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    What most people miss about marketing | Rory Sutherland (Vice Chairman of Ogilvy UK, author)

    enJuly 21, 2024
    What is Steve Jobs' perspective on marketing for products?
    How does Rory Sutherland suggest using human psychology in marketing?
    Why do consumers prefer evolution over complete reinvention?
    What strategies contribute to the success of companies like Octopus Energy?
    What lessons can be learned from failed products and innovation?

    Podcast Summary

    • Product MarketingImagining a stand-up comedian doing a routine about your product and preserving unique features are key elements in successful product marketing.

      Marketing plays a crucial role in a product's success, often more than we realize. Steve Jobs, a brilliant salesman and marketer, understood this well. He believed that if you could imagine a stand-up comedian doing a routine about your product, then you're onto something. Rory Sutherland, a vice chairman of Ogilvy, author, and founder of Nudge Stock, encourages thinking from first principles and using human psychology to design and build products. Good marketing often involves preserving slightly odd things that make your product distinctive. Consumers generally prefer evolution over complete reinvention, and idiosyncrasies can count double. Even failed products can be revived with the right marketing strategy. Timing and preserving unique features are essential.

    • Counterintuitive quirksUnexpected features or experiences can create memorable and engaging identities, as shown by Rolls-Royce's headlight pedal and MCI's Friends and Family plan.

      Sometimes, the most memorable and effective products or experiences are those that embrace the unusual or counterintuitive. This can capture our attention and create a distinctive identity. Rolls-Royce cars, for instance, had a pedal for dipping headlights instead of a stalk, which was less practical for manual transmissions but became a recognizable feature. Similarly, MCI's Friends and Family plan, which offered discounts on frequently called numbers, garnered more interest than a simple price reduction across the board. These quirks, though seemingly irrational, can make a product or experience more engaging and memorable. The comedian's observation of the world around him and the unexpected success of BBC's acquisition of The Killing from Danish broadcaster are other examples of the power of the unconventional. So, instead of always striving for logical and rational solutions, consider the potential of the slightly weird or counterintuitive to create unique and impactful experiences.

    • Real-world decision makingTraditional intelligence tests and multiple choice questions may not accurately reflect real-life decision-making as they lack proportionality, complete information, and the ability to handle complex, ambiguous situations. Successful companies prioritize clear objectives, autonomy, and a human-centered approach to foster creativity, motivation, and better decision-making.

      Traditional intelligence tests and multiple choice questions, which assume a single right answer, may not accurately reflect real-life decision-making. These tests lack proportionality, complete information, and the ability to handle complex, ambiguous situations. Real-world decisions often involve multiple right answers, irrelevant information, and a need to adapt to changing circumstances. Companies like Octopus Energy and Shopify have found success by allowing small, autonomous teams to make decisions, creating a more human-centered approach. These companies prioritize clear objectives, autonomy, and a sense of obligation and reciprocity among team members. Successful companies like AO also prioritize treating customers like family, focusing on customer satisfaction rather than metrics like speed and efficiency. By designing for humanity rather than organizational structures, businesses can foster creativity, motivation, and better decision-making.

    • Workplace DemotivationThe excessive focus on quantifiable metrics and suppression of autonomy can lead to workplace demotivation and dehumanization. It's crucial to acknowledge the significance of human qualities and autonomy in decision-making.

      The relentless pursuit of quantifiable metrics and the suppression of autonomy and judgment in the workplace can lead to demotivation and dehumanization. An extreme example of this is the Soviet-style capitalism that prioritizes quarterly targets over long-term solutions and employee well-being. This approach ignores the importance of human qualities like ethics, memory, instinct, and creativity in decision-making. The urge for quantification and decychologization of problems can result in a deeply demotivating work environment. Furthermore, the evolution of the human brain has equipped us with psychological mechanisms for decision-making under uncertainty, yet most procedures we encounter are designed for decision-making under certainty. The ability to behave irrationally and unpredictably can be a rational strategy in certain circumstances, such as in business negotiations or when being chased by a predator. Moreover, our brains have two strong default modes: habit and social copying. These modes make evolutionary sense because they help us avoid poisonous berries and learn from others in new environments. In conclusion, it's essential to recognize the importance of human qualities and autonomy in the workplace and to design procedures that account for the complexity and uncertainty of real-world situations.

    • Marketing influence on product adoptionEffective marketing and timing are crucial factors in the success of new and innovative products, often influencing people's decisions based on social norms and experiences.

      Marketing plays a crucial role in the success of new and innovative products, often being a decisive factor in their adoption. This is because people tend to make decisions based on social norms and the experiences of their neighbors, rather than purely rational calculations. The success of products like solar panels, heat pumps, electric cars, and even the iPhone, are often attributed to their inherent merits, but in reality, effective marketing and timing were also essential factors. For instance, the widespread adoption of electricity, smallpox vaccination, and even the mobile phone, were all influenced by marketing campaigns and social pressure. Additionally, there have been numerous innovative products that failed despite their merits due to poor timing or marketing. Therefore, it's important for businesses to consider marketing as an integral part of their strategy, rather than an afterthought.

    • Timing and psychological hurdles in innovationSuccess in innovation depends on both timing and overcoming psychological barriers. Outdated technologies and ideas can have potential, but may face resistance due to psychological factors. Even if a product or idea fails in the past, it's worth revisiting and adapting to new contexts.

      The success of a product or idea often depends on timing and overcoming psychological hurdles. The speaker expresses frustration over outdated technologies and products that didn't reach their potential, such as dry toilets in the Western Hemisphere versus water-cleansing toilets in Japan, or the lack of adoption of Google Glass. He also mentions the failure of some internet ideas, like the Chonby and Food Fairy, due to being too early or facing psychological barriers. The speaker believes that even if a product or idea fails in the past, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried again. He also shares his excitement about products that could have succeeded but didn't, such as video conferencing on TV during the pandemic. Overall, the speaker's perspective is that innovation and progress can be slow, but it's important to keep trying and adapting to new technologies and ideas.

    • Ancient Persian decision-making processConsidering unconventional ideas alongside logical ones in decision-making can increase chances of successful innovation, as practiced by the ancient Persians

      Successful innovation often requires considering unconventional ideas alongside the logical and rational ones. This idea can be operationalized by following a two-stage decision-making process, as the ancient Persians did, where ideas are presented to both rational and irrational thinkers before implementation. Many failed products, like the early electric car, suffered not from technical issues but from negative user imagery and societal perceptions. By understanding the importance of considering the silly or unconventional ideas alongside the logical ones, companies can increase their chances of successful innovation.

    • Early adoption and innovationEarly adoption of new technology and ideas can start as a display of status or novelty, but eventually becomes functional and valuable. Consistency, distinctiveness, and fame are important for startups looking to build a brand.

      Early adoption of new technology and ideas often starts as a display of status or novelty, but eventually becomes functional and valuable. Birds evolved wings for display before they became a means of flight, and similarly, early investors and innovators provide the funding and evangelism for promising ideas before they reach maturity. However, marketers and those in creative industries often have a higher openness to new experiences and can come across as outliers in corporate environments. Marita Iwakawa's decision to keep the Walkman as a single-function device was an inspired move, as it focused consumer attention and simplified the decision-making process. For startups looking to build a brand, consistency, distinctiveness, and fame are key. Being consistent helps establish trust and recognition, while distinctiveness sets a company apart from competitors. Fame, though often overlooked, can lead to exponential growth and unexpected applications for a product.

    • Brand Fame and Business SuccessBuilding a great brand involves consistency, distinctiveness, and fame, leading to increased trust, longer employee tenure, and more customer loyalty. The value of brand-building is exponential and long-term, requiring a shift in perspective to accurately evaluate its impact.

      Fame plays a significant role in business success, and its value is not easily quantifiable. People's brains are wired to respond differently to familiar brands or companies, leading to various advantages such as increased trust, longer employee tenure, and more customer loyalty. Building a great brand involves consistency, distinctiveness, and fame, which contributes to trust and reputation. The value of brand-building is not linear but exponential, and it's essential to consider the long-term effects rather than focusing solely on short-term metrics. The relationship between fame and business success is complex, with non-linear and compounding factors at play. We need to shift our perspective and embrace a different kind of maths to accurately evaluate the value of marketing activities.

    • Marketing and Product DevelopmentConsider marketing and product development as parallel processes, not separate entities, to increase chances of success in innovation and development.

      When building a product, it's essential to consider the psychological, technological, and economic aspects in parallel, rather than in series. The process of innovation and development is not linear, and businesses often fail at first iteration but succeed with a pivot. Marketing and technology, as well as marketing and innovation, should not be treated as separate entities but rather two sides of the same coin. Companies can either find out what people want and create it or make something and find a way to make people want it. Don't leave marketing to the last minute, but work on it in parallel with product development. For more insights, check out Rory Sutherland's book "Alchemy," available on Audible, Kindle, and from all good bookshops. Additionally, if you're in the transportation industry, consider reading "Transport for Humans," co-written with Pete Dyson. Remember, the best way to support the show is by subscribing, rating, or leaving a review on your favorite podcast app. Thanks for listening!

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    Referenced:

    • The Most Complicated Object in the Universe: https://today.uconn.edu/2018/03/complicated-object-universe/#

    • The Myers-Briggs personality test: https://www.themyersbriggs.com/en-US/Products-and-Services/Myers-Briggs

    • The Big Five personality test: https://www.thepersonalitylab.org/

    • The Enneagram personality test: https://enneagramtest.com/

    • An inside look at how Figma builds product | Yuhki Yamashita (CPO of Figma): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/an-inside-look-at-how-figma-builds

    • Vision, conviction, and hype: How to build 0 to 1 inside a company | Mihika Kapoor (Product at Figma): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/vision-conviction-hype-mihika-kapoor

    • Dylan Field live at Config: Intuition, simplicity, and the future of design: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/dylan-field-live-at-config

    • An inside look at Figma’s unique GTM motion | Claire Butler (first GTM hire): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/an-inside-look-at-figmas-unique-bottom

    • Inside Canva: Coaches not managers, giving away your Legos, and running profitably | Cameron Adams (co-founder and CPO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-canva-with-cameron-adams

    • The Science-Business Mismatch That Puts Your Change at Risk: https://changemanagementreview.com/the-science-business-mismatch-that-puts-your-change-at-risk/

    • Daniel Pink on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielpink/

    • Trello: https://trello.com/

    • Cron: https://cronhq.notion.site/

    • The Double Diamond framework for design thinking: https://www.fluxspace.io/resources/the-4-ds-double-diamond-design-thinking-model

    • CORE Sciences - Tips on Priming Great Meetings PDF: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gm21cj0vi0bjosyu8kd69/CORE-Sciences-Tips-on-Priming-Great-Meetings.pdf?rlkey=6fznhv7bbsxm8nj8m4luej17t&st=2eduirad&dl=0

    • How to grow a subscription business | Yuriy Timen (Grammarly, Canva, Airtable): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/transform-your-subscription-growth

    • Brené Brown’s website: https://brenebrown.com/

    • The CORE personality test: https://www.core-sciences.com/new-core-identity

    • Burning Man: https://burningman.org/

    • Stripe: https://stripe.com/

    • Jony Ive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jony_Ive

    • Albert Einstein quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7133605-make-things-as-simple-as-possible-but-no-simpler

    • Elden Ring: https://en.bandainamcoent.eu/elden-ring/elden-ring

    • Abilene paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox

    The Challenger Sale: Taking Control of the Customer Conversation: https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Sale-Control-Customer-Conversation/dp/1591844355

    • The surprising truth about what closes deals: Insights from 2.5m sales conversations | Matt Dixon (author of The Challenger Sale and The JOLT Effect): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/close-more-deals-matt-dixon

    • Siqi Chan on X: https://x.com/blader

    • Runway: https://runway.com/

    • Shreyas Doshi on pre-mortems, the LNO framework, the three levels of product work, why most execution problems are strategy problems, and ROI vs. opportunity cost thinking: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/episode-3-shreyas-doshi

    • Wolfgang Puck’s website: https://wolfgangpuck.com/

    • Steven Spielberg on X: https://x.com/sspielberg93

    • John Williams’s website: https://www.johnwilliams.org/

    • The paths to power: How to grow your influence and advance your career | Jeffrey Pfeffer (author of 7 Rules of Power, professor at Stanford GSB): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-paths-to-power-jeffrey-pfeffer

    • Warby Parker: https://www.warbyparker.com/

    • Simon Sinek’s website: https://simonsinek.com/

    • What is the function of the various brainwaves?: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the-function-of-t-1997-12-22/

    • CORE Sciences - Your Brain's 9 Modes PDF: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/figg8upeaawir1hnxv0ew/CORE-Sciences-Your-Brain-s-9-Modes.pdf?rlkey=u3zaonxvycvupurq6pwysckfq&st=os06xjnr&dl=0

    Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It: Unlock Your Persuasion Potential in Professional and Personal Life: https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-Depended/dp/0062407805

    The Person and the Situation: Perspectives of Social Psychology: https://www.amazon.com/Person-Situation-Perspectives-Social-Psychology/dp/1905177445

    Cambridge Fundamentals of Neuroscience in Psychology: https://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Fundamentals-Neuroscience-Psychology/dp/B08QYNDNYX

    • Robert Greene’s books on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Robert-Greene/author/B001IGV3IS

    Misbehaving: The Making of Behavioral Economics: https://www.amazon.com/Misbehaving-Behavioral-Economics-Richard-Thaler/dp/039335279X

    • Beehiiv: https://www.beehiiv.com/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    How embracing your emotions will accelerate your career | Joe Hudson (executive coach, Art of Accomplishment)

    How embracing your emotions will accelerate your career | Joe Hudson (executive coach, Art of Accomplishment)

    Joe Hudson is one of the most sought-after executive coaches in Silicon Valley. He is the founder of Art of Accomplishment, a transformational coaching program that has helped tens of thousands of people, including many tech executives and founders from companies like Apple, OpenAI, and Google. His unique method of transformation comes from over 25 years of exploring neurological, psychological, and spiritual traditions, tested against real-world challenges. In our conversation, Joe shares:

    • Why the critical voice in your head is always wrong, and how to change your relationship with that voice

    • Why authenticity trumps self-improvement

    • The importance of embracing all of your emotions

    • How to create more enjoyable and effective meetings

    • The power of gratitude in transforming your life

    • Practical experiments for personal growth

    • Much more

    Apply for Joe’s Connection Course:

    Thousands of students have taken Joe’s most popular experience, the Connection Course. Unlike most online courses, there is no reading, lectures, or written homework. It is a three-week experiential deep dive where you will apply your learnings to real-life problems—how to make your team more productive, communicate more effectively, and resolve conflicts with ease. Apply here and use the code LENNY for $300 off your enrollment: view.life/lenny.

    Brought to you by:

    BuildBetter—AI for product teams

    WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs

    Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace

    Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/embracing-your-emotions-joe-hudson

    Where to find Joe Hudson:

    • X: https://x.com/FU_joehudson

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-hudson/

    • Website: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/

    • Podcast: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/podcast

    • Linktree: https://linktr.ee/theartofaccomplishment

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Joe’s background

    (02:31) The critical voice in your head

    (06:39) Changing your relationship with the critical voice

    (13:19) Understanding and embracing emotions

    (19:52) The importance of emotional fluidity

    (24:40) Questioning assumptions and self-perception

    (30:25) The consequences of avoiding emotions

    (36:57) Experimenting with self-improvement

    (39:42) Understanding efficiency and enjoyment

    (43:17) The power of enjoyment in daily tasks

    (45:03) Innate enjoyment vs. learned enjoyment

    (46:31) Authenticity vs. self-improvement

    (50:01) Embracing emotional experiences

    (55:49) How understanding your emotions helps you make better decisions

    (01:02:53) Creating effective teams and meetings

    (01:10:40) Gratitude practice for personal growth

    (01:15:36) Conclusion and final thoughts

    Referenced:

    Descartes’ Error: Emotion, Reason, and the Human Brain: https://www.amazon.com/Descartes-Error-Emotion-Reason-Human/dp/014303622X/

    • Joe’s quote about joy: https://x.com/FU_joehudson/status/1756837774743790030

    • “Emotional Inquiry”: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/podcast/emotional-inquiry

    Inside Out 2: https://movies.disney.com/inside-out-2

    • “Question the Assumption”: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/podcast/question-the-assumption

    • Bodega Bay: https://www.bodegabay.com/

    • Elon Musk reveals the interview question he asks every candidate to instantly spot a liar: https://www.good.is/elon-musk-reveals-the-one-job-interview-question-he-asks-every-candidate-to-instantly-spot-a-liar

    • Great Decisions course: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/course/great-decisions-course

    • HBR Analytic Services: https://hbr.org/hbr-analytic-services

    • Connection Course: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/course/the-connection-course

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Lessons from scaling Uber and Opendoor | Brian Tolkin (Head of Product at Opendoor, ex-Uber)

    Lessons from scaling Uber and Opendoor | Brian Tolkin (Head of Product at Opendoor, ex-Uber)

    Brian Tolkin is the Head of Product at Opendoor. Previously, he was one of the early employees at Uber, where he was instrumental in launching and growing UberPool, UberHop, and UberExpress and started one of the first product operations teams in tech. In our conversation, we dive into:

    • How to enable product and ops to work well together

    • How to run great product reviews

    • How to make good decisions with limited data

    • How he uses the jobs-to-be-done framework at Opendoor

    • How to stay calm under pressure as a leader

    • Wild stories from his time at Uber

    • Challenges faced at Opendoor during the pandemic

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application

    Explo—Embed customer-facing analytics in your product

    Attio—The powerful, flexible CRM for fast-growing startups

    Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/scaling-uber-and-opendoor-brian-tolkin

    Where to find Brian Tolkin:

    • X: https://x.com/briantolkin

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/briantolkin/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Brian’s background

    (02:14) Career beginnings at Uber

    (02:49) Transitioning from product operations to product management

    (06:47) Product and operations synergy

    (10:00) Surge pricing at Uber

    (12:18) Scaling challenges, and stories

    (15:47) Opendoor and Covid adaptations

    (25:38) Product reviews and Jobs to Be Done

    (40:30) The challenges of A/B testing

    (42:23) Increasing conviction in solutions

    (44:33) Leveraging intuition in product decisions

    (47:07) Partnering with Zillow

    (52:55) Staying calm under pressure

    (56:25) Finding the “kernel of truth” in product management

    (01:00:21) Failure corner: Early days of Uber Pool

    (01:06:11) Lightning round and final thoughts

    Referenced:

    • Twitter’s former Head of Product opens up: being fired, meeting Elon, changing stagnant culture, building consumer product, more | Kayvon Beykpour: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/twitters-former-head-of-product-kayvon-beykpour

    • Opendoor: https://sell.opendoor.com/

    • How to sell your ideas and rise within your company | Casey Winters, Eventbrite: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-sell-your-ideas-and-rise-within

    • Thinking beyond frameworks | Casey Winters (Pinterest, Eventbrite, Airbnb, Tinder, Canva, Reddit, Grubhub): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/thinking-beyond-frameworks-casey

    • Zigging vs. zagging: How HubSpot built a $30B company | Dharmesh Shah (co-founder/CTO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-30-years-of-building

    • FlashTags: A Simple Hack for Conveying Context Without Confusion: https://www.onstartups.com/flashtags-a-simple-hack-for-conveying-context-without-confusion

    • Jobs to Be Done Theory: https://www.christenseninstitute.org/theory/jobs-to-be-done

    • The ultimate guide to JTBD | Bob Moesta (co-creator of the framework): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-jtbd-bob-moesta-co-creator-of-the-framework/

    • Zillow: https://www.zillow.com/

    • Zillow, Opendoor announce multi-year partnership: https://investor.opendoor.com/news-releases/news-release-details/zillow-opendoor-announce-multi-year-partnership

    • Building product at Stripe: craft, metrics, and customer obsession | Jeff Weinstein (Product lead): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-product-at-stripe-jeff-weinstein

    • Stripe Atlas: https://stripe.com/atlas

    Founders podcast: https://www.founderspodcast.com/

    • Uber will deliver ice cream to you today: https://www.dispatch.com/story/lifestyle/food/2016/07/13/uber-will-deliver-ice-cream/24201840007/

    • UberKittens: https://www.uber.com/newsroom/uberkittens/

    • UberPuppies: https://www.uber.com/blog/uberpuppies-want-to-play/

    Shoe Dog: A Memoir by the Creator of Nike: https://www.amazon.com/Shoe-Dog-Memoir-Creator-NIKE/dp/1471146723

    The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable: https://www.amazon.com/Black-Swan-Impact-Improbable-Incerto/dp/1400063515

    The Design of Everyday Things: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0465050654

    Shantaram: https://www.amazon.com/Shantaram-SHANTARAM-Paperback-GregoryDavidRoberts/dp/B00QPVJESC

    Full Swing on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81483353

    Formula 1: Drive to Survive on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80204890

    Break Point on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81569920

    Air on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/AIR-Matt-Damon/dp/B0B8Q3JMCG

    • Fi smart dog collar: https://tryfi.com/

    • Particle: https://particlenews.ai/

    • Sara Beykpour on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarabeykpour/

    • A new-parent gift guide for product managers: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-new-parent-gift-guide-for-product

    • Jeff Holden on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffholden/

    • Travis Kalanick on X: https://x.com/travisk

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    The ultimate guide to performance marketing | Timothy Davis (Shopify)

    The ultimate guide to performance marketing | Timothy Davis (Shopify)

    Timothy Davis has led performance marketing for all of Shopify for the past 2.5 years, and as a consultant has helped companies like Pinterest, LinkedIn, Redfin, and Eventbrite kickstart and scale their performance marketing teams. In every one of those cases, he got them so performant at paid growth that they significantly scale spend and investment in these channels. In our conversation, we cover:

    • When and how to start investing in performance marketing

    • Common mistakes companies make with paid ads

    • How to build and structure a performance marketing team

    • How to get your creatives performing better

    • Strategies for optimizing workflows and team efficiency

    • How AI will change performance marketing

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    BuildBetter—AI for product teams

    OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster

    Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments

    Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/performance-marketing-timothy-davis

    Where to find Timothy Davis:

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timothypatrickdavis/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Timothy’s background 

    (02:31) Understanding performance marketing 

    (06:31) The importance of paid search 

    (08:39) Identifying growth potential 

    (09:54) Case studies: Hairstory and Ipsy 

    (12:22) Experimenting with new platforms 

    (18:57) Choosing the right platforms 

    (20:23) LinkedIn for B2B marketing 

    (27:56) When to start investing in paid growth 

    (33:33) Common mistakes in performance marketing 

    (37:41) Working with agencies and consultants 

    (40:36) Hiring for performance marketing 

    (47:33) Metrics that matter 

    (54:43) Competitor analysis and CPC insights 

    (56:15) Custom reports and data visualization

    (56:38) Understanding impression and click share 

    (59:10) True competition metrics 

    (01:02:14) Attribution and incrementality 

    (01:08:52) Building a performance marketing team 

    (01:10:53) Creative and ad copy collaboration 

    (01:15:48) Managing workload and hiring strategy 

    (01:20:52) Training and onboarding new hires 

    (01:24:41) Impact of ATT on performance marketing 

    (01:25:56) The power of creative in ads 

    (01:29:47) Using AI in performance marketing 

    (01:37:16) Lightning round 

    Referenced:

    • Shopify: https://www.shopify.com/

    • What Is Performance Marketing?: https://www.shopify.com/blog/performance-marketing

    • Google AI: https://ai.google/

    • Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/

    • Eventbrite: https://www.eventbrite.com/

    • Booking.com: https://www.booking.com/

    • Credit Karma: https://www.creditkarma.com/

    • Hairstory: https://hairstory.com/

    • Google Display Network: https://www.semrush.com/blog/google-display-network/

    • SoftLayer Becomes Part of IBM’s SmartCloud: https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/deals/softlayer-becomes-part-of-ibm-s-smartcloud

    • Coca-Cola Freestyle: https://www.coca-colafreestyle.com/

    • Monday.com: https://monday.com/

    • How to sell your ideas and rise within your company | Casey Winters, Eventbrite: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-sell-your-ideas-and-rise-within

    • Thinking beyond frameworks | Casey Winters (Pinterest, Eventbrite, Airbnb, Tinder, Canva, Reddit, Grubhub): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/thinking-beyond-frameworks-casey

    The Signal and the Noise: Why So Many Predictions Fail—But Some Don’t: https://www.amazon.com/Signal-Noise-Many-Predictions-Fail-but/dp/0143125087

    • Courtney Wenneborg on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cwenneborg/

    • PPC Hero: https://www.ppchero.com/

    • Another Deep Dive into Auction Insights, by Jacob Brown: https://www.ppchero.com/another-deep-dive-into-auction-insights/

    •Multitouch: https://multitouch.app/

    • What is time decay attribution?: https://growthmethod.com/what-is-time-decay-attribution/

    • Linear: https://linear.app/

    • Consumer Heterogeneity and Paid Search Effectiveness: A Large-Scale Field Experiment: https://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/stadelis/BNT_ECMA_rev.pdf

    • ADT: https://www.adt.com/

    • Shopify Bursts: https://focus.business/blog/shopify-bursts/

    The First 90 Days: Proven Strategies for Getting Up to Speed Faster and Smarter: https://www.amazon.com/First-90-Days-Strategies-Expanded/dp/1422188612

    • Kat Nguyen on Shopify: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katngy/

    • Dollar Shave Club ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUG9qYTJMsI

    The Daily Stoic: 366 Meditations on Wisdom, Perseverance, and the Art of Living: https://www.amazon.com/Daily-Stoic-Meditations-Wisdom-Perseverance/dp/0735211736

    Great by Choice: Uncertainty, Chaos, and Luck—Why Some Thrive Despite Them All: https://www.amazon.com/Great-Choice-Uncertainty-Luck-Why-Despite/dp/0062120999

    X-Men ’97 on Disney+: https://www.disneyplus.com/series/x-men-97/vc1XIz90ZNH5

    RRR on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81476453

    The Playlist on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81186296

    Welcome to Wrexham on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/welcome-to-wrexham-c6906d50-d06c-40d1-a57c-1885d9dc2fef

    The Billion Dollar Code on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81074012

    • Magic Mind: https://magicmind.com/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    5 essential questions to craft a winning strategy | Roger Martin (author, advisor, speaker)

    5 essential questions to craft a winning strategy | Roger Martin (author, advisor, speaker)

    Roger Martin is one of the world’s leading experts on strategy and the author of Playing to Win, one of the most beloved books on strategy. He’s written extensively for the Harvard Business Review; consulted for dozens of Fortune 500 companies, including P&G, Lego, and Ford; and written 11 other books. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • The five key questions you need to answer to develop an effective strategy

    • Why most companies get strategy wrong

    • How to avoid “playing to play” instead of playing to win

    • Real-world strategy examples from Procter & Gamble, Southwest Airlines, Lego, and Figma

    • How to think about differentiation vs. low cost

    • Shortcomings of current strategy education

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Webflow—The web experience platform

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    Cycle—Your feedback hub, on autopilot

    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-strategy-roger-martin

    Where to find Roger Martin:

    • X: https://x.com/RogerLMartin

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/roger-martin-9916911a9/

    • Website: https://rogerlmartin.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Roger’s background

    (02:20) The importance of strategy

    (07:00) Challenges in developing strategy

    (08:30) Critique of modern strategy education

    (14:00) Hamilton Helmer and Richard Rumelt

    (17:40) Defining strategy

    (19:12) The Strategy Choice Cascade

    (23:20) Playing to win vs. playing to play

    (24:57) Examples of strategic success

    (30:49) Differentiation and moats

    (40:23) Applying strategy to real-world scenarios

    (43:47) Customer-centric strategy

    (44:45) Defining the market and product

    (45:59) Value chain and distribution

    (48:28) Cost leadership vs. differentiation

    (53:16) Capabilities and management systems

    (57:14) Competitive advantage and market positioning

    (01:02:41) Counterpositioning and fault lines

    (01:05:53) Adapting to AI and market changes

    (01:14:11) Betterment over perfection

    (01:18:42) Final thoughts on strategy

    Referenced:

    • Nearly 10% of S&P 500 CEOs are alumni of Procter & Gamble: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/02/06/10-of-s-p-500-ceos-pg.html

    • FigJam: https://www.figma.com/figjam/

    • Figma: https://www.figma.com/

    • What Is Resource-Based Theory?: https://www.igi-global.com/dictionary/the-impact-of-technological-governance-and-political-capabilities-on-firms-performances-under-economic-turbulence/67915

    • Michael Porter on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/professorporter/

    Competitive Strategy: Techniques for Analyzing Industries and Competitors: https://www.amazon.com/Competitive-Strategy-Techniques-Industries-Competitors/dp/0684841487

    • VRIO Framework Explained: https://strategicmanagementinsight.com/tools/vrio/

    • Business strategy with Hamilton Helmer (author of 7 Powers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/business-strategy-with-hamilton-helmer

    • Good Strategy, Bad Strategy | Richard Rumelt: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/good-strategy-bad-strategy-richard

    7 Powers: The Foundations of Business Strategy: https://www.amazon.com/7-Powers-Foundations-Business-Strategy/dp/0998116319

    • Boston Consulting Group: https://www.bcg.com/

    • Bruce Henderson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Henderson

    • Lego: https://www.lego.com

    • Vanguard: https://investor.vanguard.com/

    • Southwest Airlines: https://www.southwest.com/

    • How Amazon Managed to Dethrone Walmart: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/20/technology/how-amazon-beat-walmart.html

    • GM Lost a 10-Year Battle with Tesla, Pulling the Plug on a Long Line of EVs: https://www.forbes.com/sites/brookecrothers/2023/07/09/gm-killed-its-electric-cars-and-lost-a-10-year-battle-with-tesla/

    • Westlaw: https://www.westlawinternational.com/

    • What Is an Economic Moat? Why Warren Buffett Says It Matters for Investors: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/economic-moat-why-warren-buffett-160046125.html

    • Salomon Brothers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salomon_Brothers

    • US Airways: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways

    • Four Seasons: https://www.fourseasons.com/

    • Michael Dell on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mdell/

    • Bill Gates on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/williamhgates/

    • Mandarin Oriental: https://www.mandarinoriental.com/en/

    • Continental Lite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Lite

    • Ted (airline): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_(airline)

    • Case Study: Oil of Olay: https://www.studocu.com/es/document/universidad-de-murcia/estrategia-de-marketing/case-study-old-of-olay/95079369

    • AG Lafley on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ag-lafley-2381b3201/

    • Jack Bogle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Bogle

    • Seven Ways Windows 95 Changed the World: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ianmorris/2015/08/24/windows-95-changed-the-world/

    • Where to Start with Strategy? Focus on Betterment: https://rogermartin.medium.com/where-to-start-with-strategy-bae40506304c

    • Brick by brick: The man who rebuilt the house of Lego shares his leadership secrets: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2016/12/08/brick-by-brick-the-man-who-rebuilt-the-house-of-lego-shares-his-leadership-secrets/

    A New Way to Think: Your Guide to Superior Management Effectiveness: https://www.amazon.com/New-Way-Think-Management-Effectiveness/dp/164782351X/

    Playing to Win: How Strategy Really Works: https://www.amazon.com/Playing-Win-Strategy-Really-Works/dp/142218739X

    The Design of Business: Why Design Thinking Is the Next Competitive Advantage: https://www.amazon.com/Design-Business-Thinking-Competitive-Advantage/dp/1422177807

    The Opposable Mind: How Successful Leaders Win Through Integrative Thinking: https://www.amazon.com/Opposable-Mind-Successful-Integrative-Thinking/dp/1422118924

    When More Is Not Better: Overcoming America’s Obsession with Economic Efficiency: https://www.amazon.com/When-More-Not-Better-Overcoming/dp/1647820065

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    What most people miss about marketing | Rory Sutherland (Vice Chairman of Ogilvy UK, author)

    What most people miss about marketing | Rory Sutherland (Vice Chairman of Ogilvy UK, author)

    Rory Sutherland is widely regarded as one of the most influential (and most entertaining) thinkers in marketing and behavioral science. He’s the vice chairman of Ogilvy UK, the author of Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life, and the founder of Nudgestock, the world’s biggest festival of behavioral science and creativity. He champions thinking from first principles and using human psychology—what he calls “thinking psycho-logically”—over mere logic. In our conversation, we cover:

    • Why good products don’t always succeed, and bad ones don’t necessarily fail

    • Why less functionality can sometimes be more valuable

    • The importance of fame in building successful brands

    • The importance of timing in product success

    • The concept of “most advanced, yet acceptable”

    • Why metrics-driven workplaces can be demotivating

    • Lots of real-world case studies

    • Much more

    Note: We encountered some technical difficulties that led to less than ideal video quality for this episode, but the lessons from this conversation made it impossible for me to not publish it anyway. Thanks for your understanding and for bearing with the less-than-ideal video quality. 

    Brought to you by:

    Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application

    Cycle—Your feedback hub, on autopilot

    Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace

    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-most-people-miss-about-marketing

    Where to find Rory Sutherland:

    • X: https://x.com/rorysutherland

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rorysutherland

    • Book: Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life: https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Curious-Science-Creating-Business/dp/006238841X

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Rory’s background

    (02:37) The success and failure of products

    (04:08) Why the urge to appear serious can be a disaster in marketing

    (08:05) The role of distinctiveness in product design

    (12:29) The MAYA principle

    (15:50) How thinking irrationally can be advantageous

    (17:40) The fault of multiple-choice tests

    (21:31) Companies that have successfully implemented out-of-the-box thinking

    (30:31) “Psycho-logical” thinking

    (31:45) The hare and the dog metaphor

    (38:51) Marketing’s crucial role in product adoption

    (49:21) The quirks of Google Glass

    (55:44) Survivorship bias

    (56:09) Balancing rational ideas with irrational ideas

    (01:06:19) The rise and fall of tech innovations

    (01:09:54) Consistency, distinctiveness, and clarity

    (01:21:12) Considering psychological, technological, and economic factors in parallel

    (01:23:35) Where to find Rory

    Referenced:

    • Google Glass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Glass

    • Meta Portal TV: https://www.meta.com/portal/products/portal-tv/

    • Rory’s quote in a LinkedIn post: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/brad-jackson-04766642_the-urge-to-appear-serious-is-a-disaster-activity-7093497742710210560-1LYN/

    • The MAYA Principle: Design for the Future, but Balance It with Your Users’ Present: https://www.interaction-design.org/literature/article/design-for-the-future-but-balance-it-with-your-users-present

    • Ogilvy: https://www.ogilvy.com/

    • MCI: https://www.mci.world/

    • Veuve Clicquot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veuve_Clicquot

    • Why do the French call the British ‘the roast beefs’?: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/2913151.stm

    The Killing on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/the-killing-f5da5c2d-4626-4ba9-bcf3-ff5f891771fb

    • Original The Killing on BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017h7m1

    • The Mandarin Oriental, Hong Kong: https://www.mandarinoriental.com/en/hong-kong/victoria-harbour

    • SAT: https://satsuite.collegeboard.org/sat

    • The Widening Racial Scoring Gap on the SAT College Admissions Test: https://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html

    • What is the age of the captain?: https://www.icopilots.com/what-is-the-age-of-the-captain/

    • Octopus Energy: https://octopus.energy/

    • Kraken: https://octopusenergy.group/kraken-technologies

    • Toby Shannan: https://theorg.com/org/shopify/org-chart/toby-shannan

    • Dunbar’s number: Why we can only maintain 150 relationships: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191001-dunbars-number-why-we-can-only-maintain-150-relationships

    • AO: https://ao.com/

    • Zappos: https://www.zappos.com/

    • Joe Cano on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeycano/

    • John Ralston Saul’s website: https://www.johnralstonsaul.com/

    Voltaire’s Bastards: The Dictatorship of Reason in the West: https://www.amazon.com/Voltaires-Bastards-Dictatorship-Reason-West/dp/0679748199

    • Psycho-Logic: Why Too Much Logic Deters Magic: https://coffeeandjunk.com/psycho-logic/

    • Herbert Simon’s Decision-Making Approach: https://bura.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/4995/1/Fulltext.pdf

    • Robert Trivers’s website: https://roberttrivers.com/Welcome.html

    • Crazy Ivan: https://jollycontrarian.com/index.php?title=Crazy_Ivan

    • The Joys of Being a Late Tech Adopter: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/28/technology/personaltech/joys-late-tech-adopter.html

    • Jean-Claude Van Damme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Van_Damme

    • Tim Berners-Lee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee

    • Edward Jenner and the history of smallpox and vaccination: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200696/

    • The real story behind penicillin: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/the-real-story-behind-the-worlds-first-antibiotic

    • What Are Japanese Toilets?: https://www.bigbathroomshop.co.uk/info/blog/japanese-toilets/

    • reMarkable: https://remarkable.com/

    • Chumby: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumby

    • Survivorship bias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

    • Jony Ive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jony_Ive

    • Marc Newson’s website: https://marc-newson.com/

    • Designing Men: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2013/11/jony-ive-marc-newson-design-auction

    • Qantas A330: https://marc-newson.com/qantas-a330/

    • Herodotus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus

    • Big Decision? Consider It Both Drunk and Sober: https://www.forbes.com/sites/chunkamui/2016/03/22/wine-and-sleep-make-for-better-decisions/?sh=5c97fdc524b1

    • How Henry Ford and Thomas Edison killed the electric car: https://www.speakev.com/threads/how-henry-ford-and-thomas-edison-killed-the-electric-car.4270/

    • Watch Jay Leno get nostalgic and swoon over this 1909 EV: https://thenextweb.com/news/jay-leno-talk-about-electric-car-1909-baker

    Jay Leno’s Garage: https://www.youtube.com/@jaylenosgarage

    • Nudgestock: https://nudgestock.com/

    • Akio Morita: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akio_Morita

    • Don Norman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donnorman/

    • What Makes Tesla’s Business Model Different: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/active-trading/072115/what-makes-teslas-business-model-different.asp

    • Monica Lewinsky on X: https://x.com/MonicaLewinsky

    Blindsight: The (Mostly) Hidden Ways Marketing Reshapes Our Brains: azon.com/Blindsight-Mostly-Hidden-Marketing-Reshapes-ebook/dp/B07ZKZ5DWF

    Branding That Means Business: https://www.amazon.com/Branding-that-Means-Business-Economist-ebook/dp/B09QBCCH9N

    • PwC: https://www.pwc.com

    • Ryanair: https://www.ryanair.com

    • British Airways: https://www.britishairways.com/

    • Wrigley’s began as a soap business: know when to pivot: https://theamericangenius.com/entrepreneur/wrigleys-began-as-soap-know-when-to-pivot/

    Transport for Humans: https://www.amazon.com/Transport-Humans-Perspectives-Pete-Dyson/dp/1913019357

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



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