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    The Debrief w/ Jocko and Dave Berke #17: Calculating How Often You Should Argue With The People Around You

    enMay 17, 2021

    Podcast Summary

    • Understanding the context and nature of a relationship before challenging authorityEffective communication and constructive feedback are crucial, but knowing when and how often to challenge authority requires understanding the unique dynamics of the relationship.

      Effective communication and constructive feedback are essential in any leadership role, but knowing when and how often to challenge authority is a delicate balance. In the Jocko Debrief podcast, Dave Burke and Jocko Willink discuss the importance of debriefing interactions with clients and sharing lessons learned. They recounted a situation where a client, Fred, was seeking advice on how often he should push back against his boss. The conversation revealed that Fred and his boss had a great working relationship, but Fred was unsure about the frequency and appropriateness of his pushback. The discussion emphasized the importance of understanding the context and nature of the relationship before deciding on the frequency and approach to challenging authority. The debrief also highlighted the benefits of open communication, continuous learning, and the importance of seeking advice from trusted sources when navigating complex interpersonal dynamics in the workplace.

    • Considering the risks before pushing backEvaluate potential risks and damage before opposing suggestions in professional settings, but don't never push back if necessary.

      It's important to evaluate the potential risks and consequences before pushing back against a suggestion, especially in a professional setting. However, it's not necessary to never push back, as there are times when it's essential. During a conversation about a proposed process in a company, Fred, who rarely pushes back against his boss, Mary, was asked about his frequency of doing so. Fred's answer was almost never, but this doesn't mean never. The key is to consider the potential risks and damage before voicing opposition. For instance, in a team meeting, if your colleague suggests a plan, and there's no significant risk or problem with it, it's usually best to go along with their suggestion. However, if the suggestion could lead to significant issues, it's important to voice your concerns. Using the analogy of navigation apps, if one app suggests a shorter route, but the other app indicates heavy traffic on that route, it's wise to consider the potential delay and choose the app with the fewer risks. Overall, the goal is to build a good working relationship while also considering the potential consequences of one's actions.

    • Weighing the Risks of Committing to the UnknownConsider potential risks and consequences before committing to the unknown, focus on what we can control, and be open to adjusting plans as new info emerges.

      It's important to carefully consider the value of committing to the unknown and investing leadership capital in uncertain situations. While it's natural to want to push for efficiency and achieve better outcomes, it's crucial to weigh the potential risks and consequences. Arguing and committing to the unknown can lead to wasted resources, decreased influence, and a reputation of being unreliable. Instead, focusing on what we can control and making informed decisions based on available information is a more effective approach. Additionally, being open to adjusting plans as new information emerges demonstrates adaptability and strengthens collaboration. Ultimately, being mindful of the potential risks and benefits of committing to the unknown can help us make more informed decisions and build stronger relationships.

    • Asking earnest questions for clarification and insightsAsking good questions challenges assumptions, identifies potential issues, and enhances overall outcome, fostering a culture of continuous learning and improvement.

      Effective communication and collaboration in a professional setting involves asking earnest questions to understand different perspectives and improve plans. The speaker emphasizes that pushing back against someone's ideas is not about being confrontational but about seeking clarification and gaining valuable insights. By asking questions, one can challenge assumptions, identify potential issues, and ultimately, enhance the overall outcome. The speaker's reputation for asking good questions positions them as a valuable contributor, leading to adjustments in plans and increased alignment among team members. This approach fosters a culture of continuous learning and improvement, rather than conflict or resistance.

    • Effective communication and understanding build resiliencyAsking questions and seeking clarification can help ensure a shared understanding of plans and goals, leading to a more resilient team.

      Effective communication and understanding are key components in building resiliency within a team. The speaker emphasized the importance of asking questions and seeking clarification to ensure a shared understanding of plans and goals. He shared an example from his military experience where some team members were more resilient than others during tough conditions. He attributed this to the idea of ownership and connection to the mission. The speaker suggested that while some people may be naturally more resilient, it's important for leaders to cultivate resiliency in their team members through clear communication and shared understanding. By asking questions and seeking clarification, leaders can help ensure that everyone is on the same page and working towards the same goals, ultimately leading to a more resilient and effective team.

    • Leadership's Impact on Team ResiliencyEffective leadership significantly increases team resiliency by giving individuals more control, influence, and ownership over plans or situations.

      While genetics and upbringing may contribute to an individual's natural resiliency, leadership plays a crucial role in building resiliency within a team. Those who have a greater sense of control, involvement, and ownership over a plan or situation are more likely to endure difficult circumstances. Conversely, those who are kept in the dark and have less influence or understanding of the plan are less resilient. Effective leadership can significantly impact a team's resiliency, as seen in the example of Marines with similar backgrounds and training but varying levels of resilience. Ultimately, building resiliency on a team involves giving individuals more control, influence, and ownership over the plan or situation. While some may have more natural resiliency than others, effective leadership can help all team members develop the capacity to endure difficult situations. The importance of leadership in building resiliency is likely 12 to 17 times more significant than any other factor.

    • Leadership Strategies for Building ResiliencyEffective leadership empowers team members, leads proactively, and fosters a positive work environment to build resiliency and enhance team performance.

      Effective leadership plays a crucial role in building resiliency within a team. By giving ownership to team members and allowing them to execute the mission in their way, leaders can foster a sense of engagement and commitment. Additionally, leading on the offensive instead of the defensive can help improve morale and prepare teams for challenges. Lastly, incorporating fun and creating a positive work environment can boost resiliency and help team members better cope with stress and adversity. These leadership strategies, as discussed, have been proven to be effective in various contexts, including military operations and psychological experiments.

    • Impact of Age and Physical Health on Mental Performance in ChessAging and physical decline can impact mental performance in activities like chess, requiring both physical and mental fitness for optimal results.

      Age and physical health can impact mental performance, even in activities that primarily rely on mental abilities, such as chess. Gary Kasparov, a former world chess champion, identified age and physical decline as reasons for his potential loss to younger opponents. Chess, contrary to popular belief, requires significant physical exertion, leading to increased heart rate, breathing, and calorie burn. As people age, cognitive decline becomes a reality for many, and even elite mental performers like Kasparov, who is in his mid-50s, may experience the consequences. This insight can be applied to leadership and other areas where mental agility is crucial, emphasizing the importance of maintaining both physical and mental fitness throughout one's career.

    • Learning from the masters of chess and leadershipStudy successful leaders and apply their strategies to your own situations for valuable insights and improved leadership abilities. Take a step back to assess the bigger picture and consider long-term implications.

      Just as Magnus Carlsen was able to learn and build upon the moves of chess masters before him, we too can learn from the experiences and strategies of effective leaders. The finite nature of chess allows for the accumulation and application of knowledge, but in leadership and life, the infinite possibilities require us to think critically and adapt. By studying the moves of successful leaders and applying their strategies to our own situations, we can gain valuable insights and improve our own leadership abilities. Additionally, it's important to detach from the day-to-day challenges and take a step back to assess the bigger picture and consider the long-term implications of our actions.

    • Watching a game of chess without commentingSilence and respect are crucial for observers to not distract players and allow them to focus on their game.

      Detachment, even in observation, is not as simple as it seems. While we may all see the same chess board and pieces, the players' perspectives and thought processes are unique. Magnus Carlsen, a chess genius, is a prime example of this. Despite his physical detachment from the board, he still makes mistakes due to emotional attachment, pressure, habit, instinct, and intuition. It's easy to assume we know better and offer unsolicited advice, but as observers, we're not in the game. Our inclination to speak can distract from the players' focus and hinder their performance. The ancient Chinese proverb, "A person of high principles is one who can watch an entire game of chess without making a comment," serves as a reminder of the importance of silence and respect for the players' process.

    • Effective listening in leadershipReflect on communication style, strive for better listening skills, and remember effective communication is a two-way street.

      Effective communication in leadership involves listening more than speaking. While it's important to express our thoughts and ideas, it's equally crucial to observe, learn, and listen during team interactions. As the speaker emphasized, the principle of a good leader is to watch the game of chess unfold without commenting unnecessarily. Regretting things we have said often outweighs regretting things we haven't said. Therefore, it's essential to reflect on our communication style and strive for better listening skills. For more insights on leadership, visit efonline.com or echelonfront.com. Remember, effective communication is a two-way street, and listening is just as important as speaking.

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