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    • The elusive nature of timeDespite our perception of time as constant, its true meaning and nature remain a mystery, even in a universe undergoing change

      Time, though seemingly fundamental to our experience, remains a profound mystery to scientists and philosophers alike. While we perceive time as a constant, measurable entity, it may not hold the same meaning outside of our consciousness. The universe, as Neil deGrasse Tyson once mused, is under no obligation to make sense to us, and time may be no exception. Time can be defined as the passage of events or the measurement of change, but its true nature remains elusive. Even in a universe devoid of life, time would still exist as the universe undergoes change. However, the subjective experience of time, as we know it, would not. Time, much like the universe itself, continues to be an uncharted territory, full of intrigue and wonder.

    • Our understanding of time remains elusive despite our ability to conceptualize itHumans have the ability to conceptualize time, but our understanding of its fundamental nature is limited. Our brains evolved to predict and create the future based on past experiences, crucial for survival and evolution.

      While humans have the unique ability to conceptualize and represent time, which sets us apart from other animals, our understanding of time, including its fundamental nature, remains elusive. The human brain did not evolve to fully grasp the concept of time or the universe's fundamental nature. Instead, we evolved to anticipate and interact with the world around us using our past experiences to predict and create the future. This ability to predict and create the future has been crucial for our survival and evolution, as seen in the development of agriculture. However, despite our ability to conceptualize time, we continue to struggle to define and understand it. The brain is a limited information processing system, and an awareness of its limitations is essential for both scientific exploration and daily life.

    • Understanding the human ability to conceptualize cause and effect across long periods of timeOur unique cognitive ability to mentally travel through time and form memories has shaped human history and culture, allowing for advanced planning and resource management.

      The human ability to conceptualize cause and effect across long periods of time, often referred to as mental time travel, is a defining cognitive signature of our species. This ability allowed us to invent agriculture and engage in advanced tool use, as we can plan and store resources for future use. Time and memory are closely linked, and our perception of time can vary between the present (prospective timing) and the past (retrospective timing). During the acute stages of an experience, time may seem to pass quickly, but looking back, it can seem to have gone by much faster due to the number of memories formed. Conversely, individuals with severe amnesia, who cannot form new memories, are essentially trapped in the present. The way we experience time can also shift depending on our experiences, with less happening seeming to pass more quickly. Overall, our cognitive abilities, particularly our capacity for mental time travel and memory, have played a crucial role in shaping human history and culture.

    • Our perception of time passing is influenced by various factorsOur emotional state, circadian rhythms, and cognitive engagement impact how quickly we perceive time to pass. During deep engagement, our neural circuitry is heavily devoted to the task, making time seem to fly by.

      Our subjective experience of time passing can be influenced by various factors, including our emotional state, circadian rhythms, and cognitive engagement. When we're bored or isolated, time seems to pass more slowly, while during moments of excitement or deep engagement in a task, time seems to fly by. This phenomenon is related to the different clocks in our brain that regulate various timescales, such as the circadian clock and the clocks responsible for timing short intervals. The feeling of time passing slowly or quickly is a part of our conscious experiences, and understanding consciousness is key to addressing what causes these distortions. During moments of deep engagement, a large part of our neural circuitry is devoted to the task at hand, resulting in a rewarding and focused cognitive state. However, the exact causes of these distortions remain a mystery in neuroscience.

    • Perception of Time During Life-Threatening EventsOur perception of time can be distorted during life-threatening situations, leading to the illusion of time slowing down or even memory enhancement. Historically, accurate time measurement has led to societal advancements, including mass production during the Industrial Revolution.

      Our subjective experience of time during life-threatening situations, such as car crashes or skiing accidents, has been a topic of scientific research and debate. Some people report time slowing down or even experiencing a "flash memory" of the event. While some theories suggest this could be due to the brain functioning at a higher speed, it's more likely an illusion or memory enhancement. The obsession with measuring time throughout history has led to the creation of increasingly accurate clocks, which have significantly impacted society and culture. For instance, the availability of affordable clocks during the Industrial Revolution allowed for more synchronized work hours and contributed to the success of mass production. Today, time is even used to define space. However, the subjective nature of time means that our perception of it can be distorted, leading to the common report of time slowing down during near-death experiences.

    • The Impact of Clocks on Human CivilizationClocks have shaped our society, but constant exposure to schedules and precise timekeeping may limit our ability to absorb information and reflect upon it, potentially constraining our sense of free will.

      Clocks have significantly impacted human civilization, from synchronizing train schedules to advancing technologies like computer and GPS. However, there are potential downsides to the dominance of clocks. Some argue that constant exposure to schedules and precise timekeeping can limit our ability to absorb information and reflect upon it, and may even constrain our sense of free will. The use of technology, including clocks, is not inherently good or bad, but rather depends on how we choose to use it. Some people may find that being constantly "clocked in" to their schedules keeps them focused on the future and detracts from their ability to fully experience the present. Others may value the structure and precision that clocks provide. Ultimately, the impact of clocks on our lives is a complex issue that invites further reflection and consideration.

    • Living in the Present and Preparing for the FutureUnderstanding the balance between living in the present and preparing for the future, whether through presentism or eternalism, is essential for effective time management and a fulfilling life.

      While living in the present and focusing on the moment is important, it's also crucial to prepare for the future. This balance between present and future can be challenging for humans, who have the unique ability to engage in mental time travel. The discussion touched upon the contrasting theories of time, presentism, and eternalism. Presentism, the commonly held belief that the present is the only real moment, is intuitive but incomplete. Eternalism, on the other hand, proposes that all moments, past, present, and future, exist simultaneously. Although counterintuitive, eternalism has gained more acceptance in scientific and philosophical circles. Ultimately, our ability to navigate time effectively and make the most of our lives involves striking a balance between living in the present and preparing for the future.

    • The past, present, and future all coexist in eternalismEternalism, a philosophical and scientific view, holds that the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously, challenging our intuition that the future is not set until we make choices.

      According to the philosophical and scientific viewpoint called eternalism, the past, present, and future all coexist and are equally real. This idea challenges our intuition that the future is not set until we make choices that change it. The laws of physics don't favor the present moment over any other, and Einstein's theory of relativity supports the idea that time is relative and can be spatialized. This perspective allows for the possibility of time travel, which is a popular theme in science fiction. Despite some debates, eternalism is a widely accepted view among philosophers and physicists due to these reasons. However, it creates an intriguing tension with our everyday experience of time, which is connected to memory and the application of past knowledge to the present to shape the future.

    • The Debate Between Presentism and Eternalism in PhysicsPresentism aligns with our intuitive experience of time passing and our ability to change the future, while eternalism challenges the notion of free will and raises philosophical implications. Long-term thinking is essential for survival, but present-oriented cultures may not prioritize it.

      The debate between presentism and eternalism in physics raises questions about the nature of time and our ability to change the future. Presentism, the view that only the present moment exists, aligns with our intuitive experience of time passing and our ability to make decisions that shape the future. Eternalism, the idea that the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously, challenges the notion of free will and raises philosophical implications. A study on the Pidaha people in the Amazon suggests that present-oriented cultures may not prioritize long-term planning, but for most of us, long-term thinking is essential for survival. Ultimately, the debate highlights the profound impact of our relationship with time on our perception of reality and our ability to shape the future.

    • The challenge of delaying gratification due to our present biasThrough practice and discipline, we can overcome our present bias and improve our ability to think and act for long-term goals, leading to a longer, more fulfilling life.

      Our present bias, rooted in human evolution, makes it challenging for us to delay gratification and think long-term. This bias, which favors immediate rewards over future gains, is a result of our ancestors' unpredictable environments where planning for the future was often futile. However, with practice and discipline, we can improve our ability to think and act in a future-oriented way. This can be achieved through exercises such as visualizing our future selves and the benefits of saving or studying for long-term goals. The marshmallow test is an example of this, where children who delayed gratification correlated with future academic success. Ultimately, living a life that feels longer can be achieved by practicing long-term thinking and planning, despite the present bias that is inherent in us.

    • Understanding the impact of time on our experiencesEngaging deeply in novel and diverse experiences can improve memory and perception of a well-lived life, while being present-focused doesn't always mean being aware of time passing. Books like 'Noise', 'Thinking, Fast and Slow', and 'Flow' offer insights into human decision-making, time perception, and the importance of being fully present.

      The way we use our time and our relationship with the present can significantly impact our memory and perception of our experiences. Novel and diverse experiences are more likely to be stored in memory, leading to a sense of a well-lived life. However, being present-focused doesn't necessarily mean being aware of the passage of time. In fact, engaging deeply in activities can make us less aware of it. The books "Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment" by Kahneman, Tversky, and Sunstein, "Thinking, Fast and Slow" also by Kahneman, and "Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience" by Csikszentmihalyi can provide further insights into the intricacies of human decision-making, time perception, and the importance of being fully engaged in the present moment.

    • Exploring the complexities of the world and AI's promise and dangersUnderstanding the limitations of human understanding and the need for continued exploration and dialogue as we navigate the complexities of our world, particularly in the realm of AI, is crucial for our future.

      The complexities of the world, whether in quantum mechanics or neuroscience, can challenge the limits of human understanding. A judge's decisions can be influenced by personal experiences, just as the founders of quantum mechanics grappled with the unpredictable nature of the universe at a quantum level. In the realm of AI, the potential societal promise and dangers require a thoughtful and informed response from humanity. The authors Henry Kissinger, Eric Schmidt, and Hutton Locker explore these themes in their book, "The Age of AI and Our Human Future." This discussion underscores the importance of recognizing the limitations of human understanding and the need for continued exploration and dialogue as we navigate the complexities of our world. The books discussed offer valuable insights into these areas and serve as reminders of the importance of staying curious and open-minded.

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    Trump’s Bold Vision for America: Higher Prices!

    Donald Trump has made inflation a central part of his campaign message. At his rallies, he rails against “the Biden inflation tax” and “crooked Joe’s inflation nightmare,” and promises that in a second Trump term, “inflation will be in full retreat.”

    But if you look at Trump’s actual policies, that wouldn’t be the case at all. Trump has a bold, ambitious agenda to make prices much, much higher. He’s proposing a 10 percent tariff on imported goods, and a 60 percent tariff on products from China. He wants to deport huge numbers of immigrants. And he’s made it clear that he’d like to replace the Federal Reserve chair with someone more willing to take orders from him. It’s almost unimaginable to me that you would run on this agenda at a time when Americans are so mad about high prices. But I don’t think people really know that’s what Trump is vowing to do.

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    Mentioned:

    Trump’s new economic plan is terrible” by Matthew Yglesias

    Never mind: Wall Street titans shake off qualms and embrace Trump” by Sam Sutton

    How Far Trump Would Go” by Eric Cortellessa

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    Take Back the Game by Linda Flanagan

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    The Rise of the G.I. Army, 1940-1941 by Paul Dickson

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    The Biggest Political Divide Is Not Left vs. Right

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    The biggest divide in our politics isn’t between Democrats and Republicans, or even left and right. It’s between people who follow politics closely, and those who pay almost no attention to it. If you’re in the former camp — and if you’re reading this, you probably are — the latter camp can seem inscrutable. These people hardly ever look at political news. They hate discussing politics. But they do care about issues and candidates, and they often vote.

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    What Goes Without Saying by Taylor N. Carlson and Jaime E. Settle

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    The View From the Israeli Right

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    On Tuesday I got back from an eight-day trip to Israel and the West Bank. I happened to be there on the day that Benny Gantz resigned from the war cabinet and called on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to schedule new elections, breaking the unity government that Israel had had since shortly after Oct. 7.

    There is no viable left wing in Israel right now. There is a coalition that Netanyahu leads stretching from right to far right and a coalition that Gantz leads stretching from center to right. In the early months of the war, Gantz appeared ascendant as support for Netanyahu cratered. But now Netanyahu’s poll numbers are ticking back up.

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    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

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    The Economic Theory That Explains Why Americans Are So Mad

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    There’s something weird happening with the economy. On a personal level, most Americans say they’re doing pretty well right now. And according to the data, that’s true. Wages have gone up faster than inflation. Unemployment is low, the stock market is generally up so far this year, and people are buying more stuff.

    And yet in surveys, people keep saying the economy is bad. A recent Harris poll for The Guardian found that around half of Americans think the S. & P. 500 is down this year, and that unemployment is at a 50-year high. Fifty-six percent think we’re in a recession.

    There are many theories about why this gap exists. Maybe political polarization is warping how people see the economy or it’s a failure of President Biden’s messaging, or there’s just something uniquely painful about inflation. And while there’s truth in all of these, it felt like a piece of the story was missing.

    And for me, that missing piece was an article I read right before the pandemic. An Atlantic story from February 2020 called “The Great Affordability Crisis Breaking America.” It described how some of Americans’ biggest-ticket expenses — housing, health care, higher education and child care — which were already pricey, had been getting steadily pricier for decades.

    At the time, prices weren’t the big topic in the economy; the focus was more on jobs and wages. So it was easier for this trend to slip notice, like a frog boiling in water, quietly, putting more and more strain on American budgets. But today, after years of high inflation, prices are the biggest topic in the economy. And I think that explains the anger people feel: They’re noticing the price of things all the time, and getting hammered with the reality of how expensive these things have become.

    The author of that Atlantic piece is Annie Lowrey. She’s an economics reporter, the author of Give People Money, and also my wife. In this conversation, we discuss how the affordability crisis has collided with our post-pandemic inflationary world, the forces that shape our economic perceptions, why people keep spending as if prices aren’t a strain and what this might mean for the presidential election.

    Mentioned:

    It Will Never Be a Good Time to Buy a House” by Annie Lowrey

    Book Recommendations:

    Franchise by Marcia Chatelain

    A Place of Greater Safety by Hilary Mantel

    Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

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    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump

    The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump

    After Donald Trump was convicted last week in his hush-money trial, Republican leaders wasted no time in rallying behind him. There was no chance the Republican Party was going to replace Trump as their nominee at this point. Trump has essentially taken over the G.O.P.; his daughter-in-law is even co-chair of the Republican National Committee.

    How did the Republican Party get so weak that it could fall victim to a hostile takeover?

    Daniel Schlozman and Sam Rosenfeld are the authors of “The Hollow Parties: The Many Pasts and Disordered Present of American Party Politics,” which traces how both major political parties have been “hollowed out” over the decades, transforming once-powerful gatekeeping institutions into mere vessels for the ideologies of specific candidates. And they argue that this change has been perilous for our democracy.

    In this conversation, we discuss how the power of the parties has been gradually chipped away; why the Republican Party became less ideological and more geared around conflict; the merits of a stronger party system; and more.

    Mentioned:

    Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden” by The Ezra Klein Show

    Here’s How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work” by The Ezra Klein Show with Elaine Kamarck

    Book Recommendations:

    The Two Faces of American Freedom by Aziz Rana

    Rainbow’s End by Steven P. Erie

    An American Melodrama by Lewis Chester, Godfrey Hodgson, Bruce Page

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show’‘ was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker, Kate Sinclair and Rollin Hu. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enJune 04, 2024

    Your Mind Is Being Fracked

    Your Mind Is Being Fracked

    The steady dings of notifications. The 40 tabs that greet you when you open your computer in the morning. The hundreds of unread emails, most of them spam, with subject lines pleading or screaming for you to click. Our attention is under assault these days, and most of us are familiar with the feeling that gives us — fractured, irritated, overwhelmed.

    D. Graham Burnett calls the attention economy an example of “human fracking”: With our attention in shorter and shorter supply, companies are going to even greater lengths to extract this precious resource from us. And he argues that it’s now reached a point that calls for a kind of revolution. “This is creating conditions that are at odds with human flourishing. We know this,” he tells me. “And we need to mount new forms of resistance.”

    Burnett is a professor of the history of science at Princeton University and is working on a book about the laboratory study of attention. He’s also a co-founder of the Strother School of Radical Attention, which is a kind of grass roots, artistic effort to create a curriculum for studying attention.

    In this conversation, we talk about how the 20th-century study of attention laid the groundwork for today’s attention economy, the connection between changing ideas of attention and changing ideas of the self, how we even define attention (this episode is worth listening to for Burnett’s collection of beautiful metaphors alone), whether the concern over our shrinking attention spans is simply a moral panic, what it means to teach attention and more.

    Mentioned:

    Friends of Attention

    The Battle for Attention” by Nathan Heller

    Powerful Forces Are Fracking Our Attention. We Can Fight Back.” by D. Graham Burnett, Alyssa Loh and Peter Schmidt

    Scenes of Attention edited by D. Graham Burnett and Justin E. H. Smith

    Book Recommendations:

    Addiction by Design by Natasha Dow Schüll

    Objectivity by Lorraine Daston and Peter L. Galison

    The Confidence-Man by Herman Melville

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Elias Isquith. Original music by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 31, 2024

    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    ‘Artificial Intelligence?’ No, Collective Intelligence.

    A.I.-generated art has flooded the internet, and a lot of it is derivative, even boring or offensive. But what could it look like for artists to collaborate with A.I. systems in making art that is actually generative, challenging, transcendent?

    Holly Herndon offered one answer with her 2019 album “PROTO.” Along with Mathew Dryhurst and the programmer Jules LaPlace, she built an A.I. called “Spawn” trained on human voices that adds an uncanny yet oddly personal layer to the music. Beyond her music and visual art, Herndon is trying to solve a problem that many creative people are encountering as A.I. becomes more prominent: How do you encourage experimentation without stealing others’ work to train A.I. models? Along with Dryhurst, Jordan Meyer and Patrick Hoepner, she co-founded Spawning, a company figuring out how to allow artists — and all of us creating content on the internet — to “consent” to our work being used as training data.

    In this conversation, we discuss how Herndon collaborated with a human chorus and her “A.I. baby,” Spawn, on “PROTO”; how A.I. voice imitators grew out of electronic music and other musical genres; why Herndon prefers the term “collective intelligence” to “artificial intelligence”; why an “opt-in” model could help us retain more control of our work as A.I. trawls the internet for data; and much more.

    Mentioned:

    Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt” by Holly Herndon

    xhairymutantx” by Holly Herndon and Mat Dryhurst, for the Whitney Museum of Art

    Fade” by Holly Herndon

    Swim” by Holly Herndon

    Jolene” by Holly Herndon and Holly+

    Movement” by Holly Herndon

    Chorus” by Holly Herndon

    Godmother” by Holly Herndon

    The Precision of Infinity” by Jlin and Philip Glass

    Holly+

    Book Recommendations:

    Intelligence and Spirit by Reza Negarestani

    Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky

    Plurality by E. Glen Weyl, Audrey Tang and ⿻ Community

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Jack Hamilton.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 24, 2024

    A Conservative Futurist and a Supply-Side Liberal Walk Into a Podcast …

    A Conservative Futurist and a Supply-Side Liberal Walk Into a Podcast …

    “The Jetsons” premiered in 1962. And based on the internal math of the show, George Jetson, the dad, was born in 2022. He’d be a toddler right now. And we are so far away from the world that show imagined. There were a lot of future-trippers in the 1960s, and most of them would be pretty disappointed by how that future turned out.

    So what happened? Why didn’t we build that future?

    The answer, I think, lies in the 1970s. I’ve been spending a lot of time studying that decade in my work, trying to understand why America is so bad at building today. And James Pethokoukis has also spent a lot of time looking at the 1970s, in his work trying to understand why America is less innovative today than it was in the postwar decades. So Pethokoukis and I are asking similar questions, and circling the same time period, but from very different ideological vantages.

    Pethokoukis is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, and author of the book “The Conservative Futurist: How to Create the Sci-Fi World We Were Promised.” He also writes a newsletter called Faster, Please! “The two screamingly obvious things that we stopped doing is we stopped spending on science, research and development the way we did in the 1960s,” he tells me, “and we began to regulate our economy as if regulation would have no impact on innovation.”

    In this conversation, we debate why the ’70s were such an inflection point; whether this slowdown phenomenon is just something that happens as countries get wealthier; and what the government’s role should be in supporting and regulating emerging technologies like A.I.

    Mentioned:

    U.S. Infrastructure: 1929-2017” by Ray C. Fair

    Book Recommendations

    Why Information Grows by Cesar Hidalgo

    The Expanse series by James S.A. Corey

    The American Dream Is Not Dead by Michael R. Strain

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 21, 2024

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