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    Brian Balfour: 10 lessons on career, growth, and life

    enOctober 05, 2023
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    Podcast Summary

    • The trap of solving one problem and expecting everything to get easierShifting our mindset to embrace the challenge of solving problems allows for personal growth and increased resilience.

      The mindset of solving one problem to make everything easier is a trap. In reality, solving one problem leads to taking on bigger and more challenging problems over time. Hoping that things will get easier sets us up for frustration, anxiety, and stress. Instead, we should shift our mentality to see that solving a problem allows us to take on an even harder problem. This shift in thinking actually reduces stress. Brian Balfour, founder and CEO of Reforge, has learned this lesson through his experiences and keeps a Notion doc of lessons learned to refer back to. By acknowledging that problems will always be there and embracing the challenge, we can navigate our way through with more resilience and growth.

    • Focus on the work, not the personAssessing someone's abilities and performance based on their actual work rather than subjective interpretations or conversations provides a more accurate understanding of their skills and contributions.

      It is important to inspect the work and not the person. Judging a person's capabilities and performance solely based on a conversation or interview is often misleading due to biases and subjective interpretations. Instead, focusing on the actual work they have created provides a more meaningful signal of their abilities and approach to their job. This applies not only to hiring decisions but also to assessing an individual's performance in the workplace. By looking at the tangible output and the assets they have helped create, you gain a clearer understanding of their skills and contributions. Relying on conversations and narratives alone can lead to misunderstandings and misjudgments.

    • Improving Recognition and Retention Through Effective Assessment StrategiesImplementing regular processes for employees to record and document their work internally can help acknowledge their efforts and contributions, leading to better decision-making and overall employee satisfaction.

      Accurately assessing someone's work and contributions is crucial in retaining talented individuals and preventing them from feeling disenfranchised. Traditional methods, like relying on surface-level conversations or a game of telephone, often lead to misunderstanding and undervaluing someone's achievements. Implementing regular processes for employees to record and document their work internally can help surface their creations and accomplishments during important decision-making conversations. It's not just about tracking wins, but also acknowledging the efforts and roles individuals play in projects, even if they don't result in obvious successes. Lightweight methods such as taking screenshots and writing bullet points can be effective without overwhelming employees. Additionally, the focus should be on shipping customer-facing products rather than just internal documents. Creating a platform like Reforge's Artifacts can provide a space to store and showcase individuals' work, allowing others to learn from their solutions and contribute to problem-solving in a similar but unique way, like open-source code.

    • Prioritizing work over individuals for successful team growth.Encourage team members to present ideas upfront, focusing on the ultimate goal. Collaboration and regular updates ensure alignment and adaptability for achieving desired outcomes.

      When leading a growing team, it is crucial to prioritize the work over the person. As initiatives and ideas emerge from the organization, they often become filtered and diluted before reaching the decision-maker. This can lead to watered down projects that do not effectively contribute to winning in the startup world. Instead, leaders should encourage their team members to present their ideas for achieving success upfront, regardless of the perceived costs or potential challenges. By focusing on the ultimate goal and working backwards from there, leaders can collaborate with their team to find innovative solutions that align with the desired outcome. Regularly revisiting and updating the ideal end state ensures that everyone stays aligned and adaptable to changing circumstances.

    • Embracing a Visual and Agile Approach to PlanningBy prioritizing visual representations and agility in the planning process, teams can have more productive discussions, make faster progress, and continually refine their strategies for better results.

      Traditional planning processes can be cumbersome and ineffective, particularly in rapidly growing or early-stage companies. Instead, focusing on creating visual representations of the desired user experience or product vision can be far more meaningful and productive. By utilizing assets like product visuals, potential marketing assets, or customer-facing materials, teams can have more productive discussions and make faster progress. While this approach may not be easily scalable or suitable for larger organizations, in smaller teams with a high need for agility, it can be highly effective. The key is to quickly get the major components of the plan out and then focus on shipping, iterating, and adapting towards the ideal end state. This flexibility and speed of execution can lead to better results and reduce the frustration and attachment to rigid plans that often hinder progress. Overall, a more visual and adaptable planning approach can empower teams to make progress and continually refine their strategies.

    • Embracing the Never-ending Nature of ProblemsBy accepting that solving one problem leads to bigger ones, founders can reduce stress and frustration, leading to more effective problem-solving and personal growth.

      The never-ending nature of problems is something founders need to embrace. Rather than hoping that solving one problem will make everything easier, it's important to understand that as you solve problems, you'll inevitably take on bigger ones. This mindset shift can reduce stress and frustration. Ray Dalio's concept of being a "problem-solving machine" perfectly captures this idea. As a leader, you become the catcher of all problems, constantly putting out fires. Many people end up in management roles because they think it's the only way to progress in their careers. However, at Reforge, they've flattened the organization by converting managers into "Captain IC" roles, allowing individuals to continue growing as senior individual contributors without sacrificing compensation or career progression.

    • Redefining Management: The Rise of Captain-Level Individual ContributorsBy creating captain-level individual contributor (IC) roles and incentivizing individuals to pursue these positions, organizations can prevent inefficiency and dissatisfaction caused by the traditional manager role, leading to happier and more creative workplaces.

      The traditional manager role can lead to a cycle of inefficiency and dissatisfaction within organizations. By creating captain-level individual contributor (IC) roles, companies can distribute strategic problem-solving responsibilities while allowing managers to focus on hiring, coaching, and team positioning. This approach prevents the "manager death cycle" where individuals are thrust into managerial positions without the necessary skills or desire for such roles. Additionally, compensating captain IC roles higher than managers can incentivize individuals to pursue these positions intentionally, ensuring that those in leadership are passionate and skilled in their work. As AI tools continue to develop, the future may favor these super IC types over traditional managers, leading to smaller, more creative teams and happier workplaces.

    • Embracing experimentation and risk-taking for growthCompanies should embrace experimentation, allocate limited resources to each experiment, embrace continuous improvement, prioritize the first six months for growth initiatives, and avoid stagnation by making progress throughout the year.

      Companies should be willing to embrace experimentation and take risks in order to uncover new opportunities for growth. Just like planting seeds and seeing which ones thrive, companies should try out new ideas and initiatives, knowing that some may fail. The key is to allocate limited resources, such as funding and small teams, to each experiment to prevent overinvestment in ideas that are not yet proven. Additionally, it is essential to recognize that problems are a part of the growth process and that they never truly end. By accepting this reality and focusing on continuous improvement, companies can navigate challenges more effectively. Furthermore, when planning for growth, companies should prioritize the first six months of the year, as this is when initiatives can have the greatest impact due to longer buying cycles. Failing to make progress during this period limits the options for influencing growth in the latter part of the year.

    • Understanding the System Dynamics of GrowthIdentifying and solving problems in different parts of the growth system, rather than just focusing on specific areas, is crucial for successful growth.

      Growth is a system between acquisition, retention, and monetization. Changing one aspect affects the others. This lesson goes deeper than just understanding the growth model. It's about identifying the problem and finding the solution within a different part of the system. For example, teams often focus solely on improving specific levers within a specific area, without realizing that the problem might stem from a different part of the system. Great growth experts understand this system-level thinking, which separates them from average ones. This kind of thinking is even more crucial in marketplace and network products because the system dynamics are amplified. An example is Airbnb, where a retention team realized that trip quality and host quality were key factors in guest retention, prompting them to shift their focus to improving the trip experience instead.

    • Aligning incentives and creating the right amount of friction for desired outcomes.Designing incentives that align with goals and adding the right amount of friction can drive desired behaviors and outcomes, even if it initially decreases conversion rates.

      Aligning incentives is crucial for driving the right behaviors and outcomes. Brian Balfour's experience with the sales team highlights the importance of designing incentives that encourage salespeople to focus on the right target personas and use cases, rather than chasing any potential deal. By implementing a system where salespeople were not compensated for selling certain types of personas or companies, the behavior shifted and sales became more aligned with the intended target audience. This example demonstrates the need to align incentives with the desired goals and outcomes. Additionally, in the context of Reforge's program, the lesson of creating the right amount of friction, rather than constantly reducing it, is emphasized. Adding the right amount of friction can lead to better down-funnel experiences and engagement metrics, even if it initially decreases conversion rates. The challenge lies in advocating for and implementing such strategies in organizations and products, as short-term gains often overshadow long-term success.

    • The interconnectedness of growth and the power of going against the normSuccess in various aspects such as education, advertising, product design, and growth tactics can be achieved by considering the interconnectedness of different components and by adopting a counterintuitive approach.

      When it comes to growth, all the different components of a system are interconnected. If you see a change happening in one area, it's important to consider how it may impact the others. Additionally, doing the opposite of what everyone else is doing can be a successful strategy for gaining traction. The example of Reforge's approach to education shows that going against the norm and doing something counterintuitive can lead to success. This principle applies not only to education but also to advertising, product design, and growth tactics. By looking at what others are doing and then doing something completely different, you can stand out and achieve better performance. It's an ongoing game of staying ahead and flipping the pendulum back when necessary.

    • Embracing the Opposite: Finding Success Through Unconventional ApproachesInstead of following the trends, seek out new opportunities by exploring the opposite. By going against the grain and embracing different approaches, individuals and businesses can discover their unique edge.

      A valuable approach in any field is to explore the opposite of what everyone else is doing. Instead of mimicking trends, the goal should be to find new opportunities by experimenting with different approaches. This concept is echoed in the book by Rick Rubin, where he encourages creators to add noise where there is quiet and make things yellow when they are blue. It's evident that many industries, including AI and podcasting, are gravitating towards similar strategies. However, the real winners will be those who establish guardrails against following these trends and instead focus on doing the opposite. For example, LinkedIn is using AI not to generate content but to facilitate more user-generated content, which stands out and ranks higher. Similarly, top podcasts like Lex Friedman's and Acquired have defied conventional advice by releasing long, guest-less episodes, attracting significant audiences. By exploring the white space and embracing the opposite, individuals and businesses can discover a unique edge.

    • Focusing on Use Cases: Shaping Your Product and Growth StrategyUnderstanding and defining the specific problems your product solves and the value it provides allows you to shape your product and growth strategy effectively, leading to meaningful impact on your business's growth trajectory.

      When it comes to understanding your customers and building a successful product, focusing on use cases rather than personas is crucial. While personas emphasize categorizing and understanding the person or category of person, use cases delve into the specific problems your product solves, the value it provides, and why users choose it over alternatives. By identifying and defining these components, you can not only shape your product and growth strategy more effectively but also determine important metrics such as retention and activation. Understanding the natural frequency of encountering these problems guides your approach and creates a meaningful impact on the growth trajectory of your business.

    • The Inbound Marketing Playbook and the Use Case Map Framework: Strategies for capturing attention, reducing friction, and expanding customer reach.In order to be successful, companies should focus on building relationships with potential customers, addressing multiple use cases, and prioritizing use cases over personas.

      Companies should focus on capturing the attention and building relationships with potential customers who are not in the market yet, but will be in the future. This approach, known as the inbound marketing playbook, can reduce friction when customers are ready to make a purchase. Additionally, it is important for companies to consider multiple use cases and problems that their product can solve, rather than narrowing their focus on a single use case. By identifying and addressing various use cases, companies can make their product successful for a wider range of customers and capture more value. This strategy is outlined in the use case map framework, which helps define the problem, the target audience, alternatives, differentiation, and the natural frequency of the problem. Reforge offers a course on retention and engagement that dives deeper into this topic. Ultimately, companies should prioritize use cases over personas.

    • The Importance of Being Specific in Product Development and MarketingTo achieve growth and consistency, it is crucial to define the target audience and exclude those who do not fit the specific persona and use case. This concept applies not only to product and marketing but also to hiring and defining company culture.

      Solving for everyone is solving for no one. This applies to both product development and marketing strategies. Many growth mistakes occur when teams fail to be specific about who they are not solving for. It is essential to draw clear lines and define the target audience. A case study from early HubSpot illustrates this point. They initially sold their marketing tool to four different use cases that seemed similar on the surface but had unique needs beneath. To address this, they focused on a specific persona and use case while excluding the others. By aligning sales, success, and marketing behind this decision, they ensured consistency. This concept of being specific about who you are not solving for extends beyond product and marketing and should also be applied in areas like hiring and defining company culture.

    • The Importance of Setting Boundaries and Making Trade-OffsPrioritizing our own needs and not trying to please everyone can lead to a more fulfilling and less stressful life.

      Trying to please everyone and solve for every aspect of our lives can lead to stress and anxiety. Just like in wedding planning, the most miserable couples were the ones who tried to accommodate everyone's desires and expectations, instead of focusing on what truly mattered to them. Similarly, in relationships and work-life balance, we often find ourselves trying to make everyone happy and neglecting our own needs and priorities. It is crucial to acknowledge that everything in life is a trade-off and not being able to say no or set boundaries can cause unnecessary problems. Understanding that it's impossible to please everyone and making trade-offs can help us experience more fulfilment and reduce stress.

    • Building a successful product development environment requires careful consideration of team fit and values.Hiring the right product managers and aligning them with the team's goals is crucial for smooth and productive development processes. Don't dismiss the role based on a few negative experiences.

      Creating a successful environment for product development requires acknowledging and defining the types of people that fit into the team. When individuals who don't align with the team's goals and values are brought on board, it leads to friction and frustration. Different companies have different approaches when it comes to hiring product managers and building their teams, and there is no one-size-fits-all solution. The decision on whether to hire product managers early on depends on the founders' vision, the target customers, and the specific product being developed. Building a product for a different audience than the team's expertise may lead to time-consuming and less productive processes. It is important to find the right balance and avoid dismissing the role of product managers altogether based on negative experiences with a few individuals.

    • The Power of Sparring Partners in Personal Growth and ProgressEngaging with sparring partners who share common goals and push boundaries can lead to creating and delivering better products, ultimately driving success.

      Having sparring partners, rather than mentors or coaches, can contribute significantly to personal growth and progress. While mentors and coaches offer guidance and advice from the sidelines, sparring partners are in the arena with you, engaging in a reciprocal exchange of ideas and challenges. They share common goals and are willing to push boundaries to help each other improve. Unlike forced and rigid mentorship programs, sparring partners foster fluidity and a deeper level of understanding. These relationships are often found in mastermind groups or even co-founder relationships. Engaging with sparring partners can lead to the creation and delivery of better products, ultimately serving as a tangible measure of success.

    • The Value of Sparring Partners in Your CareerSurrounding yourself with individuals who think differently and challenge your ideas can energize and stimulate personal and professional growth.

      Finding sparring partners, rather than mentors or coaches, can be incredibly valuable in your career. These sparring partners are the bonds and relationships that push you for many years, providing different perspectives and giving honest and hard-hitting feedback. Brian Balfour highlights the importance of surrounding yourself with individuals who think differently and challenge your ideas. These sparring partners, such as Aaron White and Ariel Diaz, energize and stimulate Brian because of their unique perspectives. Their one-liner perspectives often hit home and reveal uncomfortable truths. By setting a tone of openness and depth, these relationships allow for meaningful and honest conversations that lead to personal and professional growth.

    • Growing new initiatives requires double the effort and energy compared to current strategies.Slowly testing new ideas won't have significant impact; new initiatives must grow at a larger rate than existing strategies, while avoiding overwhelming the organization.

      When companies want to introduce new ideas or make changes, they need to provide 2X the effort and energy compared to what they're currently doing. Many businesses make the mistake of slowly testing and trying out new things, but for these new initiatives to truly make a significant impact, they need to grow at a much larger rate than their existing strategies. For example, if a company wants to diversify away from paid marketing and invest in SEO, the SEO efforts must be growing at a multiple of the growth rate of paid acquisition in order to achieve the desired outcome. However, it's important not to overwhelm the organization with too many new ideas at once. Companies should start small, but consistently provide support and energy to these new initiatives. Ultimately, new bets take time and effort to yield results, and it's crucial to recognize and address this reality.

    • HubSpot's Journey: From Marketing Automation to Platform CompanyStart with a "wedge" and gradually expand, overcoming the challenge of being known for one thing. HubSpot's successful expansion strategy offers valuable lessons for other companies. Reforge offers free resources to delve deeper.

      HubSpot started as a marketing automation and email marketing company, but they are now trying to position themselves as a platform company, starting with their CRM. Overcoming the inertia of being known for one thing and expanding into other products is a challenge many companies face. Brian Balfour emphasizes the importance of starting with a "wedge" and gradually expanding, while also acknowledging the fear that people may only associate the company with that initial offering. There are valuable lessons to be learned from HubSpot's journey, as they have executed their expansion strategy successfully over a long period of time. To delve deeper into these lessons, Reforge offers resources that can be accessed for free.

    • Evaluating Candidates Based on Thought Process and Problem-Solving ApproachFocus on candidates who demonstrate a systematic approach to problem-solving and have the potential to tackle challenges within the organization, rather than those with ready-made solutions.

      When evaluating candidates, Brian Balfour focuses more on examining their thought process and problem-solving approach rather than asking specific interview questions. He looks for individuals who can break down their thinking and approach to a given task, as this indicates their potential to tackle similar challenges within the organization. Balfour's goal is not to find candidates with ready-made solutions, but rather those who demonstrate a systematic approach to problem-solving. This approach allows him to have confidence in their ability to find solutions when faced with similar problems in the future. By emphasizing a candidate's analytical thinking and problem-solving skills, Balfour seeks to build a team with the right mindset and capabilities.

    • Nurturing Independence and Decision-Making Skills in ChildrenEmpowering children to make choices and learn from mistakes cultivates their independence and critical thinking abilities, setting them up for a successful future.

      As parents, our role is to gradually shift the decision-making power from us to our children as they grow. From the helpless dependence at age zero to complete independence at age 18, we should guide them in making increasingly important choices throughout their lives. Even at a young age, we can start teaching them about consequences by allowing them to make their own decisions, even if it means making mistakes and learning from them. This approach fosters independence and critical thinking skills, ensuring they are capable of making their own decisions when they reach adulthood. Ultimately, our goal is to create an environment that empowers our children to make informed decisions and set them up for a successful life.

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    (54:01) Automating user research

    (01:02:27) AI in everyday life

    (01:06:05) Lessons from failure

    (01:14:34) Lightning round

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Improve strategy, influence, and decision-making by understanding your brain | Evan LaPointe (founder of CORE Sciences)

    Improve strategy, influence, and decision-making by understanding your brain | Evan LaPointe (founder of CORE Sciences)

    Evan LaPointe is the founder of CORE Sciences, which teaches companies and individuals how our brains work and how that translates to improved collaboration, better products, faster decision-making, and more growth. Previously, Evan was the co-founder of Satellite, the fourth-largest analytics company on the internet today (it mostly runs behind the scenes, and pretty much everyone listening will have used it today without knowing it), which was acquired by Adobe, where he later ran product strategy, innovation, and long-range thinking for Adobe’s digital experiences business. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • The three different systems of the brain

    • How knowing this can help you become more influential

    • How understanding different brain states will help you increase productivity and creativity

    • How to improve your vision and strategy skills

    • How to design a work environment that fosters innovation

    • How to build better relationships at work

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Webflow—The web experience platform

    Explo—Embed customer-facing analytics in your product

    Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments

    Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/understanding-your-brain-evan-lapointe

    Where to find Evan LaPointe:

    • X: https://x.com/evanlapointe

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/evanlapointe/

    • Website: https://www.core-sciences.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Evan’s background

    (02:37) Understanding the brain’s complex systems

    (07:17) The three core brain systems: safety, reward, and purpose

    (11:03) Applying brain science to team dynamics

    (14:27) The role of personality in team performance

    (17:27) Creating effective work environments

    (23:16) The science of meetings and decision-making

    (29:35) Enhancing strategy and vision

    (54:46) Understanding personality traits in strategy and vision

    (58:58) Tactical tips for increasing openness

    (01:05:46) Building influence and effective relationships

    (01:21:17) The importance of trust and appeal in relationships

    (01:36:47) Creating a positive organizational habitat

    (01:50:35) Enhancing focus and productivity

    (02:00:58) Practical tips for deep work and gamma time

    (02:07:11) Lightning round

    Referenced:

    • The Most Complicated Object in the Universe: https://today.uconn.edu/2018/03/complicated-object-universe/#

    • The Myers-Briggs personality test: https://www.themyersbriggs.com/en-US/Products-and-Services/Myers-Briggs

    • The Big Five personality test: https://www.thepersonalitylab.org/

    • The Enneagram personality test: https://enneagramtest.com/

    • An inside look at how Figma builds product | Yuhki Yamashita (CPO of Figma): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/an-inside-look-at-how-figma-builds

    • Vision, conviction, and hype: How to build 0 to 1 inside a company | Mihika Kapoor (Product at Figma): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/vision-conviction-hype-mihika-kapoor

    • Dylan Field live at Config: Intuition, simplicity, and the future of design: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/dylan-field-live-at-config

    • An inside look at Figma’s unique GTM motion | Claire Butler (first GTM hire): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/an-inside-look-at-figmas-unique-bottom

    • Inside Canva: Coaches not managers, giving away your Legos, and running profitably | Cameron Adams (co-founder and CPO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-canva-with-cameron-adams

    • The Science-Business Mismatch That Puts Your Change at Risk: https://changemanagementreview.com/the-science-business-mismatch-that-puts-your-change-at-risk/

    • Daniel Pink on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielpink/

    • Trello: https://trello.com/

    • Cron: https://cronhq.notion.site/

    • The Double Diamond framework for design thinking: https://www.fluxspace.io/resources/the-4-ds-double-diamond-design-thinking-model

    • CORE Sciences - Tips on Priming Great Meetings PDF: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gm21cj0vi0bjosyu8kd69/CORE-Sciences-Tips-on-Priming-Great-Meetings.pdf?rlkey=6fznhv7bbsxm8nj8m4luej17t&st=2eduirad&dl=0

    • How to grow a subscription business | Yuriy Timen (Grammarly, Canva, Airtable): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/transform-your-subscription-growth

    • Brené Brown’s website: https://brenebrown.com/

    • The CORE personality test: https://www.core-sciences.com/new-core-identity

    • Burning Man: https://burningman.org/

    • Stripe: https://stripe.com/

    • Jony Ive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jony_Ive

    • Albert Einstein quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7133605-make-things-as-simple-as-possible-but-no-simpler

    • Elden Ring: https://en.bandainamcoent.eu/elden-ring/elden-ring

    • Abilene paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox

    The Challenger Sale: Taking Control of the Customer Conversation: https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Sale-Control-Customer-Conversation/dp/1591844355

    • The surprising truth about what closes deals: Insights from 2.5m sales conversations | Matt Dixon (author of The Challenger Sale and The JOLT Effect): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/close-more-deals-matt-dixon

    • Siqi Chan on X: https://x.com/blader

    • Runway: https://runway.com/

    • Shreyas Doshi on pre-mortems, the LNO framework, the three levels of product work, why most execution problems are strategy problems, and ROI vs. opportunity cost thinking: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/episode-3-shreyas-doshi

    • Wolfgang Puck’s website: https://wolfgangpuck.com/

    • Steven Spielberg on X: https://x.com/sspielberg93

    • John Williams’s website: https://www.johnwilliams.org/

    • The paths to power: How to grow your influence and advance your career | Jeffrey Pfeffer (author of 7 Rules of Power, professor at Stanford GSB): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-paths-to-power-jeffrey-pfeffer

    • Warby Parker: https://www.warbyparker.com/

    • Simon Sinek’s website: https://simonsinek.com/

    • What is the function of the various brainwaves?: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the-function-of-t-1997-12-22/

    • CORE Sciences - Your Brain's 9 Modes PDF: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/figg8upeaawir1hnxv0ew/CORE-Sciences-Your-Brain-s-9-Modes.pdf?rlkey=u3zaonxvycvupurq6pwysckfq&st=os06xjnr&dl=0

    Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It: Unlock Your Persuasion Potential in Professional and Personal Life: https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-Depended/dp/0062407805

    The Person and the Situation: Perspectives of Social Psychology: https://www.amazon.com/Person-Situation-Perspectives-Social-Psychology/dp/1905177445

    Cambridge Fundamentals of Neuroscience in Psychology: https://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Fundamentals-Neuroscience-Psychology/dp/B08QYNDNYX

    • Robert Greene’s books on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Robert-Greene/author/B001IGV3IS

    Misbehaving: The Making of Behavioral Economics: https://www.amazon.com/Misbehaving-Behavioral-Economics-Richard-Thaler/dp/039335279X

    • Beehiiv: https://www.beehiiv.com/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    How embracing your emotions will accelerate your career | Joe Hudson (executive coach, Art of Accomplishment)

    How embracing your emotions will accelerate your career | Joe Hudson (executive coach, Art of Accomplishment)

    Joe Hudson is one of the most sought-after executive coaches in Silicon Valley. He is the founder of Art of Accomplishment, a transformational coaching program that has helped tens of thousands of people, including many tech executives and founders from companies like Apple, OpenAI, and Google. His unique method of transformation comes from over 25 years of exploring neurological, psychological, and spiritual traditions, tested against real-world challenges. In our conversation, Joe shares:

    • Why the critical voice in your head is always wrong, and how to change your relationship with that voice

    • Why authenticity trumps self-improvement

    • The importance of embracing all of your emotions

    • How to create more enjoyable and effective meetings

    • The power of gratitude in transforming your life

    • Practical experiments for personal growth

    • Much more

    Apply for Joe’s Connection Course:

    Thousands of students have taken Joe’s most popular experience, the Connection Course. Unlike most online courses, there is no reading, lectures, or written homework. It is a three-week experiential deep dive where you will apply your learnings to real-life problems—how to make your team more productive, communicate more effectively, and resolve conflicts with ease. Apply here and use the code LENNY for $300 off your enrollment: view.life/lenny.

    Brought to you by:

    BuildBetter—AI for product teams

    WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs

    Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace

    Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/embracing-your-emotions-joe-hudson

    Where to find Joe Hudson:

    • X: https://x.com/FU_joehudson

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-hudson/

    • Website: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/

    • Podcast: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/podcast

    • Linktree: https://linktr.ee/theartofaccomplishment

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Joe’s background

    (02:31) The critical voice in your head

    (06:39) Changing your relationship with the critical voice

    (13:19) Understanding and embracing emotions

    (19:52) The importance of emotional fluidity

    (24:40) Questioning assumptions and self-perception

    (30:25) The consequences of avoiding emotions

    (36:57) Experimenting with self-improvement

    (39:42) Understanding efficiency and enjoyment

    (43:17) The power of enjoyment in daily tasks

    (45:03) Innate enjoyment vs. learned enjoyment

    (46:31) Authenticity vs. self-improvement

    (50:01) Embracing emotional experiences

    (55:49) How understanding your emotions helps you make better decisions

    (01:02:53) Creating effective teams and meetings

    (01:10:40) Gratitude practice for personal growth

    (01:15:36) Conclusion and final thoughts

    Referenced:

    Descartes’ Error: Emotion, Reason, and the Human Brain: https://www.amazon.com/Descartes-Error-Emotion-Reason-Human/dp/014303622X/

    • Joe’s quote about joy: https://x.com/FU_joehudson/status/1756837774743790030

    • “Emotional Inquiry”: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/podcast/emotional-inquiry

    Inside Out 2: https://movies.disney.com/inside-out-2

    • “Question the Assumption”: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/podcast/question-the-assumption

    • Bodega Bay: https://www.bodegabay.com/

    • Elon Musk reveals the interview question he asks every candidate to instantly spot a liar: https://www.good.is/elon-musk-reveals-the-one-job-interview-question-he-asks-every-candidate-to-instantly-spot-a-liar

    • Great Decisions course: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/course/great-decisions-course

    • HBR Analytic Services: https://hbr.org/hbr-analytic-services

    • Connection Course: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/course/the-connection-course

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Lessons from scaling Uber and Opendoor | Brian Tolkin (Head of Product at Opendoor, ex-Uber)

    Lessons from scaling Uber and Opendoor | Brian Tolkin (Head of Product at Opendoor, ex-Uber)

    Brian Tolkin is the Head of Product at Opendoor. Previously, he was one of the early employees at Uber, where he was instrumental in launching and growing UberPool, UberHop, and UberExpress and started one of the first product operations teams in tech. In our conversation, we dive into:

    • How to enable product and ops to work well together

    • How to run great product reviews

    • How to make good decisions with limited data

    • How he uses the jobs-to-be-done framework at Opendoor

    • How to stay calm under pressure as a leader

    • Wild stories from his time at Uber

    • Challenges faced at Opendoor during the pandemic

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application

    Explo—Embed customer-facing analytics in your product

    Attio—The powerful, flexible CRM for fast-growing startups

    Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/scaling-uber-and-opendoor-brian-tolkin

    Where to find Brian Tolkin:

    • X: https://x.com/briantolkin

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/briantolkin/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Brian’s background

    (02:14) Career beginnings at Uber

    (02:49) Transitioning from product operations to product management

    (06:47) Product and operations synergy

    (10:00) Surge pricing at Uber

    (12:18) Scaling challenges, and stories

    (15:47) Opendoor and Covid adaptations

    (25:38) Product reviews and Jobs to Be Done

    (40:30) The challenges of A/B testing

    (42:23) Increasing conviction in solutions

    (44:33) Leveraging intuition in product decisions

    (47:07) Partnering with Zillow

    (52:55) Staying calm under pressure

    (56:25) Finding the “kernel of truth” in product management

    (01:00:21) Failure corner: Early days of Uber Pool

    (01:06:11) Lightning round and final thoughts

    Referenced:

    • Twitter’s former Head of Product opens up: being fired, meeting Elon, changing stagnant culture, building consumer product, more | Kayvon Beykpour: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/twitters-former-head-of-product-kayvon-beykpour

    • Opendoor: https://sell.opendoor.com/

    • How to sell your ideas and rise within your company | Casey Winters, Eventbrite: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-sell-your-ideas-and-rise-within

    • Thinking beyond frameworks | Casey Winters (Pinterest, Eventbrite, Airbnb, Tinder, Canva, Reddit, Grubhub): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/thinking-beyond-frameworks-casey

    • Zigging vs. zagging: How HubSpot built a $30B company | Dharmesh Shah (co-founder/CTO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-30-years-of-building

    • FlashTags: A Simple Hack for Conveying Context Without Confusion: https://www.onstartups.com/flashtags-a-simple-hack-for-conveying-context-without-confusion

    • Jobs to Be Done Theory: https://www.christenseninstitute.org/theory/jobs-to-be-done

    • The ultimate guide to JTBD | Bob Moesta (co-creator of the framework): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-jtbd-bob-moesta-co-creator-of-the-framework/

    • Zillow: https://www.zillow.com/

    • Zillow, Opendoor announce multi-year partnership: https://investor.opendoor.com/news-releases/news-release-details/zillow-opendoor-announce-multi-year-partnership

    • Building product at Stripe: craft, metrics, and customer obsession | Jeff Weinstein (Product lead): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-product-at-stripe-jeff-weinstein

    • Stripe Atlas: https://stripe.com/atlas

    Founders podcast: https://www.founderspodcast.com/

    • Uber will deliver ice cream to you today: https://www.dispatch.com/story/lifestyle/food/2016/07/13/uber-will-deliver-ice-cream/24201840007/

    • UberKittens: https://www.uber.com/newsroom/uberkittens/

    • UberPuppies: https://www.uber.com/blog/uberpuppies-want-to-play/

    Shoe Dog: A Memoir by the Creator of Nike: https://www.amazon.com/Shoe-Dog-Memoir-Creator-NIKE/dp/1471146723

    The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable: https://www.amazon.com/Black-Swan-Impact-Improbable-Incerto/dp/1400063515

    The Design of Everyday Things: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0465050654

    Shantaram: https://www.amazon.com/Shantaram-SHANTARAM-Paperback-GregoryDavidRoberts/dp/B00QPVJESC

    Full Swing on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81483353

    Formula 1: Drive to Survive on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80204890

    Break Point on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81569920

    Air on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/AIR-Matt-Damon/dp/B0B8Q3JMCG

    • Fi smart dog collar: https://tryfi.com/

    • Particle: https://particlenews.ai/

    • Sara Beykpour on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarabeykpour/

    • A new-parent gift guide for product managers: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-new-parent-gift-guide-for-product

    • Jeff Holden on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffholden/

    • Travis Kalanick on X: https://x.com/travisk

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    The ultimate guide to performance marketing | Timothy Davis (Shopify)

    The ultimate guide to performance marketing | Timothy Davis (Shopify)

    Timothy Davis has led performance marketing for all of Shopify for the past 2.5 years, and as a consultant has helped companies like Pinterest, LinkedIn, Redfin, and Eventbrite kickstart and scale their performance marketing teams. In every one of those cases, he got them so performant at paid growth that they significantly scale spend and investment in these channels. In our conversation, we cover:

    • When and how to start investing in performance marketing

    • Common mistakes companies make with paid ads

    • How to build and structure a performance marketing team

    • How to get your creatives performing better

    • Strategies for optimizing workflows and team efficiency

    • How AI will change performance marketing

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    BuildBetter—AI for product teams

    OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster

    Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments

    Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/performance-marketing-timothy-davis

    Where to find Timothy Davis:

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timothypatrickdavis/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Timothy’s background 

    (02:31) Understanding performance marketing 

    (06:31) The importance of paid search 

    (08:39) Identifying growth potential 

    (09:54) Case studies: Hairstory and Ipsy 

    (12:22) Experimenting with new platforms 

    (18:57) Choosing the right platforms 

    (20:23) LinkedIn for B2B marketing 

    (27:56) When to start investing in paid growth 

    (33:33) Common mistakes in performance marketing 

    (37:41) Working with agencies and consultants 

    (40:36) Hiring for performance marketing 

    (47:33) Metrics that matter 

    (54:43) Competitor analysis and CPC insights 

    (56:15) Custom reports and data visualization

    (56:38) Understanding impression and click share 

    (59:10) True competition metrics 

    (01:02:14) Attribution and incrementality 

    (01:08:52) Building a performance marketing team 

    (01:10:53) Creative and ad copy collaboration 

    (01:15:48) Managing workload and hiring strategy 

    (01:20:52) Training and onboarding new hires 

    (01:24:41) Impact of ATT on performance marketing 

    (01:25:56) The power of creative in ads 

    (01:29:47) Using AI in performance marketing 

    (01:37:16) Lightning round 

    Referenced:

    • Shopify: https://www.shopify.com/

    • What Is Performance Marketing?: https://www.shopify.com/blog/performance-marketing

    • Google AI: https://ai.google/

    • Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/

    • Eventbrite: https://www.eventbrite.com/

    • Booking.com: https://www.booking.com/

    • Credit Karma: https://www.creditkarma.com/

    • Hairstory: https://hairstory.com/

    • Google Display Network: https://www.semrush.com/blog/google-display-network/

    • SoftLayer Becomes Part of IBM’s SmartCloud: https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/deals/softlayer-becomes-part-of-ibm-s-smartcloud

    • Coca-Cola Freestyle: https://www.coca-colafreestyle.com/

    • Monday.com: https://monday.com/

    • How to sell your ideas and rise within your company | Casey Winters, Eventbrite: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-sell-your-ideas-and-rise-within

    • Thinking beyond frameworks | Casey Winters (Pinterest, Eventbrite, Airbnb, Tinder, Canva, Reddit, Grubhub): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/thinking-beyond-frameworks-casey

    The Signal and the Noise: Why So Many Predictions Fail—But Some Don’t: https://www.amazon.com/Signal-Noise-Many-Predictions-Fail-but/dp/0143125087

    • Courtney Wenneborg on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cwenneborg/

    • PPC Hero: https://www.ppchero.com/

    • Another Deep Dive into Auction Insights, by Jacob Brown: https://www.ppchero.com/another-deep-dive-into-auction-insights/

    •Multitouch: https://multitouch.app/

    • What is time decay attribution?: https://growthmethod.com/what-is-time-decay-attribution/

    • Linear: https://linear.app/

    • Consumer Heterogeneity and Paid Search Effectiveness: A Large-Scale Field Experiment: https://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/stadelis/BNT_ECMA_rev.pdf

    • ADT: https://www.adt.com/

    • Shopify Bursts: https://focus.business/blog/shopify-bursts/

    The First 90 Days: Proven Strategies for Getting Up to Speed Faster and Smarter: https://www.amazon.com/First-90-Days-Strategies-Expanded/dp/1422188612

    • Kat Nguyen on Shopify: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katngy/

    • Dollar Shave Club ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUG9qYTJMsI

    The Daily Stoic: 366 Meditations on Wisdom, Perseverance, and the Art of Living: https://www.amazon.com/Daily-Stoic-Meditations-Wisdom-Perseverance/dp/0735211736

    Great by Choice: Uncertainty, Chaos, and Luck—Why Some Thrive Despite Them All: https://www.amazon.com/Great-Choice-Uncertainty-Luck-Why-Despite/dp/0062120999

    X-Men ’97 on Disney+: https://www.disneyplus.com/series/x-men-97/vc1XIz90ZNH5

    RRR on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81476453

    The Playlist on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81186296

    Welcome to Wrexham on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/welcome-to-wrexham-c6906d50-d06c-40d1-a57c-1885d9dc2fef

    The Billion Dollar Code on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81074012

    • Magic Mind: https://magicmind.com/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    5 essential questions to craft a winning strategy | Roger Martin (author, advisor, speaker)

    5 essential questions to craft a winning strategy | Roger Martin (author, advisor, speaker)

    Roger Martin is one of the world’s leading experts on strategy and the author of Playing to Win, one of the most beloved books on strategy. He’s written extensively for the Harvard Business Review; consulted for dozens of Fortune 500 companies, including P&G, Lego, and Ford; and written 11 other books. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • The five key questions you need to answer to develop an effective strategy

    • Why most companies get strategy wrong

    • How to avoid “playing to play” instead of playing to win

    • Real-world strategy examples from Procter & Gamble, Southwest Airlines, Lego, and Figma

    • How to think about differentiation vs. low cost

    • Shortcomings of current strategy education

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Webflow—The web experience platform

    WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs

    Cycle—Your feedback hub, on autopilot

    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-strategy-roger-martin

    Where to find Roger Martin:

    • X: https://x.com/RogerLMartin

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/roger-martin-9916911a9/

    • Website: https://rogerlmartin.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Roger’s background

    (02:20) The importance of strategy

    (07:00) Challenges in developing strategy

    (08:30) Critique of modern strategy education

    (14:00) Hamilton Helmer and Richard Rumelt

    (17:40) Defining strategy

    (19:12) The Strategy Choice Cascade

    (23:20) Playing to win vs. playing to play

    (24:57) Examples of strategic success

    (30:49) Differentiation and moats

    (40:23) Applying strategy to real-world scenarios

    (43:47) Customer-centric strategy

    (44:45) Defining the market and product

    (45:59) Value chain and distribution

    (48:28) Cost leadership vs. differentiation

    (53:16) Capabilities and management systems

    (57:14) Competitive advantage and market positioning

    (01:02:41) Counterpositioning and fault lines

    (01:05:53) Adapting to AI and market changes

    (01:14:11) Betterment over perfection

    (01:18:42) Final thoughts on strategy

    Referenced:

    • Nearly 10% of S&P 500 CEOs are alumni of Procter & Gamble: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/02/06/10-of-s-p-500-ceos-pg.html

    • FigJam: https://www.figma.com/figjam/

    • Figma: https://www.figma.com/

    • What Is Resource-Based Theory?: https://www.igi-global.com/dictionary/the-impact-of-technological-governance-and-political-capabilities-on-firms-performances-under-economic-turbulence/67915

    • Michael Porter on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/professorporter/

    Competitive Strategy: Techniques for Analyzing Industries and Competitors: https://www.amazon.com/Competitive-Strategy-Techniques-Industries-Competitors/dp/0684841487

    • VRIO Framework Explained: https://strategicmanagementinsight.com/tools/vrio/

    • Business strategy with Hamilton Helmer (author of 7 Powers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/business-strategy-with-hamilton-helmer

    • Good Strategy, Bad Strategy | Richard Rumelt: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/good-strategy-bad-strategy-richard

    7 Powers: The Foundations of Business Strategy: https://www.amazon.com/7-Powers-Foundations-Business-Strategy/dp/0998116319

    • Boston Consulting Group: https://www.bcg.com/

    • Bruce Henderson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Henderson

    • Lego: https://www.lego.com

    • Vanguard: https://investor.vanguard.com/

    • Southwest Airlines: https://www.southwest.com/

    • How Amazon Managed to Dethrone Walmart: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/20/technology/how-amazon-beat-walmart.html

    • GM Lost a 10-Year Battle with Tesla, Pulling the Plug on a Long Line of EVs: https://www.forbes.com/sites/brookecrothers/2023/07/09/gm-killed-its-electric-cars-and-lost-a-10-year-battle-with-tesla/

    • Westlaw: https://www.westlawinternational.com/

    • What Is an Economic Moat? Why Warren Buffett Says It Matters for Investors: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/economic-moat-why-warren-buffett-160046125.html

    • Salomon Brothers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salomon_Brothers

    • US Airways: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways

    • Four Seasons: https://www.fourseasons.com/

    • Michael Dell on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mdell/

    • Bill Gates on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/williamhgates/

    • Mandarin Oriental: https://www.mandarinoriental.com/en/

    • Continental Lite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Lite

    • Ted (airline): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_(airline)

    • Case Study: Oil of Olay: https://www.studocu.com/es/document/universidad-de-murcia/estrategia-de-marketing/case-study-old-of-olay/95079369

    • AG Lafley on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ag-lafley-2381b3201/

    • Jack Bogle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Bogle

    • Seven Ways Windows 95 Changed the World: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ianmorris/2015/08/24/windows-95-changed-the-world/

    • Where to Start with Strategy? Focus on Betterment: https://rogermartin.medium.com/where-to-start-with-strategy-bae40506304c

    • Brick by brick: The man who rebuilt the house of Lego shares his leadership secrets: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2016/12/08/brick-by-brick-the-man-who-rebuilt-the-house-of-lego-shares-his-leadership-secrets/

    A New Way to Think: Your Guide to Superior Management Effectiveness: https://www.amazon.com/New-Way-Think-Management-Effectiveness/dp/164782351X/

    Playing to Win: How Strategy Really Works: https://www.amazon.com/Playing-Win-Strategy-Really-Works/dp/142218739X

    The Design of Business: Why Design Thinking Is the Next Competitive Advantage: https://www.amazon.com/Design-Business-Thinking-Competitive-Advantage/dp/1422177807

    The Opposable Mind: How Successful Leaders Win Through Integrative Thinking: https://www.amazon.com/Opposable-Mind-Successful-Integrative-Thinking/dp/1422118924

    When More Is Not Better: Overcoming America’s Obsession with Economic Efficiency: https://www.amazon.com/When-More-Not-Better-Overcoming/dp/1647820065

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    What most people miss about marketing | Rory Sutherland (Vice Chairman of Ogilvy UK, author)

    What most people miss about marketing | Rory Sutherland (Vice Chairman of Ogilvy UK, author)

    Rory Sutherland is widely regarded as one of the most influential (and most entertaining) thinkers in marketing and behavioral science. He’s the vice chairman of Ogilvy UK, the author of Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life, and the founder of Nudgestock, the world’s biggest festival of behavioral science and creativity. He champions thinking from first principles and using human psychology—what he calls “thinking psycho-logically”—over mere logic. In our conversation, we cover:

    • Why good products don’t always succeed, and bad ones don’t necessarily fail

    • Why less functionality can sometimes be more valuable

    • The importance of fame in building successful brands

    • The importance of timing in product success

    • The concept of “most advanced, yet acceptable”

    • Why metrics-driven workplaces can be demotivating

    • Lots of real-world case studies

    • Much more

    Note: We encountered some technical difficulties that led to less than ideal video quality for this episode, but the lessons from this conversation made it impossible for me to not publish it anyway. Thanks for your understanding and for bearing with the less-than-ideal video quality. 

    Brought to you by:

    Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application

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    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-most-people-miss-about-marketing

    Where to find Rory Sutherland:

    • X: https://x.com/rorysutherland

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rorysutherland

    • Book: Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life: https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Curious-Science-Creating-Business/dp/006238841X

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Rory’s background

    (02:37) The success and failure of products

    (04:08) Why the urge to appear serious can be a disaster in marketing

    (08:05) The role of distinctiveness in product design

    (12:29) The MAYA principle

    (15:50) How thinking irrationally can be advantageous

    (17:40) The fault of multiple-choice tests

    (21:31) Companies that have successfully implemented out-of-the-box thinking

    (30:31) “Psycho-logical” thinking

    (31:45) The hare and the dog metaphor

    (38:51) Marketing’s crucial role in product adoption

    (49:21) The quirks of Google Glass

    (55:44) Survivorship bias

    (56:09) Balancing rational ideas with irrational ideas

    (01:06:19) The rise and fall of tech innovations

    (01:09:54) Consistency, distinctiveness, and clarity

    (01:21:12) Considering psychological, technological, and economic factors in parallel

    (01:23:35) Where to find Rory

    Referenced:

    • Google Glass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Glass

    • Meta Portal TV: https://www.meta.com/portal/products/portal-tv/

    • Rory’s quote in a LinkedIn post: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/brad-jackson-04766642_the-urge-to-appear-serious-is-a-disaster-activity-7093497742710210560-1LYN/

    • The MAYA Principle: Design for the Future, but Balance It with Your Users’ Present: https://www.interaction-design.org/literature/article/design-for-the-future-but-balance-it-with-your-users-present

    • Ogilvy: https://www.ogilvy.com/

    • MCI: https://www.mci.world/

    • Veuve Clicquot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veuve_Clicquot

    • Why do the French call the British ‘the roast beefs’?: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/2913151.stm

    The Killing on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/the-killing-f5da5c2d-4626-4ba9-bcf3-ff5f891771fb

    • Original The Killing on BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017h7m1

    • The Mandarin Oriental, Hong Kong: https://www.mandarinoriental.com/en/hong-kong/victoria-harbour

    • SAT: https://satsuite.collegeboard.org/sat

    • The Widening Racial Scoring Gap on the SAT College Admissions Test: https://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html

    • What is the age of the captain?: https://www.icopilots.com/what-is-the-age-of-the-captain/

    • Octopus Energy: https://octopus.energy/

    • Kraken: https://octopusenergy.group/kraken-technologies

    • Toby Shannan: https://theorg.com/org/shopify/org-chart/toby-shannan

    • Dunbar’s number: Why we can only maintain 150 relationships: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191001-dunbars-number-why-we-can-only-maintain-150-relationships

    • AO: https://ao.com/

    • Zappos: https://www.zappos.com/

    • Joe Cano on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeycano/

    • John Ralston Saul’s website: https://www.johnralstonsaul.com/

    Voltaire’s Bastards: The Dictatorship of Reason in the West: https://www.amazon.com/Voltaires-Bastards-Dictatorship-Reason-West/dp/0679748199

    • Psycho-Logic: Why Too Much Logic Deters Magic: https://coffeeandjunk.com/psycho-logic/

    • Herbert Simon’s Decision-Making Approach: https://bura.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/4995/1/Fulltext.pdf

    • Robert Trivers’s website: https://roberttrivers.com/Welcome.html

    • Crazy Ivan: https://jollycontrarian.com/index.php?title=Crazy_Ivan

    • The Joys of Being a Late Tech Adopter: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/28/technology/personaltech/joys-late-tech-adopter.html

    • Jean-Claude Van Damme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Van_Damme

    • Tim Berners-Lee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee

    • Edward Jenner and the history of smallpox and vaccination: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200696/

    • The real story behind penicillin: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/the-real-story-behind-the-worlds-first-antibiotic

    • What Are Japanese Toilets?: https://www.bigbathroomshop.co.uk/info/blog/japanese-toilets/

    • reMarkable: https://remarkable.com/

    • Chumby: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumby

    • Survivorship bias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

    • Jony Ive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jony_Ive

    • Marc Newson’s website: https://marc-newson.com/

    • Designing Men: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2013/11/jony-ive-marc-newson-design-auction

    • Qantas A330: https://marc-newson.com/qantas-a330/

    • Herodotus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus

    • Big Decision? Consider It Both Drunk and Sober: https://www.forbes.com/sites/chunkamui/2016/03/22/wine-and-sleep-make-for-better-decisions/?sh=5c97fdc524b1

    • How Henry Ford and Thomas Edison killed the electric car: https://www.speakev.com/threads/how-henry-ford-and-thomas-edison-killed-the-electric-car.4270/

    • Watch Jay Leno get nostalgic and swoon over this 1909 EV: https://thenextweb.com/news/jay-leno-talk-about-electric-car-1909-baker

    Jay Leno’s Garage: https://www.youtube.com/@jaylenosgarage

    • Nudgestock: https://nudgestock.com/

    • Akio Morita: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akio_Morita

    • Don Norman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donnorman/

    • What Makes Tesla’s Business Model Different: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/active-trading/072115/what-makes-teslas-business-model-different.asp

    • Monica Lewinsky on X: https://x.com/MonicaLewinsky

    Blindsight: The (Mostly) Hidden Ways Marketing Reshapes Our Brains: azon.com/Blindsight-Mostly-Hidden-Marketing-Reshapes-ebook/dp/B07ZKZ5DWF

    Branding That Means Business: https://www.amazon.com/Branding-that-Means-Business-Economist-ebook/dp/B09QBCCH9N

    • PwC: https://www.pwc.com

    • Ryanair: https://www.ryanair.com

    • British Airways: https://www.britishairways.com/

    • Wrigley’s began as a soap business: know when to pivot: https://theamericangenius.com/entrepreneur/wrigleys-began-as-soap-know-when-to-pivot/

    Transport for Humans: https://www.amazon.com/Transport-Humans-Perspectives-Pete-Dyson/dp/1913019357

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

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