather than viewing America as a finished product.
The election of Barack Obama brought racial progress to the forefront but the struggle for basic rights has been ongoing for centuries: The 1619 Project gained relevance during Trump's presidency due to his divisive and exclusionary vision of America, highlighting the importance of an inclusive and truthful understanding of history.
The election of Barack Obama marked a pivotal moment in American history, bringing the issue of democracy and racial progress to the forefront. However, the struggle for basic rights and recognition as citizens has been the defining experience for Black Americans for centuries, making the idea of "exciting struggles" a luxury. The predictable backlash after Obama's presidency, with the rise of Donald Trump, sent a chilling message about the country's values and who can ascend to power. Trump's presidency, in many ways, forced a confrontation with America's troubled racial past, making it easier for arguments challenging traditional narratives to gain traction. The 1619 Project, which began before Trump, highlights this critical period in American history and the ongoing impact of slavery and systemic racism. The project's relevance and resonance during Trump's presidency can be attributed to his embodiment of a divisive and exclusionary vision of America, making the need for a more inclusive and truthful understanding of history more pressing.
The intersection of cultural and political power: The Obama presidency showcased how symbolism and representation can be as impactful as policies or rhetoric in shaping societal perceptions
The intersection of cultural and political power has become increasingly evident in recent years, with the left wielding cultural influence and the right using political power to counteract it. This dynamic was highlighted during the presidency of Donald Trump, whose explicit racist rhetoric challenged societal norms and forced people to confront their own biases. The symbol of a black president, such as Barack Obama, held immense significance for African Americans, but the meaning of his presidency was also shaped by the line of white male presidents that preceded him. The discussion also touched upon the role of iconic figures, like superheroes, in shaping societal perceptions of who is human and who is not. The Obama presidency brought to the forefront the idea that the symbolism of a leader can be just as, if not more, significant than their policies or rhetoric.
Exploring Identity, Privilege, and Representation: Exploring identity, privilege, and representation helps us understand complex constructs and foster a more equitable society.
Identity and privilege are complex constructs. While birthright may grant eligibility to certain privileges, it doesn't guarantee membership or belonging. This is particularly relevant in the context of race and representation, where historical narratives and cultural power play significant roles. Trump's election, for instance, was not solely based on policy but also his ability to tap into cultural anxieties and desires. Some white voters saw Obama's election as a resolution to racial issues, making them less interested in discussing racial inequality. However, this perspective ignores the ongoing struggles faced by marginalized communities. In response, artists like Ta-Nehisi Coates are using various mediums to challenge limiting narratives and broaden the imaginarium. By exploring the intricacies of identity, privilege, and representation, we can foster a deeper understanding of our world and work towards creating a more equitable society.
Impact of Imagination on the Younger Generation: Recognizing the power of imagination in shaping policies and societal norms, we should focus on storytelling to influence the next generation's perception of the world and what's possible.
The formation of imagination in the younger generation plays a crucial role in shaping policies and societal norms. The symbols and narratives we expose them to significantly impact their understanding of the world and what's possible. The example given was the influence of the Black Panther movie on white kids dressing up as the character. While symbols can be co-opted, their power lies in their ability to communicate ideas and shape perceptions. The speaker emphasized the importance of acknowledging the role of imagination in politics and journalism, and advocated for a focus on storytelling to influence the ongoing battle for shaping the next generation's imagination. A favorite piece of nonfiction journalism mentioned was Ta-Nehisi Coates' "Fear of a Black President," which was praised for its impactful content and structure.
The Power of Exceptional Journalism: Exceptional journalism leaves a lasting impact on readers, with gripping stories that inspire urgency and fear. Talent, intelligence, and constant learning are crucial for success.
Exceptional journalism can leave a lasting impact on readers. Catherine Schulz's piece in The New Yorker about the impending tsunami in the Pacific Northwest is a prime example. The story, which includes detailed reporting and investigative work, is so gripping that it leaves readers with a sense of urgency and fear. Schulz's ability to describe the potential disaster in a step-by-step manner, while also highlighting the reasons for our inaction, is truly remarkable. Another piece that changed the speaker's perspective as a journalist is Sherry Fink's "Five Days at Memorial," which investigates what happened in hospitals during Hurricane Katrina. Fink's unique background as both a medical doctor and a journalist allowed her to provide sensitive and insightful reporting. The speaker emphasizes that talent and intelligence are important, but not the only factors for success in journalism. The challenges and complexities of the field are significant, and constant learning and adaptation are necessary.
The importance of questioning and persisting in journalism: Perseverance, critical thinking, and context-building are essential skills for journalists to uncover the truth and challenge deeply rooted systems.
Intelligence and talent alone are not enough to excel in journalism. The ability to persist and question deeply rooted systems is crucial. The speaker, a journalist and professor, emphasizes the importance of going beyond imagination and intellect to actually do the work, even when it feels challenging or dark. She also shares how her daughter has taught her the power of questioning and explaining complex systems in journalism, rather than just accepting them as they are. The speaker's experiences highlight the importance of perseverance, critical thinking, and context-building in journalism.
Staying open in journalism: Humility and acknowledging value of criticism: Maintaining openness to new ideas and reasonable critique is crucial for strong journalism. Humility and acknowledging the value of criticism while separating truth from lies are essential qualities for journalists.
Humility and openness are essential qualities for journalists. As a journalist, it's important to admit when we don't know the answer and to remain open to new information and ideas. However, in today's digital age, staying open can be challenging with the constant flood of information and criticism. Nicole and Tom shared their experiences of managing this challenge. Tom shared how he had to shut off social media to avoid being overwhelmed by the noise. Nicole emphasized the importance of acknowledging the value of criticism while separating truth from lies. Both agreed that maintaining an openness to new ideas and reasonable critique is crucial for strong journalism.
Navigating authenticity on social media with a large following: Maintaining authenticity on social media requires self-reflection, openness to criticism, and prioritizing trusted communities for constructive dialogue. Reading widely and understanding opposing arguments are essential for staying sharp and having great arguments.
Maintaining an authentic and open presence on social media, particularly when one has a large following, can be challenging and lead to a distorted perception of one's personality. Nicole Hannah Jones shares her experience of how the Twitter platform has changed over the years, making it harder to have meaningful conversations and be vulnerable. She found that she needed to return to a smaller, trusted community for constructive criticism and dialogue. Jones also emphasizes the importance of being self-reflective and open to criticism while maintaining a balance between engaging on social media and focusing on her work. She believes that reading widely and understanding opposing arguments are essential for staying sharp and having great arguments. Ultimately, she recognizes the need to prioritize her core group of friends and colleagues for honest feedback and maintaining her authentic self.
Expanding knowledge and fostering constructive discussions: Read widely, engage in thoughtful discussions, and learn from diverse perspectives to reconcile with complexities in history and the world
Engaging in arguments with people who don't share the same good faith can bring out the worst in us. To avoid this, it's essential to have friends who provide constructive criticism and to read widely, even if the perspectives don't align with our own. Two recommended books that can help in understanding American history and its complexities are W.E.B. Du Bois' "Black Reconstruction" and Laurent Dubois' "Avengers of the New World: The History of the Haitian Revolution." Additionally, Neil Gaiman's "Sandman Overture" is a graphic novel recommendation, and a correction was made regarding the number of early presidents who owned enslaved people (12 out of the first 18, not 12 out of the first 15). Engaging in thoughtful and open-minded discussions, as well as expanding our knowledge through reading, can help us reconcile with the complexities of history and the world around us.
