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    • Biden's Economic Shift: From Career to Crisis Response to Transformative PoliciesBiden's economic strategy under his presidency is a departure from his past, focusing on addressing inequality and climate change in response to the pandemic's impact, rather than just crisis response.

      The Biden presidency and its economic policies are a departure from Joe Biden's past career, marking a shift towards a more ambitious and transformative approach. The American Rescue Plan and the American Jobs Plan are not just responses to the coronavirus crisis but critiques of the pre-pandemic economy, which is viewed as a disaster for people and the planet. Brian Deese, director of the National Economic Council, emphasizes that the Biden administration's economic strategy is no longer viable if it's unresponsive or agnostic to issues like economic inequality and climate change. This shift is reflected in the administration's bills and policies, which aim to address these fundamental challenges. Politically, Deese admits that there has been a change in thinking since 2009, with a greater recognition of the need to tackle these issues head-on.

    • Focusing on both policy goals and political supportEffective policy making requires addressing both policy goals and political support, especially during crises. Engage with beneficiaries for momentum and maintain support, while prioritizing climate change, distributional consequences, and public resonance.

      Effective policy making requires a strong focus on both the policy goals and the political support needed to sustain them. During the 2009 financial crisis, this meant prioritizing direct engagement with the ultimate beneficiaries of relief efforts, such as small businesses and communities, to generate political momentum and maintain support for good policy. Economically, the speaker has since come to place greater importance on addressing the impacts of climate change and mitigating its effects, as well as recognizing the distributional consequences of fiscal policy and their resonance with the public.

    • US focus on domestic industrial strength and targeted policiesThe economic crisis and global shifts have prompted the US to prioritize domestic industrial strength and targeted policies, contrasting China's strategic investments and industrial base building.

      The economic crisis and the changing global economic landscape have made the US more focused on domestic industrial strength and targeted economic policies, particularly in contrast to China's strategic investments. The administration's perspective has shifted due to China's deliberate focus on building its industrial and innovation base over the past decade, while the US let those levers deteriorate. Additionally, after the last few years of uncertainty regarding the US's ability to competently govern and invest in its own welfare, the world is closely watching US domestic policy and economic policy, with China often serving as the relevant comparator. The administration's thinking has changed due to the need to address weaknesses in the US economy and reassert US leadership on the global stage.

    • China's role in global economy and US supply chainsThe pandemic highlighted US economy's vulnerability to globalized supply chains, with China as a critical player. The Biden admin aims to address these issues, maintain transparency, and deliver on promises to workers.

      China's economic and military power, vulnerabilities in global supply chains, and the political risks in the US have come into sharper focus during the pandemic. China's position as a critical actor in the global economy and its impact on US supply chains require serious consideration. The pandemic has exposed the vulnerabilities of the US economy to a globalized economy, where complex supply chains involve multiple countries. Politically, there's a heightened sense of the stakes, as people have lived through the Trump administration and are dealing with the economic and personal challenges of the pandemic. The Biden administration is focused on addressing these issues, maintaining transparency, and delivering on its promises to working people. Negotiating with the Democratic caucus has changed, with a focus on delivering on a big and ambitious agenda despite slim majorities. The pandemic and international tensions have created a unique opportunity for significant change.

    • Bold Agenda Without Extensive Pre-NegotiationsBiden administration focuses on delivering on a clear vision for the country, even if not initially bipartisan, and aims to bridge the disconnect with the opposing party

      The current political climate in Washington, D.C. is different from past administrations in that the focus is on delivering on a bold agenda without extensive pre-negotiations with the opposing party. President Biden believes in outlining a clear vision for the country and trying to galvanize support around it, even if some elements may not initially have bipartisan backing. The jobs plan, for instance, proposes bold initiatives, such as infrastructure investments, which have broad support across the country but may not align with the priorities of congressional Republicans and their base. The administration aims to bridge this disconnect and work towards finding common ground, rather than trimming their sails to accommodate potential opposition.

    • Addressing economic inequality and climate change through infrastructure investment and innovative solutionsThe American Jobs Plan focuses on reducing economic inequality and mitigating climate change by investing in infrastructure and exploring a range of innovative solutions, with a priority on bipartisan cooperation and addressing underinvested areas, particularly rural America.

      The American Jobs Plan aims to address both economic inequality and climate change through meaningful infrastructure investment and a broader range of potential solutions. The current administration recognizes the need for bipartisan cooperation and understands that underinvested areas, particularly rural America, require significant attention. Young economists bring fresh perspectives and openness to understanding the roots of economic inequality, as well as the importance of worker power, competition, and antitrust. The team also values the combination of fresh thinking and experience. The administration's approach to climate change involves addressing vulnerabilities in key sectors and promoting industrial strength while avoiding wasteful practices. The team's formative experiences during the financial crisis and the climate crisis have shaped their views on the role of government, with climate being a top economic priority.

    • Building climate-conscious infrastructureInvesting in climate-resilient infrastructure and transforming major systems like transportation, power, and industry can create jobs, stimulate economic growth, and pave the way for a zero-carbon future. The government should play an active role in accelerating the transition.

      In light of the increasing frequency and severity of extreme weather events, it's crucial to build infrastructure with a climate-conscious perspective. This means considering resilience, smart design, and sustainability in every aspect of infrastructure development. Additionally, transforming major systems like transportation, power, and industry is necessary to combat climate change effectively. Investing in infrastructure projects, such as electric charging stations, energy-efficient buildings, and low-carbon industrial applications, can create jobs, stimulate economic growth, and pave the way for a zero-carbon future. However, some argue that the private sector should lead these efforts. While this is true in theory, the urgency and scale of the climate crisis call for a more active role from the government to accelerate the transition and ensure equitable access to these opportunities.

    • Unlocking private capital for foundational elementsA strategic approach is needed to invest in innovation ecosystems and infrastructure to make the US a leader in growing industries, create jobs, and overcome market failures and political issues with public investment or intervention, while communicating benefits to the public.

      A strategic and nuanced approach is necessary to unlock private capital for foundational elements in sectors like transportation and energy efficiency. While the private sector may eventually solve some challenges, such as charging stations for electric vehicles, investing upfront in innovation ecosystems and infrastructure can make the US a leader in growing industries and create jobs. However, not all barriers can be solved by pricing alone, and public investment or intervention can help overcome market failures and political issues. Additionally, it's important to communicate the benefits of these investments to the public, creating a positive narrative and enabling Americans to see tangible improvements in their lives.

    • Transition to electric vehicles and infrastructure developmentBiden administration's American Jobs Plan focuses on shovel-ready and shovel-worthy projects, investing in state and local technical capabilities, and unlocking private investment for decarbonized transportation and electrification.

      The transition to electric vehicles and infrastructure development are inevitable, but the key is to ensure this transition benefits the economy, American workers, and consumers. The Biden administration's American Jobs Plan focuses on both shovel-ready and shovel-worthy projects, emphasizing the importance of planning and technical capability. The plan also aims to invest in state and local technical capabilities through an infrastructure America authority and competitive funding. Additionally, the administration recognizes the opportunities for public capital to unlock private investment in the transportation and electric systems as the market shifts towards decarbonized sources of transportation and electrification.

    • Investing in clean energy and caregiving infrastructureThe American Jobs Plan proposes creating a clean energy accelerator and bank, and improving caregiving infrastructure to address housing, economic growth, and the caregiving crisis.

      The American Jobs Plan proposes the creation of a clean energy accelerator and bank, inspired by bipartisan efforts and international examples. This initiative aims to invest in local capacity and laws to facilitate the construction of new housing and promote economic growth. Additionally, the plan addresses the pre-existing caregiving crisis by focusing on improving infrastructure for home and community-based care, addressing the backlog in Medicaid and home care services, and ensuring affordable and quality child care to enable parents, particularly women, to rejoin the workforce post-pandemic.

    • The pandemic exposed the inadequacies of care infrastructure, particularly for families with elderly parents or young children.The pandemic brought to light the need for investment in care options and fair wages for care workers to ensure accessible, quality care for all.

      The pandemic highlighted the inadequacies and absences in the care infrastructure for families, particularly those with elderly parents or young children. This reality was previously hidden from many, but the pandemic brought it to the forefront for everyone. The care workforce, predominantly women and paid poverty wages, were also exposed as an essential yet undervalued part of this infrastructure. The proposed solutions include investing in increasing the supply of care options, such as childcare facilities, and improving the working conditions and wages for care workers. The ultimate goal is to create a system where quality care is accessible, compensated fairly, and provides career opportunities for workers. This is a core part of the broader economic agenda, which aims to address market failures and worker power imbalances. The investments in research and development should also prioritize creating quality job opportunities in the US.

    • Government procurement driving tech development and creating jobsThe Biden admin's jobs plan leverages federal procurement to advance tech, create markets, and generate better paying jobs. Committing to green building materials and American-made products creates stable demand, while bulk EV purchases can reduce costs and accelerate battery tech.

      The Biden administration's jobs plan and use of federal procurement can significantly advance technology development and create new markets, leading to better paying jobs. By committing to purchasing lower carbon building materials and American-made products, the government can create stable demand for domestic manufacturers. Similarly, bulk purchases of electric vehicles can help reduce costs and accelerate battery technology advancements. However, the success of this plan hinges on effective execution and implementation, which will require a focus on professionalism and expertise within the civil service at the federal, state, and local levels. The risks of inflation and budget deficits are less concerning due to the multiyear investment nature of the plan and its potential to be offset over time.

    Recent Episodes from The Ezra Klein Show

    How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work

    How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work

    After President Biden’s rough performance at the first presidential debate, the question of an open convention has roared to the front of Democratic politics. But how would an open convention work? What would be its risks? What would be its rewards? 

    In February, after I first made the case for an open Democratic convention, I interviewed Elaine Kamarck to better understand what an open convention would look like. She literally wrote the book on how we choose presidential candidates, “Primary Politics: Everything You Need to Know About How America Nominates Its Presidential Candidates.” But her background here isn’t just theory. She’s worked on four presidential campaigns and on 10 nominating conventions — for both Democrats and Republicans. She’s a member of the Democratic National Committee’s Rules Committee. And her explanation of the mechanics and dynamics of open conventions was, for me, extremely helpful. It’s even more relevant now than it was then. 

    Mentioned:

    The Lincoln Miracle by Ed Achorn

    Book Recommendations:

    All the King’s Men by Robert Penn Warren

    The Making of the President 1960 by Theodore H. White

    Quiet Revolution by Byron E. Shafer

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Kristin Lin. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    This conversation was recorded in February 2024.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJuly 02, 2024

    What Is the Democratic Party For?

    What Is the Democratic Party For?

    Top Democrats have closed ranks around Joe Biden since the debate. Should they? 

    Mentioned:

    This Isn’t All Joe Biden’s Fault” by Ezra Klein

    Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden” by The Ezra Klein Show

    Here’s How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work” with Elaine Kamarck on The Ezra Klein Show

    The Hollow Parties by Daniel Schlozman and Sam Rosenfeld

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This audio essay was produced by Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Fact-Checking by Jack McCordick and Michelle Harris. Mixing by Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld, Elias Isquith and Aman Sahota. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 30, 2024

    After That Debate, the Risk of Biden Is Clear

    After That Debate, the Risk of Biden Is Clear

    I joined my Times Opinion colleagues Ross Douthat and Michelle Cottle to discuss the debate — and what Democrats might do next.

    Mentioned:

    The Biden and Trump Weaknesses That Don’t Get Enough Attention” by Ross Douthat

    Trump’s Bold Vision for America: Higher Prices!” with Matthew Yglesias on The Ezra Klein Show

    Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden” on The Ezra Klein Show

    Here’s How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work” with Elaine Kamarck on The Ezra Klein Show

    Gretchen Whitmer on The Interview

    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump” with Sam Rosenfeld and Daniel Schlozman on The Ezra Klein Show

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 28, 2024

    Trump’s Bold Vision for America: Higher Prices!

    Trump’s Bold Vision for America: Higher Prices!

    Donald Trump has made inflation a central part of his campaign message. At his rallies, he rails against “the Biden inflation tax” and “crooked Joe’s inflation nightmare,” and promises that in a second Trump term, “inflation will be in full retreat.”

    But if you look at Trump’s actual policies, that wouldn’t be the case at all. Trump has a bold, ambitious agenda to make prices much, much higher. He’s proposing a 10 percent tariff on imported goods, and a 60 percent tariff on products from China. He wants to deport huge numbers of immigrants. And he’s made it clear that he’d like to replace the Federal Reserve chair with someone more willing to take orders from him. It’s almost unimaginable to me that you would run on this agenda at a time when Americans are so mad about high prices. But I don’t think people really know that’s what Trump is vowing to do.

    So to drill into the weeds of Trump’s plans, I decided to call up an old friend. Matt Yglesias is a Bloomberg Opinion columnist and the author of the Slow Boring newsletter, where he’s been writing a lot about Trump’s proposals. We also used to host a policy podcast together, “The Weeds.”

    In this conversation, we discuss what would happen to the economy, especially in terms of inflation, if Trump actually did what he says he wants to do; what we can learn from how Trump managed the economy in his first term; and why more people aren’t sounding the alarm.

    Mentioned:

    Trump’s new economic plan is terrible” by Matthew Yglesias

    Never mind: Wall Street titans shake off qualms and embrace Trump” by Sam Sutton

    How Far Trump Would Go” by Eric Cortellessa

    Book Recommendations:

    Take Back the Game by Linda Flanagan

    1177 B.C. by Eric H. Cline

    The Rise of the G.I. Army, 1940-1941 by Paul Dickson

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Mixing by Isaac Jones, with Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero, Adam Posen and Michael Strain.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 21, 2024

    The Biggest Political Divide Is Not Left vs. Right

    The Biggest Political Divide Is Not Left vs. Right

    The biggest divide in our politics isn’t between Democrats and Republicans, or even left and right. It’s between people who follow politics closely, and those who pay almost no attention to it. If you’re in the former camp — and if you’re reading this, you probably are — the latter camp can seem inscrutable. These people hardly ever look at political news. They hate discussing politics. But they do care about issues and candidates, and they often vote.

    As the 2024 election takes shape, this bloc appears crucial to determining who wins the presidency. An NBC News poll from April found that 15 percent of voters don’t follow political news, and Donald Trump was winning them by 26 points.

    Yanna Krupnikov studies exactly this kind of voter. She’s a professor of communication and media at the University of Michigan and an author, with John Barry Ryan, of “The Other Divide: Polarization and Disengagement in American Politics.” The book examines how the chasm between the deeply involved and the less involved shapes politics in America. I’ve found it to be a helpful guide for understanding one of the most crucial dynamics emerging in this year’s election: the swing to Trump from President Biden among disengaged voters.

    In this conversation, we discuss how politically disengaged voters relate to politics; where they get their information about politics and how they form opinions; and whether major news events, like Trump’s recent conviction, might sway them.

    Mentioned:

    The ‘Need for Chaos’ and Motivations to Share Hostile Political Rumors” by Michael Bang Petersen, Mathias Osmundsen and Kevin Arceneaux

    Hooked by Markus Prior

    The Political Influence of Lifestyle Influencers? Examining the Relationship Between Aspirational Social Media Use and Anti-Expert Attitudes and Beliefs” by Ariel Hasell and Sedona Chinn

    One explanation for the 2024 election’s biggest mystery” by Eric Levitz

    Book Recommendations:

    What Goes Without Saying by Taylor N. Carlson and Jaime E. Settle

    Through the Grapevine by Taylor N. Carlson

    Sorry I’m Late, I Didn’t Want to Come by Jessica Pan

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 18, 2024

    The View From the Israeli Right

    The View From the Israeli Right

    On Tuesday I got back from an eight-day trip to Israel and the West Bank. I happened to be there on the day that Benny Gantz resigned from the war cabinet and called on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to schedule new elections, breaking the unity government that Israel had had since shortly after Oct. 7.

    There is no viable left wing in Israel right now. There is a coalition that Netanyahu leads stretching from right to far right and a coalition that Gantz leads stretching from center to right. In the early months of the war, Gantz appeared ascendant as support for Netanyahu cratered. But now Netanyahu’s poll numbers are ticking back up.

    So one thing I did in Israel was deepen my reporting on Israel’s right. And there, Amit Segal’s name kept coming up. He’s one of Israel’s most influential political analysts and the author of “The Story of Israeli Politics” is coming out in English.

    Segal and I talked about the political differences between Gantz and Netanyahu, the theory of security that’s emerging on the Israeli right, what happened to the Israeli left, the threat from Iran and Hezbollah and how Netanyahu is trying to use President Biden’s criticism to his political advantage.

    Mentioned:

    Biden May Spur Another Netanyahu Comeback” by Amit Segal

    Book Recommendations:

    The Years of Lyndon Johnson Series by Robert A. Caro

    The World of Yesterday by Stefan Zweig

    The Object of Zionism by Zvi Efrat

    The News from Waterloo by Brian Cathcart

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 14, 2024

    The Economic Theory That Explains Why Americans Are So Mad

    The Economic Theory That Explains Why Americans Are So Mad

    There’s something weird happening with the economy. On a personal level, most Americans say they’re doing pretty well right now. And according to the data, that’s true. Wages have gone up faster than inflation. Unemployment is low, the stock market is generally up so far this year, and people are buying more stuff.

    And yet in surveys, people keep saying the economy is bad. A recent Harris poll for The Guardian found that around half of Americans think the S. & P. 500 is down this year, and that unemployment is at a 50-year high. Fifty-six percent think we’re in a recession.

    There are many theories about why this gap exists. Maybe political polarization is warping how people see the economy or it’s a failure of President Biden’s messaging, or there’s just something uniquely painful about inflation. And while there’s truth in all of these, it felt like a piece of the story was missing.

    And for me, that missing piece was an article I read right before the pandemic. An Atlantic story from February 2020 called “The Great Affordability Crisis Breaking America.” It described how some of Americans’ biggest-ticket expenses — housing, health care, higher education and child care — which were already pricey, had been getting steadily pricier for decades.

    At the time, prices weren’t the big topic in the economy; the focus was more on jobs and wages. So it was easier for this trend to slip notice, like a frog boiling in water, quietly, putting more and more strain on American budgets. But today, after years of high inflation, prices are the biggest topic in the economy. And I think that explains the anger people feel: They’re noticing the price of things all the time, and getting hammered with the reality of how expensive these things have become.

    The author of that Atlantic piece is Annie Lowrey. She’s an economics reporter, the author of Give People Money, and also my wife. In this conversation, we discuss how the affordability crisis has collided with our post-pandemic inflationary world, the forces that shape our economic perceptions, why people keep spending as if prices aren’t a strain and what this might mean for the presidential election.

    Mentioned:

    It Will Never Be a Good Time to Buy a House” by Annie Lowrey

    Book Recommendations:

    Franchise by Marcia Chatelain

    A Place of Greater Safety by Hilary Mantel

    Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 07, 2024

    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump

    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump

    After Donald Trump was convicted last week in his hush-money trial, Republican leaders wasted no time in rallying behind him. There was no chance the Republican Party was going to replace Trump as their nominee at this point. Trump has essentially taken over the G.O.P.; his daughter-in-law is even co-chair of the Republican National Committee.

    How did the Republican Party get so weak that it could fall victim to a hostile takeover?

    Daniel Schlozman and Sam Rosenfeld are the authors of “The Hollow Parties: The Many Pasts and Disordered Present of American Party Politics,” which traces how both major political parties have been “hollowed out” over the decades, transforming once-powerful gatekeeping institutions into mere vessels for the ideologies of specific candidates. And they argue that this change has been perilous for our democracy.

    In this conversation, we discuss how the power of the parties has been gradually chipped away; why the Republican Party became less ideological and more geared around conflict; the merits of a stronger party system; and more.

    Mentioned:

    Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden” by The Ezra Klein Show

    Here’s How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work” by The Ezra Klein Show with Elaine Kamarck

    Book Recommendations:

    The Two Faces of American Freedom by Aziz Rana

    Rainbow’s End by Steven P. Erie

    An American Melodrama by Lewis Chester, Godfrey Hodgson, Bruce Page

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show’‘ was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker, Kate Sinclair and Rollin Hu. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 04, 2024

    Your Mind Is Being Fracked

    Your Mind Is Being Fracked

    The steady dings of notifications. The 40 tabs that greet you when you open your computer in the morning. The hundreds of unread emails, most of them spam, with subject lines pleading or screaming for you to click. Our attention is under assault these days, and most of us are familiar with the feeling that gives us — fractured, irritated, overwhelmed.

    D. Graham Burnett calls the attention economy an example of “human fracking”: With our attention in shorter and shorter supply, companies are going to even greater lengths to extract this precious resource from us. And he argues that it’s now reached a point that calls for a kind of revolution. “This is creating conditions that are at odds with human flourishing. We know this,” he tells me. “And we need to mount new forms of resistance.”

    Burnett is a professor of the history of science at Princeton University and is working on a book about the laboratory study of attention. He’s also a co-founder of the Strother School of Radical Attention, which is a kind of grass roots, artistic effort to create a curriculum for studying attention.

    In this conversation, we talk about how the 20th-century study of attention laid the groundwork for today’s attention economy, the connection between changing ideas of attention and changing ideas of the self, how we even define attention (this episode is worth listening to for Burnett’s collection of beautiful metaphors alone), whether the concern over our shrinking attention spans is simply a moral panic, what it means to teach attention and more.

    Mentioned:

    Friends of Attention

    The Battle for Attention” by Nathan Heller

    Powerful Forces Are Fracking Our Attention. We Can Fight Back.” by D. Graham Burnett, Alyssa Loh and Peter Schmidt

    Scenes of Attention edited by D. Graham Burnett and Justin E. H. Smith

    Book Recommendations:

    Addiction by Design by Natasha Dow Schüll

    Objectivity by Lorraine Daston and Peter L. Galison

    The Confidence-Man by Herman Melville

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Elias Isquith. Original music by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 31, 2024

    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    A.I.-generated art has flooded the internet, and a lot of it is derivative, even boring or offensive. But what could it look like for artists to collaborate with A.I. systems in making art that is actually generative, challenging, transcendent?

    Holly Herndon offered one answer with her 2019 album “PROTO.” Along with Mathew Dryhurst and the programmer Jules LaPlace, she built an A.I. called “Spawn” trained on human voices that adds an uncanny yet oddly personal layer to the music. Beyond her music and visual art, Herndon is trying to solve a problem that many creative people are encountering as A.I. becomes more prominent: How do you encourage experimentation without stealing others’ work to train A.I. models? Along with Dryhurst, Jordan Meyer and Patrick Hoepner, she co-founded Spawning, a company figuring out how to allow artists — and all of us creating content on the internet — to “consent” to our work being used as training data.

    In this conversation, we discuss how Herndon collaborated with a human chorus and her “A.I. baby,” Spawn, on “PROTO”; how A.I. voice imitators grew out of electronic music and other musical genres; why Herndon prefers the term “collective intelligence” to “artificial intelligence”; why an “opt-in” model could help us retain more control of our work as A.I. trawls the internet for data; and much more.

    Mentioned:

    Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt” by Holly Herndon

    xhairymutantx” by Holly Herndon and Mat Dryhurst, for the Whitney Museum of Art

    Fade” by Holly Herndon

    Swim” by Holly Herndon

    Jolene” by Holly Herndon and Holly+

    Movement” by Holly Herndon

    Chorus” by Holly Herndon

    Godmother” by Holly Herndon

    The Precision of Infinity” by Jlin and Philip Glass

    Holly+

    Book Recommendations:

    Intelligence and Spirit by Reza Negarestani

    Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky

    Plurality by E. Glen Weyl, Audrey Tang and ⿻ Community

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Jack Hamilton.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 24, 2024

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