Podcast Summary
Jordan Peterson's New Book: Beyond Order: Jordan Peterson's new book, Beyond Order, explores the dangers of excess order and the importance of managing social structures, while his earlier book, 12 Rules for Life, addressed the excesses of chaos. Both books complement each other and can be read independently.
Key takeaway from this conversation with Jordan Peterson is that he has published a new book titled "Beyond Order: 12 More Rules For Life," which focuses on the dangers of excess order and the importance of managing social structures and understanding the unknown. Peterson's previous book, "12 Rules for Life," dealt with the excesses of chaos and uncertainty. Both books complement each other and can be read independently. Peterson wrote his earlier book "Maps of Meaning" as an investigation into the motivation for genocide and how it can be avoided, and all of his ideas stem from this work. He found writing to be a protracted form of thinking, and the computer's editing capabilities allowed him to have a long discussion with himself and explore his intellectual limits.
Understanding the complexities of human behavior and the Holocaust: The Holocaust was a unique historical atrocity with specific elements, but it's essential to acknowledge the human nature aspects contributing to it, including genetic predispositions, socialization, and societal structures.
Understanding the complexities of human behavior, particularly in relation to historical atrocities like the Holocaust, requires acknowledging both the unique and common factors at play. While the Holocaust may have had unique elements, such as the bloodcurdling efficiency of the Nazi regime, it's essential not to discount it as a form of psychopathology. Instead, we should strive to understand the human nature aspects that contribute to such events. These aspects may include genetic predispositions that can be suppressed or reinforced by development and environment. For instance, the capacity for genocide may exist in all of us, but proper upbringing and societal structures help keep it in check. Additionally, understanding the role of socialization and societal stability in preventing aggressive behaviors, as seen in chimpanzee border patrols, can provide valuable insights. Ultimately, recognizing the complex interplay of biological and social factors is crucial for preventing the recurrence of such tragedies.
The role of self-awareness and delayed gratification in human social norms: Self-awareness and the ability to delay gratification have shaped human social norms, making behaviors leading to warfare and genocide disgusting and preventing their occurrence.
The development of self-awareness and the ability to delay gratification in human beings have played a crucial role in shaping our social and moral norms, including the disgust towards rape and genocide. However, these norms are not inherent but rather a product of a long developmental history. The awareness of our own fragility and mortality can make us vicious, but it also allows us to understand that causing harm to others will cause harm to us, leading us to establish social norms that regulate behavior and prevent the escalation of conflicts. The comparison between human beings and chimpanzees highlights the importance of socialization and the need to make behaviors leading to warfare and genocide disgusting to prevent their occurrence. In essence, the ability to delay gratification, self-awareness, and the establishment of social norms have worked together to reduce the likelihood of out-of-control destructive behavior.
Understanding Human Uniqueness: Beyond Instincts: Humans have unique traits like consciousness, language, and self-awareness that set us apart from animals, allowing for complex sharing of experiences and understandings.
Humans have unique capacities and motivations that set us apart from animals. While animals exhibit instincts that mimic human behaviors like delayed gratification, humans have the ability to consciously innovate and elaborate on these behaviors. Additionally, humans have self-conscious emotions, such as the understanding of death and the finiteness of life, which are not present to the same degree in animals. These unique human traits, including our capacity for language and consciousness, allow us to share experiences and understandings in a way that goes beyond the individual level. However, understanding these complexities requires looking into darker places, which can be traumatic, but is necessary for gaining a complete understanding of human behavior. It's important to allow those capable of exploring these complexities to do so, without demonizing them, and to recognize the continuity between human and animal consciousness.
The role of human innovation and delayed gratification in our evolutionary success: Human innovation and our ability to delay gratification have led to cumulative culture, enabling us to adapt and compete in various ecological contexts and build complex societies.
Human innovation and the ability to delay gratification have played a significant role in our evolutionary success. Unlike animals, humans have the unique ability to transmit abstract ideas and build on past innovations, leading to cumulative culture. This capacity for cumulative culture has allowed us to adapt and compete in various ecological contexts, ultimately leading to the complex societies we have today. Additionally, beliefs in abstract concepts, such as an afterlife, may have evolved as a way to delay gratification and further adaptation, even if they are metaphorically true but literally false. The blurred lines between truth in a pragmatic sense and truth in an objective sense have been a recurring theme in scientific discussions.
The scientific pursuit of truth as a redemptive fantasy: Our narratives and archetypes, like the hero's journey and redemptive fantasy, shape our understanding of objective reality and morality.
The scientific enterprise and our moral values are deeply intertwined with narratives and archetypes, such as the hero's journey and the redemptive fantasy. These narratives have evolved over time, influenced by our social structures and instincts. For instance, the scientific pursuit of truth can be seen as a redemptive fantasy, driven by the belief that exploring it will benefit us all. Similarly, our morality has evolved to match the behavior that is effective in social hierarchies, and the ideal pattern of behavior that moves us up these hierarchies has taken on religious significance. This idea is not without controversy, but it suggests that our understanding of objective reality is shaped by our narratives and that our perceptions of morality and conscience may be grounded in these patterns of behavior.
The universe favors stability over complexity in life: While genes have historically driven evolution, consciousness and social structures have increasingly shaped gene selection, with a more nuanced approach needed to understand their interplay
The complexity of life, represented by humans, is the pinnacle of the natural world as we know it. However, the universe does not aim for complexity or divine forms, but rather tends towards stability. While it's debatable whether consciousness or genes are in control, it's clear that both have influenced each other throughout evolution. The genes have been the driving force historically, but consciousness has increasingly shaped the selection of genes through social structures like hierarchies. The field of evolutionary biology is divided between two camps: kin selectionists and group selectionists. Both have valid points, but kin selectionists focus too narrowly on the genetic aspect, while group selectionists have identified the importance of group dynamics and cultural evolution. A more nuanced approach, such as lineage selection, which considers individual organisms and their descendants as targets of evolution, can help bridge this gap.
Understanding Human Evolution Beyond Individual Competition: Lineage selection reveals that individuals protect their groups, genes drive evolution, and consciousness and culture allow us to shape our own future
The concept of evolution, particularly in the context of human cultural evolution, is more complex than it may initially seem. While it may appear that individuals are competing for mates or resources within their groups, the larger picture reveals that lineages are actually protecting themselves through the actions of individuals. This perspective, known as lineage selection, is distinct from the group selectionist view and has significant implications for understanding human cooperation and the stability of social structures. Ultimately, genes have been the driving force behind our evolution, but with consciousness and culture, we now have the ability to take control and shape our own destiny, leaving behind programs for destructive behaviors. This shift in perspective allows for a more nuanced and continuous understanding of human evolution.
The complex relationship between consciousness and genes: Consciousness influences gene propagation, but genes also impact consciousness. Both are interconnected and necessary for human survival.
While consciousness and genes are interconnected, it's misleading to view genes as being "in charge" over the long term. Consciousness plays a significant role in selecting which genes propagate, and this doesn't diminish the power of genes. The idea of consciousness making choices for genes is similar to the concept of optimal actions, which are those that help us achieve our goals now without compromising the future. Reciprocity is an example of this, as it's a behavior that sustains itself across time. However, there's a limit to how much consciousness can control genes. For instance, if spiders were to prioritize their own desires over gene propagation, they would fail to pass on their genes, and their lineage would eventually disappear. Therefore, while consciousness can halt genetic evolution, it's a necessary step for human survival. This complex relationship between consciousness and genes represents one of the most challenging puzzles humans have encountered.
Understanding Our Genetic Objective: Humans, like all organisms, have a genetic objective to pass on genes, but we're no longer content with prioritizing this above all else. We must navigate this challenge without giving an advantage to those who cling to this genetic program.
While humans have unique capabilities like consciousness, appreciation for beauty, and compassion, our primary genetic objective is the same as that of all other organisms - to pass on our genes. However, we no longer wish to prioritize this genetic objective above all else. The challenge lies in achieving this without giving an advantage to those who cling to this genetic program. Freud's perspective, with its focus on inhibiting base impulses, has some merit, but our biology is sophisticated enough to integrate these impulses into a reciprocal game. The debate between Freud and Jung may not map directly onto this issue. Human beings have a natural process of inhibiting behaviors, but the way these inhibitions are wielded is becoming increasingly sophisticated. However, this process has served as a means to an end - the genetic one - even if we're not aware of it. We've got to a point where the game that brought us here could be fatal. It's time for us to consciously choose between the amazing and the horrifying aspects of our genetic inheritance.
Channeling evolutionary impulses towards cooperation and competition: Focus on learning to play the best possible games, sublimating impulses, and continuing progress towards improving material well-being for all
Humanity's potential for self-destruction has increased, and it's crucial to channel our evolutionary impulses towards cooperation and competition in productive ways. Capitalism, with its landscape of both competition and cooperation, can be a tool for this. We should acknowledge our darker motivations, but not be consumed by them. Instead, we should focus on learning to play the best possible games, sublimating our impulses, and continuing to make progress towards improving the material well-being of all. While some argue that things are not as dire as they seem, the key is to prioritize and acknowledge the challenges while maintaining a focus on progress. Ultimately, it's within our capability to continue making incremental improvements and finding solutions to the complex issues facing humanity.
Understanding the roles of tyrants and wise kings in society and recognizing the limitations of the Pinker pattern: To extend the pattern of progress, we must shift towards sustainability, adopt long-term thinking, and make difficult decisions for the future, inspired by Buddhist principles.
We need to recognize the importance of both the tyrant and the wise king in understanding the current state of society, but also acknowledge the limitations of the Pinker pattern and the need for a shift towards sustainability and long-term thinking. The ongoing debate between biologists and economists highlights the importance of considering time frames and the potential consequences of our actions on the planet. The loss of traditional mythology and its replacement with inadequate ideologies has led to a lack of understanding of the roles these beliefs once played in guiding our actions. To extend the pattern of progress indefinitely, we must take the genes out of the driver's seat and adopt a Buddhist approach to long-term well-being, focusing on sustainability and iterability. This will require making difficult decisions in the present for the sake of the future, but it is necessary to ensure the survival of our society and planet.
The current approach to progress is unsustainable: We need to find new ways to motivate and reward productivity without resorting to punishment or authoritarianism to create a sustainable society
Our current approach to progress and improvement is unsustainable and potentially harmful. We've replaced outdated structures with ones that won't work, and we've hit a point where material wealth no longer drives motivation for many people. The attempt to create a utopian society through force and punishment, as seen in Marxist systems, is an unplayable game that leads to authoritarianism and starvation. Instead, we need to create a steady state where we don't degrade the planet but give people the sensation of growth. This requires understanding that the limits of our current system necessitate a revolution in the way we sustain ourselves. We must find new ways to motivate and reward productivity without resorting to punishment or authoritarianism. Game theorists would call this a sustainable game, and it's the voice of conscience guiding us towards it.
Forcing equality of outcome is not desirable or just: A system that rewards merit and allows for unequal outcomes is more desirable than one that enforces equality of outcome, as it encourages individual growth and contributes to collective well-being.
A system that enforces equality of outcome, while well-intentioned, is not desirable or just. Instead, a system that rewards individuals for contributing to collective well-being and allows for unequal outcomes based on merit is more desirable. This system allows for the creation of wealth through exchange, which inherently requires inequality, and encourages individuals to develop unique skills and talents to better themselves and contribute to society. Forcing equality, on the other hand, punishes individuals for their best qualities and deprives everyone of the opportunity to benefit from each other's unique contributions. The pursuit of diversity and equality of outcome are not logically compatible, and the exchange of goods and services is essential for our collective well-being.
Evaluating objectives for personal growth and meaning: Incentives for personal growth and meaning are crucial for maintaining a high quality of living and continued growth. Absence of such incentives can lead to undesirable outcomes. Understanding and addressing underlying human needs and motivations may provide solutions.
In order to maintain a high quality of living and continued growth in the coming centuries, it's essential to reevaluate the objectives of our systems to provide individuals with the necessary incentives for personal growth and meaning. The absence of such incentives can lead to undesirable outcomes, such as authoritarianism or ineffectiveness. Previous examples, like the scarcity of sexual relationships before widely available birth control, demonstrate how such structures can create motivations for individuals to contribute positively to society. However, in today's world, the absence of clear incentives can lead individuals to spend their time unproductively, such as playing video games. To navigate this increasingly complex landscape, it's crucial to pay closer attention to the voice of conscience and recognize the importance of the individual in finding solutions. While addressing societal inequities and government action are necessary, they may not be the primary focus at the moment, as the answers we seek might lie in understanding and addressing the underlying human needs and motivations.
The adaptive function of religious belief vs spandrels in evolution: Human religious belief, though costly, has significant historical adaptive purposes. Personal responsibility is crucial in overcoming societal challenges.
The discussion revolved around the debate between the adaptive function of religious belief in human beings and the concept of spandrels in evolutionary biology. The spandrel argument, which was used to challenge the claim that every trait in an organism has a function, was criticized as a red herring. The speakers agreed that human religious belief, despite its costs, must have served some significant adaptive purpose historically due to its prevalence in every important civilization. Another key point raised in the conversation was the importance of personal responsibility in the face of societal challenges. Despite the existence of unfair systems, individuals have the power to make the best of their situation and maximize their potential, making the investment in personal growth and development a more fruitful endeavor than focusing on the broken system itself.
Personal responsibility and ethical behavior: Focusing on personal growth and ethical actions can lead to long-term success despite an unfair system.
Focusing on personal responsibility and ethical behavior, rather than solely complaining about the unfairness of the system, is a more effective approach for individuals to improve their situation and potentially create positive change. While it's understandable that the system may be unfair, investing in personal competence and ethical behavior can lead to long-term success and minimize the negative impact on others. However, it's important to note that this doesn't mean that individuals should accept a zero-sum game or exploit others. Instead, they should aim to play the game fairly and ethically, with the goal of benefiting themselves and those around them. Ultimately, this approach has the best chance of minimizing the negative consequences of the system's inherent breach of contract.
War on Competence: Undermining Personal Growth and Societal Progress: The belief that meritocracy is corrupt and the devaluation of competence can damage individuals and hinder societal progress. It's essential to address power-based inequality while also investing in personal competence and democratizing tools for everyone.
The culture war is rooted in an attack on the value of competence itself. This assault on competence stems from the belief that meritocracy is corrupt and that the idea of a merit-based hierarchy flies in the face of equality. The closure of gifted programs, for instance, could be seen as an attempt to undermine competence rather than rectify racial inequality. This war on competence is problematic because it damages individuals' minds and hinders societal progress. While it's essential to address power-based inequality, it's equally important to invest in personal competence and democratize tools for everyone. The rise of this war on competence is complex, and it's unclear if external forces are fueling it. However, the consequences of this devaluation of competence could be detrimental, potentially leaving us vulnerable to those who care less about freedom and justice. It's crucial to recognize this trend and work towards restoring the value of competence in our society.
Navigating the complexities of information reliability: Stay informed but be cautious of sources, understand motivations behind disinformation, and remain open-minded while being critical of information.
Navigating the reliability of information in today's world can be challenging, especially when dealing with sensitive topics and potential biases. The speaker expresses concerns about the trustworthiness of sources, the impact of negative feedback, and the potential for manipulation through disinformation. They also discuss the issue of sampling bias and the difficulty of analyzing data when algorithms are constantly changing. Furthermore, they touch upon the complex relationship between evidence, merit, and accusations of racism or white supremacy. Ultimately, the speaker emphasizes the importance of calibrating information, understanding the motivations behind disinformation, and remaining open-minded while being critical of sources.
The pervasive influence of movements and ideologies in various institutions: Concerns about control of resources, stifling of dissent, censorship, and policing of viewpoints are on the rise. The removal of controversial figures or works from public discourse is a concerning development, and it's essential to recognize human flaws and continue the ongoing process of growth and understanding.
The influence of a particular movement or ideology seems pervasive in various institutions, including education, corporations, tech platforms, and the Democratic Party. This raises concerns about the potential control of resources and the stifling of dissenting viewpoints. The situation appears to be worsening, with an increasing number of exceptions being the only sources of resistance. The censorship and policing of viewpoints are also becoming more prevalent, making it necessary for parallel institutions to emerge. The removal of controversial figures or works from public discourse, such as the recent incident with Dr. Seuss, is a concerning development. It's essential to recognize that human beings, including creative individuals, are flawed, and we have progressed in acknowledging and addressing past mistakes. However, punishing individuals from the past for not adhering to modern standards is absurd and counterproductive. We must strive to learn from history and continue the ongoing process of growth and understanding.
Understanding the importance of order in our lives: Jordan Peterson's new book 'Beyond Order' emphasizes personal responsibility and meaning in actions, moving beyond mere obedience to rules. Available March 2nd, 2023.
Learning from this conversation with Jordan Peterson is the importance of understanding the value of order in our lives. Peterson's new book, "Beyond Order," emphasizes the need to go beyond mere obedience to rules and instead strive for personal responsibility and meaning in our actions. The book, which is currently number 1 in Australia and potentially other countries, is available as of March 2nd, 2023. Peterson clarified that the title does not mean to destroy order, but rather to move beyond it. Overall, this conversation highlights the significance of personal growth, responsibility, and the importance of understanding the role of order in our lives. I highly recommend picking up a copy of "Beyond Order" to delve deeper into these ideas.
