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    • Russia shifts to long grind in Donbas regionRussia's focus on a long, attrition war in Donbas follows failed attempts to capture larger cities, underestimation of Ukrainian resistance, and logistical challenges.

      The ongoing war in Ukraine between Russia and Ukraine is entering a new phase, with Russia focusing on a long grind, war of attrition in the eastern Donbas region. This shift comes after earlier attempts to capture larger cities like Kyiv and Chernigiv failed, resulting in significant casualties and logistical challenges for Russia. Putin's forces are now showing more caution, but the conflict is far from over. The Ukrainian resistance has proven to be more effective than anticipated, and the war could drag on for months. The failure of Russia's initial blitzkrieg approach can be attributed to overconfidence in their propaganda and underestimation of the resistance.

    • Ukrainian resilience and courage in the face of conflictAmid ongoing conflict, Ukrainians show resilience and courage, rebuilding and resisting, with a long-term mentality and strong willingness to suffer for their country. Brave first responders risk their lives daily to help the wounded.

      The resilience and courage of the Ukrainian people in the face of ongoing conflict is a testament to their fierce patriotism and unity. Despite living in constant danger and facing random attacks, they continue to resist and rebuild, even in small, quiet ways. This is a result of their long-term struggle against Russian aggression, which has shifted their mentality and given them a strong willingness to suffer and fight for their country. The randomness and cruelty of the attacks only serve to strengthen their resolve. Covering the conflict firsthand, I witnessed the bravery of Ukrainian first responders, who risk their lives every day to help the wounded, even as they face the threat of a "double tap" attack from Russian forces. The small acts of resistance, like planting tulips in the city center, illustrate the elegance and poise of the Ukrainian people in the face of adversity.

    • Managing Fear in High-Risk SituationsRecognize fear, stay focused, and gain experience to effectively manage fear in high-risk situations. Bravery is not the absence of fear, but the ability to use it as motivation to take necessary actions.

      Fear is a natural response to danger, but it's important for journalists and other professionals working in high-risk situations to manage their fear and stay focused on their mission. As shared in the discussion, two young journalists, Alexandra and Vladimir, showed incredible bravery by saving a wounded man's life despite the danger they faced. Fear can be paralyzing, but recognizing it and using it as motivation to take necessary actions can help individuals navigate through challenging situations. The journalists' experiences demonstrate that fear is a normal reaction, but it's crucial to let it sit in the passenger seat rather than taking the driver's seat. By staying focused and composed, they were able to make informed decisions, communicate effectively with their team, and ensure they completed their mission. Moreover, gaining experience and understanding the context of the situation can help individuals better manage their fear and respond appropriately. As the speaker shared, even though she found herself in terrifying situations, she learned to compartmentalize and focus on the task at hand. In summary, managing fear is an essential skill for professionals working in high-risk environments. By recognizing fear, staying focused, and gaining experience, individuals can effectively navigate through dangerous situations and complete their missions.

    • Balancing Trauma and Personal Life in JournalismJournalists in high-stress environments need to process trauma, maintain personal relationships, and prioritize self-care to perform effectively and avoid detachment.

      Being a journalist, especially in high-stress environments like war zones, requires the ability to compartmentalize and balance the emotional connection to the stories and people with the logistical demands of the job. It's essential to process the trauma and stress, whether it's one's own or that of the people whose stories are being told, and not let it completely detach from the important relationships and responsibilities in one's personal life. The presence of family, particularly children, can serve as an anchor that grounds journalists and helps them stay present and open. However, it also requires finding a balance between maintaining that connection and focusing on the demands of the job. Additionally, there is a growing recognition and reduction of the taboo surrounding mental health and trauma in journalism, making it crucial for journalists to prioritize self-care and processing the experiences they encounter in their work.

    • Atrocities against civilians in Ukraine: Mass graves and rapeRussian soldiers commit war crimes against civilians, including mass graves and rape, in Ukraine, highlighting a lack of discipline and morale within the military, necessitating reporting on these stories to the world

      The ongoing conflict in Ukraine has resulted in numerous atrocities against civilians, some of which may be considered war crimes. These incidents include mass graves of non-combatants and instances of rape. The reasons behind these actions are complex and may stem from a lack of discipline and morale within the Russian military. The ease with which some soldiers discuss raping women is particularly disturbing and highlights the dehumanization of those involved in the conflict. Covering these stories is one of the most challenging aspects of reporting on the situation, as it involves bearing witness to people's trauma and helping them share their stories while minimizing their pain. Despite the difficulties, it is essential to amplify these voices to bring attention to the realities of the war.

    • War's Unanswered Questions and Collective TraumaJournalists should continue sharing stories of war to maintain public interest and provide closure for families, allowing for deeper, more personal narratives.

      War leaves a trail of unanswered questions and collective trauma. The loss of a loved one in war is a horrifying experience, leaving families with a murky picture of what happened and often no closure. As time passes, the world may lose interest, but it's essential for journalists to keep sharing stories that resonate and engage people, allowing them to maintain a connection and vested interest in the ongoing conflict. The most powerful storytelling comes from having a little more time to craft a narrative, giving depth to characters and allowing the audience to form a personal connection.

    • Understanding the Complexity of the Ukraine ConflictThe conflict in Ukraine is complex, involving geopolitical jargon, military intervention, and a 'war of information.' Western support continues, with potential for significant intervention, and Ukrainians believe they can win. Recognize the right and wrong, and avoid being alienated by the complexity.

      The ongoing conflict in Ukraine is a complex issue that requires making the stories and events more accessible to ordinary Americans, rather than alienating them with geopolitical jargon. The recent increase in military and economic assistance from the US and its allies, including visits from high-profile political figures, indicates an intensification of Western support. The possibility of significant US intervention or Western intervention remains a topic of debate, with the use of chemical weapons or tactical nukes being potential game-changers. Despite the uncertainty, there is a belief that the Ukrainians could win the war, making it crucial for the West to continue its support. The conflict is also described as a "war of information," with the potential for propaganda and psyops adding to the complexity of the situation. Ultimately, it's important to recognize that there is a clear right and wrong in the conflict and that the actions of Putin have been unjust and detrimental to Ukraine's sovereignty.

    • Navigating Censorship and Propaganda in Reporting on Russia and UkraineUnderstanding Russian perspective is crucial despite censorship and propaganda. Russian state media uses figures like Tucker Carlson to present a divided image of America and promote alternative narratives.

      The ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine, coupled with Russia's censorship laws, presents unique challenges for journalists reporting on the situation. Eliot Higgins, founder of Bellingcat, shares his personal experiences with being banned from Russia and facing attacks from Russian state media after investigating Russian activities. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the Russian perspective despite the censorship and propaganda, as many Russians are still absorbing this information. Russian state media also uses figures like Tucker Carlson to present a divided image of America and promote the idea that not all Americans share the same view on Putin. Overall, the situation requires navigating the complexities of censorship and propaganda, while maintaining a commitment to accurate reporting.

    • Navigating Propaganda in the Russia-Ukraine ConflictJournalists must verify information meticulously amidst disinformation from both Russia and Ukraine, as their propaganda serves different purposes. The conflict's end remains uncertain, and opposition leaders like Alexei Navalny could significantly impact post-Putin Russia.

      The ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine is surrounded by a vast amount of disinformation from both sides, making it crucial for journalists to verify every piece of information meticulously. This chaos and disagreement within America, as portrayed in some media, can create a distorted image of democracy as a nation in turmoil. Ukrainian and Russian propaganda serve different purposes, with morale-building propaganda from Ukraine and attempts to destroy another society from Russia. Journalists must be skeptical and careful when dealing with potential propaganda stories. The conflict's end remains uncertain, with potential scenarios including Putin declaring Mariupol a victory or a prolonged, incremental conflict. The role of opposition leaders like Alexei Navalny in post-Putin Russia is uncertain but could potentially lead to a significant impact.

    • Russian Politics and CNN's FutureRumors about Putin's health and discontent among groups like oligarchs and Silaviki raise questions about Russia's readiness for a post-Putin leader. CNN faces changes with the exit of Jeff Zucker and the shutdown of CNN+, but looks forward to new leadership under Chris Licht.

      The future of Russian politics remains uncertain, especially regarding the potential downfall of Putin. While there are rumors about his health and the discontent of certain groups like the oligarchs and the Silaviki, it's unclear if Russia is ready for a transition to a figure like Nelson Mandela. Putin has taken steps to ensure loyalty from his inner circle, which could make a change difficult. Meanwhile, CNN has faced its own challenges, including the exit of Jeff Zucker and the shutdown of CNN+. Despite these changes, international reporters like Clarissa Ward remain focused on their work, looking forward to the leadership of Chris Licht and the opportunities he may bring to the network.

    • Adapting to Industry ChangesTraditional news organizations like CNN are evolving, focusing on high-quality journalism, and adapting to new platforms for delivery.

      The media industry is undergoing significant changes, and the role of traditional news organizations like CNN is evolving. International correspondents, like the one in the discussion, are focused on producing high-quality journalism and content, knowing that someone will find a way to disseminate it effectively. The future of news delivery may involve new platforms like TikTok, but the need for good journalism remains constant. The interviewee expressed a commitment to staying with CNN, believing that it will continue to be at the forefront of these changes. They also expressed no interest in returning to Fox News. Overall, the discussion highlights the importance of adaptability and quality in the face of industry disruption.

    Recent Episodes from The Ezra Klein Show

    How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work

    How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work

    After President Biden’s rough performance at the first presidential debate, the question of an open convention has roared to the front of Democratic politics. But how would an open convention work? What would be its risks? What would be its rewards? 

    In February, after I first made the case for an open Democratic convention, I interviewed Elaine Kamarck to better understand what an open convention would look like. She literally wrote the book on how we choose presidential candidates, “Primary Politics: Everything You Need to Know About How America Nominates Its Presidential Candidates.” But her background here isn’t just theory. She’s worked on four presidential campaigns and on 10 nominating conventions — for both Democrats and Republicans. She’s a member of the Democratic National Committee’s Rules Committee. And her explanation of the mechanics and dynamics of open conventions was, for me, extremely helpful. It’s even more relevant now than it was then. 

    Mentioned:

    The Lincoln Miracle by Ed Achorn

    Book Recommendations:

    All the King’s Men by Robert Penn Warren

    The Making of the President 1960 by Theodore H. White

    Quiet Revolution by Byron E. Shafer

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Kristin Lin. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    This conversation was recorded in February 2024.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJuly 02, 2024

    What Is the Democratic Party For?

    What Is the Democratic Party For?

    Top Democrats have closed ranks around Joe Biden since the debate. Should they? 

    Mentioned:

    This Isn’t All Joe Biden’s Fault” by Ezra Klein

    Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden” by The Ezra Klein Show

    Here’s How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work” with Elaine Kamarck on The Ezra Klein Show

    The Hollow Parties by Daniel Schlozman and Sam Rosenfeld

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This audio essay was produced by Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Fact-Checking by Jack McCordick and Michelle Harris. Mixing by Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld, Elias Isquith and Aman Sahota. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 30, 2024

    After That Debate, the Risk of Biden Is Clear

    After That Debate, the Risk of Biden Is Clear

    I joined my Times Opinion colleagues Ross Douthat and Michelle Cottle to discuss the debate — and what Democrats might do next.

    Mentioned:

    The Biden and Trump Weaknesses That Don’t Get Enough Attention” by Ross Douthat

    Trump’s Bold Vision for America: Higher Prices!” with Matthew Yglesias on The Ezra Klein Show

    Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden” on The Ezra Klein Show

    Here’s How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work” with Elaine Kamarck on The Ezra Klein Show

    Gretchen Whitmer on The Interview

    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump” with Sam Rosenfeld and Daniel Schlozman on The Ezra Klein Show

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 28, 2024

    Trump’s Bold Vision for America: Higher Prices!

    Trump’s Bold Vision for America: Higher Prices!

    Donald Trump has made inflation a central part of his campaign message. At his rallies, he rails against “the Biden inflation tax” and “crooked Joe’s inflation nightmare,” and promises that in a second Trump term, “inflation will be in full retreat.”

    But if you look at Trump’s actual policies, that wouldn’t be the case at all. Trump has a bold, ambitious agenda to make prices much, much higher. He’s proposing a 10 percent tariff on imported goods, and a 60 percent tariff on products from China. He wants to deport huge numbers of immigrants. And he’s made it clear that he’d like to replace the Federal Reserve chair with someone more willing to take orders from him. It’s almost unimaginable to me that you would run on this agenda at a time when Americans are so mad about high prices. But I don’t think people really know that’s what Trump is vowing to do.

    So to drill into the weeds of Trump’s plans, I decided to call up an old friend. Matt Yglesias is a Bloomberg Opinion columnist and the author of the Slow Boring newsletter, where he’s been writing a lot about Trump’s proposals. We also used to host a policy podcast together, “The Weeds.”

    In this conversation, we discuss what would happen to the economy, especially in terms of inflation, if Trump actually did what he says he wants to do; what we can learn from how Trump managed the economy in his first term; and why more people aren’t sounding the alarm.

    Mentioned:

    Trump’s new economic plan is terrible” by Matthew Yglesias

    Never mind: Wall Street titans shake off qualms and embrace Trump” by Sam Sutton

    How Far Trump Would Go” by Eric Cortellessa

    Book Recommendations:

    Take Back the Game by Linda Flanagan

    1177 B.C. by Eric H. Cline

    The Rise of the G.I. Army, 1940-1941 by Paul Dickson

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Mixing by Isaac Jones, with Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero, Adam Posen and Michael Strain.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 21, 2024

    The Biggest Political Divide Is Not Left vs. Right

    The Biggest Political Divide Is Not Left vs. Right

    The biggest divide in our politics isn’t between Democrats and Republicans, or even left and right. It’s between people who follow politics closely, and those who pay almost no attention to it. If you’re in the former camp — and if you’re reading this, you probably are — the latter camp can seem inscrutable. These people hardly ever look at political news. They hate discussing politics. But they do care about issues and candidates, and they often vote.

    As the 2024 election takes shape, this bloc appears crucial to determining who wins the presidency. An NBC News poll from April found that 15 percent of voters don’t follow political news, and Donald Trump was winning them by 26 points.

    Yanna Krupnikov studies exactly this kind of voter. She’s a professor of communication and media at the University of Michigan and an author, with John Barry Ryan, of “The Other Divide: Polarization and Disengagement in American Politics.” The book examines how the chasm between the deeply involved and the less involved shapes politics in America. I’ve found it to be a helpful guide for understanding one of the most crucial dynamics emerging in this year’s election: the swing to Trump from President Biden among disengaged voters.

    In this conversation, we discuss how politically disengaged voters relate to politics; where they get their information about politics and how they form opinions; and whether major news events, like Trump’s recent conviction, might sway them.

    Mentioned:

    The ‘Need for Chaos’ and Motivations to Share Hostile Political Rumors” by Michael Bang Petersen, Mathias Osmundsen and Kevin Arceneaux

    Hooked by Markus Prior

    The Political Influence of Lifestyle Influencers? Examining the Relationship Between Aspirational Social Media Use and Anti-Expert Attitudes and Beliefs” by Ariel Hasell and Sedona Chinn

    One explanation for the 2024 election’s biggest mystery” by Eric Levitz

    Book Recommendations:

    What Goes Without Saying by Taylor N. Carlson and Jaime E. Settle

    Through the Grapevine by Taylor N. Carlson

    Sorry I’m Late, I Didn’t Want to Come by Jessica Pan

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 18, 2024

    The View From the Israeli Right

    The View From the Israeli Right

    On Tuesday I got back from an eight-day trip to Israel and the West Bank. I happened to be there on the day that Benny Gantz resigned from the war cabinet and called on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to schedule new elections, breaking the unity government that Israel had had since shortly after Oct. 7.

    There is no viable left wing in Israel right now. There is a coalition that Netanyahu leads stretching from right to far right and a coalition that Gantz leads stretching from center to right. In the early months of the war, Gantz appeared ascendant as support for Netanyahu cratered. But now Netanyahu’s poll numbers are ticking back up.

    So one thing I did in Israel was deepen my reporting on Israel’s right. And there, Amit Segal’s name kept coming up. He’s one of Israel’s most influential political analysts and the author of “The Story of Israeli Politics” is coming out in English.

    Segal and I talked about the political differences between Gantz and Netanyahu, the theory of security that’s emerging on the Israeli right, what happened to the Israeli left, the threat from Iran and Hezbollah and how Netanyahu is trying to use President Biden’s criticism to his political advantage.

    Mentioned:

    Biden May Spur Another Netanyahu Comeback” by Amit Segal

    Book Recommendations:

    The Years of Lyndon Johnson Series by Robert A. Caro

    The World of Yesterday by Stefan Zweig

    The Object of Zionism by Zvi Efrat

    The News from Waterloo by Brian Cathcart

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 14, 2024

    The Economic Theory That Explains Why Americans Are So Mad

    The Economic Theory That Explains Why Americans Are So Mad

    There’s something weird happening with the economy. On a personal level, most Americans say they’re doing pretty well right now. And according to the data, that’s true. Wages have gone up faster than inflation. Unemployment is low, the stock market is generally up so far this year, and people are buying more stuff.

    And yet in surveys, people keep saying the economy is bad. A recent Harris poll for The Guardian found that around half of Americans think the S. & P. 500 is down this year, and that unemployment is at a 50-year high. Fifty-six percent think we’re in a recession.

    There are many theories about why this gap exists. Maybe political polarization is warping how people see the economy or it’s a failure of President Biden’s messaging, or there’s just something uniquely painful about inflation. And while there’s truth in all of these, it felt like a piece of the story was missing.

    And for me, that missing piece was an article I read right before the pandemic. An Atlantic story from February 2020 called “The Great Affordability Crisis Breaking America.” It described how some of Americans’ biggest-ticket expenses — housing, health care, higher education and child care — which were already pricey, had been getting steadily pricier for decades.

    At the time, prices weren’t the big topic in the economy; the focus was more on jobs and wages. So it was easier for this trend to slip notice, like a frog boiling in water, quietly, putting more and more strain on American budgets. But today, after years of high inflation, prices are the biggest topic in the economy. And I think that explains the anger people feel: They’re noticing the price of things all the time, and getting hammered with the reality of how expensive these things have become.

    The author of that Atlantic piece is Annie Lowrey. She’s an economics reporter, the author of Give People Money, and also my wife. In this conversation, we discuss how the affordability crisis has collided with our post-pandemic inflationary world, the forces that shape our economic perceptions, why people keep spending as if prices aren’t a strain and what this might mean for the presidential election.

    Mentioned:

    It Will Never Be a Good Time to Buy a House” by Annie Lowrey

    Book Recommendations:

    Franchise by Marcia Chatelain

    A Place of Greater Safety by Hilary Mantel

    Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 07, 2024

    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump

    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump

    After Donald Trump was convicted last week in his hush-money trial, Republican leaders wasted no time in rallying behind him. There was no chance the Republican Party was going to replace Trump as their nominee at this point. Trump has essentially taken over the G.O.P.; his daughter-in-law is even co-chair of the Republican National Committee.

    How did the Republican Party get so weak that it could fall victim to a hostile takeover?

    Daniel Schlozman and Sam Rosenfeld are the authors of “The Hollow Parties: The Many Pasts and Disordered Present of American Party Politics,” which traces how both major political parties have been “hollowed out” over the decades, transforming once-powerful gatekeeping institutions into mere vessels for the ideologies of specific candidates. And they argue that this change has been perilous for our democracy.

    In this conversation, we discuss how the power of the parties has been gradually chipped away; why the Republican Party became less ideological and more geared around conflict; the merits of a stronger party system; and more.

    Mentioned:

    Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden” by The Ezra Klein Show

    Here’s How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work” by The Ezra Klein Show with Elaine Kamarck

    Book Recommendations:

    The Two Faces of American Freedom by Aziz Rana

    Rainbow’s End by Steven P. Erie

    An American Melodrama by Lewis Chester, Godfrey Hodgson, Bruce Page

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show’‘ was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker, Kate Sinclair and Rollin Hu. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 04, 2024

    Your Mind Is Being Fracked

    Your Mind Is Being Fracked

    The steady dings of notifications. The 40 tabs that greet you when you open your computer in the morning. The hundreds of unread emails, most of them spam, with subject lines pleading or screaming for you to click. Our attention is under assault these days, and most of us are familiar with the feeling that gives us — fractured, irritated, overwhelmed.

    D. Graham Burnett calls the attention economy an example of “human fracking”: With our attention in shorter and shorter supply, companies are going to even greater lengths to extract this precious resource from us. And he argues that it’s now reached a point that calls for a kind of revolution. “This is creating conditions that are at odds with human flourishing. We know this,” he tells me. “And we need to mount new forms of resistance.”

    Burnett is a professor of the history of science at Princeton University and is working on a book about the laboratory study of attention. He’s also a co-founder of the Strother School of Radical Attention, which is a kind of grass roots, artistic effort to create a curriculum for studying attention.

    In this conversation, we talk about how the 20th-century study of attention laid the groundwork for today’s attention economy, the connection between changing ideas of attention and changing ideas of the self, how we even define attention (this episode is worth listening to for Burnett’s collection of beautiful metaphors alone), whether the concern over our shrinking attention spans is simply a moral panic, what it means to teach attention and more.

    Mentioned:

    Friends of Attention

    The Battle for Attention” by Nathan Heller

    Powerful Forces Are Fracking Our Attention. We Can Fight Back.” by D. Graham Burnett, Alyssa Loh and Peter Schmidt

    Scenes of Attention edited by D. Graham Burnett and Justin E. H. Smith

    Book Recommendations:

    Addiction by Design by Natasha Dow Schüll

    Objectivity by Lorraine Daston and Peter L. Galison

    The Confidence-Man by Herman Melville

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Elias Isquith. Original music by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 31, 2024

    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    A.I.-generated art has flooded the internet, and a lot of it is derivative, even boring or offensive. But what could it look like for artists to collaborate with A.I. systems in making art that is actually generative, challenging, transcendent?

    Holly Herndon offered one answer with her 2019 album “PROTO.” Along with Mathew Dryhurst and the programmer Jules LaPlace, she built an A.I. called “Spawn” trained on human voices that adds an uncanny yet oddly personal layer to the music. Beyond her music and visual art, Herndon is trying to solve a problem that many creative people are encountering as A.I. becomes more prominent: How do you encourage experimentation without stealing others’ work to train A.I. models? Along with Dryhurst, Jordan Meyer and Patrick Hoepner, she co-founded Spawning, a company figuring out how to allow artists — and all of us creating content on the internet — to “consent” to our work being used as training data.

    In this conversation, we discuss how Herndon collaborated with a human chorus and her “A.I. baby,” Spawn, on “PROTO”; how A.I. voice imitators grew out of electronic music and other musical genres; why Herndon prefers the term “collective intelligence” to “artificial intelligence”; why an “opt-in” model could help us retain more control of our work as A.I. trawls the internet for data; and much more.

    Mentioned:

    Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt” by Holly Herndon

    xhairymutantx” by Holly Herndon and Mat Dryhurst, for the Whitney Museum of Art

    Fade” by Holly Herndon

    Swim” by Holly Herndon

    Jolene” by Holly Herndon and Holly+

    Movement” by Holly Herndon

    Chorus” by Holly Herndon

    Godmother” by Holly Herndon

    The Precision of Infinity” by Jlin and Philip Glass

    Holly+

    Book Recommendations:

    Intelligence and Spirit by Reza Negarestani

    Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky

    Plurality by E. Glen Weyl, Audrey Tang and ⿻ Community

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Jack Hamilton.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 24, 2024

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