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    Sanctioning Russia Is a Form of War. We Need to Treat It Like One.

    enApril 01, 2022

    Podcast Summary

    • Understanding Sanctions as an Economic WeaponSanctions, initially viewed as an alternative to war, can have severe economic consequences including collapsing living standards, surging inflation, and a return to bartering for basic necessities.

      Sanctions, often seen as an alternative to war, have historically been understood as a total weapon with the power to affect a nation in its entirety. This understanding emerged after World War 1, when internationalists sought to find a means to prevent large-scale conflicts. Sanctions were initially viewed as a tool to impact a nation beyond its elite or military, leveraging the interconnected global economy. As Nick Mulder, author of "The Economic Weapon," explains, sanctions are a creation of the era of total war and were openly referred to as an "economic weapon." Despite the perception that sanctions may be less devastating than actual war, their impact can be severe. Countries subjected to sanctions can experience collapsing living standards, surging inflation, and a return to bartering for basic necessities. The historical context and lessons from the period between the world wars provide valuable insight into the potential consequences and implications of modern sanctions use.

    • Living in a Sanctioned Economy: Inflation on SteroidsSanctions cause massive supply chain disruptions leading to skyrocketing prices, severe shortages, and a constant state of anxiety for obtaining essential goods.

      Sanctions can have devastating effects on economies and people's livelihoods. They can lead to severe shortages of essential goods, skyrocketing inflation, and a crisis of the ability to obtain basic necessities. The experience of living in a sanctioned economy is akin to operating in an inflationary economy on steroids, with prices for food, medicine, and other necessities increasing dramatically. The dynamic of sanctions is that they create massive supply chain disruptions, causing prices to skyrocket and leaving people in a constant state of anxiety and insecurity. In extreme cases, rationing and the black market become necessary to obtain goods. The US economy, if subjected to similar sanctions, would experience a significant increase in inflation, potentially leading to widespread anxiety and a need to prioritize access to essential goods. Overall, sanctions can have far-reaching and profound impacts on the economies and people they affect.

    • Sanctions as a form of war by other meansSanctions aim to create economic shocks for political change but can lead to unrest, harm civilians, and raise ethical concerns.

      Sanctions, as a form of war by other means, can have devastating effects on civilians' standard of living and create significant moral dilemmas. The theory behind sanctions is to create economic shocks that lead to political change, but their implementation and effectiveness can vary greatly depending on the political context. In democratic countries, this change can occur through elections. However, in non-democratic or authoritarian regimes, the path to political change is more complex. Sanctions can lead to widespread unrest and potential riots, which may force governments to reconsider their actions. Yet, the human cost of sanctions is significant and raises ethical concerns, particularly when they inflict harm on civilians. The ease of imposing sanctions belies the moral complexities and potential harm they can cause.

    • Understanding the Complexity and Success Rate of SanctionsSanctions are a tool used to influence behavior, but their success rate varies from 10-30%. Deterrence has shown some success, while compelling policy change is more challenging. Unintended consequences can impact civilians.

      Sanctions are a complex tool used in international relations with varying degrees of success. Sanctions are designed to influence the behavior of governments or regimes by targeting specific entities or industries. There are different theories on how sanctions can be effective, including targeting business elites, deterring potential aggressors, and compelling countries to change policies. Historically, studies suggest that sanctions are successful in achieving their goals around 10-30% of the time. However, the success rate depends on the specific goal. Deterrence, which aims to prevent future actions, has shown some success, while compelling countries to change existing policies is more challenging. It's important to note that sanctions often have unintended consequences, particularly on civilians, who bear the brunt of the economic pain. Currently, sanctions are being used against Russia, with the goal of deterring and compelling Putin to stop his invasion of Ukraine. The effectiveness of these sanctions remains to be seen.

    • Historic moment in global economic history: Russia sanctionsRussia's economy faces severe consequences from sanctions, including currency collapse, foreign investment exit, inflation, brain drain, and essential imports scarcity, questioning their long-term effectiveness

      The ongoing sanctions against Russia mark a significant moment in global economic history due to the large number of countries involved, the size of the affected economy, and the intensity of the measures taken. The immediate impact on the Russian economy was severe, with the ruble collapsing, foreign investment leaving, and inflation rising. Long-term effects include a loss of access to foreign goods, a brain drain, and the departure of foreign workers. Despite some short-term stabilization efforts, the overall impact on the Russian economy has been severe, with growth prospects shortened and essential imports becoming scarce. The sanctions' dissonance, causing economic pain without achieving desired outcomes, should make us reconsider their use moving forward.

    • Impact of Sanctions on Russian Economy and People's LivesSanctions have led to a significant reduction in Russian GDP, causing shortages of consumption goods, impaired access to medicine, and job losses. The debate over lifting or keeping sanctions raises questions about their ultimate goal and long-term impact.

      The sanctions imposed on Russia following its invasion of Ukraine have had a profound impact on the Russian economy and people's daily lives. The realistic estimates suggest a significant reduction in Russian GDP, with at least 15% loss this year. The language used to describe the financial war often masks the brutal reality, which includes shortages of consumption goods, impaired access to medicine, and job losses. Moscow views the sanctions as illegitimate and seeks to play them down, questioning whether they are aimed at ending the war or causing regime change. Western governments are debating whether to lift sanctions if the war ends or keep them in place indefinitely. The ongoing debate raises questions about the ultimate goal of the sanctions and whether the Western population would accept a future without them.

    • Sanctions' unpredictable outcomesSanctions' impact on a country is complex and uncertain, with potential for self-sufficiency, territorial expansion, or societal upheaval

      The impact of sanctions on a country is unpredictable due to the complex web of political, economic, and societal factors involved. History, such as the response of Germany and Japan to Western sanctions in the 1930s, shows that larger countries with significant industrial power can turn inward, become more self-sufficient, and even conquer territory instead of backing down. Putin's initial response to Russia's sanctions was raising the nuclear alert level, highlighting the potential unpredictability of sanctions' outcomes. The use of sanctions as a weapon should not be underestimated, as the layers between imposition and political outcome involve entire societies and economies, making the consequences uncertain.

    • Economic sanctions led Japan to declare warSanctions on resources and assets weakened Japan's economy and military, forcing expansion in WW2

      Economic sanctions imposed by the United States and its allies played a significant role in leading Japan to declare war on the Allies in 1941. FDR's embargoes on key resources such as oil, iron ore, scrap metal, and aviation fuel, coupled with the freezing of Japanese assets, left Japan's economy and military severely weakened. Despite not being officially at war, Japan saw no other option but to expand its territories in Southeast Asia to secure the resources it desperately needed. However, it's important to note that the situation in Ukraine and Russia today is complex, and the effectiveness of sanctions in deescalating the conflict is still uncertain. While sanctions may be creating a long-term picture of economic hardship for Russia, military actions on the ground continue to dominate the situation. Ultimately, the impact of sanctions on Putin's decision-making remains unclear, but they may serve as leverage for negotiating a settlement.

    • Sanctions and diplomacy: Pressure and concessionsEffective diplomacy with sanctions requires a balance of pressure and concessions, as seen in the Iran nuclear deal. Success depends on both parties' compliance and commitment to peace.

      Effective use of sanctions in diplomacy requires a combination of pressure and concessions from both sides. The Iran nuclear deal serves as an example, where sanctions were lifted in exchange for Iran's commitment to giving up its nuclear weapons program and allowing IAEA inspections. However, the success of this approach hinges on both parties' ability to keep their promises and maintain compliance. The challenge lies in the symbolic significance of sanctions as a representation of Western values in conflicts like the Russo-Ukrainian war. While making concessions may be strategically wise, it's essential to consider the potential political implications and the long-term commitment to maintaining the peace.

    • Focus on economic sanctions in Western response to Russia-Ukraine conflictSanctions may create a dangerous dynamic, pushing for more punishment and overlooking diplomatic solutions, with potential unintended consequences such as Russia lashing out.

      The Western response to the Russia-Ukraine conflict has largely focused on economic sanctions due to the commitment to maintaining pressure and the reluctance to engage in direct military confrontation. However, this reliance on sanctions may create a dangerous dynamic, as public opinion pushes for further punishment and the desire for a diplomatic solution is overlooked. The potential for unintended consequences, such as Russia lashing out in response to sanctions, is a concern that should be carefully considered before implementing more aggressive measures. Instead, a comprehensive approach that utilizes all available tools, including diplomacy, military support, and economic pressure, is necessary to effectively address the crisis.

    • Risk of escalation in Russia-Ukraine conflict still existsThe conflict between Russia and Ukraine could persist for a long time, increasing the risk of escalation. Sanctions could limit Russia's ability to earn foreign currency, but countries like India and China could provide a lifeline. Regime change through sanctions is unlikely in the short term.

      While the risk of escalation in the Russia-Ukraine conflict is lower than during World War II, it still exists and is a serious concern. The conflict could persist for a long time, increasing the risk of escalation. Russia's economy relies heavily on oil and gas exports, and sanctions could limit its ability to earn foreign currency, making it difficult for Russia to import essential goods. However, countries like India and China, which are not part of the Western sanctions, could provide a lifeline for Russia. Regarding regime change through sanctions, it is unlikely in the short term due to Russia's repression of political opposition and the resulting weakening of potential opposition forces. The conflict's impact on the rest of the world will be discussed next.

    • Russia's Political Economy under Putin: A Sultanistic OligarchyPutin's control over Russian oligarchs and foreign policy has led to significant losses for them, while global impacts of the Russia-Ukraine conflict include food price increases and potential instability in the Global South.

      Russia's political economy under Putin can be characterized as a sultanistic oligarchy, where the wealthy are protected by the state but must accept the control of Putin and his security elites over foreign policy and state affairs. This dynamic has led to significant losses for Russian oligarchs, who have limited avenues to voice opposition. The global impact of the Russia-Ukraine conflict and resulting sanctions extends beyond these countries, affecting commodity markets and leading to food price increases. The war's closure of Ukrainian ports and sanctions on Russian exports have combined to reduce the global food supply, potentially leading to food price spikes and political instability in the Global South, as seen in previous crises in 2008 and 2011.

    • Geopolitical tensions and sanctions in the global economy could lead to severe consequences in the global southHistorical parallels from the interwar period show that globalization is fragile and requires cooperation to mitigate risks of food crises, political instability, and economic volatility. Collaboration on global issues like climate change, inequality, and international cooperation is essential, along with open communication with all countries.

      The ongoing geopolitical tensions and resulting sanctions in a complex globalized world economy could have severe unintended consequences, particularly in the global south. These consequences include food crises, political instability, and economic volatility. Historical parallels from the interwar period suggest that globalization is fragile and requires cooperation to stabilize it. The interwar period also warns us of the dangers of mistrust and the potential for illiberal routes. To mitigate these risks, there is a need for concerted efforts to collaborate on global issues like climate change, inequality, and international cooperation. Keeping open lines of communication with all countries, even those with differing values, could be crucial for global stability. The current global environment calls for courage, confidence, and the will to create new institutions and treaties to address these challenges.

    • Prioritize where to criticize, compete, and impose sanctions vs. collaborate on global issuesSanctions on certain countries like Venezuela, Syria, and Afghanistan have had dismal outcomes, causing severe economic hardships and human suffering, and it's essential to weigh their efficacy against the consequences.

      Despite ideological differences between countries, it's essential to prioritize where to criticize, compete, and impose sanctions, and where to preserve and collaborate on global issues. The US currently imposes sanctions on several countries, including Iran, Venezuela, North Korea, and Syria. The cases of Venezuela and Syria, in particular, illustrate the dismal outcomes of such policies, as sanctions have failed to remove authoritarian leaders and have caused severe economic hardships for the populations. A notable example is Afghanistan, where US sanctions have contributed to a humanitarian crisis, with 95% of the population at risk of starvation. It's crucial to weigh the efficacy of sanctions against the economic and human suffering they inflict.

    • Exploring Alternatives to Economic Sanctions in AfghanistanSanctions on Afghanistan have devastating effects on civilians, raising ethical concerns. Aiding victims instead of just sanctioning could reduce instability and potentially prevent extremism.

      The economic sanctions imposed on Afghanistan have devastating effects on a large population despite the country's small GDP. The freezing of Afghanistan's foreign reserves, while providing some humanitarian aid and compensation to 9/11 victims, raises ethical concerns and risks recreating the very conditions that led to the growth of extremist groups in the first place. Instead of relying solely on sanctions or military intervention, there is a need to explore alternatives or better ways to design sanctions to minimize their devastating impact on civilian populations. Looking to history, the interwar period saw the concept of positively weaponizing the economy by pooling resources and providing aid to victims of aggression, which could potentially reduce geopolitical instability and even have war-reducing effects. Therefore, complementing the use of sanctions with economic and financial aid could make the reasons for good behavior more compelling and help rebuild societies after economic warfare.

    • Understanding the aftermath of sanctionsSanctions can lead to corruption, damage social fabric, institutions, and economic activity. Post-sanctions reconstruction poses challenges for both affected countries and the international private sector.

      The aftermath of sanctions on countries can lead to significant problems, including corruption, damage to social fabric, institutions, and economic activity. These issues present challenges not only for the affected countries but also for the international private sector in terms of post-sanctions reconstruction. Nick Mulder's book, "The Economic Weapon," provides valuable insights into understanding the economic implications of sanctions. Three other recommended books include Vladislav Zubok's "Collapse" for context on the historical tensions between Russia and Ukraine, Victoria de Grazia's "The Perfect Fascist" for a deeper understanding of life under fascism, and Alexander Wat's "My Century" for a firsthand account of survival during tumultuous times. Overall, these books offer perspectives on how to navigate complex international crises and the impact on ordinary people.

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    A.I.-generated art has flooded the internet, and a lot of it is derivative, even boring or offensive. But what could it look like for artists to collaborate with A.I. systems in making art that is actually generative, challenging, transcendent?

    Holly Herndon offered one answer with her 2019 album “PROTO.” Along with Mathew Dryhurst and the programmer Jules LaPlace, she built an A.I. called “Spawn” trained on human voices that adds an uncanny yet oddly personal layer to the music. Beyond her music and visual art, Herndon is trying to solve a problem that many creative people are encountering as A.I. becomes more prominent: How do you encourage experimentation without stealing others’ work to train A.I. models? Along with Dryhurst, Jordan Meyer and Patrick Hoepner, she co-founded Spawning, a company figuring out how to allow artists — and all of us creating content on the internet — to “consent” to our work being used as training data.

    In this conversation, we discuss how Herndon collaborated with a human chorus and her “A.I. baby,” Spawn, on “PROTO”; how A.I. voice imitators grew out of electronic music and other musical genres; why Herndon prefers the term “collective intelligence” to “artificial intelligence”; why an “opt-in” model could help us retain more control of our work as A.I. trawls the internet for data; and much more.

    Mentioned:

    Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt” by Holly Herndon

    xhairymutantx” by Holly Herndon and Mat Dryhurst, for the Whitney Museum of Art

    Fade” by Holly Herndon

    Swim” by Holly Herndon

    Jolene” by Holly Herndon and Holly+

    Movement” by Holly Herndon

    Chorus” by Holly Herndon

    Godmother” by Holly Herndon

    The Precision of Infinity” by Jlin and Philip Glass

    Holly+

    Book Recommendations:

    Intelligence and Spirit by Reza Negarestani

    Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky

    Plurality by E. Glen Weyl, Audrey Tang and ⿻ Community

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Jack Hamilton.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 24, 2024

    A Conservative Futurist and a Supply-Side Liberal Walk Into a Podcast …

    A Conservative Futurist and a Supply-Side Liberal Walk Into a Podcast …

    “The Jetsons” premiered in 1962. And based on the internal math of the show, George Jetson, the dad, was born in 2022. He’d be a toddler right now. And we are so far away from the world that show imagined. There were a lot of future-trippers in the 1960s, and most of them would be pretty disappointed by how that future turned out.

    So what happened? Why didn’t we build that future?

    The answer, I think, lies in the 1970s. I’ve been spending a lot of time studying that decade in my work, trying to understand why America is so bad at building today. And James Pethokoukis has also spent a lot of time looking at the 1970s, in his work trying to understand why America is less innovative today than it was in the postwar decades. So Pethokoukis and I are asking similar questions, and circling the same time period, but from very different ideological vantages.

    Pethokoukis is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, and author of the book “The Conservative Futurist: How to Create the Sci-Fi World We Were Promised.” He also writes a newsletter called Faster, Please! “The two screamingly obvious things that we stopped doing is we stopped spending on science, research and development the way we did in the 1960s,” he tells me, “and we began to regulate our economy as if regulation would have no impact on innovation.”

    In this conversation, we debate why the ’70s were such an inflection point; whether this slowdown phenomenon is just something that happens as countries get wealthier; and what the government’s role should be in supporting and regulating emerging technologies like A.I.

    Mentioned:

    U.S. Infrastructure: 1929-2017” by Ray C. Fair

    Book Recommendations

    Why Information Grows by Cesar Hidalgo

    The Expanse series by James S.A. Corey

    The American Dream Is Not Dead by Michael R. Strain

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 21, 2024

    The Disastrous Relationship Between Israel, Palestinians and the U.N.

    The Disastrous Relationship Between Israel, Palestinians and the U.N.

    The international legal system was created to prevent the atrocities of World War II from happening again. The United Nations partitioned historic Palestine to create the states of Israel and Palestine, but also left Palestinians with decades of false promises. The war in Gaza — and countless other conflicts, including those in Syria, Yemen and Ethiopia — shows how little power the U.N. and international law have to protect civilians in wartime. So what is international law actually for?

    Aslı Ü. Bâli is a professor at Yale Law School who specializes in international and comparative law. “The fact that people break the law and sometimes get away with it doesn’t mean the law doesn’t exist and doesn’t have force,” she argues.

    In this conversation, Bâli traces the gap between how international law is written on paper and the realpolitik of how countries decide to follow it, the U.N.’s unique role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from its very beginning, how the laws of war have failed Gazans but may be starting to change the conflict’s course, and more.

    Mentioned:

    With Schools in Ruins, Education in Gaza Will Be Hobbled for Years” by Liam Stack and Bilal Shbair

    Book Recommendations:

    Imperialism, Sovereignty and the Making of International Law by Antony Anghie

    Justice for Some by Noura Erakat

    Worldmaking After Empire by Adom Getachew

    The Constitutional Bind by Aziz Rana

    The United Nations and the Question of Palestine by Ardi Imseis

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Carole Sabouraud.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 17, 2024

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    Christine McDaniel on the Russia Sanctions and Their Impact on Globalization and the Russian Economy

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    Christine McDaniel is a senior research fellow at the Mercatus Center where she focuses on trade and intellectual property rights issues. Christine previously held several positions in the US government, including deputy assistant secretary at the Treasury Department and senior trade economist in the White House Council of Economic Advisors. She has also worked in the economic offices of the US Department of Commerce, US Trade Representative, and the US International Trade Commission. Christine rejoins Macro Musings to talk about the economic sanctions applied to Russia, and their implication for the Russian economy and globalization more generally. Specifically, David and Christine also discuss the structure and effectiveness of the Russia sanctions, the war’s heavy impact on food shortages, the role of dollar dominance in geopolitics, and more.

     

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    Can the West Stop Russia by Strangling its Economy?

    There’s the Russia-Ukraine war that’s easy to follow in the news right now. We can watch Russian bombs falling on Ukraine, see Russian tanks smoking on the side of the road, hear from Ukrainian resistance fighters livestreaming their desperate defense.

    But there’s another theater to this war that’s harder to see, but may well decide the outcome: the economic war that West is waging on Russia. Europe and the United States initially responded with a limited set of sanctions but then expanded them into a counterattack capable of crushing the Russian economy. Vladimir Putin, for one, understands the danger: As the force of the West’s measures multiplied, he readied his nuclear forces in a bid to warn Europe and the United States off. This is terrifying territory.

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    Mentioned:

    “Putin’s Challenge to Western hegemony - the 2022 edition” by Adam Tooze (Chartbook)

    “The economic consequences of the war in Ukraine” (The Economist)

    Book Recommendations:

    The Economic Weapon by Nicholas Mulder

    The End of the End of History by Alex Hochuli, George Hoare and Philip Cunliffe

    The Future of Money by Eswar S. Prasad

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

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