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    • Three Generations and Their Views on Israel in AmericaOlder Americans see Israel as threatened, middle generation sees it as morally complex, and new generation knows it as powerful and oppressive

      The current political dynamics surrounding Israel in America reflect the experiences of three distinct generations. Older Americans view Israel as a vulnerable and threatened nation due to historical conflicts and wars. The middle generation, including the speaker, saw Israel as a strong but morally complex country, with a peace movement seeking to improve its image. However, after the collapse of the peace movement and the rise of extremist politics, a new generation has only known a powerful and oppressive Israel. This understanding shapes their perspective on Israel and can contribute to tensions and misunderstandings.

    • Israeli-Palestinian conflict touches Jews' identity and ethicsRabbi Sharon Braus urges acknowledging Palestinian suffering and addressing Israeli occupation's injustices for peace

      Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the actions of the Israeli government towards Palestinians have become a source of moral dilemma for many Jews, particularly younger generations in the US. This issue goes beyond politics and touches upon identity, ethics, and spirituality. Rabbi Sharon Braus, in her Yom Kippur sermon, urged honesty about Israel's occupation and its right-wing government, acknowledging the trauma and fear that led to the denial of Palestinian rights but emphasizing the need to address the injustices. The growing extremism in Israeli society and the resulting occupation have been ignored for too long, and acknowledging the suffering of Palestinians as victimizers, not just victims, is crucial for understanding the complexity of the situation and promoting peace.

    • Israel's future as a democracy and a just state under threatAs American Jews, we must speak out against undemocratic and un-Jewish trends in Israel, build bridges, and dedicate resources to ensure its future as a thriving democracy and just state.

      The dream of Israel as a safe haven for Jewish values and a thriving democracy is under threat, and as American Jews, we have a responsibility to speak out against undemocratic and un-Jewish trends. The stories shared during a joint commemoration ceremony on Israel's National Remembrance Day, where Israeli Jews and Palestinian citizens came together to share their grief, serve as a reminder of the human cost of the conflict. Despite controversy, thousands gathered in Tel Aviv this past year to build bridges and offer hope for a shared sense of humanity. It's crucial that we dedicate resources and passion to fighting for Israel's future as a democracy and a just state, just as our grandparents did in the face of persecution and genocide.

    • The Israeli-Palestinian conflict creates cognitive dissonance for American JewsAmerican Jews face a values rift between Israeli policies and their Jewish self-understanding, causing disengagement and a focus on other social justice causes.

      The ongoing conflict between Palestinians and Israelis is causing immense pain and grief for people on both sides. However, some protesters are drowning out the voices of those who want to share their stories and seek a better future. This issue creates cognitive dissonance for many American Jews and diaspora Jews, who fear speaking out against Israeli policies due to the risk of antisemitism and the perception of unfairness. Many have disengaged and focused on other social justice causes instead. The rift between the Israeli and American Jewish communities is a values rift, as Israeli values that are core to Jewish self-understanding are being undermined by extremist voices in Israel. It's important for the world to recognize that this situation is not representative of the entire Israeli population and that the civil disobedience and protests are a response to a dangerous core that has risen in power. It's our responsibility to ensure that these extremist voices do not become representative of the population. The religious observance of some Israelis does not justify turning Israel into an entity that goes against Jewish values.

    • The Jewish faith's emphasis on human worth and equalityThe Jewish faith values all humans equally, emphasizing their creation in God's image. This belief fosters empathy towards strangers and the protection of the oppressed, but unfortunately, Jews have historically faced persecution.

      The Jewish faith, as depicted in the Torah, emphasizes the inherent worth and equality of all human beings, derived from the belief that we are all created in God's image. This core belief is reinforced throughout Jewish sacred literature and traditions, which prioritize the journey of the Israelites from slavery towards building a just society. This experience of displacement and oppression is central to Jewish identity and teaches the importance of empathy towards strangers and the imperative to protect the oppressed. However, history shows that despite these teachings, Jews have often faced persecution and violence. This duality - the understanding of the oppressed experience as part of Jewish identity and the necessity of self-preservation - forms the complex foundation of Jewish thinking.

    • Liberal Jewish community's existential dilemma: Alone or part of the human community?Liberal Jews are grappling with a sense of isolation and responsibility for their own safety vs. being part of the larger human community. The Israel violence highlighted their lack of understanding and acceptance in progressive circles, leading to introspection and a call for balance.

      The Jewish community in America, particularly the liberal Jewish population, is grappling with a sense of existential loneliness and conflict between seeing themselves as fundamentally alone and responsible for their own safety versus being part of the larger human community and working towards a better world for all. This tension was highlighted during the violence in Israel in October 2022, which led to a painful realization that many liberal Jews felt they were not truly understood or accepted in their progressive circles. The community has been accused of naivety and ignorance of the realities faced by those living in Israel. This reckoning has led many to question whether they were indeed naive and whether they should have taken more seriously the warnings of those who criticized them for downplaying antisemitism. Ultimately, the Jewish community must navigate this tension and find a way to be both self-reliant and connected to the larger human community.

    • Identity shift for American JewsThe events of October 7th led American Jews to reconsider their connection to their community and their responsibilities towards others, highlighting the importance of balancing deep tribal connections with ethical responsibilities.

      The events of October 7th prompted a profound shift in identity for many American Jews, leading them to reconsider their connection to their community and their responsibilities towards others. This shift can be seen in the story of Avraham and Lot, where Avraham's responsibility to his nephew Lot awakened a deeper sense of obligation and connection, while his awareness of the potential harm caused by his actions underscored the importance of minimizing harm to others. This duality of deep tribal connections and ethical responsibilities is a challenge that many traditions and groups grapple with, and finding the balance between the two requires ongoing practice and self-reflection, especially during times of trauma and grief.

    • The danger of excluding others during times of tribal attachmentDuring crises, it's crucial to extend moral concern to all suffering people, not just our own tribe, to prevent loneliness, fear, and isolation.

      During times of tribal attachment and identity, it's crucial not to exclude others from our circle of care and concern. The speaker emphasizes the danger of drawing our circles too small, leading to loneliness, fear, and isolation, which can harm individuals and communities. The current global situation, marked by conflict and antisemitism, calls for an extension of our moral concern to all suffering people, regardless of their identity or location. This challenging task requires heart work and a commitment to empathy and compassion towards all innocent lives, including those caught in the midst of conflict. Ultimately, the speaker calls for a more inclusive and compassionate response to global crises, rather than retreating into tribalism and exclusion.

    • Bearing Witness to SufferingDuring conflict and crisis, expanding moral concern and acknowledging the humanity of those affected deepens connections and promotes healing.

      Expanding our moral concern and bearing witness to the suffering of others is a crucial political and spiritual practice, especially during times of conflict and crisis. The speaker's experience of visiting Israel after the attacks and witnessing the devastation and grief firsthand was a profound reminder of the importance of seeing and acknowledging the humanity of those affected. The idea of bearing witness is rooted in ancient Jewish tradition, as seen in the Mishnah, where someone who is brokenhearted is given space to share their pain with others. By truly seeing and acknowledging the suffering of others, we can deepen our connections with one another and work towards healing and understanding.

    • Ancient Jewish ritual teaches the importance of empathy and connectionEmpathy and connection are crucial for individual and societal well-being. Offering support to others, even in small ways, can help prevent isolation and heal wounds.

      Importance of empathy and connection, as exemplified in an ancient Jewish ritual. During this pilgrimage, those making their way around the holiest site were required to stop and offer a blessing to those coming towards them, regardless of their own circumstances. This simple yet profound act serves as a reminder that when we are suffering, we need to be seen and acknowledged by others. The inability to engage in each other's pain and offer support can lead to isolation, hurt society, and even endanger our democracy. Three recommended books to deepen this understanding are "The Prophets" by Abraham Joshua Heschel, "To Bless the Space Between Us" by John O'Donohue, and "Homegoing" by Yaa Gyasi. These works explore the power of empathy, belonging, and the impact of trauma on generations.

    Recent Episodes from The Ezra Klein Show

    How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work

    How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work

    After President Biden’s rough performance at the first presidential debate, the question of an open convention has roared to the front of Democratic politics. But how would an open convention work? What would be its risks? What would be its rewards? 

    In February, after I first made the case for an open Democratic convention, I interviewed Elaine Kamarck to better understand what an open convention would look like. She literally wrote the book on how we choose presidential candidates, “Primary Politics: Everything You Need to Know About How America Nominates Its Presidential Candidates.” But her background here isn’t just theory. She’s worked on four presidential campaigns and on 10 nominating conventions — for both Democrats and Republicans. She’s a member of the Democratic National Committee’s Rules Committee. And her explanation of the mechanics and dynamics of open conventions was, for me, extremely helpful. It’s even more relevant now than it was then. 

    Mentioned:

    The Lincoln Miracle by Ed Achorn

    Book Recommendations:

    All the King’s Men by Robert Penn Warren

    The Making of the President 1960 by Theodore H. White

    Quiet Revolution by Byron E. Shafer

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Kristin Lin. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    This conversation was recorded in February 2024.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJuly 02, 2024

    What Is the Democratic Party For?

    What Is the Democratic Party For?

    Top Democrats have closed ranks around Joe Biden since the debate. Should they? 

    Mentioned:

    This Isn’t All Joe Biden’s Fault” by Ezra Klein

    Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden” by The Ezra Klein Show

    Here’s How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work” with Elaine Kamarck on The Ezra Klein Show

    The Hollow Parties by Daniel Schlozman and Sam Rosenfeld

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This audio essay was produced by Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Fact-Checking by Jack McCordick and Michelle Harris. Mixing by Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld, Elias Isquith and Aman Sahota. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 30, 2024

    After That Debate, the Risk of Biden Is Clear

    After That Debate, the Risk of Biden Is Clear

    I joined my Times Opinion colleagues Ross Douthat and Michelle Cottle to discuss the debate — and what Democrats might do next.

    Mentioned:

    The Biden and Trump Weaknesses That Don’t Get Enough Attention” by Ross Douthat

    Trump’s Bold Vision for America: Higher Prices!” with Matthew Yglesias on The Ezra Klein Show

    Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden” on The Ezra Klein Show

    Here’s How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work” with Elaine Kamarck on The Ezra Klein Show

    Gretchen Whitmer on The Interview

    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump” with Sam Rosenfeld and Daniel Schlozman on The Ezra Klein Show

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 28, 2024

    Trump’s Bold Vision for America: Higher Prices!

    Trump’s Bold Vision for America: Higher Prices!

    Donald Trump has made inflation a central part of his campaign message. At his rallies, he rails against “the Biden inflation tax” and “crooked Joe’s inflation nightmare,” and promises that in a second Trump term, “inflation will be in full retreat.”

    But if you look at Trump’s actual policies, that wouldn’t be the case at all. Trump has a bold, ambitious agenda to make prices much, much higher. He’s proposing a 10 percent tariff on imported goods, and a 60 percent tariff on products from China. He wants to deport huge numbers of immigrants. And he’s made it clear that he’d like to replace the Federal Reserve chair with someone more willing to take orders from him. It’s almost unimaginable to me that you would run on this agenda at a time when Americans are so mad about high prices. But I don’t think people really know that’s what Trump is vowing to do.

    So to drill into the weeds of Trump’s plans, I decided to call up an old friend. Matt Yglesias is a Bloomberg Opinion columnist and the author of the Slow Boring newsletter, where he’s been writing a lot about Trump’s proposals. We also used to host a policy podcast together, “The Weeds.”

    In this conversation, we discuss what would happen to the economy, especially in terms of inflation, if Trump actually did what he says he wants to do; what we can learn from how Trump managed the economy in his first term; and why more people aren’t sounding the alarm.

    Mentioned:

    Trump’s new economic plan is terrible” by Matthew Yglesias

    Never mind: Wall Street titans shake off qualms and embrace Trump” by Sam Sutton

    How Far Trump Would Go” by Eric Cortellessa

    Book Recommendations:

    Take Back the Game by Linda Flanagan

    1177 B.C. by Eric H. Cline

    The Rise of the G.I. Army, 1940-1941 by Paul Dickson

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Mixing by Isaac Jones, with Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero, Adam Posen and Michael Strain.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 21, 2024

    The Biggest Political Divide Is Not Left vs. Right

    The Biggest Political Divide Is Not Left vs. Right

    The biggest divide in our politics isn’t between Democrats and Republicans, or even left and right. It’s between people who follow politics closely, and those who pay almost no attention to it. If you’re in the former camp — and if you’re reading this, you probably are — the latter camp can seem inscrutable. These people hardly ever look at political news. They hate discussing politics. But they do care about issues and candidates, and they often vote.

    As the 2024 election takes shape, this bloc appears crucial to determining who wins the presidency. An NBC News poll from April found that 15 percent of voters don’t follow political news, and Donald Trump was winning them by 26 points.

    Yanna Krupnikov studies exactly this kind of voter. She’s a professor of communication and media at the University of Michigan and an author, with John Barry Ryan, of “The Other Divide: Polarization and Disengagement in American Politics.” The book examines how the chasm between the deeply involved and the less involved shapes politics in America. I’ve found it to be a helpful guide for understanding one of the most crucial dynamics emerging in this year’s election: the swing to Trump from President Biden among disengaged voters.

    In this conversation, we discuss how politically disengaged voters relate to politics; where they get their information about politics and how they form opinions; and whether major news events, like Trump’s recent conviction, might sway them.

    Mentioned:

    The ‘Need for Chaos’ and Motivations to Share Hostile Political Rumors” by Michael Bang Petersen, Mathias Osmundsen and Kevin Arceneaux

    Hooked by Markus Prior

    The Political Influence of Lifestyle Influencers? Examining the Relationship Between Aspirational Social Media Use and Anti-Expert Attitudes and Beliefs” by Ariel Hasell and Sedona Chinn

    One explanation for the 2024 election’s biggest mystery” by Eric Levitz

    Book Recommendations:

    What Goes Without Saying by Taylor N. Carlson and Jaime E. Settle

    Through the Grapevine by Taylor N. Carlson

    Sorry I’m Late, I Didn’t Want to Come by Jessica Pan

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 18, 2024

    The View From the Israeli Right

    The View From the Israeli Right

    On Tuesday I got back from an eight-day trip to Israel and the West Bank. I happened to be there on the day that Benny Gantz resigned from the war cabinet and called on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to schedule new elections, breaking the unity government that Israel had had since shortly after Oct. 7.

    There is no viable left wing in Israel right now. There is a coalition that Netanyahu leads stretching from right to far right and a coalition that Gantz leads stretching from center to right. In the early months of the war, Gantz appeared ascendant as support for Netanyahu cratered. But now Netanyahu’s poll numbers are ticking back up.

    So one thing I did in Israel was deepen my reporting on Israel’s right. And there, Amit Segal’s name kept coming up. He’s one of Israel’s most influential political analysts and the author of “The Story of Israeli Politics” is coming out in English.

    Segal and I talked about the political differences between Gantz and Netanyahu, the theory of security that’s emerging on the Israeli right, what happened to the Israeli left, the threat from Iran and Hezbollah and how Netanyahu is trying to use President Biden’s criticism to his political advantage.

    Mentioned:

    Biden May Spur Another Netanyahu Comeback” by Amit Segal

    Book Recommendations:

    The Years of Lyndon Johnson Series by Robert A. Caro

    The World of Yesterday by Stefan Zweig

    The Object of Zionism by Zvi Efrat

    The News from Waterloo by Brian Cathcart

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 14, 2024

    The Economic Theory That Explains Why Americans Are So Mad

    The Economic Theory That Explains Why Americans Are So Mad

    There’s something weird happening with the economy. On a personal level, most Americans say they’re doing pretty well right now. And according to the data, that’s true. Wages have gone up faster than inflation. Unemployment is low, the stock market is generally up so far this year, and people are buying more stuff.

    And yet in surveys, people keep saying the economy is bad. A recent Harris poll for The Guardian found that around half of Americans think the S. & P. 500 is down this year, and that unemployment is at a 50-year high. Fifty-six percent think we’re in a recession.

    There are many theories about why this gap exists. Maybe political polarization is warping how people see the economy or it’s a failure of President Biden’s messaging, or there’s just something uniquely painful about inflation. And while there’s truth in all of these, it felt like a piece of the story was missing.

    And for me, that missing piece was an article I read right before the pandemic. An Atlantic story from February 2020 called “The Great Affordability Crisis Breaking America.” It described how some of Americans’ biggest-ticket expenses — housing, health care, higher education and child care — which were already pricey, had been getting steadily pricier for decades.

    At the time, prices weren’t the big topic in the economy; the focus was more on jobs and wages. So it was easier for this trend to slip notice, like a frog boiling in water, quietly, putting more and more strain on American budgets. But today, after years of high inflation, prices are the biggest topic in the economy. And I think that explains the anger people feel: They’re noticing the price of things all the time, and getting hammered with the reality of how expensive these things have become.

    The author of that Atlantic piece is Annie Lowrey. She’s an economics reporter, the author of Give People Money, and also my wife. In this conversation, we discuss how the affordability crisis has collided with our post-pandemic inflationary world, the forces that shape our economic perceptions, why people keep spending as if prices aren’t a strain and what this might mean for the presidential election.

    Mentioned:

    It Will Never Be a Good Time to Buy a House” by Annie Lowrey

    Book Recommendations:

    Franchise by Marcia Chatelain

    A Place of Greater Safety by Hilary Mantel

    Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 07, 2024

    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump

    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump

    After Donald Trump was convicted last week in his hush-money trial, Republican leaders wasted no time in rallying behind him. There was no chance the Republican Party was going to replace Trump as their nominee at this point. Trump has essentially taken over the G.O.P.; his daughter-in-law is even co-chair of the Republican National Committee.

    How did the Republican Party get so weak that it could fall victim to a hostile takeover?

    Daniel Schlozman and Sam Rosenfeld are the authors of “The Hollow Parties: The Many Pasts and Disordered Present of American Party Politics,” which traces how both major political parties have been “hollowed out” over the decades, transforming once-powerful gatekeeping institutions into mere vessels for the ideologies of specific candidates. And they argue that this change has been perilous for our democracy.

    In this conversation, we discuss how the power of the parties has been gradually chipped away; why the Republican Party became less ideological and more geared around conflict; the merits of a stronger party system; and more.

    Mentioned:

    Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden” by The Ezra Klein Show

    Here’s How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work” by The Ezra Klein Show with Elaine Kamarck

    Book Recommendations:

    The Two Faces of American Freedom by Aziz Rana

    Rainbow’s End by Steven P. Erie

    An American Melodrama by Lewis Chester, Godfrey Hodgson, Bruce Page

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show’‘ was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker, Kate Sinclair and Rollin Hu. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 04, 2024

    Your Mind Is Being Fracked

    Your Mind Is Being Fracked

    The steady dings of notifications. The 40 tabs that greet you when you open your computer in the morning. The hundreds of unread emails, most of them spam, with subject lines pleading or screaming for you to click. Our attention is under assault these days, and most of us are familiar with the feeling that gives us — fractured, irritated, overwhelmed.

    D. Graham Burnett calls the attention economy an example of “human fracking”: With our attention in shorter and shorter supply, companies are going to even greater lengths to extract this precious resource from us. And he argues that it’s now reached a point that calls for a kind of revolution. “This is creating conditions that are at odds with human flourishing. We know this,” he tells me. “And we need to mount new forms of resistance.”

    Burnett is a professor of the history of science at Princeton University and is working on a book about the laboratory study of attention. He’s also a co-founder of the Strother School of Radical Attention, which is a kind of grass roots, artistic effort to create a curriculum for studying attention.

    In this conversation, we talk about how the 20th-century study of attention laid the groundwork for today’s attention economy, the connection between changing ideas of attention and changing ideas of the self, how we even define attention (this episode is worth listening to for Burnett’s collection of beautiful metaphors alone), whether the concern over our shrinking attention spans is simply a moral panic, what it means to teach attention and more.

    Mentioned:

    Friends of Attention

    The Battle for Attention” by Nathan Heller

    Powerful Forces Are Fracking Our Attention. We Can Fight Back.” by D. Graham Burnett, Alyssa Loh and Peter Schmidt

    Scenes of Attention edited by D. Graham Burnett and Justin E. H. Smith

    Book Recommendations:

    Addiction by Design by Natasha Dow Schüll

    Objectivity by Lorraine Daston and Peter L. Galison

    The Confidence-Man by Herman Melville

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Elias Isquith. Original music by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 31, 2024

    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    A.I.-generated art has flooded the internet, and a lot of it is derivative, even boring or offensive. But what could it look like for artists to collaborate with A.I. systems in making art that is actually generative, challenging, transcendent?

    Holly Herndon offered one answer with her 2019 album “PROTO.” Along with Mathew Dryhurst and the programmer Jules LaPlace, she built an A.I. called “Spawn” trained on human voices that adds an uncanny yet oddly personal layer to the music. Beyond her music and visual art, Herndon is trying to solve a problem that many creative people are encountering as A.I. becomes more prominent: How do you encourage experimentation without stealing others’ work to train A.I. models? Along with Dryhurst, Jordan Meyer and Patrick Hoepner, she co-founded Spawning, a company figuring out how to allow artists — and all of us creating content on the internet — to “consent” to our work being used as training data.

    In this conversation, we discuss how Herndon collaborated with a human chorus and her “A.I. baby,” Spawn, on “PROTO”; how A.I. voice imitators grew out of electronic music and other musical genres; why Herndon prefers the term “collective intelligence” to “artificial intelligence”; why an “opt-in” model could help us retain more control of our work as A.I. trawls the internet for data; and much more.

    Mentioned:

    Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt” by Holly Herndon

    xhairymutantx” by Holly Herndon and Mat Dryhurst, for the Whitney Museum of Art

    Fade” by Holly Herndon

    Swim” by Holly Herndon

    Jolene” by Holly Herndon and Holly+

    Movement” by Holly Herndon

    Chorus” by Holly Herndon

    Godmother” by Holly Herndon

    The Precision of Infinity” by Jlin and Philip Glass

    Holly+

    Book Recommendations:

    Intelligence and Spirit by Reza Negarestani

    Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky

    Plurality by E. Glen Weyl, Audrey Tang and ⿻ Community

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Jack Hamilton.

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