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    Employers Are Begging for Workers. Maybe That’s a Good Thing.

    enJune 08, 2021

    Podcast Summary

    • The narrative around labor shortages and unwilling workersPolicymakers debate cutting unemployment benefits, but it's crucial to consider workers' perspective, including better wages and working conditions. The economy's reliance on poverty and low wages for cheap goods and services is highlighted in this debate.

      The narrative around the economy and employment is heavily influenced by storytelling, and whose stories get told and believed matters. A new narrative emerging is that of labor shortages and unwilling workers, leading some policymakers to cut unemployment benefits early. While there are valid concerns, such as potential inflation or business closures, it's crucial to consider the workers' perspective, including their desire for better wages and working conditions. The economy's reliance on poverty and low wages for cheap goods and services becomes more explicit in this debate. Economist Jamila Michener's insights on race, poverty, and public policy add valuable context to this discussion. Ultimately, the question remains: whose problems do we take seriously and prioritize in economic policy?

    • Understanding workers' experiences and needsFocus on people's reasons for not accepting jobs and address any barriers to labor market participation, ensuring individuals can make informed choices for dignified and safe work.

      The current economic narrative focuses too much on employers' struggles and not enough on the experiences and needs of ordinary workers. While it's important to acknowledge the challenges businesses face, we should prioritize understanding why people are turning down available jobs and addressing any barriers they face in the labor market. This people-centric approach is crucial, especially during times of economic uncertainty, as it allows individuals to choose work that enables them to live with dignity and safety. The current situation, where some people can afford to turn down low-wage jobs due to unemployment benefits and stimulus checks, is not necessarily a failure of policy but a success in providing a safety net. The ultimate goal should be to build an economy where people have the freedom to choose work that meets their needs and doesn't put them or their families at risk.

    • Poverty fuels economic conditions, affecting those not living in itRecognize poverty's role in creating a wider marketplace, consider impacts on individuals, and strive for equitable economic actions.

      Poverty serves as a tool for shaping societal economic conditions, often benefiting those who are not living in poverty. This exploitative relationship is evident in the desire for cheap and readily available goods and services, which can lead to a lack of concern for the impact on those living in poverty. The speaker encourages a more mindful approach to consumption, recognizing the role of poverty in creating a wider marketplace of options and considering the individuals who contribute to these benefits in our daily lives. Ultimately, it's essential to acknowledge the societal level implications of poverty and strive for actions that create a more equitable economic system.

    • Political response prioritizes privileges over povertyDespite long-term negative impacts, societal focus is on privileges, and political action prioritizes crises over persistent poverty due to power dynamics

      Our society values certain privileges, comforts, and economic stability more than addressing issues like poverty and low wages, even though these issues have long-term negative impacts on individuals and communities. The political response to economic problems depends on who is affected, with crises like inflation or deficits receiving more attention and action than persistent poverty or low wages. This dynamic reflects political inequality and is not limited to gender or race. If those most affected by economic inequality had more political power and influence, the situation might be different. However, from a democratic theory perspective, this phenomenon raises important questions about the functioning of our political system.

    • Navigating complex government structures for changeFederalism creates challenges for low-income individuals and groups to advocate for their needs, as they must navigate multiple levels of government. Beliefs about deservingness and fairness can also hinder support for policies that could benefit them, contributing to a persistent divide between 'haves' and 'have nots' in American politics.

      The American political system, with its complex structure of multiple levels of government, makes it particularly challenging for low-income individuals and groups to effectively advocate for their needs and desires. Federalism, the system of government that divides power between national and subnational units, can create confusion and difficulty for those trying to navigate the various levels of government to bring about change. Additionally, some people living in poverty may not support policies that could benefit them due to beliefs about deservingness and fairness. These factors contribute to the persistent fear and division between the "haves" and "have nots" in American politics, despite lower political participation among those who stand to gain the most from government programs.

    • The concept of deservingness shapes perceptions towards social policiesUnderstanding the power of deservingness politics is crucial for implementing policies that prioritize equality and access for all.

      The concept of deservingness, whether racialized or not, plays a significant role in shaping people's perceptions and attitudes towards social policies and those who benefit from them. This notion of deservingness is not limited to the wealthy or those at the top, but it permeates through various income levels, creating a divide and hindering solidarity among different groups. The left often underestimates the power of this politics of fairness and deservingness, which can be seen as a barrier to implementing policies that prioritize equality and access for all. While acknowledging the importance of hard work and earning, it's crucial to recognize that there are essential resources and opportunities that everyone should have access to as a basic right. The challenge lies in balancing the principles of deservingness with a countervailing set of principles that emphasizes the importance of shared humanity and the decent treatment of all individuals, regardless of their circumstances.

    • Reconsidering priorities for human dignityPolicies should focus on addressing human weakness and frailty, not just hard work and deservingness, to ensure everyone has access to basic necessities.

      Our society needs to reconsider its priorities and make more room for addressing human dignity, weakness, and frailty in our economic policies. Currently, our politics primarily focuses on hard work and deservingness, often to the exclusion of other important factors. This results in a significant imbalance and leaves many people, especially those living in poverty, facing dire consequences for the same human weaknesses and errors that everyone else experiences. Proposed policies like universal basic income and negative income taxes could help address this issue, but the cultural attitudes towards those who would benefit from these policies may pose the biggest challenge to their implementation. It's essential to acknowledge and address the human condition's inherent frailty and vulnerability to ensure everyone has access to basic necessities like food, shelter, and healthcare.

    • Challenges in implementing effective social policiesDeep-rooted societal beliefs hinder transformative policies like UBI. Pairing policies with measures ensuring recipients contribute to society can help overcome these challenges.

      While evidence and data are crucial in implementing effective social policies like Universal Basic Income (UBI), the political landscape often presents significant challenges. The example of Housing First in Utah illustrates this, as the policy, which proved successful in reducing homelessness, was eventually discontinued due to societal stigmas against giving people something for nothing. To make transformative changes, we need to challenge these deep-rooted beliefs and consider pairing policies like UBI with measures that ensure recipients are contributing to society, such as a basic jobs guarantee. While we work towards societal shifts, we should continue implementing policies that alleviate suffering, recognizing that there will be limitations until deeper issues are addressed.

    • Policies like negative income tax with jobs guarantee are improvements but may hinder progress towards UBIFocus on policies that complement and build towards a future with UBI, like Medicaid expansion, but consider potential downsides and continue pushing for more progressive policies.

      While policies like a negative income tax with a jobs guarantee may be a compromise and an improvement over the status quo, they may perpetuate outdated ways of thinking and hinder the progress towards more socially productive policies like UBI. Instead, we should focus on policies that complement and build towards a future where better policies can be passed. For example, Medicaid expansion can be politically empowering by providing people with resources and changing their relationship with the government, but it's important to consider the potential downsides and the importance of continuing to push for more progressive policies. Ultimately, the goal should be to use policy as a tool to build a path towards a world where even better policies can be passed.

    • Medicaid's Impact on Political EngagementAccess to essential resources like healthcare through programs like Medicaid can foster political engagement, but negative experiences with application and utilization processes can discourage it.

      Access to essential resources like healthcare through programs such as Medicaid can significantly impact an individual's engagement with the political system. This engagement can lead to increased awareness and concern for policy matters. However, a negative experience with the application and utilization process can have the opposite effect, reinforcing feelings of disempowerment and disrespect. Medicaid, with its complex application process and potential stigmatization, serves as a prime example. Despite the program's crucial role in saving lives, many beneficiaries report experiencing alienating interactions and bureaucratic hurdles. These experiences can deter people from actively participating in the political process and trusting their governments.

    • The Complexity of Work Reporting Requirements and Drug Testing for Medicaid BeneficiariesThe debate around Medicaid work reporting requirements and drug testing is complex, with some seeing it as necessary for accountability and others as a violation of privacy. The speaker argues that low-income individuals contribute to society through regressive taxes and that we should make accessing essential services easier, not more difficult.

      The debate around work reporting requirements and intrusive procedures like drug testing for Medicaid beneficiaries is complex. While some argue that these measures ensure accountability and deservingness, others see them as an unnecessary burden and a violation of privacy. The speaker, who has written extensively about Medicaid, acknowledges the truth in both perspectives but challenges the notion that those receiving benefits are not contributing to the system. The speaker argues that taxes paid by low-income individuals are regressive and that we all contribute to the common good through various taxes. Instead of making the process of accessing public resources difficult, the speaker suggests that we recognize the interconnectedness of our society and the benefits we derive from each other's access to essential services.

    • Investing in resources for individuals reduces disparities and benefits the communityInvesting in resources to address barriers to employment and improve work conditions leads to a more effective solution than coercive policies.

      Investing in resources to support individuals and reduce disparities not only benefits those individuals but also the community as a whole. Coercive policies, such as using Medicaid or TANF to force people into work, are unnecessary when barriers to employment are addressed. Good work that pays livable wages and provides necessary protections will naturally draw people in. By focusing on improving work conditions and removing barriers, we can effectively solve the problem without resorting to punitive policies. Ultimately, valuing individual liberty and freedom should guide our approach to social and political community.

    • Shift in political and economic discourse towards full employment and worker powerPresident Biden advocates for full employment and worker power, a departure from past decades' focus on workers competing for scarce jobs. Regulatory efforts underway to make this a reality, but opposition from powerful interests is expected.

      There's a shift happening in the political and economic discourse around work and labor, with President Biden and his administration advocating for a focus on full employment and worker power. This represents a departure from the dominant political economy philosophy of the past few decades, which prioritized workers competing for scarce jobs. While some may view this as mere rhetoric, there are also efforts underway within the administration to turn this rhetoric into reality through regulatory processes. This shift in discourse has the potential to change how people think about the economy and make legislative changes more possible in the future. However, it will face significant opposition from powerful and wealthy interests who don't want employers competing for workers in ways that give workers more power. Ultimately, the success of this shift will depend on how effectively those in power can push back against these headwinds.

    • Exploring the Challenges of Reentry and Urban RenewalUnderstanding the long-term effects of societal responses to reentry and urban renewal is crucial for promoting empathy, compassion, and positive change. 'Halfway Home', 'The Root Shock', and 'Poorly' offer valuable insights into these complex issues.

      Our societal responses to people leaving prison and to urban renewal processes can cause significant harm and trauma, and it's essential to consider the long-term effects on individuals and communities. Two books, "Halfway Home" by Ruben Miller and "The Root Shock" by Mindy Fullilove, explore these issues in depth, offering insights into the challenges faced by those reentering society after incarceration and the devastating impact of urban renewal on communities. The third book, "Poorly: What America Gets Wrong About Poverty" by Mark Rank, Lawrence Eppert, and Heather Bullock, debunks common myths about poverty and provides valuable context for understanding this complex issue. Overall, these books highlight the importance of empathy, understanding, and compassionate responses to challenging societal issues.

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    Your Mind Is Being Fracked

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    The steady dings of notifications. The 40 tabs that greet you when you open your computer in the morning. The hundreds of unread emails, most of them spam, with subject lines pleading or screaming for you to click. Our attention is under assault these days, and most of us are familiar with the feeling that gives us — fractured, irritated, overwhelmed.

    D. Graham Burnett calls the attention economy an example of “human fracking”: With our attention in shorter and shorter supply, companies are going to even greater lengths to extract this precious resource from us. And he argues that it’s now reached a point that calls for a kind of revolution. “This is creating conditions that are at odds with human flourishing. We know this,” he tells me. “And we need to mount new forms of resistance.”

    Burnett is a professor of the history of science at Princeton University and is working on a book about the laboratory study of attention. He’s also a co-founder of the Strother School of Radical Attention, which is a kind of grass roots, artistic effort to create a curriculum for studying attention.

    In this conversation, we talk about how the 20th-century study of attention laid the groundwork for today’s attention economy, the connection between changing ideas of attention and changing ideas of the self, how we even define attention (this episode is worth listening to for Burnett’s collection of beautiful metaphors alone), whether the concern over our shrinking attention spans is simply a moral panic, what it means to teach attention and more.

    Mentioned:

    Friends of Attention

    The Battle for Attention” by Nathan Heller

    Powerful Forces Are Fracking Our Attention. We Can Fight Back.” by D. Graham Burnett, Alyssa Loh and Peter Schmidt

    Scenes of Attention edited by D. Graham Burnett and Justin E. H. Smith

    Book Recommendations:

    Addiction by Design by Natasha Dow Schüll

    Objectivity by Lorraine Daston and Peter L. Galison

    The Confidence-Man by Herman Melville

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Elias Isquith. Original music by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
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    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    A.I.-generated art has flooded the internet, and a lot of it is derivative, even boring or offensive. But what could it look like for artists to collaborate with A.I. systems in making art that is actually generative, challenging, transcendent?

    Holly Herndon offered one answer with her 2019 album “PROTO.” Along with Mathew Dryhurst and the programmer Jules LaPlace, she built an A.I. called “Spawn” trained on human voices that adds an uncanny yet oddly personal layer to the music. Beyond her music and visual art, Herndon is trying to solve a problem that many creative people are encountering as A.I. becomes more prominent: How do you encourage experimentation without stealing others’ work to train A.I. models? Along with Dryhurst, Jordan Meyer and Patrick Hoepner, she co-founded Spawning, a company figuring out how to allow artists — and all of us creating content on the internet — to “consent” to our work being used as training data.

    In this conversation, we discuss how Herndon collaborated with a human chorus and her “A.I. baby,” Spawn, on “PROTO”; how A.I. voice imitators grew out of electronic music and other musical genres; why Herndon prefers the term “collective intelligence” to “artificial intelligence”; why an “opt-in” model could help us retain more control of our work as A.I. trawls the internet for data; and much more.

    Mentioned:

    Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt” by Holly Herndon

    xhairymutantx” by Holly Herndon and Mat Dryhurst, for the Whitney Museum of Art

    Fade” by Holly Herndon

    Swim” by Holly Herndon

    Jolene” by Holly Herndon and Holly+

    Movement” by Holly Herndon

    Chorus” by Holly Herndon

    Godmother” by Holly Herndon

    The Precision of Infinity” by Jlin and Philip Glass

    Holly+

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    Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky

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    The Ezra Klein Show
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    A Conservative Futurist and a Supply-Side Liberal Walk Into a Podcast …

    A Conservative Futurist and a Supply-Side Liberal Walk Into a Podcast …

    “The Jetsons” premiered in 1962. And based on the internal math of the show, George Jetson, the dad, was born in 2022. He’d be a toddler right now. And we are so far away from the world that show imagined. There were a lot of future-trippers in the 1960s, and most of them would be pretty disappointed by how that future turned out.

    So what happened? Why didn’t we build that future?

    The answer, I think, lies in the 1970s. I’ve been spending a lot of time studying that decade in my work, trying to understand why America is so bad at building today. And James Pethokoukis has also spent a lot of time looking at the 1970s, in his work trying to understand why America is less innovative today than it was in the postwar decades. So Pethokoukis and I are asking similar questions, and circling the same time period, but from very different ideological vantages.

    Pethokoukis is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, and author of the book “The Conservative Futurist: How to Create the Sci-Fi World We Were Promised.” He also writes a newsletter called Faster, Please! “The two screamingly obvious things that we stopped doing is we stopped spending on science, research and development the way we did in the 1960s,” he tells me, “and we began to regulate our economy as if regulation would have no impact on innovation.”

    In this conversation, we debate why the ’70s were such an inflection point; whether this slowdown phenomenon is just something that happens as countries get wealthier; and what the government’s role should be in supporting and regulating emerging technologies like A.I.

    Mentioned:

    U.S. Infrastructure: 1929-2017” by Ray C. Fair

    Book Recommendations

    Why Information Grows by Cesar Hidalgo

    The Expanse series by James S.A. Corey

    The American Dream Is Not Dead by Michael R. Strain

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 21, 2024

    The Disastrous Relationship Between Israel, Palestinians and the U.N.

    The Disastrous Relationship Between Israel, Palestinians and the U.N.

    The international legal system was created to prevent the atrocities of World War II from happening again. The United Nations partitioned historic Palestine to create the states of Israel and Palestine, but also left Palestinians with decades of false promises. The war in Gaza — and countless other conflicts, including those in Syria, Yemen and Ethiopia — shows how little power the U.N. and international law have to protect civilians in wartime. So what is international law actually for?

    Aslı Ü. Bâli is a professor at Yale Law School who specializes in international and comparative law. “The fact that people break the law and sometimes get away with it doesn’t mean the law doesn’t exist and doesn’t have force,” she argues.

    In this conversation, Bâli traces the gap between how international law is written on paper and the realpolitik of how countries decide to follow it, the U.N.’s unique role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from its very beginning, how the laws of war have failed Gazans but may be starting to change the conflict’s course, and more.

    Mentioned:

    With Schools in Ruins, Education in Gaza Will Be Hobbled for Years” by Liam Stack and Bilal Shbair

    Book Recommendations:

    Imperialism, Sovereignty and the Making of International Law by Antony Anghie

    Justice for Some by Noura Erakat

    Worldmaking After Empire by Adom Getachew

    The Constitutional Bind by Aziz Rana

    The United Nations and the Question of Palestine by Ardi Imseis

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Carole Sabouraud.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 17, 2024

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