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    How to ask the right questions, project confidence, and win over skeptics | Paige Costello (Asana, Intercom, Intuit)

    enJuly 09, 2023
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    Podcast Summary

    • Building trust and mindset shift for young product managersUnderstanding customers, competitors, and numbers while adopting a mindset shift from scarcity thinking to exploring alternative options is crucial for young product managers to gain trust and succeed.

      Building trust and winning over skeptics as a young person in a room is possible by bringing insight and knowledge. Paige emphasizes the importance of understanding the customer, market, competitors, numbers, and product. She also highlights the mindset shift needed for new product managers, moving from scarcity thinking to exploring alternative options and different paths. By challenging oneself to consider "How might the opposite be true?", one can feel more relaxed and open to multiple possibilities. The conversation also provides insights into Paige's role at Asana as a product lead and the focus on creating clarity for individuals, teams, and organizations. Additionally, it touches upon the evolution of Asana's product development process and the changes in strategy and planning over the years.

    • Asana's Revised Planning Process: Introducing "Area Perspective" and Shifting to Six-Month Planning Cycles.Asana's updated planning process focuses on accountability, adaptability, and shorter planning cycles, allowing for better alignment and increased confidence in the immediate future.

      Asana has made significant changes to their planning process, particularly in terms of altitudes and time horizons. They have introduced an intermediary layer called "area perspective" to create more agency and accountability for teams focused on specific target customers and problems. This nested structure includes pillars, areas, and working teams, each with their own metrics and goals. They have shifted from planning annually to planning every six months for a rolling 12 month period. This allows for greater confidence in the immediate future and better alignment between go-to-market and product planning. The frequent reflection and ability to pivot quickly reduces churn and thrash, making the best use of the teams. Quarterly plans and sprints are not heavily emphasized, as teams prioritize success and iterative, prototyping-based approaches over strict timelines. Overall, Asana acknowledges the need for flexibility and adaptation in their planning process.

    • Asana's strategic approach to team improvement and customer-focused decision-making.Asana emphasizes team-focused improvement and customer value through metrics and a data-driven decision-making process.

      Asana has a detailed six-month plan for each team, ensuring that they focus on specific areas of improvement and set metrics to measure success. One example of an area is the Coordinate team, responsible for making sure that the collaboration features in Asana function effectively. The metrics they care about include weekly active users and healthy project use, indicating that the company prioritizes providing real value to its users. Additionally, the conversation reveals that Asana follows a process called the Double Diamond Process, which involves going broad and then narrowing down to define problems and solutions. This process helps the company make data-driven and customer-targeted decisions, ensuring that their product thinking is effective and focused on solving customer problems.

    • Asana's Phased Approach to Product Development and Hybrid Work Model for Collaboration and FlexibilityAsana's phased approach to product development and hybrid work model prioritize collaboration, flexibility, and maintaining mental health, resulting in increased productivity and positive team dynamics.

      Asana follows a phased approach to product development, starting with a kickoff and direction selection, followed by going broad on different concepts, design concept review, product specs, and a full experience review before launch. The reviews and discussions happen both in person and asynchronously, depending on the complexity and ambiguity of the solution. In terms of work-from-home policy, Asana adopted an office-centric hybrid format, where employees work in the office on specific days and work from home on others. This approach allows for collaboration and quick decision-making while providing flexibility and maintaining mental health by fostering social relationships and casual discussions. Overall, creating a balance between in-person and remote work has proved beneficial for productivity and team dynamics at Asana.

    • Maximizing Productivity and Building Trust in Remote Work EnvironmentsUnderstanding your productivity patterns, identifying your chronotype, and gaining expertise in your field are essential for success in remote work. Building trust through authenticity and customer focus is equally important.

      Understanding your own productivity patterns and leveraging them effectively can have a significant impact on your work. Remote working days can be more impactful for deep work compared to days spent in the office. Identifying your chronotype, whether you are a morning person or not, can help in scheduling important tasks during the time of day when you have the most headspace. Additionally, building trust and winning over skeptics can be accomplished by bringing valuable insights and knowledge to the table. By being the person in the room who understands customers, the market, competitors, and product intricacies, you can establish credibility and create curiosity among others. Doing the work, spending time with customers, and developing authenticity are crucial factors in winning trust.

    • Fostering Trust and Effective Communication through Vulnerability and EngagementBuilding trust and effective communication requires vulnerability, active engagement, and empathy. By understanding customers' needs and behaviors, asking questions, and actively participating, trust and collaboration can be fostered.

      Building trust and effective communication require vulnerability and active engagement. It's important to understand the needs and behaviors of customers, rather than assuming that one's own perspective is representative of the entire customer base. By asking questions and listening to insights, the nature of conversations can be changed, fostering trust and collaboration. Confidence is not about being assertive all the time, but about being willing to ask questions and admit when one doesn't know something. Real confidence is conveyed through open communication, body language, and actively participating in meetings. Leading and teaching by example, through repetition and experience, can be more successful in mentoring and coaching others compared to simply giving instructions. By embodying the desired behaviors, others are more likely to remember and internalize them.

    • The importance of being a learner in various contexts and its impact on personal growth and development.Constantly seeking opportunities to expand knowledge and skills, embracing open conversation and debate, and considering the bigger picture are vital for personal and leadership growth.

      Being a learner in various contexts, such as education, experience, and exposure, can greatly contribute to personal growth and development. Paige Costello emphasizes the importance of being present and analytical, as well as actively seeking opportunities to expand knowledge and skills. She exemplifies this by running meetings in a way that encourages open conversation and debate, while prioritizing the experience of everyone involved. Additionally, she shares an insightful piece of advice she received during a high-stakes product review, which highlights the importance of answering the underlying questions and considering the bigger picture. Paige also offers advice to others, including not self-selecting based on perceived limitations and encouraging a balanced approach of thinking big and shipping small. Ultimately, a combination of experience, exposure, and education can lead to conscious and effective leadership.

    • The Impact of Mindset on Decision-Making and Embracing Technological TransformationsBeing aware of our mindset and embracing technological transformations are crucial for effective decision-making and staying competitive in today's rapidly evolving world.

      It is important to be aware of our mindset and how it impacts our decision-making process. The concept of being "above the line" or "below the line" highlights the difference between being open to learning and being focused on winning or being right. Understanding our personal head space and being mindful of how we operate in that space can greatly influence our interactions and decision-making. Additionally, challenging ourselves with the question "How might the opposite be true?" can help us break free from a scarcity mindset and explore alternative options. This conversation also emphasizes the significance of embracing technological transformations, such as AI, and allocating resources for exploration and prototyping to stay on the cutting edge and effectively serve customers.

    • The Importance of Prototyping, Customer Centricity, and Communication in Product DevelopmentBy prioritizing prototyping, customer centricity, and effective communication, product development teams can create better products, address customer problems, and drive impactful growth and success.

      A key factor in successful product development is the ability to quickly prototype and test ideas. By bypassing lengthy planning processes and going straight to prototyping, teams can gain valuable insights and discover opportunities that they may have overlooked otherwise. This approach allows for faster iteration and validation of ideas, leading to the creation of better products. Additionally, it's crucial to prioritize customer centricity and gather insights by observing and understanding how customers interact with a product. By embracing customer feedback and basing decisions on their needs and pain points, teams can create products that truly address customer problems and deliver value. Effective communication and feedback delivery are also essential skills for managers to foster growth and success within their teams. Soft skills like giving feedback and effective communication are just as important, if not more, than technical skills in driving impactful product development.

    • Embracing curiosity and openness: the key to success for new product managersNew product managers should focus on asking questions, seeking feedback, and solving problems instead of trying to be the expert in the room. By staying present, having fun, and learning from mistakes, they can naturally advance in their career.

      New product managers often feel the pressure to be all-knowing and confident, leading to a mindset of advocacy rather than inquiry. This mindset can hinder collaboration and inhibit growth. It is important for new PMs to embrace curiosity and openness, allowing for a more successful experience. Instead of trying to be the expert in the room, they should focus on asking clarifying questions and seeking feedback. Additionally, PMs should not let ambition consume them, but rather find enjoyment in their job and focus on solving problems. By staying present, having fun, and producing positive outcomes, opportunities for promotion and advancement will naturally arise. Mistakes will be made along the way, but taking ownership and learning from them is crucial. One common misstep is striking a balance between giving guidance and micromanaging. Developing techniques to manage this, such as writing down thoughts before meetings and allowing others to speak first, can be beneficial.

    • The Importance of Authenticity and Transparency in LeadershipEffective leaders are authentic and transparent, openly discussing challenges and vulnerabilities. They focus on skills and experiences rather than specific roles or companies, fostering a positive environment and being passionate about problem-solving.

      Effective leadership requires being authentic and transparent, even when delivering bad news or addressing problems. Paige Costello shares her experience of being perceived as inauthentic because she focused on highlighting the positive aspects and didn't openly address the challenges. She emphasizes the importance of being "real" with oneself and others, showing vulnerabilities, and openly discussing the incomplete or imperfect aspects of a project. Additionally, when planning one's career path, Paige advises focusing on skills and experiences rather than specific roles or companies. She highlights the significance of a steep learning curve, a positive environment that fosters growth and support, and being passionate about the problem being solved. Being intentional and present in the current career journey is essential, rather than solely looking towards the future.

    • Streamlining the Review and Approval Process: Creating Agency and Pace in Product DevelopmentBy establishing clear ownership and accountability, teams can improve efficiency, connectivity, and ultimately, the execution of product development tasks.

      Being intentional and proactive about structuring the product development process can have a significant impact on a team's ability to execute. Paige Costello shares how her team implemented changes to streamline the review and approval process, clearly defining roles and responsibilities. By setting limits on the number of reviewers and approvals, they created more agency and pace within the working teams. This approach reduced the need for excessive reviews and daisy chains of approvals, allowing for faster decision-making and progress. The key lesson here is that establishing clear ownership and accountability can improve efficiency and enable better connectivity within the team, leading to more effective execution of product development tasks.

    • Maximizing Meeting Efficiency and Collaboration with AsanaConduct a maximum of three reviews, prioritize decision notes, assign pre-read tasks, and utilize Asana's features to improve teamwork and productivity. Consider the potential of AI to enhance efficiency and alignment.

      A maximum of three reviews should be conducted on a piece of work where only one person is blocking its progress. Meetings with more than 10 people should prioritize decision notes and remove unnecessary participants. Asana can be effectively used to manage meetings and assign pre-read tasks using the multi-assign feature in subtasks. Live note-taking in a task allows for the easy conversion of important points into subtasks, ensuring that action items are not overlooked. Asana's features can be utilized to build and run teams efficiently. AI has the potential to shape the future of software for knowledge workers, and feedback on how AI can enhance efficiency and alignment in Asana would be valuable.

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    Airbnb’s Vlad Loktev on embracing chaos, inquiry over advocacy, poking the bear, and “impact, impact, impact” (Partner at Index Ventures, Airbnb GM/VP Product)

    Vlad Loktev spent 10 years at Airbnb, where he started as an IC PM and quickly advanced to lead the core Airbnb marketplace business and then GM the entire homes business, managing over 1,000 people and reporting directly to CEO Brian Chesky. He recently left Airbnb and joined Index Ventures as their newest partner. Vlad was my manager at Airbnb for many years, and is the person I credit most for teaching me how to be a great product manager. Prior to Airbnb, Vlad spent a year at Zynga, where he helped grow Words with Friends to over 14 million daily active users. In our conversation, Vlad shares:

    • Insight into Brian Chesky’s leadership style

    • Why success as a PM is all about impact, impact, impact

    • Why chaos can be good

    • Why as a leader it’s OK to let some fires burn

    • Why you should learn to “poke the bear”

    • Balancing product release speed with quality

    • Lessons on prioritization, decision-making, and organizational design

    • Advice for founders on building company culture

    • Much more

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    Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application

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    Where to find Vlad Loktev:

    • X: https://x.com/vladimirloktev

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vladimirloktev/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Vlad’s background

    (02:54) Reflecting on transformative years at Airbnb

    (04:28) Skills and mindsets for success

    (11:03) Impact-driven mindset

    (13:16) Saying no and inquiry before advocacy 

    (17:54) “Poking the bear”

    (22:46) Psychological tools for leadership

    (30:08) Building and scaling teams

    (36:12) Letting fires burn

    (47:34) Embracing chaos

    (54:40) The unsell email strategy

    (01:02:01) Finding your place in an organization

    (01:05:38) The importance of company culture

    (01:13:16) Airbnb’s unique approach to product management

    (01:26:41) Failure corner

    (01:31:32) Lightning round and final thoughts

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    How to consistently go viral: Nikita Bier’s playbook for winning at consumer apps (co-founder of TBH, Gas, advisor, investor)

    How to consistently go viral: Nikita Bier’s playbook for winning at consumer apps (co-founder of TBH, Gas, advisor, investor)

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    • The inside story of how TBH and Gas achieved explosive growth

    • Strategies for building viral consumer apps

    • Why teens are such a great audience

    • Fighting the human trafficking hoax at Gas

    • The challenge of creating durable social products

    • His experience working as a PM at Facebook

    • Advice for founders on building consumer apps

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Webflow—The web experience platform

    Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security

    Explo—Embed customer-facing analytics in your product

    Book Nikita for 1:1 consultation/mentoring: https://intro.co/NikitaBier

    Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-consistently-go-viral-nikita-bier

    Where to find Nikita Bier:

    • X: https://x.com/nikitabier 

    • Threads: https://www.threads.net/@nikitabier

    • Website: https://intro.co/NikitaBier

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Nikita’s background 

    (06:08) Nikita’s early ventures: Politify and Outline

    (08:42) Transition to consumer apps

    (13:45) The birth of TBH

    (16:43) Building for teens vs. adults

    (20:00) TBH’s viral success

    (32:18) Leveraging live chat

    (34:08) Lasting lessons from TBH

    (37:00) Selling TBH to Facebook

    (42:19) Big-tech product management

    (48:46) Nikita on why “product management is not real”

    (51:49) The Tim Cook painting story

    (53:53) Leaving Facebook and starting a new venture

    (58:02) Rebuilding TBH and overcoming challenges

    (59:46) Addressing criticism

    (01:04:24) The human trafficking hoax

    (01:09:51) Selling to Discord and lessons learned

    (01:11:36) Lasting lessons from Gas

    (01:13:14) Building durable consumer apps

    (01:22:35) The VC route

    (01:23:27) Contact permissions in iOS 18

    (01:26:53) The success of Dupe

    (01:31:53) Advice for startup founders

    (01:34:14) Work with Nikita

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    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Succeeding as an introvert, building zero-to-one, and why you should PM your career like you PM your product | Deb Liu (CEO of Ancestry, ex-Facebook, PayPal, eBay)

    Succeeding as an introvert, building zero-to-one, and why you should PM your career like you PM your product | Deb Liu (CEO of Ancestry, ex-Facebook, PayPal, eBay)

    Deb Liu is the CEO of Ancestry and former longtime VP of Product at Facebook. At Facebook, Deb led the creation of Facebook Marketplace, developed the first mobile ad product for apps, built the company’s games business, and launched Facebook Pay. She’s also held leadership roles at PayPal and eBay, serves on the board of Intuit, and is the author of Take Back Your Power. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • Why you should PM your career like you PM your product

    • Strategies for incubating new products within large companies

    • Creating a successful 30-60-90-day plan when starting a new job

    • The pitfalls of perfectionism

    • The challenges introverts face in the workplace and how to overcome them

    • The value of resilience and turning failures into stepping stones

    • How to leverage coaching in your career development

    Brought to you by:

    Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application

    WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs

    Webflow—The web experience platform

    Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/succeeding-as-an-introvert-deb-liu

    Where to find Deb Liu:

    • Threads: https://www.threads.net/@debliu

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deborahliu

    • Substack: https://debliu.substack.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Introduction to Deb Liu

    (02:18) Deb’s career journey and key advice

    (09:45) Navigating new roles and challenges

    (11:27) Overcoming adversity and failure

    (15:07) Building billion-dollar businesses at Facebook

    (19:33) Strategies for zero-to-one innovation

    (23:40) PM your career like a product

    (33:53) Challenges and strategies for introverts in business

    (39:19) Reframing self-promotion

    (42:25) The power of accountability

    (46:15) Growth: a game of inches

    (50:52) The 30-60-90-day plan

    (56:52) Contrarian corner: career and marriage

    (58:57) Final nuggets of wisdom

    (01:03:09) How to find a coach

    (01:04:47) Lightning round

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    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Unorthodox PM wisdom: Automating user insights, unselling job candidates, logging every decision, more | Kevin Yien (Stripe, Square, Mutiny)

    Unorthodox PM wisdom: Automating user insights, unselling job candidates, logging every decision, more | Kevin Yien (Stripe, Square, Mutiny)

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    • Why aspiring PMs should start in engineering, design, or sales

    • The importance of writing skills, and how to become a better writer

    • How to automate user research

    • Kevin’s “unsell email” technique for hiring

    • The value of keeping a decision log

    • Insights on AI and its impact on future generations

    • Lessons from failure

    Brought to you by:

    BuildBetter—AI for product teams

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    Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments

    Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/unorthodox-pm-wisdom-kevin-yien

    Where to find Kevin Yien:

    • X: https://x.com/kevinyien

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinyien/

    • Website: https://kevinyien.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Kevin’s background 

    (02:00) The story behind Kevin’s profile picture

    (08:41) The role of a product manager

    (10:48) Getting started in product management

    (12:47) The importance of writing skills

    (15:06) Becoming a better writer

    (19:10) The PM’s role with engineering and design

    (28:41) Drawing the perimeter for your team

    (31:37) Feedback tips

    (35:13) Decision logs and product sense

    (45:36) Unorthodox hiring strategies

    (47:01) The unsell email strategy

    (54:01) Automating user research

    (01:02:27) AI in everyday life

    (01:06:05) Lessons from failure

    (01:14:34) Lightning round

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Improve strategy, influence, and decision-making by understanding your brain | Evan LaPointe (founder of CORE Sciences)

    Improve strategy, influence, and decision-making by understanding your brain | Evan LaPointe (founder of CORE Sciences)

    Evan LaPointe is the founder of CORE Sciences, which teaches companies and individuals how our brains work and how that translates to improved collaboration, better products, faster decision-making, and more growth. Previously, Evan was the co-founder of Satellite, the fourth-largest analytics company on the internet today (it mostly runs behind the scenes, and pretty much everyone listening will have used it today without knowing it), which was acquired by Adobe, where he later ran product strategy, innovation, and long-range thinking for Adobe’s digital experiences business. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • The three different systems of the brain

    • How knowing this can help you become more influential

    • How understanding different brain states will help you increase productivity and creativity

    • How to improve your vision and strategy skills

    • How to design a work environment that fosters innovation

    • How to build better relationships at work

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Webflow—The web experience platform

    Explo—Embed customer-facing analytics in your product

    Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments

    Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/understanding-your-brain-evan-lapointe

    Where to find Evan LaPointe:

    • X: https://x.com/evanlapointe

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/evanlapointe/

    • Website: https://www.core-sciences.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Evan’s background

    (02:37) Understanding the brain’s complex systems

    (07:17) The three core brain systems: safety, reward, and purpose

    (11:03) Applying brain science to team dynamics

    (14:27) The role of personality in team performance

    (17:27) Creating effective work environments

    (23:16) The science of meetings and decision-making

    (29:35) Enhancing strategy and vision

    (54:46) Understanding personality traits in strategy and vision

    (58:58) Tactical tips for increasing openness

    (01:05:46) Building influence and effective relationships

    (01:21:17) The importance of trust and appeal in relationships

    (01:36:47) Creating a positive organizational habitat

    (01:50:35) Enhancing focus and productivity

    (02:00:58) Practical tips for deep work and gamma time

    (02:07:11) Lightning round

    Referenced:

    • The Most Complicated Object in the Universe: https://today.uconn.edu/2018/03/complicated-object-universe/#

    • The Myers-Briggs personality test: https://www.themyersbriggs.com/en-US/Products-and-Services/Myers-Briggs

    • The Big Five personality test: https://www.thepersonalitylab.org/

    • The Enneagram personality test: https://enneagramtest.com/

    • An inside look at how Figma builds product | Yuhki Yamashita (CPO of Figma): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/an-inside-look-at-how-figma-builds

    • Vision, conviction, and hype: How to build 0 to 1 inside a company | Mihika Kapoor (Product at Figma): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/vision-conviction-hype-mihika-kapoor

    • Dylan Field live at Config: Intuition, simplicity, and the future of design: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/dylan-field-live-at-config

    • An inside look at Figma’s unique GTM motion | Claire Butler (first GTM hire): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/an-inside-look-at-figmas-unique-bottom

    • Inside Canva: Coaches not managers, giving away your Legos, and running profitably | Cameron Adams (co-founder and CPO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-canva-with-cameron-adams

    • The Science-Business Mismatch That Puts Your Change at Risk: https://changemanagementreview.com/the-science-business-mismatch-that-puts-your-change-at-risk/

    • Daniel Pink on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielpink/

    • Trello: https://trello.com/

    • Cron: https://cronhq.notion.site/

    • The Double Diamond framework for design thinking: https://www.fluxspace.io/resources/the-4-ds-double-diamond-design-thinking-model

    • CORE Sciences - Tips on Priming Great Meetings PDF: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gm21cj0vi0bjosyu8kd69/CORE-Sciences-Tips-on-Priming-Great-Meetings.pdf?rlkey=6fznhv7bbsxm8nj8m4luej17t&st=2eduirad&dl=0

    • How to grow a subscription business | Yuriy Timen (Grammarly, Canva, Airtable): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/transform-your-subscription-growth

    • Brené Brown’s website: https://brenebrown.com/

    • The CORE personality test: https://www.core-sciences.com/new-core-identity

    • Burning Man: https://burningman.org/

    • Stripe: https://stripe.com/

    • Jony Ive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jony_Ive

    • Albert Einstein quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7133605-make-things-as-simple-as-possible-but-no-simpler

    • Elden Ring: https://en.bandainamcoent.eu/elden-ring/elden-ring

    • Abilene paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox

    The Challenger Sale: Taking Control of the Customer Conversation: https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Sale-Control-Customer-Conversation/dp/1591844355

    • The surprising truth about what closes deals: Insights from 2.5m sales conversations | Matt Dixon (author of The Challenger Sale and The JOLT Effect): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/close-more-deals-matt-dixon

    • Siqi Chan on X: https://x.com/blader

    • Runway: https://runway.com/

    • Shreyas Doshi on pre-mortems, the LNO framework, the three levels of product work, why most execution problems are strategy problems, and ROI vs. opportunity cost thinking: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/episode-3-shreyas-doshi

    • Wolfgang Puck’s website: https://wolfgangpuck.com/

    • Steven Spielberg on X: https://x.com/sspielberg93

    • John Williams’s website: https://www.johnwilliams.org/

    • The paths to power: How to grow your influence and advance your career | Jeffrey Pfeffer (author of 7 Rules of Power, professor at Stanford GSB): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-paths-to-power-jeffrey-pfeffer

    • Warby Parker: https://www.warbyparker.com/

    • Simon Sinek’s website: https://simonsinek.com/

    • What is the function of the various brainwaves?: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the-function-of-t-1997-12-22/

    • CORE Sciences - Your Brain's 9 Modes PDF: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/figg8upeaawir1hnxv0ew/CORE-Sciences-Your-Brain-s-9-Modes.pdf?rlkey=u3zaonxvycvupurq6pwysckfq&st=os06xjnr&dl=0

    Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It: Unlock Your Persuasion Potential in Professional and Personal Life: https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-Depended/dp/0062407805

    The Person and the Situation: Perspectives of Social Psychology: https://www.amazon.com/Person-Situation-Perspectives-Social-Psychology/dp/1905177445

    Cambridge Fundamentals of Neuroscience in Psychology: https://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Fundamentals-Neuroscience-Psychology/dp/B08QYNDNYX

    • Robert Greene’s books on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Robert-Greene/author/B001IGV3IS

    Misbehaving: The Making of Behavioral Economics: https://www.amazon.com/Misbehaving-Behavioral-Economics-Richard-Thaler/dp/039335279X

    • Beehiiv: https://www.beehiiv.com/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    How embracing your emotions will accelerate your career | Joe Hudson (executive coach, Art of Accomplishment)

    How embracing your emotions will accelerate your career | Joe Hudson (executive coach, Art of Accomplishment)

    Joe Hudson is one of the most sought-after executive coaches in Silicon Valley. He is the founder of Art of Accomplishment, a transformational coaching program that has helped tens of thousands of people, including many tech executives and founders from companies like Apple, OpenAI, and Google. His unique method of transformation comes from over 25 years of exploring neurological, psychological, and spiritual traditions, tested against real-world challenges. In our conversation, Joe shares:

    • Why the critical voice in your head is always wrong, and how to change your relationship with that voice

    • Why authenticity trumps self-improvement

    • The importance of embracing all of your emotions

    • How to create more enjoyable and effective meetings

    • The power of gratitude in transforming your life

    • Practical experiments for personal growth

    • Much more

    Apply for Joe’s Connection Course:

    Thousands of students have taken Joe’s most popular experience, the Connection Course. Unlike most online courses, there is no reading, lectures, or written homework. It is a three-week experiential deep dive where you will apply your learnings to real-life problems—how to make your team more productive, communicate more effectively, and resolve conflicts with ease. Apply here and use the code LENNY for $300 off your enrollment: view.life/lenny.

    Brought to you by:

    BuildBetter—AI for product teams

    WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs

    Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace

    Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/embracing-your-emotions-joe-hudson

    Where to find Joe Hudson:

    • X: https://x.com/FU_joehudson

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-hudson/

    • Website: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/

    • Podcast: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/podcast

    • Linktree: https://linktr.ee/theartofaccomplishment

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Joe’s background

    (02:31) The critical voice in your head

    (06:39) Changing your relationship with the critical voice

    (13:19) Understanding and embracing emotions

    (19:52) The importance of emotional fluidity

    (24:40) Questioning assumptions and self-perception

    (30:25) The consequences of avoiding emotions

    (36:57) Experimenting with self-improvement

    (39:42) Understanding efficiency and enjoyment

    (43:17) The power of enjoyment in daily tasks

    (45:03) Innate enjoyment vs. learned enjoyment

    (46:31) Authenticity vs. self-improvement

    (50:01) Embracing emotional experiences

    (55:49) How understanding your emotions helps you make better decisions

    (01:02:53) Creating effective teams and meetings

    (01:10:40) Gratitude practice for personal growth

    (01:15:36) Conclusion and final thoughts

    Referenced:

    Descartes’ Error: Emotion, Reason, and the Human Brain: https://www.amazon.com/Descartes-Error-Emotion-Reason-Human/dp/014303622X/

    • Joe’s quote about joy: https://x.com/FU_joehudson/status/1756837774743790030

    • “Emotional Inquiry”: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/podcast/emotional-inquiry

    Inside Out 2: https://movies.disney.com/inside-out-2

    • “Question the Assumption”: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/podcast/question-the-assumption

    • Bodega Bay: https://www.bodegabay.com/

    • Elon Musk reveals the interview question he asks every candidate to instantly spot a liar: https://www.good.is/elon-musk-reveals-the-one-job-interview-question-he-asks-every-candidate-to-instantly-spot-a-liar

    • Great Decisions course: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/course/great-decisions-course

    • HBR Analytic Services: https://hbr.org/hbr-analytic-services

    • Connection Course: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/course/the-connection-course

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Lessons from scaling Uber and Opendoor | Brian Tolkin (Head of Product at Opendoor, ex-Uber)

    Lessons from scaling Uber and Opendoor | Brian Tolkin (Head of Product at Opendoor, ex-Uber)

    Brian Tolkin is the Head of Product at Opendoor. Previously, he was one of the early employees at Uber, where he was instrumental in launching and growing UberPool, UberHop, and UberExpress and started one of the first product operations teams in tech. In our conversation, we dive into:

    • How to enable product and ops to work well together

    • How to run great product reviews

    • How to make good decisions with limited data

    • How he uses the jobs-to-be-done framework at Opendoor

    • How to stay calm under pressure as a leader

    • Wild stories from his time at Uber

    • Challenges faced at Opendoor during the pandemic

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application

    Explo—Embed customer-facing analytics in your product

    Attio—The powerful, flexible CRM for fast-growing startups

    Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/scaling-uber-and-opendoor-brian-tolkin

    Where to find Brian Tolkin:

    • X: https://x.com/briantolkin

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/briantolkin/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Brian’s background

    (02:14) Career beginnings at Uber

    (02:49) Transitioning from product operations to product management

    (06:47) Product and operations synergy

    (10:00) Surge pricing at Uber

    (12:18) Scaling challenges, and stories

    (15:47) Opendoor and Covid adaptations

    (25:38) Product reviews and Jobs to Be Done

    (40:30) The challenges of A/B testing

    (42:23) Increasing conviction in solutions

    (44:33) Leveraging intuition in product decisions

    (47:07) Partnering with Zillow

    (52:55) Staying calm under pressure

    (56:25) Finding the “kernel of truth” in product management

    (01:00:21) Failure corner: Early days of Uber Pool

    (01:06:11) Lightning round and final thoughts

    Referenced:

    • Twitter’s former Head of Product opens up: being fired, meeting Elon, changing stagnant culture, building consumer product, more | Kayvon Beykpour: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/twitters-former-head-of-product-kayvon-beykpour

    • Opendoor: https://sell.opendoor.com/

    • How to sell your ideas and rise within your company | Casey Winters, Eventbrite: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-sell-your-ideas-and-rise-within

    • Thinking beyond frameworks | Casey Winters (Pinterest, Eventbrite, Airbnb, Tinder, Canva, Reddit, Grubhub): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/thinking-beyond-frameworks-casey

    • Zigging vs. zagging: How HubSpot built a $30B company | Dharmesh Shah (co-founder/CTO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-30-years-of-building

    • FlashTags: A Simple Hack for Conveying Context Without Confusion: https://www.onstartups.com/flashtags-a-simple-hack-for-conveying-context-without-confusion

    • Jobs to Be Done Theory: https://www.christenseninstitute.org/theory/jobs-to-be-done

    • The ultimate guide to JTBD | Bob Moesta (co-creator of the framework): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-jtbd-bob-moesta-co-creator-of-the-framework/

    • Zillow: https://www.zillow.com/

    • Zillow, Opendoor announce multi-year partnership: https://investor.opendoor.com/news-releases/news-release-details/zillow-opendoor-announce-multi-year-partnership

    • Building product at Stripe: craft, metrics, and customer obsession | Jeff Weinstein (Product lead): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-product-at-stripe-jeff-weinstein

    • Stripe Atlas: https://stripe.com/atlas

    Founders podcast: https://www.founderspodcast.com/

    • Uber will deliver ice cream to you today: https://www.dispatch.com/story/lifestyle/food/2016/07/13/uber-will-deliver-ice-cream/24201840007/

    • UberKittens: https://www.uber.com/newsroom/uberkittens/

    • UberPuppies: https://www.uber.com/blog/uberpuppies-want-to-play/

    Shoe Dog: A Memoir by the Creator of Nike: https://www.amazon.com/Shoe-Dog-Memoir-Creator-NIKE/dp/1471146723

    The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable: https://www.amazon.com/Black-Swan-Impact-Improbable-Incerto/dp/1400063515

    The Design of Everyday Things: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0465050654

    Shantaram: https://www.amazon.com/Shantaram-SHANTARAM-Paperback-GregoryDavidRoberts/dp/B00QPVJESC

    Full Swing on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81483353

    Formula 1: Drive to Survive on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80204890

    Break Point on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81569920

    Air on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/AIR-Matt-Damon/dp/B0B8Q3JMCG

    • Fi smart dog collar: https://tryfi.com/

    • Particle: https://particlenews.ai/

    • Sara Beykpour on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarabeykpour/

    • A new-parent gift guide for product managers: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-new-parent-gift-guide-for-product

    • Jeff Holden on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffholden/

    • Travis Kalanick on X: https://x.com/travisk

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    The ultimate guide to performance marketing | Timothy Davis (Shopify)

    The ultimate guide to performance marketing | Timothy Davis (Shopify)

    Timothy Davis has led performance marketing for all of Shopify for the past 2.5 years, and as a consultant has helped companies like Pinterest, LinkedIn, Redfin, and Eventbrite kickstart and scale their performance marketing teams. In every one of those cases, he got them so performant at paid growth that they significantly scale spend and investment in these channels. In our conversation, we cover:

    • When and how to start investing in performance marketing

    • Common mistakes companies make with paid ads

    • How to build and structure a performance marketing team

    • How to get your creatives performing better

    • Strategies for optimizing workflows and team efficiency

    • How AI will change performance marketing

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    BuildBetter—AI for product teams

    OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster

    Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments

    Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/performance-marketing-timothy-davis

    Where to find Timothy Davis:

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timothypatrickdavis/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Timothy’s background 

    (02:31) Understanding performance marketing 

    (06:31) The importance of paid search 

    (08:39) Identifying growth potential 

    (09:54) Case studies: Hairstory and Ipsy 

    (12:22) Experimenting with new platforms 

    (18:57) Choosing the right platforms 

    (20:23) LinkedIn for B2B marketing 

    (27:56) When to start investing in paid growth 

    (33:33) Common mistakes in performance marketing 

    (37:41) Working with agencies and consultants 

    (40:36) Hiring for performance marketing 

    (47:33) Metrics that matter 

    (54:43) Competitor analysis and CPC insights 

    (56:15) Custom reports and data visualization

    (56:38) Understanding impression and click share 

    (59:10) True competition metrics 

    (01:02:14) Attribution and incrementality 

    (01:08:52) Building a performance marketing team 

    (01:10:53) Creative and ad copy collaboration 

    (01:15:48) Managing workload and hiring strategy 

    (01:20:52) Training and onboarding new hires 

    (01:24:41) Impact of ATT on performance marketing 

    (01:25:56) The power of creative in ads 

    (01:29:47) Using AI in performance marketing 

    (01:37:16) Lightning round 

    Referenced:

    • Shopify: https://www.shopify.com/

    • What Is Performance Marketing?: https://www.shopify.com/blog/performance-marketing

    • Google AI: https://ai.google/

    • Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/

    • Eventbrite: https://www.eventbrite.com/

    • Booking.com: https://www.booking.com/

    • Credit Karma: https://www.creditkarma.com/

    • Hairstory: https://hairstory.com/

    • Google Display Network: https://www.semrush.com/blog/google-display-network/

    • SoftLayer Becomes Part of IBM’s SmartCloud: https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/deals/softlayer-becomes-part-of-ibm-s-smartcloud

    • Coca-Cola Freestyle: https://www.coca-colafreestyle.com/

    • Monday.com: https://monday.com/

    • How to sell your ideas and rise within your company | Casey Winters, Eventbrite: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-sell-your-ideas-and-rise-within

    • Thinking beyond frameworks | Casey Winters (Pinterest, Eventbrite, Airbnb, Tinder, Canva, Reddit, Grubhub): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/thinking-beyond-frameworks-casey

    The Signal and the Noise: Why So Many Predictions Fail—But Some Don’t: https://www.amazon.com/Signal-Noise-Many-Predictions-Fail-but/dp/0143125087

    • Courtney Wenneborg on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cwenneborg/

    • PPC Hero: https://www.ppchero.com/

    • Another Deep Dive into Auction Insights, by Jacob Brown: https://www.ppchero.com/another-deep-dive-into-auction-insights/

    •Multitouch: https://multitouch.app/

    • What is time decay attribution?: https://growthmethod.com/what-is-time-decay-attribution/

    • Linear: https://linear.app/

    • Consumer Heterogeneity and Paid Search Effectiveness: A Large-Scale Field Experiment: https://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/stadelis/BNT_ECMA_rev.pdf

    • ADT: https://www.adt.com/

    • Shopify Bursts: https://focus.business/blog/shopify-bursts/

    The First 90 Days: Proven Strategies for Getting Up to Speed Faster and Smarter: https://www.amazon.com/First-90-Days-Strategies-Expanded/dp/1422188612

    • Kat Nguyen on Shopify: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katngy/

    • Dollar Shave Club ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUG9qYTJMsI

    The Daily Stoic: 366 Meditations on Wisdom, Perseverance, and the Art of Living: https://www.amazon.com/Daily-Stoic-Meditations-Wisdom-Perseverance/dp/0735211736

    Great by Choice: Uncertainty, Chaos, and Luck—Why Some Thrive Despite Them All: https://www.amazon.com/Great-Choice-Uncertainty-Luck-Why-Despite/dp/0062120999

    X-Men ’97 on Disney+: https://www.disneyplus.com/series/x-men-97/vc1XIz90ZNH5

    RRR on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81476453

    The Playlist on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81186296

    Welcome to Wrexham on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/welcome-to-wrexham-c6906d50-d06c-40d1-a57c-1885d9dc2fef

    The Billion Dollar Code on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81074012

    • Magic Mind: https://magicmind.com/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    5 essential questions to craft a winning strategy | Roger Martin (author, advisor, speaker)

    5 essential questions to craft a winning strategy | Roger Martin (author, advisor, speaker)

    Roger Martin is one of the world’s leading experts on strategy and the author of Playing to Win, one of the most beloved books on strategy. He’s written extensively for the Harvard Business Review; consulted for dozens of Fortune 500 companies, including P&G, Lego, and Ford; and written 11 other books. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • The five key questions you need to answer to develop an effective strategy

    • Why most companies get strategy wrong

    • How to avoid “playing to play” instead of playing to win

    • Real-world strategy examples from Procter & Gamble, Southwest Airlines, Lego, and Figma

    • How to think about differentiation vs. low cost

    • Shortcomings of current strategy education

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Webflow—The web experience platform

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    Cycle—Your feedback hub, on autopilot

    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-strategy-roger-martin

    Where to find Roger Martin:

    • X: https://x.com/RogerLMartin

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/roger-martin-9916911a9/

    • Website: https://rogerlmartin.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Roger’s background

    (02:20) The importance of strategy

    (07:00) Challenges in developing strategy

    (08:30) Critique of modern strategy education

    (14:00) Hamilton Helmer and Richard Rumelt

    (17:40) Defining strategy

    (19:12) The Strategy Choice Cascade

    (23:20) Playing to win vs. playing to play

    (24:57) Examples of strategic success

    (30:49) Differentiation and moats

    (40:23) Applying strategy to real-world scenarios

    (43:47) Customer-centric strategy

    (44:45) Defining the market and product

    (45:59) Value chain and distribution

    (48:28) Cost leadership vs. differentiation

    (53:16) Capabilities and management systems

    (57:14) Competitive advantage and market positioning

    (01:02:41) Counterpositioning and fault lines

    (01:05:53) Adapting to AI and market changes

    (01:14:11) Betterment over perfection

    (01:18:42) Final thoughts on strategy

    Referenced:

    • Nearly 10% of S&P 500 CEOs are alumni of Procter & Gamble: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/02/06/10-of-s-p-500-ceos-pg.html

    • FigJam: https://www.figma.com/figjam/

    • Figma: https://www.figma.com/

    • What Is Resource-Based Theory?: https://www.igi-global.com/dictionary/the-impact-of-technological-governance-and-political-capabilities-on-firms-performances-under-economic-turbulence/67915

    • Michael Porter on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/professorporter/

    Competitive Strategy: Techniques for Analyzing Industries and Competitors: https://www.amazon.com/Competitive-Strategy-Techniques-Industries-Competitors/dp/0684841487

    • VRIO Framework Explained: https://strategicmanagementinsight.com/tools/vrio/

    • Business strategy with Hamilton Helmer (author of 7 Powers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/business-strategy-with-hamilton-helmer

    • Good Strategy, Bad Strategy | Richard Rumelt: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/good-strategy-bad-strategy-richard

    7 Powers: The Foundations of Business Strategy: https://www.amazon.com/7-Powers-Foundations-Business-Strategy/dp/0998116319

    • Boston Consulting Group: https://www.bcg.com/

    • Bruce Henderson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Henderson

    • Lego: https://www.lego.com

    • Vanguard: https://investor.vanguard.com/

    • Southwest Airlines: https://www.southwest.com/

    • How Amazon Managed to Dethrone Walmart: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/20/technology/how-amazon-beat-walmart.html

    • GM Lost a 10-Year Battle with Tesla, Pulling the Plug on a Long Line of EVs: https://www.forbes.com/sites/brookecrothers/2023/07/09/gm-killed-its-electric-cars-and-lost-a-10-year-battle-with-tesla/

    • Westlaw: https://www.westlawinternational.com/

    • What Is an Economic Moat? Why Warren Buffett Says It Matters for Investors: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/economic-moat-why-warren-buffett-160046125.html

    • Salomon Brothers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salomon_Brothers

    • US Airways: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways

    • Four Seasons: https://www.fourseasons.com/

    • Michael Dell on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mdell/

    • Bill Gates on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/williamhgates/

    • Mandarin Oriental: https://www.mandarinoriental.com/en/

    • Continental Lite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Lite

    • Ted (airline): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_(airline)

    • Case Study: Oil of Olay: https://www.studocu.com/es/document/universidad-de-murcia/estrategia-de-marketing/case-study-old-of-olay/95079369

    • AG Lafley on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ag-lafley-2381b3201/

    • Jack Bogle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Bogle

    • Seven Ways Windows 95 Changed the World: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ianmorris/2015/08/24/windows-95-changed-the-world/

    • Where to Start with Strategy? Focus on Betterment: https://rogermartin.medium.com/where-to-start-with-strategy-bae40506304c

    • Brick by brick: The man who rebuilt the house of Lego shares his leadership secrets: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2016/12/08/brick-by-brick-the-man-who-rebuilt-the-house-of-lego-shares-his-leadership-secrets/

    A New Way to Think: Your Guide to Superior Management Effectiveness: https://www.amazon.com/New-Way-Think-Management-Effectiveness/dp/164782351X/

    Playing to Win: How Strategy Really Works: https://www.amazon.com/Playing-Win-Strategy-Really-Works/dp/142218739X

    The Design of Business: Why Design Thinking Is the Next Competitive Advantage: https://www.amazon.com/Design-Business-Thinking-Competitive-Advantage/dp/1422177807

    The Opposable Mind: How Successful Leaders Win Through Integrative Thinking: https://www.amazon.com/Opposable-Mind-Successful-Integrative-Thinking/dp/1422118924

    When More Is Not Better: Overcoming America’s Obsession with Economic Efficiency: https://www.amazon.com/When-More-Not-Better-Overcoming/dp/1647820065

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    What most people miss about marketing | Rory Sutherland (Vice Chairman of Ogilvy UK, author)

    What most people miss about marketing | Rory Sutherland (Vice Chairman of Ogilvy UK, author)

    Rory Sutherland is widely regarded as one of the most influential (and most entertaining) thinkers in marketing and behavioral science. He’s the vice chairman of Ogilvy UK, the author of Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life, and the founder of Nudgestock, the world’s biggest festival of behavioral science and creativity. He champions thinking from first principles and using human psychology—what he calls “thinking psycho-logically”—over mere logic. In our conversation, we cover:

    • Why good products don’t always succeed, and bad ones don’t necessarily fail

    • Why less functionality can sometimes be more valuable

    • The importance of fame in building successful brands

    • The importance of timing in product success

    • The concept of “most advanced, yet acceptable”

    • Why metrics-driven workplaces can be demotivating

    • Lots of real-world case studies

    • Much more

    Note: We encountered some technical difficulties that led to less than ideal video quality for this episode, but the lessons from this conversation made it impossible for me to not publish it anyway. Thanks for your understanding and for bearing with the less-than-ideal video quality. 

    Brought to you by:

    Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application

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    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-most-people-miss-about-marketing

    Where to find Rory Sutherland:

    • X: https://x.com/rorysutherland

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rorysutherland

    • Book: Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life: https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Curious-Science-Creating-Business/dp/006238841X

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Rory’s background

    (02:37) The success and failure of products

    (04:08) Why the urge to appear serious can be a disaster in marketing

    (08:05) The role of distinctiveness in product design

    (12:29) The MAYA principle

    (15:50) How thinking irrationally can be advantageous

    (17:40) The fault of multiple-choice tests

    (21:31) Companies that have successfully implemented out-of-the-box thinking

    (30:31) “Psycho-logical” thinking

    (31:45) The hare and the dog metaphor

    (38:51) Marketing’s crucial role in product adoption

    (49:21) The quirks of Google Glass

    (55:44) Survivorship bias

    (56:09) Balancing rational ideas with irrational ideas

    (01:06:19) The rise and fall of tech innovations

    (01:09:54) Consistency, distinctiveness, and clarity

    (01:21:12) Considering psychological, technological, and economic factors in parallel

    (01:23:35) Where to find Rory

    Referenced:

    • Google Glass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Glass

    • Meta Portal TV: https://www.meta.com/portal/products/portal-tv/

    • Rory’s quote in a LinkedIn post: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/brad-jackson-04766642_the-urge-to-appear-serious-is-a-disaster-activity-7093497742710210560-1LYN/

    • The MAYA Principle: Design for the Future, but Balance It with Your Users’ Present: https://www.interaction-design.org/literature/article/design-for-the-future-but-balance-it-with-your-users-present

    • Ogilvy: https://www.ogilvy.com/

    • MCI: https://www.mci.world/

    • Veuve Clicquot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veuve_Clicquot

    • Why do the French call the British ‘the roast beefs’?: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/2913151.stm

    The Killing on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/the-killing-f5da5c2d-4626-4ba9-bcf3-ff5f891771fb

    • Original The Killing on BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017h7m1

    • The Mandarin Oriental, Hong Kong: https://www.mandarinoriental.com/en/hong-kong/victoria-harbour

    • SAT: https://satsuite.collegeboard.org/sat

    • The Widening Racial Scoring Gap on the SAT College Admissions Test: https://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html

    • What is the age of the captain?: https://www.icopilots.com/what-is-the-age-of-the-captain/

    • Octopus Energy: https://octopus.energy/

    • Kraken: https://octopusenergy.group/kraken-technologies

    • Toby Shannan: https://theorg.com/org/shopify/org-chart/toby-shannan

    • Dunbar’s number: Why we can only maintain 150 relationships: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191001-dunbars-number-why-we-can-only-maintain-150-relationships

    • AO: https://ao.com/

    • Zappos: https://www.zappos.com/

    • Joe Cano on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeycano/

    • John Ralston Saul’s website: https://www.johnralstonsaul.com/

    Voltaire’s Bastards: The Dictatorship of Reason in the West: https://www.amazon.com/Voltaires-Bastards-Dictatorship-Reason-West/dp/0679748199

    • Psycho-Logic: Why Too Much Logic Deters Magic: https://coffeeandjunk.com/psycho-logic/

    • Herbert Simon’s Decision-Making Approach: https://bura.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/4995/1/Fulltext.pdf

    • Robert Trivers’s website: https://roberttrivers.com/Welcome.html

    • Crazy Ivan: https://jollycontrarian.com/index.php?title=Crazy_Ivan

    • The Joys of Being a Late Tech Adopter: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/28/technology/personaltech/joys-late-tech-adopter.html

    • Jean-Claude Van Damme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Van_Damme

    • Tim Berners-Lee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee

    • Edward Jenner and the history of smallpox and vaccination: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200696/

    • The real story behind penicillin: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/the-real-story-behind-the-worlds-first-antibiotic

    • What Are Japanese Toilets?: https://www.bigbathroomshop.co.uk/info/blog/japanese-toilets/

    • reMarkable: https://remarkable.com/

    • Chumby: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumby

    • Survivorship bias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

    • Jony Ive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jony_Ive

    • Marc Newson’s website: https://marc-newson.com/

    • Designing Men: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2013/11/jony-ive-marc-newson-design-auction

    • Qantas A330: https://marc-newson.com/qantas-a330/

    • Herodotus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus

    • Big Decision? Consider It Both Drunk and Sober: https://www.forbes.com/sites/chunkamui/2016/03/22/wine-and-sleep-make-for-better-decisions/?sh=5c97fdc524b1

    • How Henry Ford and Thomas Edison killed the electric car: https://www.speakev.com/threads/how-henry-ford-and-thomas-edison-killed-the-electric-car.4270/

    • Watch Jay Leno get nostalgic and swoon over this 1909 EV: https://thenextweb.com/news/jay-leno-talk-about-electric-car-1909-baker

    Jay Leno’s Garage: https://www.youtube.com/@jaylenosgarage

    • Nudgestock: https://nudgestock.com/

    • Akio Morita: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akio_Morita

    • Don Norman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donnorman/

    • What Makes Tesla’s Business Model Different: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/active-trading/072115/what-makes-teslas-business-model-different.asp

    • Monica Lewinsky on X: https://x.com/MonicaLewinsky

    Blindsight: The (Mostly) Hidden Ways Marketing Reshapes Our Brains: azon.com/Blindsight-Mostly-Hidden-Marketing-Reshapes-ebook/dp/B07ZKZ5DWF

    Branding That Means Business: https://www.amazon.com/Branding-that-Means-Business-Economist-ebook/dp/B09QBCCH9N

    • PwC: https://www.pwc.com

    • Ryanair: https://www.ryanair.com

    • British Airways: https://www.britishairways.com/

    • Wrigley’s began as a soap business: know when to pivot: https://theamericangenius.com/entrepreneur/wrigleys-began-as-soap-know-when-to-pivot/

    Transport for Humans: https://www.amazon.com/Transport-Humans-Perspectives-Pete-Dyson/dp/1913019357

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

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