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    Can the West Stop Russia by Strangling its Economy?

    enMarch 01, 2022

    Podcast Summary

    • Financial war in Ukraine: Deciding the future of global economic orderThe Russia-Ukraine conflict has evolved into a financial war with significant global implications, potentially leading to a new economic order

      The ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine is not just a military battle, but also a financial war with significant global implications. When the US and Europe announced their intention to use financial sanctions against Russia if it invaded Ukraine, it was believed that globalization would restrain Russia from such an action due to economic interdependence. However, when Russia invaded, the West responded with economic sanctions, which have since escalated into a full-blown financial war. Russia, facing the possibility of economic collapse, has responded with threats of nuclear war. This war is not only deciding the future of Ukraine but also potentially the end of the current global economic order and the birth of a new one. Putin's 2007 statement that global growth might produce conflict and contradiction, rather than harmony and convergence, has taken on new significance in this context. The rapid escalation of events highlights the unpredictability and danger of this situation.

    • Globalization's Geopolitical Risks: The Case of RussiaGlobalization's economic benefits can mask geopolitical risks, as shown by Russia's assertion of power despite economic interdependence.

      The economic interconnectedness of nations through globalization, while bringing potential benefits such as economic growth and cheaper goods, also carries geopolitical risks. The case of Russia illustrates this, as its economic strength derived from the global demand for its raw materials allowed it to assert its red lines and challenge the post-1990s order. However, this romanticized vision of globalization, which assumes that economic growth leads to harmony and peaceful exchange, overlooks the potential for massive inequality and polarization within and between nations. Moreover, the idea that economic interests would prevent war is also challenged by real-world conflicts, such as the current tensions between Russia and the West. The history of Russia's post-Soviet economic transformation serves as a reminder of the limitations and challenges of the liberal vision of globalization.

    • Russia's Economic Transformation: From Risky Beginnings to State CapitalismRussia's economic transformation was marked by instability, corruption, and the rise of crony capitalism. Despite Western influence, Russia's internal dynamics largely determined its shift to state capitalism and export-driven economy.

      Russia's economic transformation from the late Soviet period to the present was a risky endeavor marked by political instability, hyperinflation, and corruption during privatization. The move towards a market economy led to a kleptocratic crony capitalist regime, which eventually gave way to a state capitalist regime under Putin. This transition involved the rebuilding of the Russian state apparatus, the consolidation of power, and the shift to an export-driven economy focused on commodities, energy, and agriculture. Russia's participation in the global economy, particularly through exports to Europe and China, played a crucial role in its recovery from economic disaster to disappointment. Despite the Western influence during this period, Russia's trajectory was largely determined by its own internal dynamics.

    • Russia's Foreign Exchange Reserve: A Source of Power and StabilityRussia's large foreign exchange reserve, accumulated through abstention from import spending and debt repayments, provides a cushion against external shocks and strengthens its economy against external pressures.

      Russia's large foreign exchange reserve is a significant aspect of its power and strategic maneuverability as a petro state. This reserve, accumulated through a systematic process of abstention from spending foreign currency on imports or debt repayments, provides Russia with a cushion against external shocks and economic instability. The reserve allows Russia to cover import bills, stabilize its currency, and help debtors survive devaluation. Additionally, since the Ukraine crisis in 2013-2014, Russia has been reducing private debts in foreign currency, further strengthening its economy against external pressures. This foreign exchange reserve, often described as the core of Putin's ability to invade Ukraine and survive international sanctions, is an unfamiliar concept for some. It represents the hoarding of foreign claims in public hands, which requires the state to commit to not spending the foreign currency. This deliberate accumulation of foreign exchange is essential for a country like Russia, which wants to be invulnerable against external shocks and maintain control over its economy.

    • Russia's use of globalization to fortify economy against sanctionsRussia has built up financial reserves and reduced private sector vulnerability to Western leverage, making its economy less susceptible to sanctions while still participating in global economy.

      Russia has strategically used the tools of globalization to fortify its economy against potential sanctions and economic retaliation. By building up vast financial reserves and reducing the vulnerability of its private sector to Western leverage, Russia has effectively hardened its economy against the "sticks" of globalization, while continuing to participate in the global economy and reaping its benefits. This approach, known as "weaponized interdependence," is a response to Russia's historical vulnerabilities and a recognition of the interconnected nature of economic and political power. It's important to understand this context when evaluating Russia's actions and the role of sanctions as a tool of international relations.

    • Economic sanctions: A tool of power short of traditional warfareEconomic sanctions function as a deterrent against small actors or a form of siege, targeting specific parts of a regime while exempting essential sectors, and involve consultation with allies.

      Economic sanctions, along with other coercive measures like blockades and strategic bombing, represent a spectrum of power exertion that falls short of traditional warfare. Sanctions, which have their modern origins in the League of Nations and the use of economic pressure against Germany during World War 1, can function as a deterrent against small actors or as a form of siege, punishing and hoping to change the behavior of the targeted regime. The recent US sanctions against Russia, as discussed regarding the Biden administration, are carefully calibrated to target specific parts of Putin's regime, such as financial institutions and political elites, while exempting the energy sector due to concerns about European and American consumers. The sanctions are not a unilateral US effort but involve consultation with European allies. The debate within the Biden administration about the effectiveness of these sanctions as a deterrent remains ongoing, but the primary motivation appears to be the desire to bring about change rather than prevention.

    • Europe's integration with Russia: Complexities and ChallengesEurope's dependence on Russia for energy and global market centrality makes effective sanctions challenging, creating leverage for bad actors.

      Europe's integration with Russia, instead of promoting harmony, can create leverage for bad actors. The current situation involves three separate issues: the legality of transactions with Russian actors, sanctions, and the role of SWIFT, a secure digital communication system for banks. While correspondence banking sanctions can be effective, the energy dependence of European countries, particularly Germany, makes complete sanctioning a daunting prospect. Russia's centrality to the global market, especially in the tight oil and gas markets, makes it difficult to replace their exports. Moreover, agricultural commodities, which Russia and Ukraine supply 23% of globally, are exempted from the sanctions. China's potential role as a subtext is also significant, as Russia's size and importance to the global market make it challenging to sanction effectively. The situation highlights the complexities of international relations and the challenges of enforcing global norms when dealing with powerful actors.

    • Ukraine Conflict Disrupts Global Food Supplies, Particularly for Wheat-Dependent CountriesThe ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine could severely impact global food supplies, especially for countries heavily reliant on Ukrainian wheat exports. Disruptions to these exports could lead to food shortages and price increases, particularly for low-income countries.

      The ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine has significant implications for global food supplies, particularly for countries heavily dependent on Ukrainian wheat exports. The panic buying observed in the Middle East, where countries like Lebanon, Libya, Yemen, Bangladesh import a large percentage of their wheat from Ukraine, highlights the sensitivity of these countries to disruptions in agricultural goods. While the US and European sanctions on Russian oil and gas do not apply to agricultural goods, the potential disruption to Ukrainian wheat production could lead to severe consequences for food supplies and prices, particularly for low-income countries. The strategic economic logic of Russia's actions, which have been criticized as a moral failure or an insane calculation, have already led to a hardening of the Russian regime and a shift towards nationalism and appeals to history. The long-term consequences of this choice, particularly in the context of rising global food prices and the dependence of European countries on Russian gas, remain to be seen.

    • China and Russia's Pragmatic Alignment Amidst Geopolitical TensionsDespite watching European and American responses closely, China's support for Russia remains strong due to shared perspectives on the illegitimacy of the international order. This could lead to increased militarization in Asia and further economic bloc division.

      The current geopolitical situation, specifically Russia's actions towards Ukraine, highlights the conditional and pragmatic alignment between China and Russia. This alignment is rooted in their shared perspective that the existing international order is illegitimate and inconsistent. China, as Russia's major trading partner, is a crucial supporter, but their stance towards Russia's actions may not change significantly, even if they are watching the European and American responses closely. This situation could potentially lead to a more militarized response from countries like Japan and Taiwan, as they assess their own defense capabilities. Furthermore, the economic world order may continue to divide into economic blocs, with Russia leaning more towards China for trade and financial links. These are potential long-term implications of the current geopolitical situation.

    • Global economy shifting towards self-sufficiencyThe invasion of Ukraine could accelerate the trend towards self-sufficiency in supply chains and trade relationships, leading to a more fragmented global economy with less alignment between economic and geopolitical blocs, and significant implications for industries like energy.

      The invasion of Ukraine could lead to a shift towards self-sufficiency in supply chains and trade relationships, as countries reconsider their dependence on geopolitical allies. This trend, which was already emerging due to the economic disruptions caused by COVID-19, could lead to a more fragmented global economy with less alignment between economic and geopolitical blocs. China, as the main driver of economic growth in the last two decades, is likely to continue leading this trend towards self-sufficiency. The US, which has been hamstrung in trade policy due to domestic politics, may find it difficult to maintain its position in a lopsided world economy. This shift could have significant implications for industries such as energy, where the West's relationship with major suppliers will once again be put in question. The term "supply chain" encompasses a wide range of goods and services, from face masks to microchips, and energy is one of the most existentially significant. The economic logic of globalization and the national interest logic of self-sufficiency may diverge, leading to a period of tension and adjustment.

    • Global economic focus on industrial policies and national securityEconomic shift towards industrial policies and national security has major implications for international relations and cooperation, particularly on climate change and decarbonization, with unprecedented spending and a reevaluation of trade and cooperation norms.

      The global economic landscape is shifting towards a renewed focus on industrial policies and national security, particularly in the realm of microchip production. This trend, which began under Obama and gained momentum during the Trump administration, has significant implications for international relations and cooperation, particularly in areas like climate change and decarbonization. The intertwining of economic and geopolitical considerations has led to unprecedented levels of spending and a reevaluation of traditional assumptions about trade and cooperation. The potential consequences of this trend are far-reaching, including the possibility of decreased cooperation on climate change as great power conflicts intensify. It's important to note that this shift is not limited to the US and China, but is also being seen in Europe, where traditional neoliberal economic policies are being challenged in favor of industrial policies. Overall, this trend represents a significant departure from past economic and geopolitical norms and will have profound implications for the future.

    • Climate crisis and geopolitical tensions are interconnected issuesAddressing the climate crisis requires considering its intersection with other global issues, including energy prices and geopolitical instability, and the importance of international cooperation

      The climate crisis and geopolitical tensions, such as the ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine, are interconnected issues that cannot be viewed in isolation. The climate crisis requires urgent action, but other pressing matters, like energy prices and geopolitical instability, can make it difficult to maintain focus. The recent conflict has led to unprecedented financial sanctions against Russia, which in turn has caused a financial crisis in Russia and brought us closer to economic and financial warfare. These events highlight the complexities of addressing the climate crisis and the need to consider its intersection with other global issues. The politics of climate can no longer be thought of as a single issue and must be articulated with everything else if they're to gain momentum. Despite the challenges, there's an opportunity to go big on renewables and flexible reserve capacity. The ongoing conflict also serves as a reminder of the importance of international cooperation and adherence to international law.

    • Russia's Central Bank Sanctions: A Game-Changer in the Economic SituationRussia's central bank sanctions make its foreign exchange reserves inaccessible, limiting defensive financial measures and causing immediate consequences like currency instability and drafting of foreign exchange reserves from businesses.

      The sanctioning of Russia's central bank represents a significant shift in the economic situation Russia is facing. By declaring the central bank ineligible for transactions, other parties in the international system effectively render Russia's foreign exchange reserves inaccessible. This is a game-changer because these reserves are typically seen as a source of stability, especially during financial crises. However, in an all-out war situation, Russia's central bank reserves become forfeit if they remain within the control of the country. The sanctions expose the limitations of Russia's defensive financial measures and place the country in a similar position as Iran or Afghanistan. The immediate consequences include Russia's inability to stabilize its currency and the drafting of foreign exchange reserves from Russian businesses. The sanctions are a potent weapon that was not discussed or considered as a deterrent before the invasion, and their sudden implementation represents a significant escalation in the conflict.

    • Europe shifts from economic war to military aid in Ukraine conflictEurope is providing military aid to Ukraine for the first time, marking a significant change in defense policies as the EU transitions from treating the conflict as an economic war to a new paradigm for self-defense in shooting wars.

      The ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine has led to a significant shift in European defense policies. The EU and Germany have announced substantial military aid to Ukraine and increased military expenditures, marking a departure from the previous economic war approach. This is a historic moment as the EU is providing direct military aid to a country under attack for the first time, and Germany's proposed military investment is almost twice its entire defense budget last year. These moves are being seen as a watershed moment in Europe's defense posture, as the EU transitions from treating the conflict as an economic war to a new paradigm for self-defense in shooting wars. The 500 million euros in direct military aid from the EU and Sweden's delivery of lethal weapons to Ukraine are significant taboo breaks. While these developments are dramatic and a cause for celebration for EU supporters, the shift from a perceived swift and annihilatory invasion to a prolonged conflict raises alarming questions about the future of Ukrainian sovereignty and the EU's response. Ultimately, the conflict has forced Europe to reconsider its defense capabilities and priorities.

    • Unexpected resistance from Ukraine and European public opinionUkraine's unexpectedly fierce resistance, led by President Zelensky, and the passionate response from European public opinion have changed the underlying structure of the conflict, adding new dimensions and challenging Russia's control over Eastern Europe and its model.

      The ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine has taken an unexpected turn with Ukraine's unexpectedly fierce resistance, led by President Zelensky, and the passionate response from European public opinion. This dynamic interplay between military action, diplomacy, and popular passion has changed the underlying structure of the conflict in real time, with unpredictable consequences and potential for disaster. Zelensky's effective use of social media and his call for EU membership have added a new dimension to the conflict, challenging Russia's control over Eastern Europe and its model. This unexpected mobilization of values and passion in the EU, which was not predicted, has changed the calculations around sanctions and the conflict's outcome. Zelensky's actions reflect his understanding of the potential of economic interdependence and growth to create leverage for conflict, but also the value of international cooperation and the promise of the international order to support democratic countries.

    • Ukraine's resistance shifts European leaders' stanceUkraine's resistance against Russian invasion challenges EU's stance on rule of law and potential accession, transforming from punishing Russia to dealing with strong Ukrainian sovereignty. Russia-China alliance may be reconsidered due to Ukraine crisis, raising questions about their relationship.

      The Ukrainian resistance against Russian invasion has significantly shifted the geopolitical landscape, particularly for European leaders. Ukraine's demonstration of resilience and unwillingness to be subordinated by force has challenged the European Union's stance on rule of law and potential accession. This situation has transformed from an expected ex post problem of punishing Russia to a problem of dealing with a strong Ukrainian sovereignty. The alignment of Russia and China against the unipolar American order is not new but the current situation may force both countries to reconsider their alliance. The Ukrainian crisis has also raised questions about the nature of the Russian-Chinese relationship, with Russia potentially becoming a difficult and dangerous ally for China. The EU's response to Ukraine's actions will be crucial in determining the future course of events.

    • Russia-Ukraine conflict and its impact on Russian citizensThe war and sanctions pose a serious risk of major economic and social fallout for Russian citizens due to government control over media, rising interest rates, and economic instability. The unpredictability of Russia's response adds to the uncertainty.

      The ongoing war between Russia and Ukraine, and the subsequent sanctions imposed by the international community, have created a highly unpredictable situation with far-reaching consequences for ordinary Russian citizens. The Russian people are not experiencing the war in the same way as the rest of the world due to government control over media. The recently imposed sanctions, coupled with rising interest rates and economic instability, pose a serious risk of major economic and social fallout. The unpredictability of the situation is heightened by the fact that Russia's response to these challenges is unknown. The history of sanctions, as detailed in Nick Mulder's book "The Economic Weapon," provides valuable context for understanding the potential consequences. Additionally, "The End of the End of History, Politics in the 21st Century" by Alex Hockley, George Hoare, and Philip Cumbliff offers insight into the political dynamics at play. Lastly, "The Future of Money: The Digital Transformation of Currency" by Eswar Prasad provides a helpful guide to understanding the technical aspects of the crypto craze and its implications.

    • The Ezra Klein Show team values each message and reads them thoroughlyThe Ezra Klein Show team at New York Times Opinion is dedicated to engaging with listeners and values each message, reflecting their mission to provide thoughtful discussions on important issues

      Despite not being able to respond to every message, the team behind The Ezra Klein Show at New York Times Opinion values each one and reads them thoroughly. This dedication to engagement is reflected in the production team, which includes Roger Karma, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld, Michelle Harris, Isaac Jones, and Jeff Geld, as well as executive producer Irene Noguchi. Special thanks were also given to Shannon Busta, Kristen Lynn, and Christina Samuilewski. This commitment to listening to and considering all voices is a testament to the show's mission to provide thoughtful and insightful discussions on important issues.

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    Your Mind Is Being Fracked

    The steady dings of notifications. The 40 tabs that greet you when you open your computer in the morning. The hundreds of unread emails, most of them spam, with subject lines pleading or screaming for you to click. Our attention is under assault these days, and most of us are familiar with the feeling that gives us — fractured, irritated, overwhelmed.

    D. Graham Burnett calls the attention economy an example of “human fracking”: With our attention in shorter and shorter supply, companies are going to even greater lengths to extract this precious resource from us. And he argues that it’s now reached a point that calls for a kind of revolution. “This is creating conditions that are at odds with human flourishing. We know this,” he tells me. “And we need to mount new forms of resistance.”

    Burnett is a professor of the history of science at Princeton University and is working on a book about the laboratory study of attention. He’s also a co-founder of the Strother School of Radical Attention, which is a kind of grass roots, artistic effort to create a curriculum for studying attention.

    In this conversation, we talk about how the 20th-century study of attention laid the groundwork for today’s attention economy, the connection between changing ideas of attention and changing ideas of the self, how we even define attention (this episode is worth listening to for Burnett’s collection of beautiful metaphors alone), whether the concern over our shrinking attention spans is simply a moral panic, what it means to teach attention and more.

    Mentioned:

    Friends of Attention

    The Battle for Attention” by Nathan Heller

    Powerful Forces Are Fracking Our Attention. We Can Fight Back.” by D. Graham Burnett, Alyssa Loh and Peter Schmidt

    Scenes of Attention edited by D. Graham Burnett and Justin E. H. Smith

    Book Recommendations:

    Addiction by Design by Natasha Dow Schüll

    Objectivity by Lorraine Daston and Peter L. Galison

    The Confidence-Man by Herman Melville

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Elias Isquith. Original music by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 31, 2024

    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    A.I.-generated art has flooded the internet, and a lot of it is derivative, even boring or offensive. But what could it look like for artists to collaborate with A.I. systems in making art that is actually generative, challenging, transcendent?

    Holly Herndon offered one answer with her 2019 album “PROTO.” Along with Mathew Dryhurst and the programmer Jules LaPlace, she built an A.I. called “Spawn” trained on human voices that adds an uncanny yet oddly personal layer to the music. Beyond her music and visual art, Herndon is trying to solve a problem that many creative people are encountering as A.I. becomes more prominent: How do you encourage experimentation without stealing others’ work to train A.I. models? Along with Dryhurst, Jordan Meyer and Patrick Hoepner, she co-founded Spawning, a company figuring out how to allow artists — and all of us creating content on the internet — to “consent” to our work being used as training data.

    In this conversation, we discuss how Herndon collaborated with a human chorus and her “A.I. baby,” Spawn, on “PROTO”; how A.I. voice imitators grew out of electronic music and other musical genres; why Herndon prefers the term “collective intelligence” to “artificial intelligence”; why an “opt-in” model could help us retain more control of our work as A.I. trawls the internet for data; and much more.

    Mentioned:

    Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt” by Holly Herndon

    xhairymutantx” by Holly Herndon and Mat Dryhurst, for the Whitney Museum of Art

    Fade” by Holly Herndon

    Swim” by Holly Herndon

    Jolene” by Holly Herndon and Holly+

    Movement” by Holly Herndon

    Chorus” by Holly Herndon

    Godmother” by Holly Herndon

    The Precision of Infinity” by Jlin and Philip Glass

    Holly+

    Book Recommendations:

    Intelligence and Spirit by Reza Negarestani

    Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky

    Plurality by E. Glen Weyl, Audrey Tang and ⿻ Community

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Jack Hamilton.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 24, 2024

    A Conservative Futurist and a Supply-Side Liberal Walk Into a Podcast …

    A Conservative Futurist and a Supply-Side Liberal Walk Into a Podcast …

    “The Jetsons” premiered in 1962. And based on the internal math of the show, George Jetson, the dad, was born in 2022. He’d be a toddler right now. And we are so far away from the world that show imagined. There were a lot of future-trippers in the 1960s, and most of them would be pretty disappointed by how that future turned out.

    So what happened? Why didn’t we build that future?

    The answer, I think, lies in the 1970s. I’ve been spending a lot of time studying that decade in my work, trying to understand why America is so bad at building today. And James Pethokoukis has also spent a lot of time looking at the 1970s, in his work trying to understand why America is less innovative today than it was in the postwar decades. So Pethokoukis and I are asking similar questions, and circling the same time period, but from very different ideological vantages.

    Pethokoukis is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, and author of the book “The Conservative Futurist: How to Create the Sci-Fi World We Were Promised.” He also writes a newsletter called Faster, Please! “The two screamingly obvious things that we stopped doing is we stopped spending on science, research and development the way we did in the 1960s,” he tells me, “and we began to regulate our economy as if regulation would have no impact on innovation.”

    In this conversation, we debate why the ’70s were such an inflection point; whether this slowdown phenomenon is just something that happens as countries get wealthier; and what the government’s role should be in supporting and regulating emerging technologies like A.I.

    Mentioned:

    U.S. Infrastructure: 1929-2017” by Ray C. Fair

    Book Recommendations

    Why Information Grows by Cesar Hidalgo

    The Expanse series by James S.A. Corey

    The American Dream Is Not Dead by Michael R. Strain

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 21, 2024

    The Disastrous Relationship Between Israel, Palestinians and the U.N.

    The Disastrous Relationship Between Israel, Palestinians and the U.N.

    The international legal system was created to prevent the atrocities of World War II from happening again. The United Nations partitioned historic Palestine to create the states of Israel and Palestine, but also left Palestinians with decades of false promises. The war in Gaza — and countless other conflicts, including those in Syria, Yemen and Ethiopia — shows how little power the U.N. and international law have to protect civilians in wartime. So what is international law actually for?

    Aslı Ü. Bâli is a professor at Yale Law School who specializes in international and comparative law. “The fact that people break the law and sometimes get away with it doesn’t mean the law doesn’t exist and doesn’t have force,” she argues.

    In this conversation, Bâli traces the gap between how international law is written on paper and the realpolitik of how countries decide to follow it, the U.N.’s unique role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from its very beginning, how the laws of war have failed Gazans but may be starting to change the conflict’s course, and more.

    Mentioned:

    With Schools in Ruins, Education in Gaza Will Be Hobbled for Years” by Liam Stack and Bilal Shbair

    Book Recommendations:

    Imperialism, Sovereignty and the Making of International Law by Antony Anghie

    Justice for Some by Noura Erakat

    Worldmaking After Empire by Adom Getachew

    The Constitutional Bind by Aziz Rana

    The United Nations and the Question of Palestine by Ardi Imseis

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Carole Sabouraud.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 17, 2024

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